The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" debate

[Lafos]

I think it's time to post this link for more fellow collectors who haven't noticed this hot topic over at SWFUK or other European forums.

There's currently a massive debate, if a big amount of German General Mills 45 backs and Palitoy MOCs are being not factory sealed but sealed afterwards by a third party and sold as vintage ones.

It's already a massive thread, but worth a read, to get an idea of the discussion and the effect to the community.

Star Wars Forum - Vintage Star Wars Collecting Forum - StarWarsForum.co.uk • View topic - Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

 

[Atavachron]

So Toni bought the cards,bubbles and figures as a job lot then found a way to heat seal them and fooled AFA etc that they were legit and made a fortune???

 

[BrianM]

This is a fascinating read. I hope the mods will let this link stay because this is of critical importance to vintage SW collectors (some 25,000 carded Palityoy figures may be affected) and the major players seem to be participating in that thread. If you collect Palitoy or even have any Palitoy, you should read this thread immediately!!

 

[Ross_Barr]

Lafos, a couple others pointed me to this thread when last night I posted a request for value opinions on a Leia Bespin Gown German General Mills 45 Back I just sent to AFA and received an 85 overall. Here is the thread: http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1104893/

I am through page 38 of 50 on the SWFUK thread, and I agree that this is a FASCINATING and very important read for all of us here, as it may or may not have a profound impact on folks' collections and many items that are listed for sale on the Classified section of this very forum right now. The allegations relate to German ESB figures, but also Palitoy ROTJ figures, most notably Boba Fett. EVERYONE MUST READ THE SWFUK THREAD!

With that said, for selfish reasons (I just bought one recently), I hope it is not true. Not sure we will ever know though....

Ross

 

[Ross_Barr]

Holy smokes. Just finished reading the whole thread. Didn't do a lick of work at my job this morning.....

I am just blown away. I didn't buy anything from Toni directly, but have a couple pieces that fit within the category of items that are under question that were purchased out of Europe. Needless to say, there is a lot of confusion out there from the folks in Europe that are active on that board and in that particular thread, and interestingly the accused party has gone silent. That can mean a lot of things that range from innocent to smoking gun level.

The implications for the SW collecting world can be enormous if this is true.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Think this one will run for a while unfortunately.



Jason

 

[Fettafari]

Wow, I started the read last night, and finished it this morning. Shocking, disturbing, and I really hope it is not true. If you have all of the actual genuine material, and a way to seal the actual material to look legit, detection would be near impossible... scary indeed!

 

[Atavachron]

Link to Toni's site : TOYTONI.COM

 

[Yehuda_K]

It's important to wait and see what the details of the evidence shows before anybody reacts. The questionable carded figures need to be compared to known carded figures which are unequivocally authentic. Once the facts are known appropriate action can be taken if warranted. This may be another great fraud like the McWilliams scandal or this may be unfounded rumor. Only the evidence will show the truth.

 

[BrianM]

It's important to wait and see what the details of the evidence shows before anybody reacts. The questionable carded figures need to be compared to known carded figures which are unequivocally authentic. Once the facts are known appropriate action can be taken if warranted. This may be another great fraud like the McWilliams scandal or this may be unfounded rumor. Only the evidence will show the truth.

The scary thing is that a comparison to known authentic figures may not show any differences. If, as is suggested by the thread, this guy took these to a factory to have the figures and bubbles put on, it's conceivable that there will not be any way to distinguish. The claim is that authentic unused cardbacks, authentic unused bubbles and authentic mint figures were taken to a factory and assembled, perhaps using the same equipment the manufacturer would have used. They would be identical in all respects to a legit carded figure, except that they were assembled years later by someone other than the manufacturer. That is why many of these have or have likely made it past AFA. There's just no way to "date" when the bubble was attached to the card.

There are even some on the thread suggesting that authentic card + authentic bubble + authentic figure = authentic collectible, regardless of when it was assembled. In other words, they don't seem to care, which blows my mind. Perhpas these are the people who have the most invested in these Gen Mills/Palitoy figures.

 

[Wbobafett]

Time it was linked here Lafos....I thought looong about it doing it myself!

I am not even a Moc collector but this does and will affect the hobby...for all of us!

There is scary numbers, scary assumptions and I am not sure if wether its true or not! The fact beeing that there is many variants/coos put on one and the same cardback, the fact that every "material" used is original and the fact that heat sealing isn't that difficult at all is very scary tothe hobby in general!


What Joe_O found out about the second ebay account on Toni will make horror dreams come true! I really really hope this all isn't true.....


