TROS Star Wars: Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker - (SPOILERS!!!)

GNT

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Lol. I think its funny that we are posting on a forum where the current film is being labeled the worst star wars movie, and there is a thread titled The force awakens is the worst movie ever made!

I keep forgetting the cycle of star wars complaints starts over with each new film.
I think it'll take time for TLJ to sink in but yeah it happens pretty much with every SW film that gets released.
 
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agreed, I suggest seeing it at least 2X, like it or not - it's pretty heavy. also the world today is so heavily populated by those who require social media commentary to dictate their lives & decisions, the box office may indeed be affected by those that cannot think for themselves and assume they shouldn't go to see it.
 
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I wonder how many people who say they won't see this will keep coming back and complain about the movie, all while boasting "I didn't see this movie, here are my thoughts on how it is the worst thing I've ever seen."
 
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oh it's already been done. It's awesome, man-some just went & read spoilers and can determine it's awful, and will tell us why. Another funny trend I've seen is suddenly, certain "fans" here (aka broken records, Groundhog Day posters) now simply adore the PT, cuz you know TLJ is just so awful, it's the new go-to for SW hate... it's beyond predictable, actually... wait till May, whoa it's gonna get really good then. But, don't be stepping on their opinions man, be tolerable (like they are) cuz we really need 'em to share all that AGAIN.
 
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agreed, I suggest seeing it at least 2X.
I won't pay money to see this in the cinema again. I'll probably watch it next on Blu-Ray, but I won't be rushing out to get the BD when it first comes out.

I'll see E IX in the cinema, but I don't really care what happens in the film, at this point. Killing off Luke pretty much destroyed TLJ for me. I was ok with the portrayal of Luke until they killed him. Personally, my feeling is that Luke would have never given up the rebuilding the Jedi, so I garee with Hamill. That's just my opinion, so it shouldn't be seen as an attack for those that liked the film.

My hope for E IX is that all of the new main characters die and we can move on from there. We can always get a new trilogy with that kid from Canto Bight, right?
 
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well, we'll see if that's the case, that Tamiri Blagg is the new galactic icon LOL ...seems everyone's assuming that's the plan w/ the NT (New Trilogy- is that gonna work LOL). Hamill wanted to do more films IMO, now he's lucky if he's ghost, so I believe most of his squawking stems from that. I personally can't let a film maker's decisions "destroy" said film or franchise, I can arrange them a certain way personally, but I couldn't imagine not enjoying films like F13, Halloween, SW, TCM sequels etc, because they didn't do what I wanted, I am bit too grateful & appreciate the industry too much. Be quite shocked if anyone on here doesn't see IX after watching the last 2 regardless of how much they're pouting now, just stop it.
 
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I won't pay money to see this in the cinema again. I'll probably watch it next on Blu-Ray, but I won't be rushing out to get the BD when it first comes out.

I'll see E IX in the cinema, but I don't really care what happens in the film, at this point. Killing off Luke pretty much destroyed TLJ for me. I was ok with the portrayal of Luke until they killed him. Personally, my feeling is that Luke would have never given up the rebuilding the Jedi, so I garee with Hamill. That's just my opinion, so it shouldn't be seen as an attack for those that liked the film.

My hope for E IX is that all of the new main characters die and we can move on from there. We can always get a new trilogy with that kid from Canto Bight, right?
I'm a sucker.... I'll go see Ep IX in the theatre. After TFA I thought "ok, I'm not going to go into TLJ with high expectations and all of these story points that I think will happen"... That was a lie. So far I've ruined TFA and TLJ with my own baggage. I SWEAR not to do that this time. There really isn't anything to speculate about now (unless you think Kylo was lying about Rey's parentage)

AH>>>> NOOOOOO.... stop it!!!

OK, from this point on I'm just going to go into Ep IX with this is all just an alternate timeline with Jake Skywalker and Ham Salad and Princess Leelo.
 
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Yeah, I have "0" expectations for E IX, so I can see it without wondering if thex'll kill off one of my favorite characters or not. Luke and Han are already gone, they'll have to deal with Leia somehow, so if they kill off Chewie, R2, 3PO (and maybe Lando if they bring him back), it will just fall in line with what they've done so far.

