The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" debate

[Joshua_A]

I don't expect he will come forward. He's always been a man of few words. I imagine he's hiding the evidence right now and trying to cover things up. His buying account is now private with none of the feedback showing.

He has also changed his eBay ID 30 times! Not the behaviour of a man with nothing to hide. Olisuds

Seriously. If this does not convince you now that there is something VERY dodgy up, then nothing will.

It shows Toni has been reading the threads on various forums and is now trying to cover up. Why else all of a sudden make your buying account private? Think about it. Especially now. Why hide it all of a sudden? At a time when you should be being as transparent as possible. Doesn't make sense at all.

I am afraid his changing his account to private and the fact this BUYING account has also had it's user id changed not once, or twice, but 30 times over the years, is just too much like someone trying to cover things up too me. o-o I mean has Shaun. N even changed his eBay id that many times before? I don't reckon even he has.

 

[ronsalvatore]

A lot of people on SWFUK and here seem to be misunderstanding my point on this matter. I am not for one second saying that it doesn't matter, or that is isn't wrong. My point is that it's either virtually or literally impossible to prove either way without an admission.

A heat seal is a heat seal. It doesn't matter whether it was done in 1982 or 2013, if ORIGINAL materials are used (bubble, card, figure) then NOBODY, not even your beloved AFA, can say with any certainty when that heat seal was made. There is no glue involved, it's just heat applied to the plastic.

It's not like fake gold or silver where a scientist can test it chemically. We've already established that the card, bubble and figure are likely original. So I'm sorry to say guys, whether you like it or not this story definitely is possible and if admitted to there will be nothing to distinguish these from genuine ones.

I agree with Edd on this.

If it's really true that these were created with all-original components, and there's no way to distinguish an original '80s-carded example from a '90s-carded example, then it's probably in everyone's best interest to simply forget about the whole thing. I know some people won't accept that, but it's better than driving yourself crazy.

The only other options are to 1) never buy a Palitoy figure from this era, or 2) buy only examples that you feel reasonably sure were not part of this supposed scam. Since the second option rules out buying mint, case-fresh-looking examples, I'm not sure it's worth pursuing.

 

[Joshua_A]

Yup. Not sure how AFA or UKG are at fault either for grading such pieces.

 

[ronsalvatore]

If tomorrow someone were to tell me that, sometime in '83, a dealer got a hold of original 12-back cards, original bubbles, and original figures, and used them to make minty 12-backs, and that these '83 12-backs are impossible to tell from an original, and that that meant that some of the 12-backs I have in my collection might not be legitimate '70s examples, my response would probably be to shrug my shoulders and say, "Cool story, bro." Because what is the other option?

 

[Joshua_A]

We have a massive MOC burning. A pile as high as the eye can see. We can all dance around it and chant into the night.
Just saying. ha ha!

 

[BrianM]

If tomorrow someone were to tell me that, sometime in '83, a dealer got a hold of original 12-back cards, original bubbles, and original figures, and used them to make minty 12-backs, and that these '83 12-backs are impossible to tell from an original, and that that meant that some of the 12-backs I have in my collection might not be legitimate '70s examples, my response would probably be to shrug my shoulders and say, "Cool story, bro." Because what is the other option?

What if someone told you that some of your hardcopies were made from original Kenner molds using the the period-correct polymer (green dynacast or carbalon etc) and they were indistinguishable? Or if someone found some correct bubbles and used double sided tape to make some mock-ups with their proof cards?

It takes me back to my original issue with Edd's argument...it just feels too much like saying "if a fake is good enough, it doesn't matter." just throw your hands up and walk away?

Maybe that's all that can be done in this situation, but man, it rubs me wrong.

 

[Joshua_A]

If the are still being made right now would you be not concerned? Because that's pretty scary if you think about it. I think that's worse than getting them all done back in the 90's. Back then I could understand the thinking behind it.

