S3 TCW #16 - ALTAR OF MORTIS - 02/04/11

Chris Wyman

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The Clone Wars Episode Guide: Altar of Mortis

"He who surrenders hope, surrenders life."

Synopsis: Before the Jedi can leave Mortis, the Son takes Ahsoka captive in an attempt to entice Anakin into joining him to use their combined strength to overpower his Father and Sister. Meanwhile, the Father attempts to stave off a disastrous showdown between his children and maintain the Force's increasingly precarious balance on the planet.

Director: Brian Kalin O'Connell
Writer: Christian Taylor
Key Characters: Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Ahsoka Tano, Father, Daughter, Son.
Key Locales: Mortis



Is it all a dream? Was that really Qui-Gon Jinn? Is Anakin the Chosen One after all? Find out what we think as we look at the first two episodes of The Mortis Trilogy: Overlords and Altar of Mortis with special guests "Big Honkin" Steve Glosson and former LucasArts Sound Designer David Collins.

Click here to listen!

Panelists:
Jason Swank
Jimmy Mac
David Collins
"Big Honkin" Steve Glosson
 
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Great episode! The Son was great, and I was surprised by the ending. I'll need to watch it several more times though, there was a lot to take in.

IS IT NEXT FRIDAY YET?
 
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Nice episode. Seemed to be over as soon as it started.

The previews for next week looked amazing. Simply can't wait. I actually giggled like a little kid.
 
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Another great episode!! Next weeks preview actually gave me goose bumps
 
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Wow, these are pretty much the most significant episodes of the entire Clone Wars series, aren't they?

I don't want to assume too much about tonight's episode though, since the resolution of the story won't be until next week. Pretty much the biggest Star Wars cliffhanger since they left Han frozen in carbonite though!
 
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Wow! This episode was great. The dark Ahsoka was very cool, I got an almost Harley Quinn (from Batman) feel from her.

I can't wait to watch all these episodes back to back to back.

Also, IS IT FRIDAY YET?!?!?!?
 
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darthtippy said:
Another great episode!! Next weeks preview actually gave me goose bumps
That’s how I got in this episode during the resurrection scene when the John Williams music kicked in. Started to even tear up like a big ol' wussy.

I was afraid for a moment there that they were going to make Ahsoka the new light side “sister” of Mortis. I would not have liked that at all.
 
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Darth_Engelhast said:
darthtippy said:
Another great episode!! Next weeks preview actually gave me goose bumps
That’s how I got in this episode during the resurrection scene when the John Williams music kicked in. Started to even tear up like a big ol' wussy.

I was afraid for a moment there that they were going to make Ahsoka the new light side “sister” of Mortis. I would not have liked that at all.
I was worried about that as well...
 
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”The Dark Side is a path to many abilities some consider to be unnatural”

Okay this arc, in my opinion, has given a less convoluted view of the Force with the latest episode (with the dark side still being evil and not natural). Essentially in nature the yin-yang exists... however the ‘dark’ aspects are not necessarily the dark side of the Force. We know this because the ‘Son’ is dark but he is still ‘slipping’ towards the dark side which is in turn making him unnaturally strong. This makes me believe that while the dark aspects of the Force are natural the dark side is in fact an unnatural mutated cancer of these aspects feeding off the Force. So in the end, while dark and light must exist harmoniously in nature, the dark side is a mutated unnatural ‘evil’ of these dark aspects which must be destroyed.

At the start of this arc the Son is the dark aspects of the Force (and thus natural), however by the end of it he has fallen to the dark side and is thus unnatural.

I’ll post my thoughts on the episode itself later.
 
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IndianaKenobi said:
”The Dark Side is a path to many abilities some consider to be unnatural”

Okay this arc, in my opinion, has given a less convoluted view of the Force with the latest episode (with the dark side still being evil and not natural). Essentially in nature the yin-yang exists... however the ‘dark’ aspects are not necessarily the dark side of the Force. We know this because the ‘Son’ is dark but he is still ‘slipping’ towards the dark side which is in turn making him unnaturally strong. This makes me believe that while the dark aspects of the Force are natural the dark side is in fact an unnatural mutated cancer of these aspects feeding off the Force. So in the end, while dark and light must exist harmoniously in nature, the dark side is a mutated unnatural ‘evil’ of these dark aspects which must be destroyed.

At the start of this arc the Son is the dark aspects of the Force (and thus natural), however by the end of it he has fallen to the dark side and is thus unnatural.

