S3 TCW #19 - COUNTERATTACK - 03/04/11

Chris Wyman

Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
19,902
Reaction score
14
Location
Clermont, FL USA
The Clone Wars Episode Guide: Counterattack

"Anything that can go wrong will."

Synopsis: With freed prisoners in their possession and the brutal warden attempting desperately to thwart them, Obi-Wan and Anakin search for a way out of the Citadel and back to Coruscant. The prison, however, has more traps, perils and pitfalls in s tore for them than they had imagined and they must work past their differences if they are to escape.

Director: Brian Kalin O'Connell
Writer: Matt Michnovetz
Key Characters: Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Ahsoka Tano, R2-D2, Osi Sobeck, Even Piell, Captain Tarkin, Clone Captain Rex, Clone Commander Cody, Echo, Fives
Key Locales: Lola Sayu, Coruscant



ForceCast: Collector's Edition duo of James Burns and Dan Curto join us for our roundtable look at the second part of the Citadel trilogy, Counterattack.

Click here to listen!

Panelists:
Jason Swank
Jimmy Mac
James Burns
Dan Curto
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
53
Reaction score
0
I'm certainly looking forward to it, that's for sure! Does anybody else think that when all is said and done, the Separatists are gonna end up with those codes Piell and Tarkin are protecting? That could tie in to the attack on Coruscant in Episode III. Obviously the codes would allow the Separatists to do that. Tarkin may even play a part in getting those codes to the Seps. Maybe he secretly memorized ALL of the codes unbeknownst to Piell. Just a thought!
 
Joined
Aug 29, 2007
Messages
6,085
Reaction score
0
Good episode but seemed pretty ‘flat’ to me... but then again the middle episodes of three-part-arcs typically do. So I’m guessing this episode will improve in retrospect with the final episode.

The clone deaths and the progression of the story was rather well done... however it seemed a bit repetitive at time. Understandably however it naturally gets that way in action packed episodes and they did try and change it around with the fuel pipe, etc.

Tarkin’s character development is great and realistic. He outlines some of the problems with the Jedi Code which, in my opinion, are justified. He seems almost like a ‘General Patton’ type character; brash, head-strong, true warrior and critical of higher officers. He seems to mix that character with the quintessential British WW1/WW2 officer with the accent etc...

Echo’s death was heroic in my opinion and not ‘stupid’. The turret was going to destroy the shuttle and he did what he could to stop that. However I would have preferred if Fives was killed instead...
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
53
Reaction score
0
For some reason, last week's episode failed to make an overwhelming impression on me. This week's episode had everything in it that I missed from "Citadel"!

It was great seeing more of Anakin's interaction with Tarkin. I loved how they both agreed that the Jedi's way of doing business is at times too passive during wartime. It was also great seeing Tarkin complaining to Rex about his reservations toward Ahsoka. I really liked how Rex stood up for her. Tarkin is his superior officer, so he didn't HAVE to do that. It shows how close she and Rex have become over the course of the war. One last point concerning Tarkin. I LOVED his voice this time around. I was a bit skeptical last week, but I totally bought it this time around.

Osi Sobeck also continues to be an engaging new villain, and James Arnold Taylor's Walkin influence really was apparent in this episode. Christopher Walkin's voice is creepy even when he isn't playing a creepy character, so his voice combined with the already unnerving Phindian just WORKED! I also appreciated the writers' boldness when they allowed Sobeck to murder assassination style that poor Clone Trooper. NOT, I repeat NOT, a kids' show.

The most chilling moment of the whole episode for me, however, was when Echo was killed. I didn't realize how much that clone had grown on me up till now. I was actually a little shaken to be honest, and that doesn't happen easily. His death was just so sudden and REAL. Troops in THIS galaxy are fighting and losing their lives on a daily basis in ways eerily not so different from how Echo died. Hearing that LITTLE BIT of real emotion creep into Fives' voice when he saw his brother die was very poignant, and that chilling visual of Echo's scorched mask was the icing on the cake.

I always thought Fives would be the one to die before Echo as well, and I probably would've preferred it that way if I am being totally honest. However, I am okay with the fact that Echo died first. Once again, that added to the REALNESS of the scene. War does not allow us to pick and choose who dies and who lives. Just be because we want OUR loved ones to survive the war does not make them anymore protected than the unknown soldier next to him. Truly one of the best death scenes in Star Wars.

