Rogue One Thoughts & Reviews

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very true. I'm just saying, she lit the spark. the rebellion was like a pile of dry tinder and kindling carefully constructed like a campfire waiting for a match to light it.. it was ready to ignite.. but it hadn't actually DONE anything yet.

she lit the spark that started the ball rolling. that 'spark' (of Hope) was the same spark that we see in TLJ, passed by luke onto the rest of the galaxy.. Luke keeps the spark alive, by his actions at the end of TLJ.

Jyn's spark-of-hope had almost died out completely by the end of TLJ -- the Rebellion was all but defeated. but Luke stoked the flame and got it going again.



I'm just saying the "hope" that SW talks about (as a central theme of the saga) actually started with Jyn .. the REST of the rebellion was unwilling at the time, to EVEN stick their toe in the water and get the fight 'started', because they didn't have her sense of "hope" about the whole thing.

without her, the rebellion would not have gone to Scarrif. so in THAT way, she "started" it -- she LIT the 'olympic flame' (metaphor) to be passed along by others -- she spread her own tiny "hope" to the entire galaxy -- this is a successful hero-quest. this is not a tragedy. just saying.
 
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I don't think kids are dumb, they just don't pay too much attention to the complexity of the story. We didn't learn until much later that Vader was a tortured soul, unlike the simple Evil character we thought he was. SW was about Good vs. Evil in space. Who'd of thought that it all began with Trade taxation! lol
 
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Watched Rogue One again tonight for the first time since the start of the year. Such a visually beautiful, thematically strong piece of work. So many little touches that betray how much Edwards loves and understands the world of Star Wars.

He may have needed Gilroy's oversight to pull the film together but Edwards deserves another shot IMO.
 
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Watched Rogue One again tonight for the first time since the start of the year. Such a visually beautiful, thematically strong piece of work. So many little touches that betray how much Edwards loves and understands the world of Star Wars.

He may have needed Gilroy's oversight to pull the film together but Edwards deserves another shot IMO.
For my money, I think Rogue One is the best Star Wars experience since the Originals...and arguably better than Jedi in ways. I really admired it for its guts, being that going in I knew the right thing to do was kill them all off...but being that it's Disney, I just didn't think they'd do it. By God, they did. It's the most authentic feeling SW since the Originals for me.

Gareth Edwards is a wonderful director, but largely a rookie. I was a big fan of his film Monsters, it's more an art-house piece but it really showed depth and character more than a generic monster movie. Truthfully, it's not really a monster movie at all. It's essentially a story of two people trying to get home and falling in love, just seasoned with monsters here and there. Then when he did Godzilla, I was underwhelmed. Now that IS a generic monster movie. I didn't dislike it, I was just highly disappointed as I was extremely excited for it. I always call it MUTO: Featuring Godzilla because Godzilla is BARELY in it. I also got highly annoyed with the constant barrage of about to show Godzilla...and then cut away. It happens countless times. So many teases. Plus killing Bryan Cranston like ten minutes into the movie!? So I was iffy on if Rogue one would be any good, I was 50/50 on Edwards.

But he really knocked his SW out of the park. I like the Vietnam-like feel it has. This really is the first time we actually get to witness the WAR in Star WARS. Prior we only really got to see the OT war through glimpses seen through the eyes of the main heroes, those films really being less about the war and more about the Skywalkers. So it was really cool to get an almost space-marine POV of the grunts, the peoples people.
 
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I admit that it's my favorite of all the new movies. And I was the biggest opponent to doing more movies set in that era, specifically days/minutes prior to ANH.
But once I take off that hat, and watch if from a different perspective it i easier to accept. I still don't care for some of characters and their take on them, as well as some background usage. etc. But overall it's decent, and at least re-watchable.
 
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For my money, I think Rogue One is the best Star Wars experience since the Originals...and arguably better than Jedi in ways. I really admired it for its guts, being that going in I knew the right thing to do was kill them all off...but being that it's Disney, I just didn't think they'd do it. By God, they did. It's the most authentic feeling SW since the Originals for me.

Gareth Edwards is a wonderful director, but largely a rookie. I was a big fan of his film Monsters, it's more an art-house piece but it really showed depth and character more than a generic monster movie. Truthfully, it's not really a monster movie at all. It's essentially a story of two people trying to get home and falling in love, just seasoned with monsters here and there. Then when he did Godzilla, I was underwhelmed. Now that IS a generic monster movie.

But he really knocked his SW out of the park. I like the Vietnam-like feel it has. This really is the first time we actually get to witness the WAR in Star WARS. Prior we only really got to see the OT war through glimpses seen through the eyes of the main heroes, those films really being less about the war and more about the Skywalkers. So it was really cool to get an almost space-marine POV of the grunts, the peoples people.
Agree with everything stated above. Rouge One is among my top three favorite SW films, right up there with the OT - IMHO it's even superior to ROTJ. The story, acting, and effects/action scenes were all stellar. The Death Troopers, Scarif Stormtroopers, Blue/Grey Mon Calamari aliens, X-wing Fighters, etc. were great nods to the fans. In fact, I would even have to saw that R1 was quite possibly a perfect film in every sense, which doesn't happen too often.