I’ll post my thoughts on the episode itself later.
Yeah, I would agree. We tend to want to associate light and dark with good and evil, but that's not the case here. The Sith are dark side practioners who use the the Force for evil, but are not evil because they use the dark side I think was the point.
 
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Fraking awesome! I'm not into the whole LoTR/Potter stuff but I do love genre hopping.

I also love how they kinda played with our early predictions of the series; Will Ashoka die? -Yeah, she kinda did. Will Ashoka turn to the Darkside? -Yes, she did. All in Season 3 and all of it reversible.

And I had the same reaction as Murray! Ashoka did remind me of Harley Quinn and the next 5 minutes I kinda zoned out of the action whilst thinking how much we need a mature Batman series like this!


*No commentary this week?
 
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I noticed some cool parallels in this episode.

The fight between Daughter and Son was very similar to the "Force Duel" between Dooku and Yoda in Ep. 2. I liked how the Daughter who is supposed to be pure light side was only using defensive techniques. Made me think of Yoda's comment about using the Force for "knowledge and defense, never for attack"

Also, apparently Sam Witwer mentioned in an interview about how he was using his dialogue to match similar lines from Darth Vader, Palpatine, Dooku, etc. Whenever he said a line that was similar to one from the movies, his voice and speech pattern would be closer to what that character sounded like. I thought that was very cool.

Does anyone think we might see a larger change for Ahsoka now that she has come back from the dead? or that the Daughter gave her life so that she might live?
 
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Cramer said:
*No commentary this week?
I know...what up with that? Plus the Episode Guide did not have much to say either.

This episode made this arc look even more like the last couple of Seasons of LOST. A dark character that wants to leave the home he is imprisoned upon and a light character that is determined to see that he stays put. A mysterious island / planet with magical powers that may or many not really exist within norm al reality. A magic knife that is the only thing that can kill the godlike being inhabitants of the planet / island. Visions of the dead being used to manipulate the living. I am sure there are more examples but I will have to watch the episodes again to see if I can find any
 
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^ I can see that. I just hope the next episode isn't a let down like that final season of LOST was.
 
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Nice review Eric. You should watch the episode again and pay attention more to the music this time and add a little more of your thoughts on it into the review.

youllbedead said:
^ I can see that. I just hope the next episode isn't a let down like that final season of LOST was.
A'men brother. I LOVED Lost right up to the very LAST episode then they ended it so badly that I can't stand any of the series now. They managed to ruin EVERYTHING that was ever good about the show within the finale. I took my DVD’s to the store I shop at and sold them the next day. I prey to god nothing will ever kill my overall love of Star Wars the way that the Last episode of Lost did for my love of it.

I mean really? Everything that happed was just a way for the characters to learn how to hug each other in the afterlife? SON OF A BI…..5 years of my life WASTED.
 
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Darth_Engelhast said:
Nice review Eric. You should watch the episode again and pay attention more to the music this time and add a little more of your thoughts on it into the review.

youllbedead said:
^ I can see that. I just hope the next episode isn't a let down like that final season of LOST was.
A'men brother. I LOVED Lost right up to the very LAST episode then they ended it so badly that I can't stand any of the series now. They managed to ruin EVERYTHING that was ever good about the show within the finale. I took my DVD’s to the store I shop at and sold them the next day. I prey to god nothing will ever kill my overall love of Star Wars they way that the Last episode of Lost did for my love of it.

I mean really? Everything that happed was just a way for the characters to learn how to hug each other in the afterlife? SON OF A BI…..5 years of my life WASTED.
Six years, actually. And it wasn't THAT bad, really. I actually enjoyed the finale!
 
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Jorbex said:
Darth_Engelhast said:
Nice review Eric. You should watch the episode again and pay attention more to the music this time and add a little more of your thoughts on it into the review.

youllbedead said:
^ I can see that. I just hope the next episode isn't a let down like that final season of LOST was.
A'men brother. I LOVED Lost right up to the very LAST episode then they ended it so badly that I can't stand any of the series now. They managed to ruin EVERYTHING that was ever good about the show within the finale. I took my DVD’s to the store I shop at and sold them the next day. I prey to god nothing will ever kill my overall love of Star Wars they way that the Last episode of Lost did for my love of it.

