S3 TCW #20 - CITADEL RESCUE - 03/11/11

Chris Wyman

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The Clone Wars Episode Guide: Citadel Rescue

"Without honor, victory is hollow."

Synopsis: After their ship and the only way off-planet is destroyed, Anakin and Obi-Wan must lead the escaped prisoners across Lola Sayu's perilous landscape as Plo Koon leads a Republic strike force through the Separatist defenses.

Director: Steward Lee
Writer: Matt Michnovetz
Key Characters: Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Ahsoka Tano, R2-D2, Osi Sobeck, Plo Koon, Adi Gallia, Saesee Tiin, Captain Tarkin, Clone Captain Rex, Clone Commander Cody, Fives
Key Locales: Lola Sayu, Coruscant



Jovial Jay Shepard and Chris Wyman from the ForceCast's Jedi Journals are on the panel for our discussion of the final chapter in the Citadel trilogy, Citadel Rescue.

Click here to listen!

Panelists:
Jason Swank
Jimmy Mac
Jovial Jay Shepard
Chris Wyman
 
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I've become friends with the chancellor myself too.
Really.
Just saying.
 
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One of the best episodes of the series by a mile. The Nightsisters, and Mortis trilogy were both cool but this felt so much like STAR FREAKIN’ WARS!!!! Loved it. I was continually suppressed by this episode. Several times I was like…OMG I can’t believe they would go there!

SPOILER WARNING BELOW!!!






RIP master Piell.
If his death made me tear up I know I would freakin’ lose it if they were to ever kill Ahsoka.
 
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Fantastic episode! And a very poignant end for Master Piell.

BUT.....how in the world are they going to retcon his death in Coruscant Nights? I wasn't a huge fan of the book, but still. Changing something like an established character death is a big deal.
 
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Another great Clone Wars trilogy
Secrets revealed indeed...
For some reason it didn't click in my head what this trilogy was really about till the last scene. At first I was like oh cool there gonna give a mild explanation to how coruscant got invaded so quickly in EP 3.
But then...
It occurs to me that this trilogy says so much more. We can assume Yoda will eventually cave and give Palpatine the information Asoka posses. The chancellor will then turn it over to dooku in order to set up his fake capture. Obvious right???

However, Now we know that the Jedi are well aware of the fact that Palpatine is the only one in possession of these routes. He had to be the one to give the intel to the seps. Is this what finally convinces Yoda and mace that the Chancellor is a traitor? Is this why the push Anakin to watch him? Through the hard work of this show the prequels are starting to make sense. I love it!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Great episode.

The battle with the beasts and the droids was spectacular and truly shows not only that the animation abilities have progressed, but also that the crews ability to choreograph such scenes has increased dramatically. Slightly disappointed that Master Piell was killed during his first arc however I must say that his death was both dramatic and fitting; I’m glad he went out in such fashion. The music, the ‘cremation’ and the overall vibe was perhaps the most fitting and emotionally driven of the entire series. Forget Echo’s death – this is the one where I actually felt the emotion.

The space battle – this is the World War 2 inspired stuff we need to see more of. The cruisers dropping out of hyperspace, all the fighters lifting off, followed by enemy bombers flying low and damaging the Republic ships (all with the interior being damaged and the Wilhelm scream). I do wonder however – have we seem more than one ship in a hyperspace tunnel before?

FINALLY an Admiral with the classic German accent (might have been South-African, couldn’t quite tell) which looked like the quintessential Prussian Officer.

Tarkin definitely seems to be working in collaboration with the Chancellor. At this point I don’t necessarily think he knows Palpatine’s plans however it does seem the Chancellor is attempting to make him the ‘military Anakin’. I must admit however, Anakin and Tarkin seem to be making some pretty good points... but then again Obi-Wan made some good ones as well.