As for the new generation, I don't have any connection to them at all. I thought Poe was great in both films and all, but not enough to really care about the character like Luke. I really liked Rey in TFA, but I was disappointed in her in TLJ, so atm I don't really care who her parents really are (I think Kylo doesn't really know) nor do I care whether she's another Anakin or child of the force.

For me, E IX will be a film to go see, but I don't see myself getting excited about it. I wasn't impressed with JJ's TFA, so I have low expectations for E IX knocking my socks off with him at the helm.

Oddly enough, I think the ending with the kids on Canto Bight would have been a better ending for the ST and not the 2nd of 3 films.
 
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I do not expect the non-human main characters to go anywhere, even if they could-they just don't have to. An iconic ship only resonates so much, so I'd think they'll be kept around. they already emphasized in the TFA visual dictionary that Chewie is still a quite spry and young wookiee at his age. They say R2 is now showing his age, but that's manageable.
 
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Yeah, I have "0" expectations for E IX, so I can see it without wondering if thex'll kill off one of my favorite characters or not. Luke and Han are already gone, they'll have to deal with Leia somehow, so if they kill off Chewie, R2, 3PO (and maybe Lando if they bring him back), it will just fall in line with what they've done so far.

As for the new generation, I don't have any connection to them at all. I thought Poe was great in both films and all, but not enough to really care about the character like Luke. I really liked Rey in TFA, but I was disappointed in her in TLJ, so atm I don't really care who her parents really are (I think Kylo doesn't really know) nor do I care whether she's another Anakin or child of the force.

For me, E IX will be a film to go see, but I don't see myself getting excited about it. I wasn't impressed with JJ's TFA, so I have low expectations for E IX knocking my socks off with him at the helm.

Oddly enough, I think the ending with the kids on Canto Bight would have been a better ending for the ST and not the 2nd of 3 films.
I think you just pointed out the biggest problem facing the new directors. The OT cast overshadow any of the new characters, and it makes storytelling difficult. JJ solved it by having Luke show up at the end, and Ford wanted Han to die, so that takes up time in the movie. He did a good job balancing things out though. I think Rian had an even more difficult task of trying to create drama where Luke doesnt just come in and solve all the problems. How do you create conflict when one of your characters is basically space Jesus? You have to have him be preoccupied with something, in this case it was his own redemption arc.

Overall, I think JJ and Rian did what they had to do. I know its not for everybody. I think later generations will benefit from these films, because they’ll be able to watch it without the history that we all had.
 
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I think you just pointed out the biggest problem facing the new directors. The OT cast overshadow any of the new characters, and it makes storytelling difficult. JJ solved it by having Luke show up at the end, and Ford wanted Han to die, so that takes up time in the movie. He did a good job balancing things out though. I think Rian had an even more difficult task of trying to create drama where Luke doesnt just come in and solve all the problems. How do you create conflict when one of your characters is basically space Jesus? You have to have him be preoccupied with something, in this case it was his own redemption arc.

Overall, I think JJ and Rian did what they had to do. I know its not for everybody. I think later generations will benefit from these films, because they’ll be able to watch it without the history that we all had.
Only in Star Wars is an extremely popular character a "problem". I understood why Luke wasn't in the first one... it just goes without saying that they needed to promote new characters. They really should have left Han and Leia out of it as well because Han immediately became the best character as soon as he entered the Falcon.

I couldn't disagree more that JJ and Rian did what they had to do. They did what they (and Lucasfilm/Kennedy) wanted to do. TLJ says it very clearly, "Let go of the past... Kill it if you have to". So they killed it. There are hundreds of ways they could have gone with this trilogy and not alienated long time fans while bringing in new ones. They are betting on this new crop being interesting enough. Unfortunately they forgot to give us a reason to care. Kylo killed one of the most iconic characters in movie history and Rey didn't really have to do anything to gain her status. Luke developed over 3 movies. So far Rey has gone from nobody to nobody with a lightsaber and force powers. Finn and Poe have been almost entirely wasted... mainly used only when the plot needed some "extra" heroes.
 
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Only in Star Wars is an extremely popular character a "problem". I understood why Luke wasn't in the first one... it just goes without saying that they needed to promote new characters. They really should have left Han and Leia out of it as well because Han immediately became the best character as soon as he entered the Falcon.