This episode, in my opinion, was in every way superior to "The Citadel." It's amazing fusion of awesome battle sequences, character development, and an emotional center reminded me of every reason why I'm proud to call myself a Star Wars fan! Now, come on, Fives! I'm rooting for you to survive!
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
38
Reaction score
0
DuroDude said:
For some reason, last week's episode failed to make an overwhelming impression on me. This week's episode had everything in it that I missed from "Citadel"!

It was great seeing more of Anakin's interaction with Tarkin. I loved how they both agreed that the Jedi's way of doing business is at times too passive during wartime. It was also great seeing Tarkin complaining to Rex about his reservations toward Ahsoka. I really liked how Rex stood up for her. Tarkin is his superior officer, so he didn't HAVE to do that. It shows how close she and Rex have become over the course of the war. One last point concerning Tarkin. I LOVED his voice this time around. I was a bit skeptical last week, but I totally bought it this time around.

Osi Sobeck also continues to be an engaging new villain, and James Arnold Taylor's Walkin influence really was apparent in this episode. Christopher Walkin's voice is creepy even when he isn't playing a creepy character, so his voice combined with the already unnerving Phindian just WORKED! I also appreciated the writers' boldness when they allowed Sobeck to murder assassination style that poor Clone Trooper. NOT, I repeat NOT, a kids' show.

The most chilling moment of the whole episode for me, however, was when Echo was killed. I didn't realize how much that clone had grown on me up till now. I was actually a little shaken to be honest, and that doesn't happen easily. His death was just so sudden and REAL. Troops in THIS galaxy are fighting and losing their lives on a daily basis in ways eerily not so different from how Echo died. Hearing that LITTLE BIT of real emotion creep into Fives' voice when he saw his brother die was very poignant, and that chilling visual of Echo's scorched mask was the icing on the cake.

I always thought Fives would be the one to die before Echo as well, and I probably would've preferred it that way if I am being totally honest. However, I am okay with the fact that Echo died first. Once again, that added to the REALNESS of the scene. War does not allow us to pick and choose who dies and who lives. Just be because we want OUR loved ones to survive the war does not make them anymore protected than the unknown soldier next to him. Truly one of the best death scenes in Star Wars.

This episode, in my opinion, was in every way superior to "The Citadel." It's amazing fusion of awesome battle sequences, character development, and an emotional center reminded me of every reason why I'm proud to call myself a Star Wars fan! Now, come on, Fives! I'm rooting for you to survive!
I totally got bummed out when Echo's smoldering helmet hit the ground
. My favorite character's on the show are mostly clones. You see how Echo and Fives progressed from Domino Squad, Rishi moon and then getting promoted to ARC troopers on Kamino. I wanted to see these guys go far, you invest so much emotionally in these guys, just like when Hevy gave his life for the mission. I'm really hoping Fives stays alive in the next episode. I'm hoping the life expectancy of an ARC trooper is longer than a 2nd Lieutenant in the Vietnam War.
 
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
35
Reaction score
0
Really Dave! Really George! Echo?!.....you had to kill off another solid character for the cheap, "dramatic death" scene, AGAIN!

I have been a huge fan of this show since the beginning. I've been in awe of the amazing job they do on this show. Every week it just gets better and better, but this whole killing off of a great character just for the "shock" value is getting more than just a little tiresome.

And before people say that's the reality of war, "anyone can die in war", let me just say I don't watch any tv show or movie for the "reality". I watch this show for entertainment, to escape reality for a little while. I don't need a dose of "reality" in my face every week.I want at least some of the good-guys/heroes to live every once in awhile. There's nothing wrong with letting a character, that's not in the films later, develop longer than 3 or 4 episodes.

I know I sound like a disgruntled fanboy. I still love this show and will continue to do so, but enough with the escalating body count Dave and George!
 
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
4,285
Reaction score
1
Location
Upstate New York
Gentlemen, it's a war. War does not discriminate who is a great fighter or fan favorite. At least he had a heroic death, when the true nature of war is that most deaths happen when least expected.
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
53
Reaction score
0
Well said, Cramer.

The show IS called the Clone WARS, after all! War means death. Heroes (not just villains) are going to die sometimes. I understand the need to watch Star Wars and escape reality for a little while, but there are some things in this life that we cannot escape no matter how hard we try. Death is one of them. I mean you can't realistically expect the good guys to all live and survive the war. One of the fundamental weaknesses of this show (that is nobody's fault; it's just the way it is) is that we never have to worry about the survival of 90% of the main characters.