 

[Joshua_A]

If this is all true. I think one of the other options, which was in the process of happening before Toni made his eBAy account private, was/is seeing what he has been selling and what he has been buying figure wise and try and work out which would be the affected combinations. Obviously anything that looks like it definitely has come out of a shop should be okay. Or from a source that has had no ties with Toni whatsoever. Which would obviously have to include provenance that shows as such.
It's messy but in NO way should these be considered legit if they aren't. Heck. I would rather he come out with it and start selling unused card backs. This is something that was a good idea at the time to turn something that was practically worthless into something viable. It sounds like people knew about it back then. This is the days before the internet so it's not surprising most collectors hadn't heard of it happening and the few who had were the diehards who were around back then. It was lost with time and now it has caught up with him.

 

[ronsalvatore]

What if someone told you that some of your hardcopies were made from original Kenner molds using the the period-correct polymer (green dynacast or carbalon etc) and they were indistinguishable?

If they were truly indistinguishable from originals -- which, given the extremely limited provenance where hardcopies are concerned, is highly unlikely -- I would either destroy and/or sell my entire prototype collection, and never again collect that stuff, or I would simply forget about it and move on.

This is a bad example, though, because virtually all of my hardcopies were purchased directly from the original sources. Better to stick to regular production items that have been out in the collectibles market.

 

[Joshua_A]

Why would you destroy it all? Surely just the pieces in question you would take to with a hammer?

 

[ronsalvatore]

Why would you destroy it all? Surely just the pieces in question you would take to with a hammer?

I was operating on the assumption that all of the pieces were called into suspicion.

I think the point Edd is making, and that I'm adding to, is that, given a situation in which no one can tell the real from the fake, the whole is it real?/is it fake? argument becomes moot. Because it can never be resolved. It's Matrix all the way down, baby! So you either accept it for what it is, or you drop out of collecting that stuff altogether.

Seems to me that more people would be happy just forgetting about it.

 

[Joshua_A]

 

[Joshua_A]

Operating under the assumption only some are and regardless of how well made and indistinguishable they were. If you knew those particular pieces were in fact dodgy, it was proven they were made later, you would just remove the offending pieces wouldn't you? Life still can go on. Certainly no need to freak out and assume everything out there has had the same thing done to it. You only scrutinize something when and if information comes to light. Otherwise it's carry on as normal.

 

[AussieFortuna]

LOL so as it turns out, this Arthur guy that the cards and bubbles were originally bought from happens to have died a few years back, god bless him.....
The way i see it, to spice the whole affair up, maybe we shouldnt count out a hit man knocking him off because he knew too much, lol, why dont we throw a murder in the mix here, LOLL (joking)

 

[BrianM]

This is a bad example, though, because virtually all of my hardcopies were purchased directly from the original sources. Better to stick to regular production items that have been out in the collectibles market.

Unless the original source made them in 1987 or 1988. :disgusted:

 

[JohnA]

LOL so as it turns out, this Arthur guy that the cards and bubbles were originally bought from happens to have died a few years back, god bless him.....

Yeah, didn't he first say he hadn't talked to him in like 10 years? He also made it seem like he didn't know him well at all. Then it comes out they were in business together. Now, he's dead? Shouldn't that tidbit come out at the beginning?? Makes me think of Pablo Artesi, who died, and didn't BillyBoy die too? Funny how they all die.

John

 

[AussieFortuna]

Yeah, didn't he first say he hadn't talked to him in like 10 years? He also made it seem like he didn't know him well at all. Then it comes out they were in business together. Now, he's dead? Shouldn't that tidbit come out at the beginning?? Makes me think of Pablo Artesi, who died, and didn't BillyBoy die too? Funny how they all die.

John

LOL, honestly i was thinking all this saga needs is a death and now we have one, im just waiting for the news that TT has come down with a life threatening disease and that will basically have every base covered.

But im calling for a full coroners report into Arthurs death, all we need now is for TT to be seen in the vicinity of Arthurs house the day he died, that will seal the deal for me :awesome::whistling: (jokes)

 

[phidias_barrios]

A guy with a seemingly endless supply of something great. How does that old saying go again? When something is too good to be true, it usually is. Sadly, reading through that SWFUK thread reminds me of what a lot of us vintage snobs suffered through with Scott's green harvest. I'm getting a little sick.

