The Last Jedi - General Film Discussion Thread

[Prequellover]

I mean the character, not his playstyle.

 

[YavinTemplePilot]

The characterization in the campaign was perfect. I’m talking about the abilities of the character in multiplayer.

 

[Masterfett]

Not really if you consider that people were already drawing conclusions as to DJ's character being Boba Fett, as well.

I think the reason for this was that article in the magazine though, where he had a crate with the supposed armor in it.
Otherwise most of use were just expecting him to be just some new guy. So it's not all on "us".

 

[Darth_Sceptaurus]

Didn't mean to imply it was on anybody, and I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, sorry. Just making a comparison

 

[Bothan42]

My favorite part of the movie is the idea of destruction it presented.

Luke talking about the Jedi needing to end....

Then Kylo telling Rey to destroy the past, the Jedi, the sith, who cares.

That to me was interesting. Star Wars has been creatively bankrupt for 34 years. As a franchise I am completely ready for them to burn the status quo to the ground. Yet everyone seems to just want more of Luke han and Leia. They are great, don't get me wrong. But there story is well over.

When I see people complain about how this movie destroyed star wars I say good. My problem is this movie didn't go far enough. It was close, so close...then it backed away from the edge. It fell into the status quo again.

I hoped to see something truly daring. John wick 2 stuff. Or Farscape.

Right before I went into the movie I turned to my friends and in a half joking manner I said I hope every main character dies. Can you imagine? People are freaking out over Luke just imagine how amazing it would have been for all the mains die. Gimmicky, maybe but it would have been amazing.

But alas, this is a story for children. Somewhere along the line we lost track of that and took a weird personal ownership of this thing.

I love star wars. Always will. But I don't have to like all of it.

I completely agree that Star Wars needs to change but this movie does nothing to change the series. The movie ends with all of the characters in the same position that they were in to start the movie (except for Ren) and teases an ongoing rebels vs empire war that we’ve already seen. The movie was also largely a remake of The Empire Strikes Back with a little bit of Return of the Jedi thrown in. If you’re going to kill the past then kill it.

 

[HothHan]

I completely agree that Star Wars needs to change but this movie does nothing to change the series. The movie ends with all of the characters in the same position that they were in to start the movie (except for Ren) and teases an ongoing rebels vs empire war that we’ve already seen. The movie was also largely a remake of The Empire Strikes Back with a little bit of Return of the Jedi thrown in. If you’re going to kill the past then kill it.

That right there is one of biggest peeves about the movie. Everyone who loved it is convinced it was sort of revolutionary change to Star Wars for the better. It's actually a badly done retelling of ESB with some shots stolen from ROTJ.

 

[Masterfett]

That's a big peeve of mine, it totally sets up a new era of Rebels versus Imperial. Been there done that. Even if you're targeting a newer audience, the chances of them knowing this dynamic already existed in the OT is pretty good. Even if they haven't watched all three. And while I'm not the biggest fan of the Vong, it might have offered a better avenue to tell something different. Totally different. Though I do get the difficulty of trying to come up with a good versus bad story line that feels fresh/new to the audience.

 

[YavinTemplePilot]

That’s what I’ve been thinking, if they went the way of the Vong, they would have to water them down to be more palatable. If they did that then it would just be generic and feel too much like Star Trek or Guardians of the Galaxy.

I guess if they really wanted to bring Snoke in they could have mirrored the prequels more closely with some Vong influence. Say taking out the empire left a power vacuum that allowed someone like Snoke to create some sort of super soldier/droid/alien clone army or something that seemed like it could have even been a threat to the empire. I liked the idea that Palpatine was amassing power because he knew something was coming that needed to be stopped. Of course this would have to be out of self preservation rather than altruism.

Idk, I think the FO should have been something started to challenge the empire not to clone it. As it stands the sequels are more of a soft reboot than true sequels. The logic doesn’t flow from the OT at all. I’m treating them as though they are disconnected.

