I think it'll take time for TLJ to sink in but yeah it happens pretty much with every SW film that gets released.Lol. I think its funny that we are posting on a forum where the current film is being labeled the worst star wars movie, and there is a thread titled The force awakens is the worst movie ever made!
I keep forgetting the cycle of star wars complaints starts over with each new film.
I won't pay money to see this in the cinema again. I'll probably watch it next on Blu-Ray, but I won't be rushing out to get the BD when it first comes out.agreed, I suggest seeing it at least 2X.
I'm a sucker.... I'll go see Ep IX in the theatre. After TFA I thought "ok, I'm not going to go into TLJ with high expectations and all of these story points that I think will happen"... That was a lie. So far I've ruined TFA and TLJ with my own baggage. I SWEAR not to do that this time. There really isn't anything to speculate about now (unless you think Kylo was lying about Rey's parentage)I won't pay money to see this in the cinema again. I'll probably watch it next on Blu-Ray, but I won't be rushing out to get the BD when it first comes out.
I'll see E IX in the cinema, but I don't really care what happens in the film, at this point. Killing off Luke pretty much destroyed TLJ for me. I was ok with the portrayal of Luke until they killed him. Personally, my feeling is that Luke would have never given up the rebuilding the Jedi, so I garee with Hamill. That's just my opinion, so it shouldn't be seen as an attack for those that liked the film.
My hope for E IX is that all of the new main characters die and we can move on from there. We can always get a new trilogy with that kid from Canto Bight, right?
I think you just pointed out the biggest problem facing the new directors. The OT cast overshadow any of the new characters, and it makes storytelling difficult. JJ solved it by having Luke show up at the end, and Ford wanted Han to die, so that takes up time in the movie. He did a good job balancing things out though. I think Rian had an even more difficult task of trying to create drama where Luke doesnt just come in and solve all the problems. How do you create conflict when one of your characters is basically space Jesus? You have to have him be preoccupied with something, in this case it was his own redemption arc.Yeah, I have "0" expectations for E IX, so I can see it without wondering if thex'll kill off one of my favorite characters or not. Luke and Han are already gone, they'll have to deal with Leia somehow, so if they kill off Chewie, R2, 3PO (and maybe Lando if they bring him back), it will just fall in line with what they've done so far.
As for the new generation, I don't have any connection to them at all. I thought Poe was great in both films and all, but not enough to really care about the character like Luke. I really liked Rey in TFA, but I was disappointed in her in TLJ, so atm I don't really care who her parents really are (I think Kylo doesn't really know) nor do I care whether she's another Anakin or child of the force.
For me, E IX will be a film to go see, but I don't see myself getting excited about it. I wasn't impressed with JJ's TFA, so I have low expectations for E IX knocking my socks off with him at the helm.
Oddly enough, I think the ending with the kids on Canto Bight would have been a better ending for the ST and not the 2nd of 3 films.
Only in Star Wars is an extremely popular character a "problem". I understood why Luke wasn't in the first one... it just goes without saying that they needed to promote new characters. They really should have left Han and Leia out of it as well because Han immediately became the best character as soon as he entered the Falcon.I think you just pointed out the biggest problem facing the new directors. The OT cast overshadow any of the new characters, and it makes storytelling difficult. JJ solved it by having Luke show up at the end, and Ford wanted Han to die, so that takes up time in the movie. He did a good job balancing things out though. I think Rian had an even more difficult task of trying to create drama where Luke doesnt just come in and solve all the problems. How do you create conflict when one of your characters is basically space Jesus? You have to have him be preoccupied with something, in this case it was his own redemption arc.
Overall, I think JJ and Rian did what they had to do. I know its not for everybody. I think later generations will benefit from these films, because they’ll be able to watch it without the history that we all had.