Regarding the whole ‘Old Republic’ debate:

It seems that the lines from AOTC have finally been given a canonical explanation as to why they conflict with Obi-Wan’s “for a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic”. Whether we like it or not it seems we are now dealing with two governments:

First Galactic Republic – c.25,000 BBY – 1,000 BBY
Second Galactic Republic – 1,000 BBY – 19 BBY

Galactic Empire – 19 BBY – 12 ABY

Third Galactic Republic – 4 ABY – Present (disregarding the Forth in the EU of course)

Personally I don’t see too much fault with this. It is essentially still one system, it simply underwent reforms and a ‘successor’ Republic was formed. This was, in fact, one of the things which bothered me about the whole ‘Old Republic’; I always thought it more plausible if it were split into two governments given the AOTC lines. I have always thought a distinction should be made. As I said this is not uncommon in history with the French Republics being the most contemporary example.

I don’t see how this is really that big of a change… it actually fixes one of the most glaring inconsistencies of the EU and films. The term ‘Old Republic’, at this point refers to the ‘First Republic’… by the time of the establishment of the Empire it is used to describe both the First and Second Republics collectively.

Furthermore, for anyone wondering, the only thing necessary to move from one state to its immediate successor state is a ‘dramatic’ constitutional change. So for the First Republic to be dissolved into the Second Republic there was obviously a constitutional change around 1000 BBY.

The same thing happened between the Forth and Fifth French Republics. In truth there was no real ‘fall of the government through war or revolution’ it was merely a significant constitutional change. I would imagine that is what has happened with the Republic.

It makes perfect sense… especially for a state which has supposedly existed for 25,000 years…

…in fact this new established ‘system’ seems to work better in my opinion… if not only because it fixed the glaring continuity issues…

Furthermore the Ruusan Reformations, by nature, should really signal in an entirely new state. The movement of powers, demilitarization and possible other reforms would have no doubt led to a new constitution… which would ‘require’ a new state…



Regarding the EU:

I don’t really mind. While, yes it would be frustrating if you read the books, Lucas has said many times that there are two separate ‘official’ universes. Unfortunately, this is one which is difficult to retcon (I hope the writers think of something) however I have always viewed – to me at least – the Lucas universe (films, TV, etc) to be the stuff ‘set in stone’ whilst the EU is stuff you can personally supplement it with (with Fan-stories)… I can understand the frustration; however it doesn’t bother me…

But then again I hope this doesn’t create another canon debate. To me all the Lucas stuff is the slab and nothing else… the EU and is the ‘extrapolated’ building on this slab and is the ‘other’ universe. To George it doesn’t really exist (can be blindly destroyed at will) and that is the ‘official’ stance of Lucas. To EU fans it is more definitive and that is the ‘separate universe’.

More simply there is the slab universe (Lucas’/The Father) and nothing else exists (Palpatine doesn’t get cloned, etc). Then there is the universe with the slab and ‘extrapolated building’… which by its very nature is convoluted in some ways and requires retcons frequently; this is the EU/Son universe. And finally there is the Fan/Holy Spirit universe which is what we personally think of as Star Wars.

-Indy
 
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I have the memory of a cabbage--was that the first time we saw Ahsoka fighting with two sabers?

Got to say that getting masticated like a dog's chew toy is not a very good way to go. I expected Piell's death, however I did not expect him to pass on the information. I thought he'd die before he got the chance. The rift between the Jedi and the Chancellor is much more apparent than I had previously thought. I am interested in further exploration of this division, especially how Palpatine works it.
 
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LOVED
- The general feel of the trilogy. The action, the visuals.
- More Sease Tin. He looks so real.
- Sobek's nervous eye twitch. Very Pink Panther-esque.
- Tarkin. He's so great. I love the one-liner he throws when Ahsoka saves him.
- Sobek's death. I liked him a lot, but i think his death just fitted well.

A LITTLE ANNOYED BY
- Ahsoka chattering when a dying Piell is trying to give her the coordinates. Ya ya, you lied, blah blah SHUT UP!
- Lava. You can't just rope dangle over lava. Tarkin should have been scortched alive. And did those crab-droids in the last escape scene come out of the lava???
- Another retcon. Bah, it makes me wanna stop reading books.