 

[DarkManX]

Only thing I can think of offhand that would've been good villains is if the pirates/hutts/etc joined together to fill the power void. Frankly I don't envy the task of trying to come up with a completely new threat that can be iconic.

 

[VideoViper]

Since I doubt we will see the Vong. (To much like a whitewalker rip anyways)

My vote goes to generic Blue skin race (In this case Thrawn's race although you see them in a lot of sci fi series voltron starblazers etc) Let them take the role of the Vong, kick the ***** of both 1st order/empire & rebels & let that be the bases of the next trilogy.

 

[Masterfett]

That's why i was really hoping the Villain would have been Thrawn. He makes the most sense in the scenario they did, someone who fills the power vacuum but interesting. Someone who is also already connected to those elements. Bringing in Snoke and essentially rebooting the two sides just seems very well lazy and easy.

 

[YavinTemplePilot]

Speaking of easy, apparently Rian Johnson wrote Rey’s parents to be nobodies because he wanted to write what would be hardest for her to hear. Why not write what’s interesting or what makes the best story? In this particular instance I don’t care but I think this statement is indicative of how he creates stories in general. Rather than using logic and cohesive stories I think he looks at each scene and says, “what would be the most shocking thing we can do in this scene?”

Its an incredibly myopic way to make a film that has to fit in with 8 other films in the franchise. The end result is so many twists and “shocks” that you lose them in the mayhem. You become desensitize by what Johnson thinks will be shocking because he wanted everything to be shocking. And since he focused on misdirecting us in every scene we end up with a bunch of incoherent and suspension of disbelieve breaking scenes that last nearly 3 hours and doesn’t fit in with the overarching themes and logic of the saga as a whole.

 

[Internets]

Speaking of easy, apparently Rian Johnson wrote Rey’s parents to be nobodies because he wanted to write what would be hardest for her to hear. Why not write what’s interesting or what makes the best story?

Presenting your characters with the tough obstacles is exactly how you write an interesting and 'best' stories : /

Literally every other option for Rey's parents is terrible fan-fiction levels of awful. Her being a 'nobody' is absolutely the least worst option.

 

[YavinTemplePilot]

Presenting your characters with the tough obstacles is exactly how you write an interesting and 'best' stories : /

Literally every other option for Rey's parents is terrible fan-fiction levels of awful. Her being a 'nobody' is absolutely the least worst option.

You didn’t bother to read past the first two sentences did you? Rey being a nobody isn’t the best option for her, the best would be that she not be romantically interested in a murderer and that she somehow be tied to Kylo in a way that makes her feel like she shares his darkness. Instead she is good simply, because, and she is powerful simply, because.

All of that flies in the face of the previous 6 films where even even the most powerful force users had to be discovered rather than just figuring **** out because it moves the plot forward. TLJ’s logic only makes sense if you ignore all of what Star Wars films have been for the last 40 years. It’s insulting.

 

[Internets]

TLJ’s logic only makes sense if you ignore all of what Star Wars films have been for the last 40 years.

Do that then, if it helps : )

 

[YavinTemplePilot]

Do that then, if it helps : )

Unlike some fanboys I don’t feel a need to like a movie that I didn’t enjoy.

 

[Internets]

The only need I feel is a need... a need for speed.

*Take My Breath Away starts playing*

 

[DarkArtist]

Unlike some fanboys I don’t feel a need to like a movie that I didn’t enjoy.

I agree with you YTP... not everyone has to enjoy a film for the same reasons.. I actually enjoyed TLJ for the most part but felt that certain things were off or lack luster... was it my favorite of the series... no but it is in my top 5

 

[YavinTemplePilot]

I agree with you YTP... not everyone has to enjoy a film for the same reasons.. I actually enjoyed TLJ for the most part but felt that certain things were off or lack luster... was it my favorite of the series... no but it is in my top 5

Thanks for not being another person trying to convince me to like it.

For me, even if I remove my lifetime of being a fan of Star Wars, I can’t say I enjoyed TLJ. The bad humor up front and throughout and odd pacing as well as what they chose to spend their time on. I felt like I was waiting through the whole movie for some punches to start landing and they never did. I had the same experience with TFA.