I mean really? Everything that happed was just a way for the characters to learn how to hug each other in the afterlife? SON OF A BI…..5 years of my life WASTED.
Six years, actually. And it wasn't THAT bad, really. I actually enjoyed the finale!
Five. I did not start watching it until my girlfriend twisted my arm and made me watch the first season on DVD.

Some of my friends loved the finale also but I was nearly throwing my remote control into the TV screen angry at the way it eneded.
 
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Darth_Engelhast said:
Jorbex said:
Darth_Engelhast said:
Nice review Eric. You should watch the episode again and pay attention more to the music this time and add a little more of your thoughts on it into the review.

youllbedead said:
^ I can see that. I just hope the next episode isn't a let down like that final season of LOST was.
A'men brother. I LOVED Lost right up to the very LAST episode then they ended it so badly that I can't stand any of the series now. They managed to ruin EVERYTHING that was ever good about the show within the finale. I took my DVD’s to the store I shop at and sold them the next day. I prey to god nothing will ever kill my overall love of Star Wars they way that the Last episode of Lost did for my love of it.

I mean really? Everything that happed was just a way for the characters to learn how to hug each other in the afterlife? SON OF A BI…..5 years of my life WASTED.
Six years, actually. And it wasn't THAT bad, really. I actually enjoyed the finale!
Five. I did not start watching it until my girlfriend twisted my arm and made me watch the first season on DVD.

Some of my friends loved the finale also but I was nearly throwing my remote control into the TV screen angry at the way it eneded.
We may have derailed this thread. But, I totally agree with you, Engelhast. That last episode just killed it. My problem is that they spent almost six years setting up the mysteries of this island and all the people and groups that had been coming there and struggling over it and then they just dropped that entire aspect of the show and focused solely on character redemption. That's fine, but what about all the other stuff, you teases.
 
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Bryancd said:
IndianaKenobi said:
”The Dark Side is a path to many abilities some consider to be unnatural”

Okay this arc, in my opinion, has given a less convoluted view of the Force with the latest episode (with the dark side still being evil and not natural). Essentially in nature the yin-yang exists... however the ‘dark’ aspects are not necessarily the dark side of the Force. We know this because the ‘Son’ is dark but he is still ‘slipping’ towards the dark side which is in turn making him unnaturally strong. This makes me believe that while the dark aspects of the Force are natural the dark side is in fact an unnatural mutated cancer of these aspects feeding off the Force. So in the end, while dark and light must exist harmoniously in nature, the dark side is a mutated unnatural ‘evil’ of these dark aspects which must be destroyed.

At the start of this arc the Son is the dark aspects of the Force (and thus natural), however by the end of it he has fallen to the dark side and is thus unnatural.

I’ll post my thoughts on the episode itself later.
Yeah, I would agree. We tend to want to associate light and dark with good and evil, but that's not the case here. The Sith are dark side practioners who use the the Force for evil, but are not evil because they use the dark side I think was the point.
Somewhat, however I think you might have mixed that up a bit (understandable). Essentially the Force is inherently good (Judeo-Christian), however this ‘inherent goodness’ means that there must be both ‘good aspects’ and ‘dark aspects’ to create, in nature, a singular Force (Taoist view). As such evil does not naturally exist in the universe and is rather an ‘extension’ of this inherent goodness (Judeo-Christian). This evil is created when one falls to the Dark Side of the Force... as such the Dark Side of the Force is evil...

In the context of this arc, both the Son and Daughter are initially ‘good’ since they are essential. The Father represents the ‘perfect’ balance (one who is good but has darkness when nessisary). Yes, evil is acknowledged, however it is noted as an unnatural mutation of the Force; this is what happens to the Son.

So to a dress the point the Sith are evil for using the Dark Side because the Dark Side is itself unnatural and evil. It is important to note that the 'dark aspects' which the Son initially represents are not the same as the Dark Side of the Force...
 
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Cramer said:
Guys, can we move this conversation to the Lost thread and keep this for Altar of Mortis?
I think it is relevant given the similarities. Also the time of production had to have been near or around the time Lost was wrapping up. I wonder if GL or the writers were fans of the show. I forgot to mention the opposing good / evil forces on both shows were siblings and in both the evil force killed or wanted to kill the parental figure.
 
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I know I should probably wait for the third part of this trilogy to air before making final judgments, but I really do not like the direction this has taken. In my opinion, the past two episodes have been completely unnecessary and they have no place in the Star Wars universe.