I don't have any skin in this game but I hope this ends well for anyone with Toni's stock. Hopefully Dean_C in this thread below isn't right. Good luck to all.

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t809045/

 

[LandoSkiff]

I do not collect the series in question, so I have no stake on this, but I still say you can't say they are indistinguishable until comparisons are made. Perhaps. All of these that were put together later all have, for example, print marks on the cards that the legit pieces do not. Or maybe they are all off center. Or the registry isn't as sharp. Or the cards are slightly smaller. Or the punch holes are a little to the left. We don't know until someone takes the initiative to do some comparisons with intense scrutiny.

 

[phidias_barrios]

I'd like to add that as Toni's customers continue vetting their MOC collections and comparing notes with each other, I'm sure the truth (whatever that will be) will eventually come out. Even with vintage era bubbles and card backs, there's usually always a tell for something that might be questionable. You just have to dig deep enough. No one has a perfect poker face when it comes to faking stuff like this, whether it's MOCs or hardcopies.


But I have to agree with John, it's pretty convenient for Joiner that nobody's talking about that Palitoy Jawa anymore. Deflection is a cunning linguist's friend.

 

[DogPoopWalker]

I just don't see how this can possibly be cost effective. Someone else said, "maybe they spent years perfecting the process to make a fake VCJ." All for a measly $15K? You'd make more money flipping burgers at Mcdonalds!

Maybe I just don't have the mindset of a scammer.

 

[AussieFortuna]

I just don't see how this can possibly be cost effective. Someone else said, "maybe they spent years perfecting the process to make a fake VCJ." All for a measly $15K? You'd make more money flipping burgers at Mcdonalds!

Maybe I just don't have the mindset of a scammer.

If true, he has made hundreds of thousands of dollars, that sounds pretty cost effective to me, and what would the outlay be, probably not much..

 

[Lee_Gray]

Talking about all original parts but not assembled at the factory reminds me of a company called. NGDEV who still make games for the neo geo system, their first game they made Last Hope, they couldnt afford the clamshells and get hold of snaplock cases or to assemble the games so just sent out the pcb boards, inserts and labels and the consumer had to get hold of their own clamshell and snaplock cases from already existing neo geo games and assemble them themselves, these games are classed as originals and sell for over 4000 dollars even though not factory assembled....BIG diff is though is that buyers and potential buyers all know this and its company official.....im not sure many people would buy these action figures on the same knowledge though.

 

[AussieFortuna]

If you do some online research about TT's carded figures going back 15 years you will find dozens of collectors on forums questioning if they are the real deal, i have done this out of interest, so the warning signs were there, this is not the first time people have speculated about what he has sold, but there just seems to be an overwhelming idea in the vintage community that people cant fake seals, i just dont buy it for a second, fakers out there are doing things way harder than faking seals in SW cards, bank notes, stamps, cards, paintings, coins etc, making fake seals would be childs play compared to some of these things, give me 25,000 cards and bubbles, i recon id figure it out with plenty of trial and error, and i dont buy for a second you need a machine from the factory to do it....

 

[Pekboy]

I just checked TT's website and it seems he is still open for business if anyone is still interested in his Palitoys or German cards:wtf:

 

[Lafos]

If you do some online research about TT's carded figures going back 15 years you will find dozens of collectors on forums questioning if they are the real deal, i have done this out of interest, so the warning signs were there, this is not the first time people have speculated about what he has sold, ....

Could you post some sources/ links.

 

[Mattias_Rendahl]

I just posted this over at SWFUK, pelase visit page 67 for some comparrison pics:

Ok, maybe not solid evidence. But for someone who has quite much knowledge in the packaging design and printing-industry, the following facts doesn't speak in ToyToni's favor. This has been know by me for quite some time but I've never compared Toni's moc's and the unused cardbacks with cardbacks/moc's from childhood collections. Let me try to explain.