I couldn't disagree more that JJ and Rian did what they had to do. They did what they (and Lucasfilm/Kennedy) wanted to do. TLJ says it very clearly, "Let go of the past... Kill it if you have to". So they killed it. There are hundreds of ways they could have gone with this trilogy and not alienated long time fans while bringing in new ones. They are betting on this new crop being interesting enough. Unfortunately they forgot to give us a reason to care. Kylo killed one of the most iconic characters in movie history and Rey didn't really have to do anything to gain her status. Luke developed over 3 movies. So far Rey has gone from nobody to nobody with a lightsaber and force powers. Finn and Poe have been almost entirely wasted... mainly used only when the plot needed some "extra" heroes.
Harrison wanted to have Han killed off. Its not like they had to do it, but they would’ve needed to explain why he wasn’t in the next two movies, which would be weird.

Luke was the hero in the OT. He’s the symbolic hero of the new generation, and now, of all time.

I understand many fans hated the direction that they chose, but some fans, like myself, feel the movies are better served telling a compelling story, and unfortunately your not left with much if you have characters that can overshadow all of the cast. I always imagined Star Wars to be about three generations. This is the final act, the stakes have to be written higher, people have to die, and our heros have to face the toughest challenges yet. It doesnt work if the people you are rooting for are infallible.

Just my opinion, of course.
 
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First scene of Ep IX - Millenium Falcon Blows Up with Chewie, C-3PO and R2 on board.....


...and Leia
With the way these films have been going, they might just do exactly that. Oddly enough, I'd stick around until the end of the film to see how it all ended without those OTers.

All kidding aside, unless they tell us in the opening crawl that Leia is dead, then I assume they'll portray her death in such a way. I thought they might have her on a ship going to a supposed peace conference with the FO and then we see a sneak attack from the FO and they blow up her ship. We never see Leia or they use some older footage, but then the film progresses from there.

I never thought about them destroying the MF, but that would solve their "problem" of the OT characters outshining the new ST stars.

They might also say that eia died from her previous wounds, but it has been kept a secret so as not to give the FO a piece of propaganda against the Resistance/Rebellion. Maybe the higher ups keep saying Leia is in charge to keep certain allies from switching allegiances.
 
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Harrison wanted to have Han killed off. Its not like they had to do it, but they would’ve needed to explain why he wasn’t in the next two movies, which would be weird.

Luke was the hero in the OT. He’s the symbolic hero of the new generation, and now, of all time.

I understand many fans hated the direction that they chose, but some fans, like myself, feel the movies are better served telling a compelling story, and unfortunately your not left with much if you have characters that can overshadow all of the cast. I always imagined Star Wars to be about three generations. This is the final act, the stakes have to be written higher, people have to die, and our heros have to face the toughest challenges yet. It doesnt work if the people you are rooting for are infallible.

Just my opinion, of course.
I don't beleaguer a point to try and get someone to change their mind about a movie so I'm glad you liked it.

My point is made in your last paragraph... "characters that can overshadow all of the cast." This should have been the reason to give these characters the send off they deserved. Dorothy Gale lives on because we didn't see a lightsaber shoved through her chest. Why did they make new Terminator movies?? because it's a great character. Why do they continue to make Indiana Jones movies?? because he's a great character. Why James Bond? Why Robin Hood? Why King Arthur? And then we come to Star Wars... Why make new Star Wars movies?? Well...... we don't want to overshadow the characters WE create with the established iconic characters that have been part of Pop Culture for 40 years, so we better kill them off.

I can live with Luke as a force ghost... I think most figured that would happen. I think most fans figured that would happen as he was protecting his friends (which sort of happened, but not really). Luke and Han could have been pop culture icons for another 40 years... but I fear with death... that's kind of final. We'll see if the new Solo movie does anything for Han or not????
 
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I don't beleaguer a point to try and get someone to change their mind about a movie so I'm glad you liked it.

My point is made in your last paragraph... "characters that can overshadow all of the cast." This should have been the reason to give these characters the send off they deserved. Dorothy Gale lives on because we didn't see a lightsaber shoved through her chest. Why did they make new Terminator movies?? because it's a great character. Why do they continue to make Indiana Jones movies?? because he's a great character. Why James Bond? Why Robin Hood? Why King Arthur? And then we come to Star Wars... Why make new Star Wars movies?? Well...... we don't want to overshadow the characters WE create with the established iconic characters that have been part of Pop Culture for 40 years, so we better kill them off.