Harrison wanted to have Han killed off. Its not like they had to do it, but they would’ve needed to explain why he wasn’t in the next two movies, which would be weird.Only in Star Wars is an extremely popular character a "problem". I understood why Luke wasn't in the first one... it just goes without saying that they needed to promote new characters. They really should have left Han and Leia out of it as well because Han immediately became the best character as soon as he entered the Falcon.
I couldn't disagree more that JJ and Rian did what they had to do. They did what they (and Lucasfilm/Kennedy) wanted to do. TLJ says it very clearly, "Let go of the past... Kill it if you have to". So they killed it. There are hundreds of ways they could have gone with this trilogy and not alienated long time fans while bringing in new ones. They are betting on this new crop being interesting enough. Unfortunately they forgot to give us a reason to care. Kylo killed one of the most iconic characters in movie history and Rey didn't really have to do anything to gain her status. Luke developed over 3 movies. So far Rey has gone from nobody to nobody with a lightsaber and force powers. Finn and Poe have been almost entirely wasted... mainly used only when the plot needed some "extra" heroes.
First scene of Ep IX - Millenium Falcon Blows Up with Chewie, C-3PO and R2 on board.....
With the way these films have been going, they might just do exactly that. Oddly enough, I'd stick around until the end of the film to see how it all ended without those OTers....and Leia
I don't beleaguer a point to try and get someone to change their mind about a movie so I'm glad you liked it.Harrison wanted to have Han killed off. Its not like they had to do it, but they would’ve needed to explain why he wasn’t in the next two movies, which would be weird.
Luke was the hero in the OT. He’s the symbolic hero of the new generation, and now, of all time.
I understand many fans hated the direction that they chose, but some fans, like myself, feel the movies are better served telling a compelling story, and unfortunately your not left with much if you have characters that can overshadow all of the cast. I always imagined Star Wars to be about three generations. This is the final act, the stakes have to be written higher, people have to die, and our heros have to face the toughest challenges yet. It doesnt work if the people you are rooting for are infallible.
Just my opinion, of course.
I get what you’re saying, but I think George always intended Star Wars to be a generational story, and unfortunately our older heros need to be moved aside for the next generation. Its a real balancing act for sure. Even their onscreen send off can overwhelm a story, so the writer/ director is faced with an unusual challange. Hopefully they make a movie that you are satisfied with in the future.I don't beleaguer a point to try and get someone to change their mind about a movie so I'm glad you liked it.
My point is made in your last paragraph... "characters that can overshadow all of the cast." This should have been the reason to give these characters the send off they deserved. Dorothy Gale lives on because we didn't see a lightsaber shoved through her chest. Why did they make new Terminator movies?? because it's a great character. Why do they continue to make Indiana Jones movies?? because he's a great character. Why James Bond? Why Robin Hood? Why King Arthur? And then we come to Star Wars... Why make new Star Wars movies?? Well...... we don't want to overshadow the characters WE create with the established iconic characters that have been part of Pop Culture for 40 years, so we better kill them off.
I can live with Luke as a force ghost... I think most figured that would happen. I think most fans figured that would happen as he was protecting his friends (which sort of happened, but not really). Luke and Han could have been pop culture icons for another 40 years... but I fear with death... that's kind of final. We'll see if the new Solo movie does anything for Han or not????
I liked Rogue One. It gave ANH some added weight and introduced some cool characters. The story wasn't perfect, but we already knew what was going to happen. Solo is a movie that no one asked for and I fear it's just going to attempt to overwrite another bunch of EU material that I really enjoyed, so not too optimistic about that one.I get what you’re saying, but I think George always intended Star Wars to be a generational story, and unfortunately our older heros need to be moved aside for the next generation. Its a real balancing act for sure. Even their onscreen send off can overwhelm a story, so the writer/ director is faced with an unusual challange. Hopefully they make a movie that you are satisfied with in the future.