For example, last week when Anakin was dangling from the ceiling by his robotic arm with electricity coursing through his body, no one in their right minds would've been even a little bit worried about him. We KNOW he must survive. Same goes for Obi-Wan, Padme, Dooku, Yoda, Mace, Grievous (where is he, by the way?), and most of the Jedi we see.

What is great about characters like Echo (and Ahsoka, Rex, Fives, etc.) is that we have come to care for these characters, but they actually have a very real possibility of not surviving the war. In fact, for most of them, the odds are stacked pretty highly in favor of them dying (I'm looking at you, Ahsoka). These characters, while I hate to see them die, serve to remind us that war is not a game. A television show about an ongoing war cannot escape the reality of death.

One thing I personally like about Star Wars is that it is NOT pure escapism. Most of it is, and that is great. But there are some moments in the saga when it doesn't allow you to escape. Sometimes it takes some very real-life issues and forces you to stare them in the face. It's not really a galaxy SO far, far away afterall.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
11,066
Reaction score
0
Location
Mexico City
Cramer said:
Gentlemen, it's a war. War does not discriminate who is a great fighter or fan favorite. At least he had a heroic death, when the true nature of war is that most deaths happen when least expected.
+1. I thought Echo's death was handled very well, and it fit perfectly with the mood of the story arc. I'm liking these episodes very much, and I'm really looking forward to the grand finale.
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
53
Reaction score
0
One more little bit of food for thought here.

We didn't SEE Echo die. All we saw was his helmet . . .
 
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
4,285
Reaction score
1
Location
Upstate New York
DuroDude said:
One more little bit of food for thought here.

We didn't SEE Echo die. All we saw was his helmet . . .
Maybe he became one with the Force. Although I think he actually became one with the whole side of that shuttle.
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
53
Reaction score
0
LOL

I totally hear you, Cramer! Unless Echo was secretly a Jedi, I would bank that he definitely did become "one" with that shuttle!

More seriously, though, can we really be SURE he is dead? I think it would somewhat cheapen that jarring death scene if he DID survive, but if handled correctly, Echo appearing out of nowhere in the next episode and saving his friends would be pretty awesome as well. Let's just say I'll be convinced that Echo is truly dead if he doesn't appear in next week's episode.
 
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
35
Reaction score
0
I don't think my point came across very well. I understand the fact it's a show about "war" and with that comes death.(Yes, I know even the good guys die). I'm just saying it's becoming an over-used gimmick in the show to try to add more "drama" to the series. I have no problem with it happening occasionly, but I think it just needs to be used a little more sparingly.

I understand even some of the "heroes" have to die every now and then, but it's becoming a recurrent theme to kill off the well-developed characters. Just let some of them live occasionly.
It's supposed to be a "kids" show(at least in theory) after all, right, so let the kids(and adults
) keep SOME of their heroes. I read a post from a father on the SW website that said his seven year olds Hasbro collection is becoming a memorial shrine. I think that sums it up pretty well.
 
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
4,356
Reaction score
0
Location
NF, NY
Echo's dead.


I hate it with fiery passion, it's sad and it seems like a real waste. But I think I have to accept it.


same goes for Zev Senesca and Garven Dreis. I'm still dealing with them...
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
53
Reaction score
0
Yeah, but ctscanman68, good guys really DON'T die all that much. How can it be an overused gimmick? Let's look back at this past season at who has died. Forgive me if I forget someone.

1. "99"--Okay, this happened WAY back at the beginning if the new season, and I think most fans saw this one coming from a mile away.

2. "Ima-Gon Di"--With a name like that, he just HAS to die! Besides, I felt no real attachment to the character. How could I after one episode?

3. "Ziro the Hutt"--This death was quite shocking and unexpected, but at the end of the day (as much fun as we may have had with Ziro), he was still just a slimy Hutt gangster. Those engaged in underworld activities don't tend to live long lives, even though Ziro technically did because he was a Hutt.


4. "Mina Bonteri"--This Separatist meddler (as good intentioned as she may have been) was totally asking for it. There's no way Palpatine/Dooku would allow her to live. Once again, though, I felt no sense if real sadness or shock when she died. I expected it to happen. If anything, I felt sorry for Lux, who I believe will be a MAJOR player in future seasons.