I own an unused Palitoy C-3PO cardback. I bought a carded Palitoy C-3PO from ToyToni years ago so that I could compare them to see if there was any differences between the two (just to rule out that the unused cardbacks were proof cards). They were identical. And with the latest knowledge and rumours, they are TOO IDENTICAL. The unused cardback AND the Moc from ToyToni both have two big flaws that would have been corrected before making the final printing. They both have:
1. A magenta (pink) dot under the nameplate. This was caused by dirt on the printing plate, which is to 99.9% removed by the printer. And if he misses it, the print batch is likely rejected by the QC department or a few (which could be some hundreds) slips through by mistake.
2. Registration error. One of the printing plates hasn't been placed correctly, which creates a glap in the printing colors. This is also a thing any printer would fix before printing the whole batch.


The two things above doesn't show on the childhood cardbacks and moc's Ive seen. So the unused cardback and moc from ToyToni are from the exact same printing batch. The cardback with price sticker is from a later or corrected print batch. What does this mean? In my world it actually means that the cards with the magenta dot (dirt on the printing plate) and the color registration error was FROM THE SAME STACK OF CARDS, either rejected by the Palitoy QC department or just left overs from the factory when they closed down. And the probability that the unused carcback and the moc from ToyToni just by coincidence have these two defects while others (which don't come from Tonis don't) lacks these defects/mistakes.


i have a very busy weekend and wanted to take more time to explain it better, but I thought it was more important to get it out. I'd be happy to answer questions and try to explain some things better if it doesnt make sense. Like I said first in the post, this is not solid proof, but the chances things like this would only happen on the stuff Toni has, are almost none imo.




I'd like to recieve pics of more of the unused cardbacks that are around, so that I closely can inspect and compare to ToyTonis carded and the ones from childhood collections. So if you have any please email me at rendahl[AT]echobase.nu


Mattias

 

[Joshua_A]

I just posted this over at SWFUK, pelase visit page 67 for some comparrison pics:

Ok, maybe not solid evidence. But for someone who has quite much knowledge in the packaging design and printing-industry, the following facts doesn't speak in ToyToni's favor. This has been know by me for quite some time but I've never compared Toni's moc's and the unused cardbacks with cardbacks/moc's from childhood collections. Let me try to explain.


I own an unused Palitoy C-3PO cardback. I bought a carded Palitoy C-3PO from ToyToni years ago so that I could compare them to see if there was any differences between the two (just to rule out that the unused cardbacks were proof cards). They were identical. And with the latest knowledge and rumours, they are TOO IDENTICAL. The unused cardback AND the Moc from ToyToni both have two big flaws that would have been corrected before making the final printing. They both have:
1. A magenta (pink) dot under the nameplate. This was caused by dirt on the printing plate, which is to 99.9% removed by the printer. And if he misses it, the print batch is likely rejected by the QC department or a few (which could be some hundreds) slips through by mistake.
2. Registration error. One of the printing plates hasn't been placed correctly, which creates a glap in the printing colors. This is also a thing any printer would fix before printing the whole batch.


The two things above doesn't show on the childhood cardbacks and moc's Ive seen. So the unused cardback and moc from ToyToni are from the exact same printing batch. The cardback with price sticker is from a later or corrected print batch. What does this mean? In my world it actually means that the cards with the magenta dot (dirt on the printing plate) and the color registration error was FROM THE SAME STACK OF CARDS, either rejected by the Palitoy QC department or just left overs from the factory when they closed down. And the probability that the unused carcback and the moc from ToyToni just by coincidence have these two defects while others (which don't come from Tonis don't) lacks these defects/mistakes.


i have a very busy weekend and wanted to take more time to explain it better, but I thought it was more important to get it out. I'd be happy to answer questions and try to explain some things better if it doesnt make sense. Like I said first in the post, this is not solid proof, but the chances things like this would only happen on the stuff Toni has, are almost none imo.




I'd like to recieve pics of more of the unused cardbacks that are around, so that I closely can inspect and compare to ToyTonis carded and the ones from childhood collections. So if you have any please email me at rendahl[AT]echobase.nu


Mattias

I think if you take everything that has been uncovered lately into account, this case is closed. Toni would want to come out with some cracker explanation here to counter some of this otherwise.