I liken it to when you’re watching a particularly boring episode of a good TV series and then with 10 minutes left to go you realize the “interesting” or “fun” parts have already happened and they weren’t interesting or fun. Then you start to think, this is it, nothing can redeem this episode, maybe the next one will give me th me payoff this one felt like it was building too.

That marketing tactic worked on me with TFA in that I assumed a whole movie dedicated to finding Luke Skywalker would give us a really great Luke Skywalker film, even though I didn’t enjoy TFA. About two hours in I started to realize TLJ wasn’t going to payoff anything from TFA or itself.

Ultimately I realized that I’d invested nearly 5 hours into the sequels and most of those 5 hours were building up to something that never happened. What I was left with was a bunch of scenes of Kylo Ren and Rey having tea parties, Rey looking at a mirror, Luke milking a sea cow, space horses, an imaginary Jedi, and bad CGI rocks.

 

[DarkArtist]

Thanks for not being another person trying to convince me to like it.

For me, even if I remove my lifetime of being a fan of Star Wars, I can’t say I enjoyed TLJ. The bad humor up front and throughout and odd pacing as well as what they chose to spend their time on. I felt like I was waiting through the whole movie for some punches to start landing and they never did. I had the same experience with TFA.

I liken it to when you’re watching a particularly boring episode of a good TV series and then with 10 minutes left to go you realize the “interesting” or “fun” parts have already happened and they weren’t interesting or fun. Then you start to think, this is it, nothing can redeem this episode, maybe the next one will give me th me payoff this one felt like it was building too.

That marketing tactic worked on me with TFA in that I assumed a whole movie dedicated to finding Luke Skywalker would give us a really great Luke Skywalker film, even though I didn’t enjoy TFA. About two hours in I started to realize TLJ wasn’t going to payoff anything from TFA or itself.

Ultimately I realized that I’d invested nearly 5 hours into the sequels and most of those 5 hours were building up to something that never happened. What I was left with was a bunch of scenes of Kylo Ren and Rey having tea parties, Rey looking at a mirror, Luke milking a sea cow, space horses, an imaginary Jedi, and bad CGI rocks.

Kylo Ren and Rey having tea parties LOL.. yeah the milking of the sea cow was not needed at all, the Canto Bight scene was meh at best (as was the love arc of Finn and Rose), the imaginary Jedi at the end was cool to me but my heart was broken seeing Luke collapse at the end and disappear.. I left the theater with a WTF look on my face as well as a tear.. I felt like my hero really died in real life.

 

[YavinTemplePilot]

Kylo Ren and Rey having tea parties LOL.. yeah the milking of the sea cow was not needed at all, the Canto Bight scene was meh at best (as was the love arc of Finn and Rose), the imaginary Jedi at the end was cool to me but my heart was broken seeing Luke collapse at the end and disappear.. I left the theater with a WTF look on my face as well as a tear.. I felt like my hero really died in real life.

I wanted to feel that way at the end but the character is so removed from the one I grew up with that it didn’t really feel like I lost Luke Skywalker, it was Jake that died.

I just read an article that basically said that so much of the criticism of the film is from male rights activists that it can all be ignored. The editor continued to write, “They want the past back, just like a certain other angry white guy who is portrayed as a somewhat pathetic figure in the films.”

As inaccurate as that stupid sentence is, I should have never had to read that about Luke Skywalker. Disney has turned Luke into an allegory for WASPs in modern America, disgruntled, shut in, useless, waiting to die while a heroine saves the day. It infuriates me, I won’t give in to my anger though, because that’s what the real Luke Skywalker taught me.

I am a feminist, I studied philosophy in college. Bastardizing male characters with a rich history to make female characters look good is not feminism. Look at Mad Max Fury Road, that’s feminism in a sci-fi or action movie, equality not just in how crucial they are to the plot or success of the heroes, but they’re also treated as full people deserving of respect.