5. Random Jedi on Devaron--Who really cares? Savage was given an amazing scene here, and the Jedi he slaughtered will sadly not be missed.

6. "King Katuunko"--I'll admit that I didn't see this one coming, but did I really care for this king the way I cared for Echo? No, not really. He's my favorite Toydarian, I'll give him that much.

7. Father/Son/Daughter--All of these otherworldly characters die during the Mortis arc, but did they REALLY die or were they just part of some grand, Dagobah-ish Force vision? Their otherworldliness detracted a bit from the significance of their deaths.

8. Echo--So far, out of all these deaths I mentioned, Echo is the ONLY character I really CARED about. He is the first character to die from Season 3 that made me experience any real sense of loss. All the other deaths just don't compare.

Therefore, seeing as though only one death this entire season has made any type of meaningful impact, I just understand how someone could say that killing off meaningful characters is an overused tactic.
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
53
Reaction score
0
Let me amend that last sentence in my above post. I meant that I DON'T understand how people can think killing off significant characters is an overused tactic.


I'm typing this on my iPod and I couldn't Edit my above post effectively.
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
38
Reaction score
0
While it's true you only see his smoldering helmet, and as much I want to see Echo make a triumphant return in the next episode I'm not going to hold my breath. Other than the captains and commanders like Rex or Cody, Echo and Fives had the best progression I've seen. the only other clones that they show progressing were Boil and Waxer (who are now ARF troopers). let's hope that we see more of Boil and Waxer as well.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
240
Reaction score
0
Another cool episode.

I felt that the escaping/getting captured/escaping/getting captured nature of the first half was a bit lacking in juice, but the Anakin/Tarkin moment (with cool musical moment), the truly cinematic final scene, and the death of Echo made the episode meaningful. This'll be a great arc to watch all together in the future.

And Anakin's comment about the fact that if Plo Koon had really sent Ahsoka on the mission she would have known about the wall was proof I think that Master Plo had nothing to do with her being there, and that she had just invited herself.
 
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
222
Reaction score
0
I wonder if the ForceCast is gonna devote a segment on Echo's death, like they did for Ziro.
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
290
Reaction score
0
I rewatched the Clone Cadets arc.
Man, what a great death for Echo.

On a side note: That turboblaster battery? What a great sound effect. "Tumb Tumb!"
 
Joined
Aug 29, 2007
Messages
6,085
Reaction score
0
Venar said:
On a side note: That turboblaster battery? What a great sound effect. "Tumb Tumb!"
YES! I agree, I thought the exact same thing. It sounded like a World War 2 cannon or something.
 
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
222
Reaction score
0
I swear, reading the comments here and the comments on the TFN forums is like night and day.
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
290
Reaction score
0
I was wondering why Echo's death made me so sad. And it is my daughter who gave me the answer when she said: poor Fives, he's all alone now .

Yes. I am sad for Fives. We saw him bond with his squad in Cadets, we saw him lose Heavy and Cutups in Rookie, and 99 in ARC troopers, and then joining the 501st with Echo. I can only guess that his bond with Echo was stronger then with any other trooper. They are all brothers, but more so into a squad.
With Echo gone, Fives is the last remnant of Domino Squad, and he must feel very alone.

I guess he dies next week.
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
53
Reaction score
0
I'd say your daughter hit the nail on the head, Venar. Fives is the last man standing from Domino Squad, and he has to carry a great weight with him over the losses of all his brothers. This episode definitely makes watching "Clone Cadets" harder to watch knowing that only Fives will ultimately survive (for now at least). I think when all is said and done, the best contribution Clone Wars will have made to Star Wars is that it makes you aware of the very human qualities of clones (and maybe even Stormtroopers). They're not just organic battle droids anymore. We as fans have truly come to care about then, and I think that's awesome.

By the way, is anyone else worried a little bit about Rex? We logically assume that Fives will be the next to go if more lives are to be lost in the next episode. However, Lucas may just throw us a curve ball. I hope I'm wrong. As sad as Echo's death was, that's nothing to how sad Rex's will be.
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
38
Reaction score
0
I guess the production teams goal to really humanize and personify clones on this show really was achieved since all we've been discussing about is Echo's death and how Fives is the only one left in Domino squad. Like I said most of my favorite episodes in TCW are the ones that highlight the clones, you can relate to the clones more so than the jedi since clones are just as vulnerable as you or I, whereas a jedi is pretty much invincible in combat to a point.