I did NOT like
- Piell getting the ceremony. What about the clones!!! They want to make us care about the troopers, yet they die like canon fodder. But when 1 Jedi dies, oh, let's stop and celebrate him. Booh!

- The entire mission makes no sense. They need to deliver the coordinates to the Jedi council, yet they communicate with them several times during the episode. Can't they just transmite them?
Sure, it could be intercepted... but then again, Tarkin, or Piell could die. Oh wait, he did!
 
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Interresting review.

BTW i forgot:
LIKES
This trilogy, for me, made droids dangerous again.
 
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Loved the episode and the entire arch. The ending conversation between Anakin an Tarkin wa great.
 
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Cool ending to a cool arc.

Sometimes I felt like there was a bit of action for action's sake, but again, the character moments and the parts that touched on the saga as a whole gave the episode more depth.

Not that I'm against action. Action scenes in TCW are so creative and exciting now. If you compare them to the early episodes from S1, it's like night and day. I would not be surprised at all if TCW took another shot at a big screen movie at some point.

Loved the anoobas. They were legitimately threatening, and they sounded cool too. The space battles were very cool, and as Eric said, I think we'd like to see more dog fights and space battles in general. One thing though; I don't think we got any shots of clone pilots. One of the great things about OT space battles were the very realistic chatter (cut the chatter...) between pilots. It personalizes them, and ramps up the tension when they're in danger.

Anyway, a very cool arc, if not as game-changing for me as the preceeding 'Nightsisters' and 'Mortis' arcs. Go Tarkin.
 
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I still cannot believe I'm reading people online saying "Even Piell died on Coruscant, end of story" or "I can't believe they botched continuity so bad. It's right there in Coruscant Nights!"

I want to slap them so much. Not hard, just repeatedly and fast.

I can't believe they let a dog kill a Jedi like a chew toy. I'm not saying it sucked or was awesome, I'm just saying in the scope of Jedi deaths one was from being mauled by a dog!

I'm just thinking, if I was a kid going through a Clone Wars/Star Wars picture book pointing and naming Jedi and how they died it's a weird one.

I have to add I was actually expecting him to be killed so it kind of ruined my viewing, wondering if every blaster bolt or jump was going to be it. I wish I could go into these episodes blind but I just don't have that kind of self-control. I wasn't really worried for him since I expected it; I was on EDGE! for Rex though.
 
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Cramer said:
I still cannot believe I'm reading people online saying "Even Piell died on Coruscant, end of story" or "I can't believe they botched continuity so bad. It's right there in Coruscant Nights!"

I want to slap them so much. Not hard, just repeatedly and fast.
This has been a continuing source of ire for me since the episode aired. Interestingly, a lot of the people who disagree with my "you're getting too emotionally invested" argument seem to assume that I'm an EU basher. (If they knew me at all, they'd know that I enjoyed the NJO, and if that isn't the mark of an EU lover, I don't know what is.)
 
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Eric_Geller said:
Cramer said:
I still cannot believe I'm reading people online saying "Even Piell died on Coruscant, end of story" or "I can't believe they botched continuity so bad. It's right there in Coruscant Nights!"

I want to slap them so much. Not hard, just repeatedly and fast.
This has been a continuing source of ire for me since the episode aired. Interestingly, a lot of the people who disagree with my "you're getting too emotionally invested" argument seem to assume that I'm an EU basher. (If they knew me at all, they'd know that I enjoyed the NJO, and if that isn't the mark of an EU lover, I don't know what is.)
Eric an EU basher? Did you say "Do you know who I am?"
 
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Cramer said:
Eric_Geller said:
Cramer said:
I still cannot believe I'm reading people online saying "Even Piell died on Coruscant, end of story" or "I can't believe they botched continuity so bad. It's right there in Coruscant Nights!"