Wolff

 

[_Lee_]

The scary thing is that a comparison to known authentic figures may not show any differences. If, as is suggested by the thread, this guy took these to a factory to have the figures and bubbles put on, it's conceivable that there will not be any way to distinguish. The claim is that authentic unused cardbacks, authentic unused bubbles and authentic mint figures were taken to a factory and assembled, perhaps using the same equipment the manufacturer would have used. They would be identical in all respects to a legit carded figure, except that they were assembled years later by someone other than the manufacturer. That is why many of these have or have likely made it past AFA. There's just no way to "date" when the bubble was attached to the card.

There are even some on the thread suggesting that authentic card + authentic bubble + authentic figure = authentic collectible, regardless of when it was assembled. In other words, they don't seem to care, which blows my mind. Perhpas these are the people who have the most invested in these Gen Mills/Palitoy figures.

I think the claim also suggests that figures,cards and bubbles are still being assembled today,not just in the past.That is the worrying part.How many people have spent £400 upwards for a Boba Fett ROTJ Palitoy,when the realisation could 'possibly' be a mint £30-£40 figure (approx),a vintage unused card and a vintage bubble??? Some people will say that that equals a moc,to which i call ********.The reasons we collect such items,is partially down to the knowledge that these figures were on that card way back when we were still growing with the movies.It was there for 30 years,and was in the stores when we were taking other figures from the same hook and ripping them open.Maybe thats just me who thinks like that,but this and knowing it was sealed at Palitoy factor are huge factors for me.

If it happens to be true,the vintage Palitoy/GM market will suffer huge consequences.People will know that the value of their collections have plummeted,but the realisation that they were knocked out as recently as we have been led to beleive-will hit them harder.They would be nothing more than good reseals IMO.

I also beleive this could hugely affect AFA as they have graded items which originated from this source,and that is fact.Most of the ROTJ/GM Palitoys originated from him,yes some may be good but some may not.My worry is that it could be covered up to save face,and that could open another can of worms.

Whatever happens,many people will never feel at ease with these again.The seeds of doubt are well and truly planted.

A sad time for collecting.

 

[Atavachron]

I think the claim also suggests that figures,cards and bubbles are still being assembled today,not just in the past.That is the worrying part.How many people have spent £400 upwards for a Boba Fett ROTJ Palitoy,when the realisation could 'possibly' be a mint £30-£40 figure (approx),a vintage unused card and a vintage bubble??? Some people will say that that equals a moc,to which i call ********.The reasons we collect such items,is partially down to the knowledge that these figures were on that card way back when we were still growing with the movies.It was there for 30 years,and was in the stores when we were taking other figures from the same hook and ripping them open.Maybe thats just me who thinks like that,but this and knowing it was sealed at Palitoy factor are huge factors for me.

If it happens to be true,the vintage Palitoy/GM market will suffer huge consequences.People will know that the value of their collections have plummeted,but the realisation that they were knocked out as recently as we have been led to beleive-will hit them harder.They would be nothing more than good reseals IMO.

I also beleive this could hugely affect AFA as they have graded items which originated from this source,and that is fact.Most of the ROTJ/GM Palitoys originated from him,yes some may be good but some may not.My worry is that it could be covered up to save face,and that could open another can of worms.

Whatever happens,many people will never feel at ease with these again.The seeds of doubt are well and truly planted.

A sad time for collecting.

Indeed Lee

 

[Gonk]

I was always amazed at how new, pristine, and clear palitoy bubbles always seemed to be. Is this the reason?

 

[Atavachron]

From his site :

Sealed in 1982 or 2012? Serious stuff.

 

[Kenner76]

If this bad news it true, then the vintage moc market (and AFA) is going to take a major hit! It pains me to think of yet another big vintage scandal. Let us hope this information turns out to be false.......

 

[Dennis_Vleugels]

What i read a couple of times now, is that some people would like to compare an GM Palitoy Moc originating from Toni vs another on that Did not come from him, but i wonder if he is selling these for almost 20 years, how would you've able to tell the other Did not come from Toni at some point in time?

 

[Yehuda_K]

If a figure is carded today with an authentic card back and an authentic bubble it is a fraud. That should be clear. I am also surprised to hear that anyone would consider this an authentic vintage carded figure. In reality this ruins the unused card back and unused bubble. In turn it has created something which appears authentic but is sadly a forgery. The faulty reasoning to consider this an authentic vintage figure seems to follow the faulty reasoning that an AFA graded figure which was graded uncirculated is a better more valuable vintage collectible then the original carded figure.
Although a recently carded figure made with authentic vintage parts may be very difficult to discern from a vintage carded figure, I would not be so sure that there is not a way to differentiate the two different pieces. I would differ this evaluation to Palitoy and European collectors. Even the best forgeries often can be differentiated from the authentic original, this is even true when the forgery is produced from authentic vintage pieces. If this can not be done that is truly worry some.
This can be as damaging to the foreign mint on card market as the McWilliams episode was damaging to the prototype market.