I can live with Luke as a force ghost... I think most figured that would happen. I think most fans figured that would happen as he was protecting his friends (which sort of happened, but not really). Luke and Han could have been pop culture icons for another 40 years... but I fear with death... that's kind of final. We'll see if the new Solo movie does anything for Han or not????
I get what you’re saying, but I think George always intended Star Wars to be a generational story, and unfortunately our older heros need to be moved aside for the next generation. Its a real balancing act for sure. Even their onscreen send off can overwhelm a story, so the writer/ director is faced with an unusual challange. Hopefully they make a movie that you are satisfied with in the future.
 
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I get what you’re saying, but I think George always intended Star Wars to be a generational story, and unfortunately our older heros need to be moved aside for the next generation. Its a real balancing act for sure. Even their onscreen send off can overwhelm a story, so the writer/ director is faced with an unusual challange. Hopefully they make a movie that you are satisfied with in the future.
I liked Rogue One. It gave ANH some added weight and introduced some cool characters. The story wasn't perfect, but we already knew what was going to happen. Solo is a movie that no one asked for and I fear it's just going to attempt to overwrite another bunch of EU material that I really enjoyed, so not too optimistic about that one.
Obi Wan - if that gets done should be a good one, but it's going to require thinking outside the box. I think that whole movie should stay on Tatooine and focus on a smaller scale Western type movie that focuses on what we already know about Tatooine. Jabba, scum and villainy, Anchorhead, Tuskens, etc.
 
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1. I don't think we will see this kid from Canto Bite in the next movie. I don't think this triology is about him or that far into the future. If anything, possibly a brief reference at the end of IX and/or the next trilogy will take place in the farther future and could pull him in. I think this can be the perfect place for Rian Johnson to thrive. His creativity and need to do new things could serve well there. I just wish he'd stayed away from Luke Skywalker!

2. I'd love to see some discussion on all this grey jedi stuff. I don't know where the perfect place to do that is, but possibly here since it seems that's where everything is leading to. That poem from the Journal of the Whills is everywhere and I even expected more from this in TLJ but didn't see it at all, minus possibly that emblem in the jedi temple. Anyways, I'm confused on what a grey jedi really is? How is a grey jedi better than regular jedi? What made the jedi flawed/dogmatic? I know Ahsoka is now considered grey, but then in Rebels, her character is leading the Rebellion basically and seems no different that Kannan or whoever else. There's got to be more than they just don't follow the rules & authority of the current order. Snoke is not Sith but still is evil and uses the darkside. I couldn't see anything different from him and the Emperor really. Can grey use different powers? We saw Luke use force choke at beginning of ROTJ, and I kind of liked it. It didn't change who he was or what he stood for. So what does that make him? Are grey jedi more powerful? The Bendu character in Rebels tried to stay out of the fight between good and evil but didn't serve him well and got pulled into fight anyway. IMO people understand good vs bad. It resonates in everyone and everything almost. Maybe Im not understanding enough yet, and its just how the force is used. But I hope there is not an abandoning of right and wrong coming. So yeah, love to see some talk here on this and can possibly learn more on the grey because it seems where this end is going.
 
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2. you asked for it. :p LOL






qui-gon explains in TPM: the role the the Jedi Knight is to interpret the "will of the force",
and ENACT the will of the force, on the macroscopic world -- he explains this during his 'midichlorians' speech to anakin on the landing platform.

qui-gon TRIED to make the Council 'follow the will of the force' -- but Mace & Yoda physically rolled their eyes at him... why?

because: the Jedi Order was sworn to follow the will of the people (even when the people were corrupted by the politics of Fear);
they ignored the will of the force, and heeded ONLY the will of the senate (even when the senate was ruled by a Sith Lord).*

this caused imbalance in the force.

-===-

qui-gon reveals in TPM :
- a jedi who follows the "will of the force" brings balance to the force -- and is rewarded with immortality (like religion).
- a "Jedi Order" who follows the will of Evil/Corrupt politicians brings IMbalance to the force -- and is summarily destroyed by the Chosen One.

* for over a thousand generations, the Jedi Order EXISTED, to enact the will of the SENATE.
they forsook the will of the force -- they actually went so far as to PREVENT the individual "Jedi Knights", from acting out the will of the force (as we saw in TPM with qui-gon)
--> THIS caused imbalance in the force: the very existence of a "Jedi Order" with POLITICAL ties to the Senate.