The Force needs no explanation or personification, it has already been explained perfectly in the Original Trilogy. The idea of making the Force (and it's Light and Dark tendencies) actual characters and giving them personality seems to go against everything the Force is.

Not to mention... the ramifications of this are insane. For all intents and purposes, this episode is illustrating that Obi-Wan and Anakin have essentially met God, and they're just supposed to go on about their daily lives and the events of Episode III transpire in the manner they do? It seems preposterous, honestly.

And with the preview of next week, we have characters actually envisioning the events of Episode III... this makes no sense at all. It really undermines the already underwhelming events that led to Anakin's fall.

Meh. Clone Wars would be great if it stuck to what it's good at - telling original stories outside the continuity of the films, but instead they continually try to squeeze in things like Darth Maul and the origins of the Force.
 
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I NEED to know more about these anchorites and their EXACT relationship with the Force. I have LOVED the Mortis trilogy thus far, but I do fear it could leave us with more questions than answers.

Also, I really liked when George Lucas once described the Dark Side as a cancer. It takes and gives nothing back, and eventually it destroys itself and its host along with it. The Dark Side is incredibly self-destructive. Therefore, I must ask AGAIN precisely WHY the Dark Side is needed at all for the good of the galaxy (or the "balance"). If the Dark Side truly IS cancerous in nature (and I have seen no evidence to suggest otherwise), then even a little bit of it could cause great harm. God forbid this happen to anyone, but a patient struggling with cancer would want ALL of it removed for the best prognosis. If even a speck of it remained, it could potentially grow and metastasize again, threatening the life of the afflicted individual.

I think if Father had worked more WITH Daughter to stop Son, they just MAY have been able to do so. Instead, Father was lukewarm. His goal was to simply stop his children from fighting, and he neglected to notice the cancerous being that Son had become. Maybe the Father made a mistake. Maybe all these millennia he has maintained balance between his two children (Light and Dark) for what he thought was the good of the galaxy. Yet, his failure to completely diminish the Dark Side ultimately led to Son's increasingly unstable and unstoppable evil growing throughout the years. That LITTLE BIT OF DARK SIDE allowed to flourish grew into something that Father could not control, and it truly did create a monster that could cause (and probably does cause in some way or another) a horrific amount of harm on the galaxy.

I am not sold on this concept of balance yet. I still believe that the Dark Side throws the Force OUT of balance. Causing chaos and discord is the essence of Son's nature. How could such a dark force contribute to balance and order? "Altar of Mortis" convinced me more than ever that the Dark Side ONLY brings disorder, NOT balance. I am prepared to eat my words if I am wrong, BUT I need a readonable explanation ON-SCREEN that makes sense.
 
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Essentially what they're saying is, now that Daughter is dead - Anakin will take her place when he dies, thus balancing the Force. This will explain (too much so, I think) why destroying the Emperor balances the Force in ROTJ.

I hope to God they don't infer that the force ghosts of Yoda, Qui-Gon or even Obi-Wan are destined to become these kinds of force-wielders from beyond the grave :/
 
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DuroDude said:
I NEED to know more about these anchorites and their EXACT relationship with the Force. I have LOVED the Mortis trilogy thus far, but I do fear it could leave us with more questions than answers.

Also, I really liked when George Lucas once described the Dark Side as a cancer. It takes and gives nothing back, and eventually it destroys itself and its host along with it. The Dark Side is incredibly self-destructive. Therefore, I must ask AGAIN precisely WHY the Dark Side is needed at all for the good of the galaxy (or the "balance"). If the Dark Side truly IS cancerous in nature (and I have seen no evidence to suggest otherwise), then even a little bit of it could cause great harm. God forbid this happen to anyone, but a patient struggling with cancer would want ALL of it removed for the best prognosis. If even a speck of it remained, it could potentially grow and metastasize again, threatening the life of the afflicted individual.

I think if Father had worked more WITH Daughter to stop Son, they just MAY have been able to do so. Instead, Father was lukewarm. His goal was to simply stop his children from fighting, and he neglected to notice the cancerous being that Son had become. Maybe the Father made a mistake. Maybe all these millennia he has maintained balance between his two children (Light and Dark) for what he thought was the good of the galaxy. Yet, his failure to completely diminish the Dark Side ultimately led to Son's increasingly unstable and unstoppable evil growing throughout the years. That LITTLE BIT OF DARK SIDE allowed to flourish grew into something that Father could not control, and it truly did create a monster that could cause (and probably does cause in some way or another) a horrific amount of harm on the galaxy.