I want to slap them so much. Not hard, just repeatedly and fast.
This has been a continuing source of ire for me since the episode aired. Interestingly, a lot of the people who disagree with my "you're getting too emotionally invested" argument seem to assume that I'm an EU basher. (If they knew me at all, they'd know that I enjoyed the NJO, and if that isn't the mark of an EU lover, I don't know what is.)
Eric an EU basher? Did you say "Do you know who I am?"
No, but that's a great idea! It's better if they're angry and confused!
 
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I mean, for Pete's sake people, I was the one who pushed Leland Chee to officially state Greedo's new birth year after Sphere of Influence (and after a heated discussion on The Clone Wars Roundtable)!
 
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Eric_Geller said:
I mean, for Pete's sake people, I was the one who pushed Leland Chee to officially state Greedo's new birth year after Sphere of Influence (and after a heated discussion on The Clone Wars Roundtable)!
Now you know how I feel. All I say is I think the story should come to an end at some point, the number of books should be scaled back, and new territory should be forged and people started chasing me with torches and pitchforks! Actually I get the same reaction whenever I see my relatives, friends, random strangers.

Another great episode. That's 9 great ones in a row. If they could take the best elements of these past 9 and could combine them into one story arc our heads would explode!

Scale still broken, will need a new one next season.
 
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Cramer said:
I still cannot believe I'm reading people online saying "Even Piell died on Coruscant, end of story" or "I can't believe they botched continuity so bad. It's right there in Coruscant Nights!"

I want to slap them so much. Not hard, just repeatedly and fast.
Part of me wishes that Jason just gives all those people a piece of his mind.
 
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Coruscant Nights?! Ha ha! There's a book called Coruscants Nights that people are insisting GL not only read, but consider when thinking about all future CW episodes? Come on...

If TCW contradicts itself or the movies, by all means, people should furrow their brows accordingly, but otherwise I think people need to realize that EU is really just cool Star Wars stuff that we can all enjoy between G-level SW material.

Cramer, let the soft but fast slapping commence.
 
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I think that certain EU stuff should be respected however. For instance Aayla Secura shouldn’t be ‘over written’, Quinlan Vos shouldn’t be unrecognizably changed and a vital character such as K’Kruhk should not be killed. I think anything with a major overarching significance to a major storyline(s) of the EU (such as K’Kruhk) should be respected. Whilst on the other hand I think minor storylines (such as Coruscant Nights) have, unfortunately, every right to be written over by Lucas.

So I think that, obviously, there should be consistency with the ‘Georges Universe’ (films, TV shows, certain EU)... there should be respect given to vital aspects of the EU... but minor, rather insignificant storylines, are ‘rightfully’ at the mercy of Lucas...

Obviously I think that the HIGH CANON of Lucas prevails over all of the EU LESSER CANON... however I do think that certain respects need to be made to the EU as a whole so as to not completely illegitimize the EU (which would damage Lucas’s marketing, etc). By all means they can change what they like (and I am fine with that)... however the EU should be respected none-the-less when they delve into significant plot devices (characters, etc) essential to the EU... so far the series has done a fantastic job at doing this.
 
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My E-U stance.
GL can do whatever he wants.

However , i think that it can't come at a worst time.
The E-U is, currently, not in it's best phase. It is a hard time for reading fans, and many are dropping the EU, for various reason:
- Too many books are release too fast.
- The quality of the stories/writting has dropped.
- The storylines are too long and have a bad flow between books.
- The reader is forced into multi-media with e-books and comics.

So, when the Clone Wars just adds to the injury by making the stories meaningless, i feel like the timing couldn't be more worst.
 
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Actually, his comment about TFN and your brainwash (lol) comes down to Jimmy's point: If you are not happy with the franchise, if you are not satisfied with the products beeing sold, well, stop buying/watching/supporting it.

The only true way one can protest is with his wallet.
But i get a feeling that the writer off that note will STILL watch the next Clone Wars episode, he'll STILL buy the next EU book, and he'll STILL go see PM in 3D.
Heck, by even discussing the issue with other fans, he gives visibility to various Star Wars sites and forums.