Contrast that with Poe and Finn being rabid dogs that need to be reigned in by women, Ackbar dying offscreen, Luke being useless and getting attacked rather violently by who we’re supposed to consider a hero? Rey straight up hits an old man in the back of the head because her space boyfriend told her a different version of the same story. Could we imagine Luke kicking Yoda because he didn’t tell him Vader was his Dad? Why are we supposed to treat that as acceptable behavior from either of them? Because Rey is good. Why? Because.

There has been inequity in film for over a hundred years, men portrayed as heroes while women are useless and need saving. It is time for that to end, but creating the opposite of that is not feminism or justice, it’s just as wrong as the last 100+ years of film. Disney could have given the OT heroes good send offs and let them pass the torch, instead they killed both of the male leads in embarrassing fashion. That’s not my biggest complaint against the films, but it is a complaint.

I hope that no one thinks I’m simply a reactionary. I consider myself progressive, ideologically I agree with every message in TLJ, anti-war, anti-unchecked capitalism, pro-animal rights, feminist. Unfortunately the way Disney has decided to get all of these messages across is regressive and just creates more division. Far left hails it as visionary, far right says its feminazi propaganda. The rest of us are left to make what we can out of it, for me, I didn’t enjoy it as a film and especially don’t like how it fits with other Star Wars films.

 

[bob_solo]

The worst part of all this feminist stuff is that, of all movies to make a big deal out of its inclusion, they pick Star Wars. Apparently Kathleen Kennedy and everyone else overly hyping it forgot that Princess Leia was always strong, always a leader, and yet still loved by men and women equally. And who was the original number one leader of the Rebellion - that's right, Mon Mothma! No one complained about that! Beru Lars - she stood up to Owen about Luke's treatment way back in '77, and no one cared. And speaking of strong female characters in Star Wars, the prequels would show us exactly where Leia gets her personality from, and that was from Padme, another strong female. But unlike Disney's vision, Lucas's movies had the males and females as equals, and few, if anyone, had issues with that either. And the best part of it - no one had to hype it! You had characters girls and boys alike could look up to, just because they were who they were. What's happening now is just plain sad and totally unnecessary.

 

[JynForce]

YavinTemplePilot- I think you really hit the nail on the head here, at least for me. I don't like to get too political, and I consider myself to be in the middle, neither liberal or conservative (Like DJ, don't join hahaha). Anyways, I love the new female characters, mainly Jyn and Rey. However I do agree that they are going out of there way with Rey especially to make her superior than everyone else. Which okay, she's the hero, that's cool. But the plot with Holdo and Poe is what kinda annoyed me a little. Poe is made to look like a fool, while Holdo is supposed to have been doing the right, "smart" thing all along.... I definitely agree that making strong female characters should not be at the expense of good male characters as well. Most of my complaints with TLJ weren't so much about the politics, but it can get quite annoying when Rian Johnson and co. give themselves a pat on the back for all these far-left progressive plot points.... last time I checked Johnson was a white dude himself so why make them all evil or look like fools in his movie? Idk I try not to let it bother me, but sometimes, honestly it does. There's just too much talk about it (gender, race, etc.)

 

[HothHan]

The worst part of all this feminist stuff is that, of all movies to make a big deal out of its inclusion, they pick Star Wars. Apparently Kathleen Kennedy and everyone else overly hyping it forgot that Princess Leia was always strong, always a leader, and yet still loved by men and women equally. And who was the original number one leader of the Rebellion - that's right, Mon Mothma! No one complained about that! Beru Lars - she stood up to Owen about Luke's treatment way back in '77, and no one cared. And speaking of strong female characters in Star Wars, the prequels would show us exactly where Leia gets her personality from, and that was from Padme, another strong female. But unlike Disney's vision, Lucas's movies had the males and females as equals, and few, if anyone, had issues with that either. And the best part of it - no one had to hype it! You had characters girls and boys alike could look up to, just because they were who they were. What's happening now is just plain sad and totally unnecessary.

