TLJ Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

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It's funny. Every so often one of my reps get worked up about an email or IM from one of their peers. I ask them to read it to me. When they do, they often use a harsh tone while reading it. I ask, how do you know that they were mad when they wrote that? "Well I can just tell" is a typical response. I'll then read the message back to my rep in a kinder voice. They then realise that maybe that were wrong about the messengers perceived tone.

I think I'm seeing a lot of that going on here, but then again, I have the benefit of being a third party observer.
 
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I know this is way outta left field, but my wife said it to me earlier and now I can't get the picture outta my head.

She thinks Kylo looks like Edward Scissorhands.

I hope all of you are now infected as well.
 
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I remember this comment made by someone a while back. That he and his wife rarely speak about a movie afterwards due to difference in PoV, and fearing a possible argument. This does make sense after seeing posts on this forum, as well as FB and Twitter. That the tiniest disagreement about nothing, can lead to the biggest verbal assaults. We Humans are way too passionate a lot of the time, and often forget that just because we don't agree doesn't mean we or the other person is wrong or right.
It simply means we all see something different, and need to come to terms with that fact.

Nobody needs to punch babies
Tell that to the Scout Troopers in the Mandalorian!

One thing I didn't take in upon first viewing (and initially decried, in error, as being silly but now retract) was Chewie's medal.

Why? It's Han's - held by Leia in her dying clutches and taken from the corpse by Maz Kanata and passed on to Chewie. It's pretty deep.
The only issue I had with it, was that Maz was the one to give Chewy the medal. It makes no sense because she wasn't there, was she? She shouldn't have any association to that moment in time, or has that all been retconned too. I guess they could have met shortly after ROTJ, and one night at Chalmun's partying he told her all about how he was shafted.
 

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I think the "idiot" comment was a mistake because Farmer's post was quoted in Cellblock's post where he actually did use the word idiot (Rylo shipper idiots).

Say what you want about the movies, put attacking fans is not welcome here. There is no need to get personal.

Different perspectives are great.
 

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1] I remember this comment made by someone a while back. That he and his wife rarely speak about a movie afterwards due to difference in PoV, and fearing a possible argument. This does make sense after seeing posts on this forum, as well as FB and Twitter. That the tiniest disagreement about nothing, can lead to the biggest verbal assaults. We Humans are way too passionate a lot of the time, and often forget that just because we don't agree doesn't mean we or the other person is wrong or right.
It simply means we all see something different, and need to come to terms with that fact.

2] Tell that to the Scout Troopers in the Mandalorian!

3] The only issue I had with it, was that Maz was the one to give Chewy the medal. It makes no sense because she wasn't there, was she? She shouldn't have any association to that moment in time, or has that all been retconned too. I guess they could have met shortly after ROTJ, and one night at Chalmun's partying he told her all about how he was shafted.
1] As @BoboFatt wisely pointed out, tone can't be understood in text. That is why the words we use are important. I probably spend 5-20 minutes composing my responses, more if it might be inflammatory. Being negative invites negative responses. That is not to say that I can't say negative things, just that being logical and fair when I do so makes it less explosive than saying, "only an idiot would think that". It also helps to be balanced.

2] Baby Yoda deserved it!

3] Maz was there when Leia joined the force. The medal was right there. Now assuming Han or Leia never talked to Maz about that moment, and that the medal isn't recognizable, or that that moment hasn't become part of history, Maz would realize that it was important to Leia (and in the Force) so would want family to have it. Chewie was family.

2 really]. They got what they deserved!
 
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I think the "idiot" comment was a mistake because Farmer's post was quoted in Cellblock's post where he actually did use the word idiot (Rylo shipper idiots).
That could be it.

Shippers have been annoying the crap out of me since the X-Files. Reylo and Finnpoe were two absolute nadirs of Star Wars discussion over the last four years.

Personally, though, I didn't see anything wrong with Farmer's post at all.
 