(the existence of the "Order" (being inextricably tied to the senate) is the very mechanism which allowed the Sith to take over the galaxy --
this ALLOWED a "sith lord" to take COMMAND of the Jedi Knights (!) to control BOTH sides of the force (!) IMBALANCE much!? LOL).

-===-

the ONLY solution was 'separation of church and state':
the force responded , in SELF_DEFENSE , and spawned the Chosen One :
to wipe out ALL force-users who were ignoring the will of the force.

including: the younglings in the temple; the Sith; AND the political institution called "jedi order"..
..the Jedi Order were sworn to IGNORE the "will of the force" -- for over a thousand generations -- their allegiance was to 'democracy'.
(recall: at the beginning of the PT, they were government lapdogs, going on "Secret Missions" for Chancellor Vallorum).

..they were sworn to uphold the will of a 'senate', which was SHOWN to be completely dysfunctional in the movie canon itself.
(in those senate-chamber scenes, which nobody likes to watch, and therefore ignores as a 'plot point').


-===-


at the end of ROTJ, Luke has been taught a different lesson:

"let go your conscious self" and "let the force guide your actions" -- aka: follow the will of the force.

--> when ALL force users in the galaxy are following the will of the force again,
THIS marks the "return of the jedi", and brings balance to the force.

-=====================-

now: to answer your question:

the EU defined a "gray jedi" as one who disobeyed the council...
...BUT... the "council" were taking their orders from a freaking SITH LORD. LOL!!

in the end, qui-gon's mantra, WAS the path-to-immortality. his WAS the "correct" path.
(aka: "follow the will of the force").

this means: the Jedi Order was wrong... and "the difference,
is only made right, by the resolving of gray through refined Jedi sight".

(meaning: the individual jedi "Knights" MUST be allowed to interpret the Will of the Force, FOR THEMSELVES).

(like Qui-Gon).

:p

cheers!
 
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2. you asked for it. :p LOL
qui-gon explains in TPM: the role the the Jedi Knight is to interpret the "will of the force",
and ENACT the will of the force, on the macroscopic world -- he explains this during his 'midichlorians' speech to anakin on the landing platform.
qui-gon TRIED to make the Council 'follow the will of the force' -- but Mace & Yoda physically rolled their eyes at him... why?
because: the Jedi Order was sworn to follow the will of the people (even when the people were corrupted by the politics of Fear);
they ignored the will of the force, and heeded ONLY the will of the senate (even when the senate was ruled by a Sith Lord).*
this caused imbalance in the force.
-===-
qui-gon reveals in TPM :
- a jedi who follows the "will of the force" brings balance to the force -- and is rewarded with immortality (like religion).
- a "Jedi Order" who follows the will of Evil/Corrupt politicians brings IMbalance to the force -- and is summarily destroyed by the Chosen One.
* for over a thousand generations, the Jedi Order EXISTED, to enact the will of the SENATE.
they forsook the will of the force -- they actually went so far as to PREVENT the individual "Jedi Knights", from acting out the will of the force (as we saw in TPM with qui-gon)
--> THIS caused imbalance in the force: the very existence of a "Jedi Order" with POLITICAL ties to the Senate.
(the existence of the "Order" (being inextricably tied to the senate) is the very mechanism which allowed the Sith to take over the galaxy --
this ALLOWED a "sith lord" to take COMMAND of the Jedi Knights (!) to control BOTH sides of the force (!) IMBALANCE much!? LOL).
-===-
the ONLY solution was 'separation of church and state':
the force responded , in SELF_DEFENSE , and spawned the Chosen One :
to wipe out ALL force-users who were ignoring the will of the force.
including: the younglings in the temple; the Sith; AND the political institution called "jedi order"..
..the Jedi Order were sworn to IGNORE the "will of the force" -- for over a thousand generations -- their allegiance was to 'democracy'.
(recall: at the beginning of the PT, they were government lapdogs, going on "Secret Missions" for Chancellor Vallorum).
..they were sworn to uphold the will of a 'senate', which was SHOWN to be completely dysfunctional in the movie canon itself.
(in those senate-chamber scenes, which nobody likes to watch, and therefore ignores as a 'plot point').
-===-
at the end of ROTJ, Luke has been taught a different lesson:
"let go your conscious self" and "let the force guide your actions" -- aka: follow the will of the force.
--> when ALL force users in the galaxy are following the will of the force again,
THIS marks the "return of the jedi", and brings balance to the force.
-=====================-
now: to answer your question:
the EU defined a "gray jedi" as one who disobeyed the council...
...BUT... the "council" were taking their orders from a freaking SITH LORD. LOL!!
in the end, qui-gon's mantra, WAS the path-to-immortality. his WAS the "correct" path.
(aka: "follow the will of the force").
this means: the Jedi Order was wrong... and "the difference,
is only made right, by the resolving of gray through refined Jedi sight".
(meaning: the individual jedi "Knights" MUST be allowed to interpret the Will of the Force, FOR THEMSELVES).
(like Qui-Gon).
I don't care what they call them, Grey? Fuchsia? Ecru? Paisley? Will of the Force = Jedi to me.