I am not sold on this concept of balance yet. I still believe that the Dark Side throws the Force OUT of balance. Causing chaos and discord is the essence of Son's nature. How could such a dark force contribute to balance and order? "Altar of Mortis" convinced me more than ever that the Dark Side ONLY brings disorder, NOT balance. I am prepared to eat my words if I am wrong, BUT I need a readonable explanation ON-SCREEN that makes sense.
I think you may be missing the point. What the Son was initially is different than the ‘Dark Side of the Force’. The Dark Side isn’t essential, however the dark aspects of nature which lead to it are. The Dark Side is evil, yet what the Son was initially was essential. Here is an E-mail I sent to Jimmy and Jason, so hopefully it will help with your understanding of the Force.

E-Mail said:
Hey Jimmy and Jason,

The recent The Clone Wars episodes, Overlords and Altar of Mortis have been outstanding and have certainly changed our view of the Force. I believe I have determined the basic outline these episodes have helped establish in the Force and I thought I would drop you guys a line in case you, or your listeners, were not completely sure of the concepts these episodes established.

Essentially we all know Star Wars takes bits and pieces from different religions around the world, sustilling them down to their essential motifs. This of course makes the Force incredibly individual amalgamated – and somewhat universal – philosophy which doesn’t strictly adhere to any religious movement. Because of all these bits and pieces from Judeo-Christian teachings to Eastern Philosophies we have been unsure of how they could possibly ‘fit together’ in one unique philosophy (because they contradict each other). However the recent episodes of The Clone Wars have given us a somewhat ‘definitive’ view of the Force.

I’m going to try and explain this in terms of how it was metaphorically done on Mortis:

Firstly, the Father gives the impression that the Force in inherently good (Judeo-Christian) however this ‘inherent goodness’ means that there must be both ‘good aspects’ and ‘dark aspects’ (the human differentiation) to create, in nature, a singular Force (Taoist view). This suggests that the Force’s ‘inherent goodness’ is not found in the complete absence of what we humans consider ‘dark aspects’ but rather the natural balance of both light and dark aspects. This would further suggest that both the Son and Daughter are, initially at least, good and must be balanced with eachother because it is the natural balance of nature to have them equally present. This is essentially a Yin-Yang standpoint mixed with some Judeo-Christian ones creating something unique.

The Father himself represents this balance idealistically within a human being; he is a good man who has good and peaceful intensions, however he maintains the darkness within him to be used when necessary, thus creating a completely balanced being. This is somewhat like the Jedi.

However these episodes have not completely discarded the concept of evil within the universe. Essentially it is important to note that the ‘dark aspects’ which the Son represents initially and the Dark Side of the Force are two separate entities. This is reinforced by the fact the Son is ‘falling’ to the Dark Side in Altar of Mortis which his Father condemns. This thus illustrates the Dark Side of the Force, not as the natural ‘dark aspects’ consisting the Force, but rather as an unnatural mutation of these things. This unnatural mutation thus creates evil and happens for the same reasons as it happens to anyone; Greed and Pride. As such dark aspects (which the Son is initially) represent the balanced dark aspects required in nature (and, by extension every person), whilst the Dark Side of the Force is representative of a mutated unnatural ‘cancer’ creating evil (which the Son is falling to). To put this into perspective, a wolf uses ‘dark aspects’ and kills as dear for the continuation of nature, however this does not make the wolf evil. Instead evil is the separate ‘Dark Side of the Force’ which is an unnatural state where these dark aspects corrupt.

As such when the Son falls to the Dark Side of the Force he creates an unnecessary imbalance because he is now to powerful for balance to be maintained. This makes the Son allied with the Dark Side of the Force, which unlike the essential ‘dark aspects’, creates an evil and cancerous mutation which is unnecessary in nature.

Summarized:

  • The Force, naturally, is holistic and has no light and dark; intelligent beings make these distinctions
  • As such it exists naturally ‘in balance’ (when human differentiation is taken into account) with equal ‘light and dark aspects’
  • If you have to many dark (and possibly light) aspects you will fall to the unnatural state of the Dark Side of the Force
  • The Dark Side of the Force is a cancer which creates Evil in the universe and thus imbalance

As such the Force can be illustrated as follows:

The Force
Light Aspects Dark Aspects
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------|
The Dark Side

I hope that helps explain the concept of the Force now prevalent in Star Wars. I am unsure of how the ‘Mortis’ arc relates to the ‘temporal world’ (whether it is literal, metaphorical or reflection), however I’ll form my opinions on that following the last episode of the trilogy.