 

[AussieFortuna]

Could you post some sources/ links.

Mate im computer illiterate, all i know how to do is type things into google and search, ive never posted a link of picture in my life lol.
Just google 'toytoni fakes' and similar, you will see plenty of people asking questions about his cards over the years.

Once again, im not saying he is guilty, innocent till proven guilty, but this whole deal is very interesting and if it turns out to be true will smash many myths regarding fakes in the SW community.

 

[SeerDrakon]

It really blows my mind that this guy is making all of his accounts on eBay private now...especially when all the evidence points to him buying most common GM minty fresh off the card figures. His history has shown that these have never shown up to be resold either.....but the MOCS have.

I agree with Josh A....all that is left...is a smoking gun in his hand. If you have GM 45B B pieces in your collection and you bought from Toy Toni please post pictures of the bubble. A few forums are on to something and this is helpful evidence.

I still feel he had more then those cardbacks that were in the stack he bought and this is why I feel that VC Jawa is in more question then before. No disrespect to the collectors that stated that it was real. This is not my intent. My intent is the seller that wants to stay anonymous.


This is something major and this guy not coming forward is damning for those collectors that collected General Mills. I feel for you guys. I have always wondered why there were so many graded GM pieces that were 90's. I mean it was a bit unbelievable. But now....the answer is bit clear.

 

[Yehuda_K]

I just posted this over at SWFUK, pelase visit page 67 for some comparrison pics:


Ok, maybe not solid evidence. But for someone who has quite much knowledge in the packaging design and printing-industry, the following facts doesn't speak in ToyToni's favor. This has been know by me for quite some time but I've never compared Toni's moc's and the unused cardbacks with cardbacks/moc's from childhood collections. Let me try to explain.




I own an unused Palitoy C-3PO cardback. I bought a carded Palitoy C-3PO from ToyToni years ago so that I could compare them to see if there was any differences between the two (just to rule out that the unused cardbacks were proof cards). They were identical. And with the latest knowledge and rumours, they are TOO IDENTICAL. The unused cardback AND the Moc from ToyToni both have two big flaws that would have been corrected before making the final printing. They both have:
1. A magenta (pink) dot under the nameplate. This was caused by dirt on the printing plate, which is to 99.9% removed by the printer. And if he misses it, the print batch is likely rejected by the QC department or a few (which could be some hundreds) slips through by mistake.
2. Registration error. One of the printing plates hasn't been placed correctly, which creates a glap in the printing colors. This is also a thing any printer would fix before printing the whole batch.




The two things above doesn't show on the childhood cardbacks and moc's Ive seen. So the unused cardback and moc from ToyToni are from the exact same printing batch. The cardback with price sticker is from a later or corrected print batch. What does this mean? In my world it actually means that the cards with the magenta dot (dirt on the printing plate) and the color registration error was FROM THE SAME STACK OF CARDS, either rejected by the Palitoy QC department or just left overs from the factory when they closed down. And the probability that the unused carcback and the moc from ToyToni just by coincidence have these two defects while others (which don't come from Tonis don't) lacks these defects/mistakes.




i have a very busy weekend and wanted to take more time to explain it better, but I thought it was more important to get it out. I'd be happy to answer questions and try to explain some things better if it doesnt make sense. Like I said first in the post, this is not solid proof, but the chances things like this would only happen on the stuff Toni has, are almost none imo.








I'd like to recieve pics of more of the unused cardbacks that are around, so that I closely can inspect and compare to ToyTonis carded and the ones from childhood collections. So if you have any please email me at rendahl[AT]echobase.nu




Mattias

What we need is careful inspection of all aspects of the carded figures that came from questionable sources and clearly legitemate sources by our community experts like Mattias. then careful review, I believe will reveal the truth.

 

[Yak]

I'd disagree. Nobody knows exactly what was in that stack of 25000 unused cardbacks. Hell, a month ago nobody even knew there WERE 25000 unused cardbacks (except, you know, that it was common knowledge...).