This. 100% this.

 

[YavinTemplePilot]

The worst part of all this feminist stuff is that, of all movies to make a big deal out of its inclusion, they pick Star Wars. Apparently Kathleen Kennedy and everyone else overly hyping it forgot that Princess Leia was always strong, always a leader, and yet still loved by men and women equally. And who was the original number one leader of the Rebellion - that's right, Mon Mothma! No one complained about that! Beru Lars - she stood up to Owen about Luke's treatment way back in '77, and no one cared. And speaking of strong female characters in Star Wars, the prequels would show us exactly where Leia gets her personality from, and that was from Padme, another strong female. But unlike Disney's vision, Lucas's movies had the males and females as equals, and few, if anyone, had issues with that either. And the best part of it - no one had to hype it! You had characters girls and boys alike could look up to, just because they were who they were. What's happening now is just plain sad and totally unnecessary.

I couldn’t agree more. They could have easily had a female Jedi protagonist, which is the only thing the OT and PT lacked, without ruining the OT and PT protagonists. It’s like equality wasn’t good enough, they wanted revenge. As a whole, Star Wars has underrepresented women historically, but the ones it has featured have always been ******es that could match any of the men. Leia was just as much of a part of their success as Han.

 

[Sturm86]

I am a feminist, I studied philosophy in college. Bastardizing male characters with a rich history to make female characters look good is not feminism. Look at Mad Max Fury Road, that’s feminism in a sci-fi or action movie, equality not just in how crucial they are to the plot or success of the heroes, but they’re also treated as full people deserving of respect.

This is well said!



The last thing I'll say about TLJ (after having watched it 4 times) is that besides all the other things one might dislike or like about TLJ, I personally think the thing that ruins the film the most is the lack of continuity with TFA and how everything that was building the storyline in TFA is either deconstructed... or totally ignored. A trilogy has to have substance, and the 3 movies has to be tied together, it can't be done if you let different realisator do what they want and reboot everything with each film.

If the very same movie was a stand alone film, without anything regarding the Skywalker family or the storyline of TFA, I probably would have enjoyed it better. You made the parallel with Mad Max : I dislked Mad Max 2 and 3 because in my opinion they didn't catch the essence of the first movie really well, but I have loved Fury Road as it immediately starts with the action and it does its own thing without having to explain or tie things together.

 

[HothHan]

This is well said!



The last thing I'll say about TLJ (after having watched it 4 times) is that besides all the other things one might dislike or like about TLJ, I personally think the thing that ruins the film the most is the lack of continuity with TFA and how everything that was building the storyline in TFA is either deconstructed... or totally ignored. A trilogy has to have substance, and the 3 movies has to be tied together, it can't be done if you let different realisator do what they want and reboot everything with each film.

If the very same movie was a stand alone film, without anything regarding the Skywalker family or the storyline of TFA, I probably would have enjoyed it better. You made the parallel with Mad Max : I dislked Mad Max 2 and 3 because in my opinion they didn't catch the essence of the first movie really well, but I have loved Fury Road as it immediately starts with the action and it does its own thing without having to explain or tie things together.

That right there is my biggest problem with the whole thing. The feminism, social agenda stuff, assassination of Luke's character etc etc etc...all terrible. The biggest offense was not acknowledging TFA, whether you like it or not, came before it. I guess in this world of millennials with a 6 second attention span it really doesn't matter if a film from 2 years ago that that set everything up is just ignored.

 

[Internets]

The editor continued to write, “They want the past back, just like a certain other angry white guy who is portrayed as a somewhat pathetic figure in the films.”

As inaccurate as that stupid sentence is, I should have never had to read that about Luke Skywalker.

It's referring to Kylo.

 

[YavinTemplePilot]

It's referring to Kylo.

Uh... Kylo explicitly says to kill the past, plus look at his well conditioned hair, he’s just a diamond in the rough that needs a big strong independent woman to come along and fix him.

Remember, we’re making up for lost time here.