Hopefully you guys can find a way to get this ‘definition’ to the listeners, because if you don’t understand the concept it could understandably create misunderstanding and discourse.

Thanks for reading,
DarthPhilosopher (TFN Forums), IndianaKenobi (Rebelscum Forums)
Is that concept something we all now agree on? Because it seems to integrate everything everyone was and is saying...






TheFraze said:
And with the preview of next week, we have characters actually envisioning the events of Episode III... this makes no sense at all. It really undermines the already underwhelming events that led to Anakin's fall.
Not really... this is typical of a Greek Tragedy Prophecy where the future is set out before the Tragic Hero and he is told “this is your possible future”... in turn the Hero and those around him attempt to do everything possible to prevent such an occurrence, however ultimately despite this the very actions they take to avoid it actually lead to it occurring. Such is fate...

This is not unlike the Prophecy of Oedipus Rex where in, as a boy, Oedipus is said to have the destiny that he will murder his father and marry his mother. To avoid such a thing the perants attempt to ‘dispose’ of the boy, however he is taken in by a distant royal family who he thinks to be his real mother and father. When the boy is a man he is given the same prophecy. Believing his adopted parents are his real ones he leaves the kingdom, returns to his original home (coincidently) and murders his true father and marries his true mother. All attempts to avoid the prophecy actually lead to it occurring...
 
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Thank you for sharing that e-mail with me, IndianaKenobi. It really is one of the most intelligent analyses on this subject that I have read. It's still a little hard for me to separate the "good" dark aspects of the Force from the "evil" Dark Side, but I guess I'll get used to it. I really hope Jason & Jimmy cover your e-mail, because it really has some excellent content in it.

Since you seem to have this new Force mythology thing all figured out, I have to run something else by you. You very accurately defined the Dark Side and WHY it is evil and "unnatural" as Palpatine would say. Now, however, let's talk about the Light Side, and what exactly that means. I'm not talking about the "light aspects" of the Force, but rather the Light SIDE that the Jedi serve.

It stands to reason that if the Dark SIDE is evil, then serving the Light SIDE is good. Correct? Why is it good? Because this is where the idea of the Forcing having a WILL comes into play. If the Force does indeed have a conscious will (which is implied multiple times throughout the saga) and the Force itself is "good", then we must assume that the Force has a will to BRING ABOUT good outcomes and work AGAINST the Dark Side in the galaxy. At least that's the way I see it.

So what does it mean to align oneself with the Light Side? Well, I think the Daughter illustrated that best in "Altar of Mortis" when she (without hesitation) gave up her life for another. A follower of the Light Side is selfless, willing to put his or her own personal wants and needs SECOND compared to their commitment to the Force. They use their ability to feel the Force in a way that honors the Force and carries out its good will. Just as Christians, for example, make themselves available to be used by God to carry out His good will for their lives, so too do Jedi make themselves available to be used and guided by the will of the Force. They do not just simply USE the Force, but they allow the Force to use THEM. It's a symbiotic relationship where the Jedi become physical extensions of the Force's will to bring about good in the galaxy.

So, what is your opinion? Am I way off in this, or does this theory have some merit? Is following the Light Side essentially mean following the benevolent will of the Force, which is the "natural" way things should be?
 
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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Not really... this is typical of a Greek Tragedy Prophecy where the future is set out before the Tragic Hero and he is told “this is your possible future”... in turn the Hero and those around him attempt to do everything possible to prevent such an occurrence, however ultimately despite this the very actions they take to avoid it actually lead to it occurring. Such is fate...

This is not unlike the Prophecy of Oedipus Rex where in, as a boy, Oedipus is said to have the destiny that he will murder his father and marry his mother. To avoid such a thing the perants attempt to ‘dispose’ of the boy, however he is taken in by a distant royal family who he thinks to be his real mother and father. When the boy is a man he is given the same prophecy. Believing his adopted parents are his real ones he leaves the kingdom, returns to his original home (coincidently) and murders his true father and marries his true mother. All attempts to avoid the prophecy actually lead to it occurring...