 

[Yehuda_K]

What i read a couple of times now, is that some people would like to compare an GM Palitoy Moc originating from Toni vs another on that Did not come from him, but i wonder if he is selling these for almost 20 years, how would you've able to tell the other Did not come from Toni at some point in time?

Give us an authentic price sticker . Or compare it to a carded figure where no known overstock card backs were found.

 

[Dennis_Vleugels]

Give us an authentic price sticker . Or compare it to a carded figure where no known overstock card backs were found.

Lets say option 2 is more reliable, as a authentic price sticker still could have been transfered from another moc/cardback.

 

[mr_palitoy]

What i read a couple of times now, is that some people would like to compare an GM Palitoy Moc originating from Toni vs another on that Did not come from him, but i wonder if he is selling these for almost 20 years, how would you've able to tell the other Did not come from Toni at some point in time?

Obvious signs of wear and a shop price sticker would indicate stock that did not come from Toni.

Jason

 

[PMK916]

If this is all true... is it only these 2 particular groups of moc SW that he could have done this with or might there have been opportunities to have done it to other lines as well...and not even just from SW, but also Transformers, GI Joe, and so on? Could be problematic for other collectors too?

 

[Gonk]

As I understand it, this forger is using real cardbacks and bubbles. So, this shouldn't affect other lines, unless he managed to find a stock of real cardbacks and bubbles for those other lines as well.

I say, why not just ask the guy to show us his 25,000 carbbacks and bubbles? Surely it would be worth it to him to clear his name.

 

[Joshua_A]

Inappropriate picture removed

 

[JohnA]

This can be as damaging to the foreign mint on card market as the McWilliams episode was damaging to the prototype market.

Yes, and we estimate the McW thing to tack in somewhere between 100-150k in damage. This I hear is high 6 figures maybe even 7 figures in damage. Twenty years of selling is a LONG time.

I should stress I'm only speculating. I have no dog in this fight. I wanted to believe Toni's rep but some of this is looking kind of damning.

John

 

[Gonk]

Well, about that 25,000 cardbacks... the guy accused of the forgery is saying he never bought such a lot (page 18 of that thread.) So, I guess that would answer the question about showing us 25,000 cardbacks.

 

[Joshua_A]

escapist wrote: Doing a bit of digging on RS From a 2010 thread discussing unused Palitoy cardbacks : http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1045737-2/ Quote: I purchased 4 or 5 of the Unused Palitoy backers from ToyToni at the Atlantique City Show. I was under the impression(maybe he told me?) they came from the same source as all of his minty carded stuff. I then later bought some more from him through the mail. I think I ended up with 8 different with 3-5 doubles and maybe a triple. Which ones were they? I do not remember. One day, I will fire up the old computer that has some pics on it and we will see which ones I had. He told me he had more of them, but I stopped buying them because they were $100 a piece and I felt they weren't actually worth that at the time. Proof cards were on a downswing at the time. I contacted him a year or 2 later and he said he had no more. Every year or 2, I shoot him another email making sure he didn't find more. I sold all the doubles to friends and at shows, but held on to one of each. Then got bored with them, got them graded, and sold them on ebay. Wish I had more info for ya. Thanks, Andy Sorry to quote my own post, but when you read this post, from three years ago, in line with this portion of Toni's statement from page 18 (so long ago!), it certainly doesn't appear to be quite right. Quote: I do remember there indeed was a list of items which included unused cards but these never materialised I never saw any or was offered any samples from him . I ended up buying quite large quantities of carded figures from him which were a mix of Kenner ,POTF,Palitoy.,german General Mills and Trilogo non of which came in trade boxes - in those days there wasn't that much interest in carded figures let alone in the outer boxes.

Interesting

 

[tigerham]

The truth always comes out in the end no matter how long it takes and as hard as the outcome may be in the long run it is most certainly for the best and makes for a brighter future for all those involved. Call it a cleaning process if you will. We all make mistakes, some bigger than others and it's the fact we learn by them and not make the same ones again that counts. I hope this is all cleared up sooner rather than later.

 

[SydSwans]

Can comparisons be made with cardbacks with cut bubbles rather than needing a MOC to do a side by side ? These are Jedi cards though that I bought from Romer Parishers on a trip to the UK in 1986

 

[andrewb]

Now I know why Palitoy figures have mostly clear bubbles.......