 

[Internets]

Kylo's all about wanting the past back in TFA and the start of TLJ. And right below that line in the article is a massive picture of Kylo.

 

[YavinTemplePilot]

Maybe they are talking about Kylo is the past is the empire, perhaps, but he explicitly says, “The Empire, your parents, the Resistance, the Sith, the Jedi... let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That's the only way to become what you are meant to be.”

 

[Darth_Sceptaurus]

If it seems transparent, it probably is. What I mean is the way they are obviously going out of their way to push feminism, equality and everything. I am all for it, but yes it is very blatant in the ST and adds nothing to the movie. My wife actually said she can't find anything about Rey to like. And this is the character who is supposed to get more girls into SW, or whatever? I always liked Rey but I do see the point in that it's hard to describe anything compelling about her character itself. Yeah I love the new movies, but probably because I don't really think about that stuff when watching them. Without getting too political, I would say they're probably trying to push an agenda with the goal of division rather than unity as they would want to make it seem. Be blatant about it so it seems even stupider to those on the opposite end of the coin, and what do you get? A bunch of people arguing amongst themselves and being distracted from the real problem.

 

[PotatoFighter]

If it seems transparent, it probably is. What I mean is the way they are obviously going out of their way to push feminism, equality and everything. I am all for it, but yes it is very blatant in the ST and adds nothing to the movie. My wife actually said she can't find anything about Rey to like. And this is the character who is supposed to get more girls into SW, or whatever? I always liked Rey but I do see the point in that it's hard to describe anything compelling about her character itself. Yeah I love the new movies, but probably because I don't really think about that stuff when watching them. Without getting too political, I would say they're probably trying to push an agenda with the goal of division rather than unity as they would want to make it seem. Be blatant about it so it seems even stupider to those on the opposite end of the coin, and what do you get? A bunch of people arguing amongst themselves and being distracted from the real problem.

Upon a second viewing of the film, I definitely agree with this statement.

 

[PotatoFighter]

Has anyone noticed how literally nobody gave two flips about Han Solo dying?

Nobody batted an eye.

 

[indysolo007]

They sent mixed messages about Han. He was a heroic character that Rey had heard of through legend. He was also the guy who abandoned everyone to go back to smuggling. Leia was definitely upset but didn’t think to console Chewbacca.

When i started seeing behind the scenes footage of people dressed in black I assumed it was Han’s funeral, but no, that was Canto Bight. The sequels lack any real emotion.

 

[DarkArtist]

I'm sure we will get a novel that has details about Han's funeral and stuff... but yeah I was kinda shocked myself that this wasn't really bought up in TLJ... I mean we get the concern from Luke in asking about Han but that's it. so I guess Chewie and Rey filled in Luke about what happened. and then we get Luke again telling Kylo that he will always be somewhat haunted by what he did to his father.

 

[Internets]

Has anyone noticed how literally nobody gave two flips about Han Solo dying?

Nobody batted an eye.

We don't know how much time has passed between TFA and TLJ. It's implied not much (maybe a few hours) but enough to imagine a "Han's dead, mourn later, let's get out of here" speech from Leia.

 

[Darth_Sceptaurus]

Funny because the sequence with Rey and Luke picks up right where it left off, and yet for everyone else time seems to have passed. Maybe all this jumping back and forth through hyperspace is messing up the space-time continuum or something.

 

[YavinTemplePilot]

Funny because the sequence with Rey and Luke picks up right where it left off, and yet for everyone else time seems to have passed. Maybe all this jumping back and forth through hyperspace is messing up the space-time continuum or something.

They never really address how long hyperspace travel takes. Everything setting up the opening battle could have happened while Rey was traveling to see Luke.

I agree with the others ITT that these films don’t know how to deal with emotion.

 

[R1G4R3PO]

Has anyone noticed how literally nobody gave two flips about Han Solo dying?

Nobody batted an eye.

Same as in ANH when Leia arrived at Yavin base and she said no time for sorrows in regards to Alderaan