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@farmer @MysterioMaximus

Lads, I don't see where the fight is between you two? Farmer may be going hard on 'The Rise of Skywalker', but I don't think he's trying to have a go at you Max. He just wasn't impressed with the movie.
LOL Must have missed the fight.

I’ve said my piece about this movie on another thread. But reading your posts about the Han appearance and Chewbacca finally receiving his fanservice/medal being dumb moments, I really couldn’t help but had to interject that these bits are actually nothing worthy of contempt compared to the dumber and dumbest moments that plague the entirety of the movie. My god, you are in for a treat if you think those are the only dumb bits... You have see it now.

(@BoboFatt, I’m afraid I won’t be participating in any lengthy discussion on ROS LOOL... Doing so would mean I’d have to relive this "movie", and that’s just a much much much worser fate than having to attend a Justin Bieber/Selena Gomez doublebill concert surrounded by thousands of screaming/weeping teen girls. I don’t mean to come down hard on it, I suppose I’m just naturally b*tchy.)
 
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(@BoboFatt, I’m afraid I won’t be participating in any lengthy discussion on ROS LOOL... Doing so would mean I’d have to relive this "movie", and that’s just a much much much worser fate than having to attend a Justin Bieber/Selena Gomez doublebill concert surrounded by thousands of screaming/weeping teen girls. I don’t mean to come down hard on it, I suppose I’m just naturally b*tchy.)
Well that is disappointing. I was looking forward to reading more about your observations and takeaways, both positive and negative, but I get it. If I never hear Umbrella or Work ever again it'd be way too soon.
 
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Well that is disappointing. I was looking forward to reading more about your observations and takeaways, both positive and negative, but I get it. If I never hear Umbrella or Work ever again it'd be way too soon.
ROS is akin to nearly 3hrs of Umbrella/Work on a loop…

There have always been something positive I can wring out of even the worst of any SW film (… like as much as Solo was a dud and how much I loathe Childish Gambino and his ego, he really put in the only solid performance…). I cannot think of a single decent point for ROS… And it’s clearly upsetting some people to read the (deserved) bashing, so why persist? I may be b*tchy— but I’m not a jerk.

(I did affectionately LOL in the theatre at the scene of poor Rose clearly struggling to run uphill on the wing of the SD like that one fat kid in gym class who’s struggling to finish his lap even though class is over and everyone’s done. My god, someone— anyone— Finn, get her on your space horse…Sheesh. BTW, why make the great effort to transport space horses all across the galaxy when they don’t seem to specialize in anything…??? Couldn’t Finn and his comrades just run alongside Rose? Anyway, the theatre was empty except for myself, my friend’s boys, and maybe a few others, so my LOL wasn't too distracting, hopefully.)
 
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I’m actually watching TLJ now and I loved all the choices Rian Johnson made. I was actually kind of mad JJ Abrams dailed them back, but still loved Rise of Skywalker because I’m a total Star Wars nerd.
 
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While I know that we have enough new stuff to litigate with TROS, I'm fully with @bobbyjack that TLJ is clearly the best of the sequel trilogy. In many ways because it's the only one that tried to do more than just remix and recreate what we got in the OT. I am fully aware that many people here hate it, but, man, it feels like the only movie set after the OT that actually tries to advance and (as Yoda says) grow beyond what came before. It's a shame that they didn't carry that over into the closing of the trilogy; as I've said in another post, they had so many interesting pieces in play, and could have even had a relatively safe movie close out the trilogy.

Anyway, cheers to those who hated TLJ and found redemption (Bendemption?) in TROS. I very much feel the opposite...but at least we were lucky enough to get something we liked at some point.
 