I like your description here though.
 
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2. I'd love to see some discussion on all this grey jedi stuff. I don't know where the perfect place to do that is, but possibly here since it seems that's where everything is leading to. That poem from the Journal of the Whills is everywhere and I even expected more from this in TLJ but didn't see it at all, minus possibly that emblem in the jedi temple. Anyways, I'm confused on what a grey jedi really is? How is a grey jedi better than regular jedi? What made the jedi flawed/dogmatic? I know Ahsoka is now considered grey, but then in Rebels, her character is leading the Rebellion basically and seems no different that Kannan or whoever else. There's got to be more than they just don't follow the rules & authority of the current order. Snoke is not Sith but still is evil and uses the darkside. I couldn't see anything different from him and the Emperor really. Can grey use different powers? We saw Luke use force choke at beginning of ROTJ, and I kind of liked it. It didn't change who he was or what he stood for. So what does that make him? Are grey jedi more powerful? The Bendu character in Rebels tried to stay out of the fight between good and evil but didn't serve him well and got pulled into fight anyway. IMO people understand good vs bad. It resonates in everyone and everything almost. Maybe Im not understanding enough yet, and its just how the force is used. But I hope there is not an abandoning of right and wrong coming. So yeah, love to see some talk here on this and can possibly learn more on the grey because it seems where this end is going.
I grew up with the OT, so when SW had its resurgence begin in the early '90s, I also read everything. Comics, novels, RPG, I read early Internet discussion, etc. ...

I say that to point out that I think all this "grey Jedi" stuff is fairly recent. What I recall from discussions back then is the term generally popped up when people wanted a basically "good" character, who could also do all the fun powers the Sith had, like Force CHoke and Force lightning.

That, to me, always betrayed the spirit by which we were introduced to these powers in the first place, though. Yoda spoke of using the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack, and what were things like choking and lightning other than offensive uses meant to inflict harm.

You yourself just said how you liked when Luke force-choked the gamorreans, but I really think the intent there was not to say "look, Luke is powerful enough that he can do this, now", but rather "look, Luke is getting closer to the Dark Side and following Vader's path."

As Yoda also said "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will."

In other words, you play with the Dark Side once, no big deal, you're still basically the same. No problem to just use it this once more, because this guy I'm fighting is really bad, etc., etc. Eventually, possibly without even realizing it, the Dark Side completely warps the persons character, that person is now addicted to using the Dark Side to their own ends, rather than using the Light Side to serve the Will of the Force.

The way I've always understood it, is basically you can't have a "grey" Jedi (if we define "grey" as being able to use the Dark Side powers but still be "good"), because eventually, that "grey" Jedi will go Dark.

In terms of Ahsoka, she may call herself "grey" because she left the Order, but so long as she still follows the Will of the Force and avoids the Dark Side, despite not receiving her official "graduation ceremony", I would say she is still just a Jedi.

So, you also ask what made the Jedi flawed/dogmatic. Serving the Will of the Force requires a narrow path, the "Code" was probably created to help them avoid any potential Dark Side use or conflicts that might set them off the path of serving/hearing the Will of the Force.

However, eventually the code became a means to an end in its own right. They followed the code, because that's what Jedi did, but they began to forget why it was so important to follow the code. So decades/centuries prior to TPM, this is probably what, as Cobalt has pointed out, led them to allow themselves to be servants of the government, rather than servants of the Force.