IF YOU DONT LIKE WHAT GL DOES, THEN ACT ON IT, AND LEAVE!
 
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Eric,

That e-mail was truly hilarious! Totally made me laugh!

And yet, I truly do feel sorry for that person. They are totally allowing an overblown issue to prevent them from enjoying the amazing episode that was "Citadel Rescue". I am a serious EU fan myself, but my first Star Wars love has always been the Lucas canon material first, and THEN the EU. Piell's absence in Episode III was a blaring indicator that Piell probably died prior to the Jedi Purge, so why the character was allowed to be included in Coruscant Nights is beyond me. That is NOT Lucas's fault.
 
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I thought this episode was great! This trilogy was a lot of fun. After Nightsisters and Mortis which were rather heavy arcs, it was fun to just get in there and do a classic "break in, save the prisoners and escape" ANH style story.

Tarkin really was showing his more villainous sides.
Even Piell's death was very touching, I wasn't sure if he was going to die or not.
The ending with the Ahsoka, Tarkin and the Warden was great. Ahsoka really showing her more Anakin leanings.

Was this the first death of a movie character in the Clone Wars?
 
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Cramer said:
Venar said:
Question

Was this Ahsoka's first kill?
I wondered this too! Not 100% sure but I think it twas
Quite possible. We get so used to seeing her take out battle droids that we don't even think about how much (or how little) she's fought organic enemies.
 
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The writer of that letter didn't seem to get the point of the EU's original intent, but in his defense, Chee or other official statements could have been more forthcoming on where EU lies in canon. I rememeber back when I thought Shakk Ti died on the invisible hand and then Leland came out and said no, she died in the Temple as the official EU states. Then it was she died on Felucia as the official EU states. Now it's all unofficial, unless official unto itself.

The way I see it anyway, EU can only trump existing EU. Movies/TV/Games can trump EU. Movies/TV trump everything. I always wonder why comic fans can just accept these things but star wars fans need solid affirmation of a single canon.

And if he is correct on his statement that they had this story written before coruscant nights was released, I'd be pissed too. I did actually buy that garbage book and it's the only book to this day I had to put down cuz it was so terrible.
 
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I enjoyed the Coruscant Nights books, but then I am more forgiving than most. In my opinion, however, CN1 should not have used Piell at all, given that he's not on the Jedi Council in (and thus presumably dead by the time of) ROTS.* Of course, Michael Reaves was never one to pay proper attention to canon.


*I consider the Jedi Council to be the U.S. Supreme Court of Star Wars: no one retires and their word is final.
 
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believing Lucas is in the right to have Star Wars told the way he wants it shown thereby possibly crapping on the official EU (i.e. authorized/sanctioned fan fiction) means I'm brainwashed?


wow, the writer of that email is delusional.
 
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From my point of view, the biggest problem with retcon is that it devalues other artist's work.

Let's be honest, most of the ancillary Star Wars material isn't being read for inherent aesthetic merit. People are reading mostly for plot and data; they are reading to flesh out their understanding of the Star Wars fiction.

Every time Lucas retcons EU, though, that EU source loses value for the reader. It turns other artists work essentially into disposable art. How many people are going to bother to read a fiction novel that provides no insight into "active" canon? If it loses value for the reader, it loses value for the artist.

I suppose the issue here is that the artists have already compromised their value by writing franchise genre fiction anyway.

Still, I wonder if this issue of "victory is hollow without honor" applies just as well to Lucasfilm treating writers like 19th century factory workers...
 
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Good points.
If i had a choice, i would vastly not having anything retconned.
One week GL gives us a nod with things like Qinlan Vos or the Anubas, and the next he breaks mandalore or Piell.
But.. I also see no point in throwing a fit about it.
 
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My personal EU vs. George rule is this: GL has the right to overwrite whatever he wants; it IS his universe, after all. If the EU that gets contradicted was cool (for example, all of the clone storyline in the Thrawn Trilogy), then I feel sad. If the EU sucks (Coruscant Nights), then I feel happy. End of story.
 
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