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See I mean, my thing is, yes...I admire that The Last Jedi attempted something new. But I don't think that makes those new things good simply because they're new. The Last Jedi is, for me, significantly the weakest of all the Saga. See it's always, always difficult to achieve a balance between new and old. It's just not possible to please everyone, especially with these movies, but you can aim for a majority. I mean, a great example would be Rose and Finn just going on what feels like Rian wanting to simply write in some self-indulgent preachy crap he personally believes in. Canto Bight, all of that, can literally be cut out and nothing would change. The Holdo stuff, the 3MPH space race, is utterly nonsensical...where it's a new idea or not, it's an idea that I don't think adds up whatsoever unless you just take it as Holdo literally just practicing "I ain't 'splainin to no man!" feminism. I mean, I just don't get what Rian was going for. But perhaps what I dislike most in Last Jedi is just the tone of the comedy. It's just so cringe! But I do think some things I've warmed up to now that I've seen the conclusion. Snoke doesn't bother me at all now. Luke only mildly bothers me now. It's just that middle stuff where I'm like, what am I even watching?
 
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I think the big point of divergence is that I think the new things are resoundingly successful. I don't find it preachy to go to a casino planet and confront the class of people profiting off the war...I think that expands the fictional universe, helping to explain the perspective of on-the-ground people in the galaxy who don't get involved because "eh, both sides are bad, I guess." That's interesting, and it helps set up the momentum at the end of the movie, which is that people have a reason to hope and believe in the good guys again. For all the guff the movie gets for saying Star Wars "doesn't matter" and undermining the legacy of Luke, the underlying message is that heroes like Luke are important, that stories like Star Wars show us the real difference between right and wrong, and that they are more important than ever.

Could that be removed from the movie and the plot have continued without it? Sure...but Finn wouldn't have had the experience that got his character to commit to a cause (and not just his one friend and himself), the impact of the finale wouldn't be as clear, and the theme of learning from our failures would have lost a key thread. There also would have been no reason for the First Order to know to go to Crait, since no one would have been captured and bargained with that information. So I do think all of that is important to the story, as well as to the characters and themes.

Same is true for Holdo -- she's absolutely right to not trust Poe with the details of her plan, since as soon as he does find out, he gives those details away over an open channel, which gives DJ the ability to sell the Resistance out when he needs to. Poe's only characterization in TFA is "good pilot" (since he was supposed to die 20 minutes in)...so making his arc in the second movie "hotshot pilot who learns there's more to leading than hotshot piloting" makes a lot of sense. Now, I do think it was intentional that the dynamic is a male character not listening to a female superior officer -- both characters show they have pre-loaded presumptions about the other based on their appearance and gender. is that preaching or shoved-in messaging? Not to me, since I think it adds to the dynamics.

As for the slow chase: it tracks for me that Hux would enjoy toying with his quarry, since he thinks their defeat is now inevitable. It's a true Goldfinger move. And I think a better Episode IX would have played up the tension between Kylo and Hux, with both characters rightly being able to say to the other "you let them get away."

Comedy is, of course, subjective. I think it mostly works, and isn't that far afield from other Star Wars movies. And there's nothing at the level of "Jar Jar steps in poop and then smells a fart" -- I'll take prank phone calls and snarky teacher Luke any day of the week.

Apologies for the long reply -- I'm not aiming to tell anyone they are wrong for not liking it. But I do think that, unlike JJ's entries, there is a clear set of character-driven narratives with thematic weight to them in TLJ. And, crucially, that they both advance and build upon the Star Wars we already had. That, ultimately, is what I think Rian was going for. And while it's clearly not true for everyone, it worked for me.
 
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Everybody hated how he portrayed Luke. Then Yoda came and smacked him in the back of the head and Luke realized he was wrong. He learned from that and made up up for it at end of movie. So even Luke got character development.
 

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I think the big point of divergence is that I think the new things are resoundingly successful. I don't find it preachy to go to a casino planet and confront the class of people profiting off the war...I think that expands the fictional universe, helping to explain the perspective of on-the-ground people in the galaxy who don't get involved because "eh, both sides are bad, I guess." That's interesting, and it helps set up the momentum at the end of the movie, which is that people have a reason to hope and believe in the good guys again. For all the guff the movie gets for saying Star Wars "doesn't matter" and undermining the legacy of Luke, the underlying message is that heroes like Luke are important, that stories like Star Wars show us the real difference between right and wrong, and that they are more important than ever.