Now, I'm going to disagree with Cobalt here:
"the individual jedi "Knights" MUST be allowed to interpret the Will of the Force, FOR THEMSELVES"

Well, no, because that leads to relativism, and what happens when one Jedi says he believes X must happen and another says Y must happen in order to serve the Will of the Force?

It's not about interpreting for themselves, but rather maintaining the proper focus and connection to the Force so that the Jedi can truly "hear" its Will. Rather than, for example, saying "we serve the people, the people elected the government, the government asked us to do X, so therefore X must be the Will of the Force."

Being servants of the Force would necessarily put them at odds, at times, with the will of the government, or even the Jedi Council (if the Council itself is corrupted and not in tune with the Will of the Force), as illustrated by Qui-Gon.

However, I have not been keeping up with Rebels or current literature, and I'm not so sure what is going on by legitamizing the concept of a "grey Jedi", anymore. Part of the problem is Lucas never satisfactorily explained some of these intricacies, particularly what is meant by Balance, and personally, I don't trust the current crop at Lucasfilm to interpret it in a way that matches Lucas' original intention.
 
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^^
I should be clear, when I said "current crop" I was mainly referring to the likes of Kennedy, Abrams, Johnson, etc.


I know Filoni has worked on CW, currently works on Rebels, and worked directly with Lucas. However, I didn't agree with every creative decision during CW. Haven't been keeping up with Rebels.
Still, it would depend on what he said and how he defended it.
 
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Thanks guys for some of the thoughts, I think that helps see some underlining themes that ran thru the PT & OT. But how does this control the ending of the ST story? How does "the resolving of the grey by refined jedi sight" play out? Seems that's the story line somehow? Kylo & Rey somehow move to a center of balance? What would that look like? Guess for me the more they seem to want to do something different with SW, the more it seems the same...for better or worse.
 
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I think there may also be some confusion. A lot of people seem to think someone is a Jedi simply because they're using the Force, and anyone that does is a Jedi.
I think if they did a Movie centered around a non Jedi Force user, and explained the inner workings of that relationship. It could be quite interesting. The Jedi are simply an institution that embraces the Force, and are sometimes tempted by a so-called Darkside. Yet there has always been a belief that one could balance both, that there truly is no light or dark. Only the intentions of the user are good or evil. And of course since it's a movie, that is always the theme Dark equals bad light is good. So I welcome a true "balance" story. I also wouldn't mind a "Rogue Jedi movie centered on Quinlan Vos. We've seen so much focus on Jedi, and why they shouldn't have feeling etc. for fear of teh Darkside. lol So a gray Jedi could be a fresh take on it.

However, I'm not sure I could abide the nonsense that Disney is making these stories into. I think I'd rather have the old EU take on Gray Jedi or non Jedi Force users.
 
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True on several points. I loved Quinlan Vos from the old Dark Horse comic series. One of the few series I read from beginning to end. On the flip side I hated what they did to him in CW TV series. I loved a lot of that show but this was a character that they messed up on greatly. And I always wondered what happened to him after events of ROTS. So for me that would be an amazing idea. But like you said too, with Disney we don't know what they'll do. They have the reputation now to take characters and burn them to the ground. So not sure if its good or not.:confused: I would think they would pick Ahsoka first though if they were to go in a direction like that for a movie.
 
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As Yoda also said "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will."

In other words, you play with the Dark Side once, no big deal, you're still basically the same. No problem to just use it this once more, because this guy I'm fighting is really bad, etc., etc. Eventually, possibly without even realizing it, the Dark Side completely warps the persons character, that person is now addicted to using the Dark Side to their own ends, rather than using the Light Side to serve the Will of the Force.
This is something I've always wanted to be made clearer. To Yoda the Dark Side would seem to be like an infection, where once it beings the user has no control over it. And the Emperor's plan to turn Luke seems to back that up, since apparently he expects Luke to fall to the Dark Side just by lashing out in anger the one time.

But by the end of RotJ Luke proves Yoda wrong, showing that that someone can come back from the Dark Side by saving Anakin. It's a subtle but significant distinction, because one way makes turning to the Dark Side a choice the user makes, while the other makes the user more a victim of a malevolent force.

Now, I'm going to disagree with Cobalt here:
"the individual jedi "Knights" MUST be allowed to interpret the Will of the Force, FOR THEMSELVES"

Well, no, because that leads to relativism, and what happens when one Jedi says he believes X must happen and another says Y must happen in order to serve the Will of the Force?