[/QUOTE]

I understand Greek Tragedy... just because it's been done before doesn't justify its use here and now in an episode of Clone Wars. The concept is fine... and the foreshadowing has been done before in Star Wars with Luke seeing a City in the Clouds, Anakin seeing Padme die during childbirth - but this is much different. This is a scenario where Anakin will witness his battle with Obi-Wan and his own fate... would this not be something they talked about prior to the events of EP3?

"Oh hey, remember that time my non-existent padawan accompanied you and I in that crazy cartoon series where we met God and his children and had that crazy vision about me killing my secret wife and then we had this sweet lightsaber battle on that lava planet...but you had the high ground so you cut off all my limbs..."

Obi-Wan replies, "yeah, what was the deal with that Padawan... we never talk about her, even though we're totally in Episode III right now."

Anakin, "Yeah... what was the deal with that? Somehow I'm on the jedi council and I'm not a jedi master.. and I"m still being treated like a child, even though I was trusted with a padawan...whatever happened to her."

Obi-Wan, "Not to worry my friend - there's no way we're going to a lava planet or having a lightsaber battle. I'd never cut your limbs off or turn you into that crazy iron lung cyborg we saw in that vision..."
 
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DuroDude said:
Thank you for sharing that e-mail with me, IndianaKenobi. It really is one of the most intelligent analyses on this subject that I have read. It's still a little hard for me to separate the "good" dark aspects of the Force from the "evil" Dark Side, but I guess I'll get used to it. I really hope Jason & Jimmy cover your e-mail, because it really has some excellent content in it.

Since you seem to have this new Force mythology thing all figured out, I have to run something else by you. You very accurately defined the Dark Side and WHY it is evil and "unnatural" as Palpatine would say. Now, however, let's talk about the Light Side, and what exactly that means. I'm not talking about the "light aspects" of the Force, but rather the Light SIDE that the Jedi serve.

It stands to reason that if the Dark SIDE is evil, then serving the Light SIDE is good. Correct? Why is it good? Because this is where the idea of the Forcing having a WILL comes into play. If the Force does indeed have a conscious will (which is implied multiple times throughout the saga) and the Force itself is "good", then we must assume that the Force has a will to BRING ABOUT good outcomes and work AGAINST the Dark Side in the galaxy. At least that's the way I see it.

So what does it mean to align oneself with the Light Side? Well, I think the Daughter illustrated that best in "Altar of Mortis" when she (without hesitation) gave up her life for another. A follower of the Light Side is selfless, willing to put his or her own personal wants and needs SECOND compared to their commitment to the Force. They use their ability to feel the Force in a way that honors the Force and carries out its good will. Just as Christians, for example, make themselves available to be used by God to carry out His good will for their lives, so too do Jedi make themselves available to be used and guided by the will of the Force. They do not just simply USE the Force, but they allow the Force to use THEM. It's a symbiotic relationship where the Jedi become physical extensions of the Force's will to bring about good in the galaxy.

So, what is your opinion? Am I way off in this, or does this theory have some merit? Is following the Light Side essentially mean following the benevolent will of the Force, which is the "natural" way things should be?
Thanks for the compliments mate. I could very well be wrong in all of this, however I think it may the most unconvoluted wayof explaining it. I'll take the time to deconstruct your argument later, however I have skimmed over it and I think I can answer it generally:

Essentially I think the Light Side, by it's nature, cannot corrupt in the way dark aspects do. It is stated in the 'news reel' that the Daughter already aligns with the Light Side which makes me think it doesn't cause an imbalance...

Anyway I'll have more on this later for you... (typing a the Dog park at the moment on an iPad
)
 
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Hey, thanks! I look forward to your more in-depth response. So far, I agree with everything you said. I also do not believe the Light Side is capable of corrupting. That seems to go against its very nature.
 
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I wonder if the absence of a commentary on this episode guide is the Lucas people’s subtle way of telling us to think for ourselves and that each of us should see what we want to see with this episode.
 
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Darth_Engelhast said:
I wonder if the absence of a commentary on this episode guide is the Lucas people’s subtle way of telling us to think for ourselves and that each of us should see what we want to see with this episode.
I genuinely don't think he gave even close to enough thought about what "bringing balance to the force" meant when he wrote those lines in Episode 1. Sounded cool, was kinda mysterious, made for a good sound bite in the trailer...NOW he has to actually explain it, and there's really no good way. I thought this episode was great, and I like what's being done here, but at the end of the day it's just a Clone Wars Band-aid on bad prequel writing. At least it gets us well away from midi-chlorians and back into the mysticism of the force.
 