Could that be removed from the movie and the plot have continued without it? Sure...but Finn wouldn't have had the experience that got his character to commit to a cause (and not just his one friend and himself), the impact of the finale wouldn't be as clear, and the theme of learning from our failures would have lost a key thread. There also would have been no reason for the First Order to know to go to Crait, since no one would have been captured and bargained with that information. So I do think all of that is important to the story, as well as to the characters and themes.

Same is true for Holdo -- she's absolutely right to not trust Poe with the details of her plan, since as soon as he does find out, he gives those details away over an open channel, which gives DJ the ability to sell the Resistance out when he needs to. Poe's only characterization in TFA is "good pilot" (since he was supposed to die 20 minutes in)...so making his arc in the second movie "hotshot pilot who learns there's more to leading than hotshot piloting" makes a lot of sense. Now, I do think it was intentional that the dynamic is a male character not listening to a female superior officer -- both characters show they have pre-loaded presumptions about the other based on their appearance and gender. is that preaching or shoved-in messaging? Not to me, since I think it adds to the dynamics.

As for the slow chase: it tracks for me that Hux would enjoy toying with his quarry, since he thinks their defeat is now inevitable. It's a true Goldfinger move. And I think a better Episode IX would have played up the tension between Kylo and Hux, with both characters rightly being able to say to the other "you let them get away."

Comedy is, of course, subjective. I think it mostly works, and isn't that far afield from other Star Wars movies. And there's nothing at the level of "Jar Jar steps in poop and then smells a fart" -- I'll take prank phone calls and snarky teacher Luke any day of the week.

Apologies for the long reply -- I'm not aiming to tell anyone they are wrong for not liking it. But I do think that, unlike JJ's entries, there is a clear set of character-driven narratives with thematic weight to them in TLJ. And, crucially, that they both advance and build upon the Star Wars we already had. That, ultimately, is what I think Rian was going for. And while it's clearly not true for everyone, it worked for me.
No need to apologize for being insightful and reasonable. That was a good read.
 
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As for the slow chase: it tracks for me that Hux would enjoy toying with his quarry, since he thinks their defeat is now inevitable.
This is the canon reason for his stupidity at the beginning; believing the enemy's defeat is inevitable, he wants to draw it out, so he has the Dreadnought destroy their already mostly evacuated base first in an effort to demoralize them instead of simply annihilating them right out of the gate, giving them a chance to either escape or mount a counterattack, both of which they do. Hux favors big showy displays in which overwhelming force is brought to bear to actual planning. This same mindset was the reason Starkiller Base existed; it was big, impressive and fired a huge laser. Hux has a child's understanding of war and his approach to fighting reflects this.
 
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The OT is a classic. Not perfect. But still great. The PT is clunky as all get out, a potentially interesting story badly told, saved by nevertheless knowing what it wanted to be. The ST will go down in history as the trilogy with the identity crisis.
 
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The OT is a classic. Not perfect. But still great. The PT is clunky as all get out, a potentially interesting story badly told, saved by nevertheless knowing what it wanted to be. The ST will go down in history as the trilogy with the identity crisis.
I disagree about the PT (the badly told bit, madness to disagree about it being clunky).

However will the Sequels "go down in history"? While I like parts of what Johnson tried to do the whole lot are "straight to video" quality. They don't even look like big blockbusters. The look cheap.

The PT and the OT are only epic looking - they are epic.
 
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You may notice I followed "go down in history" with "as the trilogy with the identity crisis." I wasn't praising it. Not everything goes down in history for good reasons.
 
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You may notice I followed "go down in history" with "as the trilogy with the identity crisis." I wasn't praising it. Not everything goes down in history for good reasons.
I know what you meant.

I phrased my response badly - I was asking will it even be remembered.
 
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Well, then, I assume yes. For better or for worse, it'll be remembered. Those who liked it will remember it for what they liked, and those who didn't will remember it for what they didn't like, same as with the PT. The only ones who won't remember it at all are those who either never saw it or were indifferent to it.
 
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