AB

 

[andrewb]

I was always amazed at how new, pristine, and clear palitoy bubbles always seemed to be. Is this the reason?

Exactly Gonk- I am thinking the same..!!!

AB

 

[AussieFortuna]

Innocent till proven guilty, but theres a real bad smell around this and imo its not looking good for TT.
From the start of JJ's allegations i said on TIG if i was a gambling man id have a tickle on part or all of his story to be true, you just dont make that stuff up in that detail unless you were mentally unstable.

TT stated he hardly knew this Arthur guy its alleged he got the bubbles and cards from, FACT it turns out he ran a company with him and the records show he did.

TT stated he never had unused card, FACT now it turns out he allegedly sold unused cards to members on forums, the same ones he said he never had, photo proof has been posted.

TT allegedly has a second ebay account he has used to buy mint loose figures at top dollar, also many people are stating they sold many lots of loose mint figures to him.

JJ states he only just missed out on the deal for these cards and bubbles, from the same guy Arthur that TT had a company with, Arthur told JJ that he sold them all to TT, JJ states he confronted TT at a toy fair and TT admitted to him he bought them, also JJ claims it was common knowledge back then.

Thats the short list, there seems to be even more allegations.

Why would somebody make this stuff up, i dont buy the revenge story, JJ threw most of this stuff up after TT called him a liar, JJ carved him up imo, now TT wont respond because IMO he is scared of what JJ knows, he doesnt want to be backed into a corner with his own words, any person who was innocent would be in there with nothing to fear fighting for his rep imo.

JJ might have a poor rep with some, but ive looked into it, ive seen worse, he might have had a few fake props go through his hands but he has had a mammoth amount of SW go through his hands, he has the Guinnuss book of records biggest SW collection before SS, he's no dope when it comes to SW, the props business is notorious for fakes, and having as much stuff go through your hands as TT, the odds say you will get a few fakes, and they would be damn hard to tell the difference.

Also he is trustworthy enough for a guy like Kurtz to share a warehouse with him.

And with these seals, where theres a will theres a way, i dont believe all the talk that it would be impossible to seal them, he could have an old machine, or most likely he could have found another way to do it.

Im not stating he is guilty, innocent till proven guilty, but its just my opinion that theres a lot of meat on this bone, i know who id be putting my money on.

I genuinely believe that JJ believes everything he is saying, i dont think he is lying BUT that doesnt mean he has the right facts, many a man has believed his allegations before and have been wrong in the wash up, so innocent till proven guilty.

Some people are calling for AFA and UKG to get involved, whats that going to prove, they have already passed these things off as legit, they arnt going to turn around and shoot themselves in the foot.
Some are calling for JJ to produce a list he says he has, that wont prove anything either, the fact is there isnt much proof either parties can produce apart from 3rd party hearsay.

The proof will come from people in the community if there is any.

I dont know either of them, have no horse in the race, so my opinion is just an outsider looking in.

 

[andrewb]

And i was just thinking i need to get a Palitoy AFA for my small collection - Along comes this......

AB

 

[Joshua_A]

 

[ChristianC]

If this scam really did happen, can we please just pretend it didn't so I can enjoy my palitoys in peace? At least my favourite palitoy has a clipper sticker so that at least makes it legit right? Hope so....

Sometimes I think about quitting loose collecting because of repro weapons but I also think the same about MOCs because of recards/repros. Maybe I'll focus on SW toothbrushes or mugs. Then again someone probably reproduces them too!!!!

There are a lot a-holes out there trying to ruin our hobby but so far they have failed.

 

[Bonsai_Tree_Ent]

If loose figures are being repackaged and resold as MOC then that would be fraud under UK law, and if the offence were proven to be sustained and persistent it would likely carry a prison term. If the profits are high and tax evasion also features then this would end very badly for the offender.

 

[scarfman]

Wow! That was a cracking good read. From my years in both the Star Wars toy, and prop collecting communities, I've learned to distrust everything said by Jason Joiner. I'm not going to change that now, but wow its looking very bad for Toni's side.

Don't let Jason use this event as a means of ingratiating himself to the community, he has passed his share of fakes (props&figures) over the years.

 

[Joshua_A]

Scarfman. Any chance you can compile a list of all the stories you have heard about joiner with some specifics?

 

[scarfman]

The stories span 13 years and are few and mostly prop related. Mostly bogus COAs trying to pass off junk from Gary Kurtz's collection as screen used.
Such as a graflex with some rubber notched grips added, being touted as the screen used Luke lightsaber from ANH.
Think passing off a carded RF Fett to one of us, does not compute.
Why/how Gary got mixed up with this shyster is beyond me.

 

[yeahsus007]

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