It's not about interpreting for themselves, but rather maintaining the proper focus and connection to the Force so that the Jedi can truly "hear" its Will. Rather than, for example, saying "we serve the people, the people elected the government, the government asked us to do X, so therefore X must be the Will of the Force."
I sincerely hope this is not the case. "Good" is very subjective, and conflict over what the right thing to do actually is could make for some very interesting stories - especially in what is, at its core, a morality play. For instance, if a Jedi does the wrong thing for the right reason, is that a path to the Dark Side? Lucas always defined the primary difference between the Light and Dark Sides as coming down to selfishness vs selflessness. So what happens if a Jedi was to turn against the order, even going to so far as to take up arms against them for completely selfless reasons while doing what they believe is right? Is that still a path to the Dark Side?

If being a Jedi is completely about listening to the Force and doing what it wants, the stories become less about the people, and more about the Force - which robs the stories of their significance.
 
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True on several points. I loved Quinlan Vos from the old Dark Horse comic series. One of the few series I read from beginning to end. On the flip side I hated what they did to him in CW TV series. I loved a lot of that show but this was a character that they messed up on greatly. And I always wondered what happened to him after events of ROTS. So for me that would be an amazing idea. But like you said too, with Disney we don't know what they'll do. They have the reputation now to take characters and burn them to the ground. So not sure if its good or not.:confused: I would think they would pick Ahsoka first though if they were to go in a direction like that for a movie.
Check out Dark Disciple - it's one of the better canon books that continues his story.
 
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I don't really have interest in this next Disney pic, so I haven't read through any of this thread. Sorry if this has been mentioned already. My theory...

Do you think there will be a Skeksis and urRu(mystics) great conjunction and the end will be a urSkeks formation (or the equivalent)? They could call it Kylo-Rey. It could be a new gender and Disney could kill a few birds with one shard.
 
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^^^
Are you referring to me? If so, it's the first time I've ever been called that!

BTW, I'm fairly serious and I don't think my theory is too far off. Black+white = gray...similar to what we've seen in Henson's classic fairytale. Just because you may disagree with me and my views of Disney's SW, please don't mix up my brand of humor as being a troll.
 
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^^^
Are you referring to me? If so, it's the first time I've ever been called that!

BTW, I'm fairly serious and I don't think my theory is too far off. Black+white = gray...similar to what we've seen in Henson's classic fairytale. Just because you may disagree with me and my views of Disney's SW, please don't mix up my brand of humor as being a troll.
You start off by saying you have no interest in a movie, then expect to taken seriously when you have a "theory" about that movie. You then wrap it up with a well-placed, socially charged statement about gender politics.

"What, little old me? A troll? Perish the thought." Please.
 
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Calling it now - Ep.IX will flashback (or possibly open with) Han's death, him falling and landing and force ghost Luke being there when he dies.
 
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well-placed
Thanks for the complement.

After years of watching TWD, I stopped two episodes into this season. I still have theories on it though.
Am I serious about my theory? Why yes I am. Maybe not in the literal sense that there will be a physical melding of Kylo and Rey, hence "or the equivalent".
As for the gender politics. Well, some believe Disney put it in there, some don't. So I made a quip about it. Troll!! If you can't find the meaning behind the humor, that's not my problem. Is it too early to joke about OJ Simpson? Pa-lees.
 
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Thanks for the complement.

After years of watching TWD, I stopped two episodes into this season. I still have theories on it though.
Am I serious about my theory? Why yes I am. Maybe not in the literal sense that there will be a physical melding of Kylo and Rey, hence "or the equivalent".
As for the gender politics. Well, some believe Disney put it in there, some don't. So I made a quip about it. Troll!! If you can't find the meaning behind the humor, that's not my problem. Is it too early to joke about OJ Simpson? Pa-lees.
Oh, so it was a "quip"? OK, I see what happened now. I've always been under the apparently mistaken impression that quips were generally funny, clever, or witty. What you said was none of those things so, you can understand where my confusion came from.

And I guess I was totally off base when I assumed you were intentionally bringing up what you obviously know is a contentious subject around here in a rather transparent and pathetic attempt to stir up some s***. You know, like a troll would. But you're not a troll, so it couldn't have been that. Right? Evidently it was nothing more than a timely bon mot. How embarrassing for me.
 
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