It would be a sad, sad day if and when we learn the fate of Captain Rex. Definitely the general public's favorite clone in the series. I would assume the writers won't touch that subject until the whole series comes to a close
 
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
383
Reaction score
0
Thanks for the review, Eric. I would also like to see Sobeck survive. He is a theatrical goof, but ruthless enough to be interesting and fun.

For the sake of the story, and to give the Citadel mission a more substantial sense of danger and impact, I think that long-eared, one-eyed Ruskie needs to get Trotsky-ed.
 
Joined
May 18, 2000
Messages
11,043
Reaction score
0
Location
Top-Secret Hideout
Osi Sobeck said something about wanting "THE OTHER HALF OF THE INFORMATION."

Did Tarkin talk and give up his half? If not when did Sobeck learn that the information was split in two?
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
290
Reaction score
0
Darth_Engelhast said:
Osi Sobeck said something about wanting "THE OTHER HALF OF THE INFORMATION."

Did Tarkin talk and give up his half? If not when did Sobeck learn that the information was split in two?
Indeed! In fact, how does he even know they split it in 2??
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
290
Reaction score
0
Oh, and BTW, i am sure this has been mentionned before, but, just in case, Sobek in the Egyptian god of crocodiles...
Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek

Star Wars and names... Sometimes i think it's a wonder they didn't call Ashoka "Pah Dawan"
 
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
4,356
Reaction score
0
Location
NF, NY
Venar said:
Oh, and BTW, i am sure this has been mentionned before, but, just in case, Sobek in the Egyptian god of crocodiles...
the Anubis dogs in the next episode fits with that nicely... hmmm

where are the Horus attack birds?
 
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
383
Reaction score
0
Venar said:
Oh, and BTW, i am sure this has been mentionned before, but, just in case, Sobek in the Egyptian god of crocodiles...
Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek

Star Wars and names... Sometimes i think it's a wonder they didn't call Ashoka "Pah Dawan"
Ahsoka has to be a reference to the Indian king, Ashoka (pronounced the same)--especially given Padme's name.
 
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
383
Reaction score
0
^That makes sense, but Filoni told a story about how GL pulled the name out of a book. Sorry, I don't recall where I saw him say that...(any help?)
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
3,273
Reaction score
0
Location
Virginia
I was gone all weekend at a con and finally got a chance to sit down and watch this episode. Very cool episode, just like Citadel.

It was shocking that they would kill a major character like Echo. As the 501st says, he isn't gone just marching far away. He has joined the Eternal Legionnaires.

For the overall story of the Clone Wars, I liked that we have kind of seen the story thru the eyes of the clones, especially those Rookies from Domino Squad. We have seen them as trainees, join the fight, lose there innocence (or shininess, if you will), fight back and now lose those close to them. They are kind of the microcosm of the whole story of the Republic and the Clone Wars.

In this one particular episode I thought the execution of the clone in the Warden's office was more shocking.

They really went to some dark places with the clones in this episode. One clone got cut in half by the security doors, another gets executed and then Echo.

Was anyone else thinking of the Force Unleashed 2 during the battle on the landing platform? Those turbolasers were straight out of the Kamino level, spot light and all.

Great episode, can't wait to see the finale.

(Can you believe that we are very nearly at the end of Season 3?
)
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
290
Reaction score
0
Sure, this trilogy is proving grimly fatal for many clones (falling to death, electrocution, execution, cut in half, and blown-up).
But it just emphasis that the citadel is this impenetrable fortress that nobody comes back from, and it does link back to the Cadet episode, where the final test, the ultimate exam, is the Citadel drill.
This is not any mission. This is the Citadel. The ultimate challenge!
 
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
222
Reaction score
0
Call me a grump, but I don't think the STAPs sounding like TIE Fighters was really necessary and relevant.

Wookie_inked said:
Darth_Gamek said:
I swear, reading the comments here and the comments on the TFN forums is like night and day.
what do you mean?

I'm curious is all
The large majority of the TFN forums are old, jaded grumps, as well as being stuck-up, snobby, elitist EU fans who have no idea how to have fun.

Darth_Engelhast said:
^
I'm pretty sure the name "Ahsoka" is a call back to a character named "Soka" on Dave Filoni's previous gig directing Avatar The Last Air Bender.
No, no, no. It's Dave Filoni who works on the show, not M. Night Shyamalamadingdong.
 
Top