But people did, here's a quote on RS from 2003

....
He [Toni] has a large 'stash' of carded figures! Some of which are truly 'case fresh'! He has a few 'Tri-logo' light blue Boba Fetts on RotJ PALITOY cards left too!
...

and while that's a quote from Billy Boy, AussieFortuna makes a great point in all this

Sometimes it takes a shyster to catch a shyster.

Also if you are putting trilogo boba fetts onto cards they should never have been on, then that's an example of why none of them can be seen as authentic.

 

[escapist]

But people did, here's a quote on RS from 2003

I missed that when I saw that thread earlier but the speech marks do imply he knew exactly what we all now suspect.... Is Billy Boy, like Arthur Bailey, no longer with us??

 

[Yak]

I missed that when I saw that thread earlier but the speech marks do imply he knew exactly what we all now suspect.... Is Billy Boy, like Arthur Bailey, no longer with us??

I hope he's still with us in that sense but he's def gone 'underground' since this thread
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1002222/

 

[Bramistuta25]

For anyone who is interested, there has just been a big update and there will be lots of pictures to follow after developments at an event in the UK today.

It does not look good at all I am afraid.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news

 

[tigerham]

Edit. Sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[finestcomics]

It really blows my mind that this guy is making all of his accounts on eBay private now...especially when all the evidence points to him buying most common GM minty fresh off the card figures. His history has shown that these have never shown up to be resold either.....but the MOCS have.

I agree with Josh A....all that is left...is a smoking gun in his hand. If you have GM 45B B pieces in your collection and you bought from Toy Toni please post pictures of the bubble. A few forums are on to something and this is helpful evidence.

I still feel he had more then those cardbacks that were in the stack he bought and this is why I feel that VC Jawa is in more question then before. No disrespect to the collectors that stated that it was real. This is not my intent. My intent is the seller that wants to stay anonymous.


This is something major and this guy not coming forward is damning for those collectors that collected General Mills. I feel for you guys. I have always wondered why there were so many graded GM pieces that were 90's. I mean it was a bit unbelievable. But now....the answer is bit clear.

The only piece I bought from Toni was the ROTJ Fett and it has the dot under the nameplate. It is not noticeable unless you are looking for it. I don't know what about the card to look for as far as registration is concerned. Unfortunately I don't have the time to photograph mine, but I'm familiar with registration from printing and I don't see this in the titling or anywhere in the back of the card. If it's something specific to look for in the text or MOC, that would help.

 

[Mattias_Rendahl]

Ham, I'm trying to understand if you understand the magnitude of this chatastrophy?
I only understand that the people affected will seek justice from whoever who is behind this. In court or in the courtyard. No matter why he did it.

By judging by some of the latest pics it looks like I was onto something with my print error/QC rejected thoughts on some of the cards

Mattias

 

[jedisearcher]

The only piece I bought from Toni was the ROTJ Fett and it has the dot under the nameplate. It is not noticeable unless you are looking for it. I don't know what about the card to look for as far as registration is concerned. Unfortunately I don't have the time to photograph mine, but I'm familiar with registration from printing and I don't see this in the titling or anywhere in the back of the card. If it's something specific to look for in the text or MOC, that would help.

The registration issue was on a 3po rem limbs, on the edges of the ROTJ logo on the front, not a Fett. It was very noticeable.

The dot itself though is interesting, don't think that information has come up on the SWUK site.

 

[tigerham]

Hi Mattias and yes I understand but I have had certain situations in my Life over the last few years that have really opened my eyes to the more important things in Life my friend and hope that others do too. When you compare this situation about fraud and money loss to a little girl passing away for me it puts things into perspective.

I will not say anymore on this matter as maybe I should not have said anything in the first place. I just wanted to help and keep things calm that's all. It was all innocent and no offense intended and if I did I apologise.

I do understand a lot more than you think Mattias and if you knew my Life you would understand my words. This is not for now for sure and I'll leave it at that. Thank you and again, humbly sorry.