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Eric_Geller said:
Darth_Engelhast said:
I wonder if the absence of a commentary on this episode guide is the Lucas people’s subtle way of telling us to think for ourselves and that each of us should see what we want to see with this episode.
Nope.

http://twitter.com/infinata/status/33770972569927680
Why move it to Monday, Dave rarely goes into great depth on anything in the commentaries but they go nicely with the finished episode guides...
 
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Watched the first two episodes again back to back and the LOST similarities keep pooping up. Several of the chapters start and break with a close up of one of the character eyes opening which was a major trademark on LOST. Each season started that way. Also the flash of white light that consumed the ship was very similar to the white outs on the insatiable Island in the final season of LOST. I can’t believe I am the only one noticing this stuff.
 
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^ Another similarity: Daughter said she was a guardian of the power. Mother, Jacob and so on were called protectors of the island's power.
 
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Another top-shelf episode. Really, we could go on for hours about the visuals and animation. That swoop towards the camera from the shuttle at the beginning was pure Star Wars awesomeness. It's incredible that this is a weekly show. I can't wait to see these second half of season 3 episodes on a huge tv on blu-ray. One day...

The music too shows that Kevin Kiner is really hitting his stride. The Savage Opress trilogy, and these two have had the best music yet, and the perfectly timed use of Williams music in this episode was again brilliant.

I didn't think this was as 'oh my god' as Overlords, but it was still still amazing. I guess one thing that made me go 'huh?' was when the Son was described as 'slipping to the Dark Side'. How can someone who embodies the Dark Side slip to the Dark Side? That was my only problem, I guess.

There's been a lot of discussion already about what bringing balance to the force might mean. I'm starting to think that it might mean that someone can safely hold both sides within them, and still be a 'good' person. This would mirror the reality of how people are in our own world. Remember, the Son says that Anakin will destroy both the Jedi and the Sith. To me, they are both too much of one thing, and perhaps Luke, who has grown up outside the dogma of either, is able to use both sides in a balanced way, and IS that balance that is prophecised.

I totally agree with Cayman_Shen tho'...


cayman_shen said:
I genuinely don't think he gave even close to enough thought about what "bringing balance to the force" meant when he wrote those lines in Episode 1. Sounded cool, was kinda mysterious, made for a good sound bite in the trailer...NOW he has to actually explain it, and there's really no good way. I thought this episode was great, and I like what's being done here, but at the end of the day it's just a Clone Wars Band-aid on bad prequel writing. At least it gets us well away from midi-chlorians and back into the mysticism of the force.
Yessiree bob!
 
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Darth_Satanas said:
I guess one thing that made me go 'huh?' was when the Son was described as 'slipping to the Dark Side'. How can someone who embodies the Dark Side slip to the Dark Side? That was my only problem, I guess.
I initially was confused by this; however I reasoned that it was perhaps possible the Son was initially the ‘natural darkness’ within nature (balanced), however the Dark Side is some extreme of this thus creating evil. They should have made it clear in Overlords that he wasn’t the Dark Side but rather an un-extreme ‘natural’ version of it. The Father seems to describe the ‘Dark Side’ as something ‘other’ than what the Son originally was... anyway I address this in my e-mail to the team above.

Darth_Satanas said:
I'm starting to think that it might mean that someone can safely hold both sides within them, and still be a 'good' person. This would mirror the reality of how people are in our own world. Remember, the Son says that Anakin will destroy both the Jedi and the Sith.
Yes. I believe what they are trying to say here is that the ‘inherent good’ which Judeo-Christian teachings suggest is not derived from the absence of darkness, but rather a balance between light and dark (so it essentially takes the concept and turns it into something Judeo-Christians disagree with I guess). It is important to note that light and dark are not necessarily good (yes, even ‘light’). Instead, rather, when they are balanced they create ‘good’. I believe this ‘good’ is represented in the Father. The Daughter and Son are metaphorical representations of the ‘light’ aspects and the ‘dark’ aspects of the Force. When balanced they create good. When imbalanced they lead to the Dark Side of the Force and thus the unnatural state of evil... so essentially ‘light’ and ‘dark’ are essential aspects which create the naturally ‘Inherently Good Force’.

I think that is the only way it can be explained. Yes, it doesn’t exactly work, however I guess it doesn’t necessarily need to.
 
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