I don't care what they call them, Grey? Fuchsia? Ecru? Paisley? Will of the Force = Jedi to me.2. you asked for it. LOL
qui-gon explains in TPM: the role the the Jedi Knight is to interpret the "will of the force",
and ENACT the will of the force, on the macroscopic world -- he explains this during his 'midichlorians' speech to anakin on the landing platform.
qui-gon TRIED to make the Council 'follow the will of the force' -- but Mace & Yoda physically rolled their eyes at him... why?
because: the Jedi Order was sworn to follow the will of the people (even when the people were corrupted by the politics of Fear);
they ignored the will of the force, and heeded ONLY the will of the senate (even when the senate was ruled by a Sith Lord).*
this caused imbalance in the force.
qui-gon reveals in TPM :
- a jedi who follows the "will of the force" brings balance to the force -- and is rewarded with immortality (like religion).
- a "Jedi Order" who follows the will of Evil/Corrupt politicians brings IMbalance to the force -- and is summarily destroyed by the Chosen One.
* for over a thousand generations, the Jedi Order EXISTED, to enact the will of the SENATE.
they forsook the will of the force -- they actually went so far as to PREVENT the individual "Jedi Knights", from acting out the will of the force (as we saw in TPM with qui-gon)
--> THIS caused imbalance in the force: the very existence of a "Jedi Order" with POLITICAL ties to the Senate.
(the existence of the "Order" (being inextricably tied to the senate) is the very mechanism which allowed the Sith to take over the galaxy --
this ALLOWED a "sith lord" to take COMMAND of the Jedi Knights (!) to control BOTH sides of the force (!) IMBALANCE much!? LOL).
the ONLY solution was 'separation of church and state':
the force responded , in SELF_DEFENSE , and spawned the Chosen One :
to wipe out ALL force-users who were ignoring the will of the force.
including: the younglings in the temple; the Sith; AND the political institution called "jedi order"..
..the Jedi Order were sworn to IGNORE the "will of the force" -- for over a thousand generations -- their allegiance was to 'democracy'.
(recall: at the beginning of the PT, they were government lapdogs, going on "Secret Missions" for Chancellor Vallorum).
..they were sworn to uphold the will of a 'senate', which was SHOWN to be completely dysfunctional in the movie canon itself.
(in those senate-chamber scenes, which nobody likes to watch, and therefore ignores as a 'plot point').
at the end of ROTJ, Luke has been taught a different lesson:
"let go your conscious self" and "let the force guide your actions" -- aka: follow the will of the force.
--> when ALL force users in the galaxy are following the will of the force again,
THIS marks the "return of the jedi", and brings balance to the force.
now: to answer your question:
the EU defined a "gray jedi" as one who disobeyed the council...
...BUT... the "council" were taking their orders from a freaking SITH LORD. LOL!!
in the end, qui-gon's mantra, WAS the path-to-immortality. his WAS the "correct" path.
(aka: "follow the will of the force").
this means: the Jedi Order was wrong... and "the difference,
is only made right, by the resolving of gray through refined Jedi sight".
(meaning: the individual jedi "Knights" MUST be allowed to interpret the Will of the Force, FOR THEMSELVES).
I grew up with the OT, so when SW had its resurgence begin in the early '90s, I also read everything. Comics, novels, RPG, I read early Internet discussion, etc. ...2. I'd love to see some discussion on all this grey jedi stuff. I don't know where the perfect place to do that is, but possibly here since it seems that's where everything is leading to. That poem from the Journal of the Whills is everywhere and I even expected more from this in TLJ but didn't see it at all, minus possibly that emblem in the jedi temple. Anyways, I'm confused on what a grey jedi really is? How is a grey jedi better than regular jedi? What made the jedi flawed/dogmatic? I know Ahsoka is now considered grey, but then in Rebels, her character is leading the Rebellion basically and seems no different that Kannan or whoever else. There's got to be more than they just don't follow the rules & authority of the current order. Snoke is not Sith but still is evil and uses the darkside. I couldn't see anything different from him and the Emperor really. Can grey use different powers? We saw Luke use force choke at beginning of ROTJ, and I kind of liked it. It didn't change who he was or what he stood for. So what does that make him? Are grey jedi more powerful? The Bendu character in Rebels tried to stay out of the fight between good and evil but didn't serve him well and got pulled into fight anyway. IMO people understand good vs bad. It resonates in everyone and everything almost. Maybe Im not understanding enough yet, and its just how the force is used. But I hope there is not an abandoning of right and wrong coming. So yeah, love to see some talk here on this and can possibly learn more on the grey because it seems where this end is going.
This is something I've always wanted to be made clearer. To Yoda the Dark Side would seem to be like an infection, where once it beings the user has no control over it. And the Emperor's plan to turn Luke seems to back that up, since apparently he expects Luke to fall to the Dark Side just by lashing out in anger the one time.As Yoda also said "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will."
In other words, you play with the Dark Side once, no big deal, you're still basically the same. No problem to just use it this once more, because this guy I'm fighting is really bad, etc., etc. Eventually, possibly without even realizing it, the Dark Side completely warps the persons character, that person is now addicted to using the Dark Side to their own ends, rather than using the Light Side to serve the Will of the Force.
I sincerely hope this is not the case. "Good" is very subjective, and conflict over what the right thing to do actually is could make for some very interesting stories - especially in what is, at its core, a morality play. For instance, if a Jedi does the wrong thing for the right reason, is that a path to the Dark Side? Lucas always defined the primary difference between the Light and Dark Sides as coming down to selfishness vs selflessness. So what happens if a Jedi was to turn against the order, even going to so far as to take up arms against them for completely selfless reasons while doing what they believe is right? Is that still a path to the Dark Side?Now, I'm going to disagree with Cobalt here:
"the individual jedi "Knights" MUST be allowed to interpret the Will of the Force, FOR THEMSELVES"
Well, no, because that leads to relativism, and what happens when one Jedi says he believes X must happen and another says Y must happen in order to serve the Will of the Force?
It's not about interpreting for themselves, but rather maintaining the proper focus and connection to the Force so that the Jedi can truly "hear" its Will. Rather than, for example, saying "we serve the people, the people elected the government, the government asked us to do X, so therefore X must be the Will of the Force."
Check out Dark Disciple - it's one of the better canon books that continues his story.True on several points. I loved Quinlan Vos from the old Dark Horse comic series. One of the few series I read from beginning to end. On the flip side I hated what they did to him in CW TV series. I loved a lot of that show but this was a character that they messed up on greatly. And I always wondered what happened to him after events of ROTS. So for me that would be an amazing idea. But like you said too, with Disney we don't know what they'll do. They have the reputation now to take characters and burn them to the ground. So not sure if its good or not. I would think they would pick Ahsoka first though if they were to go in a direction like that for a movie.
You start off by saying you have no interest in a movie, then expect to taken seriously when you have a "theory" about that movie. You then wrap it up with a well-placed, socially charged statement about gender politics.^^^
Are you referring to me? If so, it's the first time I've ever been called that!
BTW, I'm fairly serious and I don't think my theory is too far off. Black+white = gray...similar to what we've seen in Henson's classic fairytale. Just because you may disagree with me and my views of Disney's SW, please don't mix up my brand of humor as being a troll.
Thanks for the complement.well-placed
Oh, so it was a "quip"? OK, I see what happened now. I've always been under the apparently mistaken impression that quips were generally funny, clever, or witty. What you said was none of those things so, you can understand where my confusion came from.Thanks for the complement.
After years of watching TWD, I stopped two episodes into this season. I still have theories on it though.
Am I serious about my theory? Why yes I am. Maybe not in the literal sense that there will be a physical melding of Kylo and Rey, hence "or the equivalent".
As for the gender politics. Well, some believe Disney put it in there, some don't. So I made a quip about it. Troll!! If you can't find the meaning behind the humor, that's not my problem. Is it too early to joke about OJ Simpson? Pa-lees.