Monsters was a great movie; I saw it several years back & need to watch it again at some point. It definitely had an independent feel/vibe, while also having some Hollywood big-budget aspects as well. Conversely, I was extremely disappointed in Edwards' Godzilla - it was an obvious big budget film, but missed the mark from so many different standpoints. I preferred Godzilla '98 & felt that was a much stronger film, but that's another subject....
 
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Perhaps everybody else already knows about this, but if anyone’s clueless to it like myself until just now, and stumbled onto the comic 6-part series adaptation of RO, this offering expands on the film version for some interesting parts, and doesn’t just follow it beat-per-beat. Using Gareth’s original treatment, it offers more insight to some more character development, like: Galen and Bodhi’s relationship; and when the Bugatti creature taps into Bodhi’s mind, we see his memories of childhood, Galen etc-- as well as a thoughtful exchange between K2 and Bodhi about their "deprogramming".

The artwork is inconsistent in some parts, and could be much better overall. Wished they didn’t make such an attempt at the actors’ likeness, since such efforts end up looking goofy in some of the work.

It’s not quite an EE of the film of course— and with the way Disney markets these films for home releases, it’s probably only wishful thinking to expect any sort of EE anytime soon. But this comic-adaptation with extended-scenes is still a nice addition to RO’s story. Much like how the Art Of... book really has me appreciate TPM so much more, this comic-adaptation of RO (along with its Art Of.. book), really elevates the RO epesnion-experience overall.
 
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I've never been interested in Star Wars, ever. So I had no reverence for it whatsoever. I was unafraid about that. And they were in such a swamp, they were in so much terrible, terrible trouble that all you could do was improve their position.

Finally— someone who admits to not giving a f*ck about SW LOOOL Â…And still, the end results proved extremely far far far superior than the rip-off pretenders JJ and Rian who professed their adoration for this franchise.
Interesting. So, someone who was involved with one of the best SW movies is not a fan?! If so, I hope more non-fans are involved with these new films. Rouge One is my 2nd favorite SW film, only behind ESB.

Perhaps everybody else already knows about this, but if anyone’s clueless to it like myself until just now, and stumbled onto the comic 6-part series adaptation of RO, this offering expands on the film version for some interesting parts, and doesn’t just follow it beat-per-beat. Using Gareth’s original treatment, it offers more insight to some more character development, like: Galen and Bodhi’s relationship; and when the Bugatti creature taps into Bodhi’s mind, we see his memories of childhood, Galen etc-- as well as a thoughtful exchange between K2 and Bodhi about their "deprogramming".
Good to know. I stopped collecting new SW comics when Marvel re-took over the franchise so didn't even know about this Rogue One comic adaptation, but may check it out - given the great above review; the last title I collected was the Star Wars self-titled series that DH came out with, which ended in 2014.
 
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I think the part where all the Rebel ships started to hyperspace in to Scariff sealed the deal for me. I wasn't expecting a large scale battle like that. I was saying to myself "AWESOME!"
 
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^^ in the theater the first time, my face hurt from smiling. I think I broke something. good times.
 
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For my money, I think Rogue One is the best Star Wars experience since the Originals...and arguably better than Jedi in ways. I really admired it for its guts, being that going in I knew the right thing to do was kill them all off...but being that it's Disney, I just didn't think they'd do it. By God, they did. It's the most authentic feeling SW since the Originals for me.

Gareth Edwards is a wonderful director, but largely a rookie. I was a big fan of his film Monsters, it's more an art-house piece but it really showed depth and character more than a generic monster movie. Truthfully, it's not really a monster movie at all. It's essentially a story of two people trying to get home and falling in love, just seasoned with monsters here and there. Then when he did Godzilla, I was underwhelmed. Now that IS a generic monster movie. I didn't dislike it, I was just highly disappointed as I was extremely excited for it. I always call it MUTO: Featuring Godzilla because Godzilla is BARELY in it. I also got highly annoyed with the constant barrage of about to show Godzilla...and then cut away. It happens countless times. So many teases. Plus killing Bryan Cranston like ten minutes into the movie!? So I was iffy on if Rogue one would be any good, I was 50/50 on Edwards.

But he really knocked his SW out of the park. I like the Vietnam-like feel it has. This really is the first time we actually get to witness the WAR in Star WARS. Prior we only really got to see the OT war through glimpses seen through the eyes of the main heroes, those films really being less about the war and more about the Skywalkers. So it was really cool to get an almost space-marine POV of the grunts, the peoples people.
my only problem with Rogue one is they don't go far enough into the dark side of the rebellion. They hint at it when Cassian kills the informant and then is about to kill Galen Orso but they really play it safe. It also would have been nice to see Jynn with more of a dark streak. But other then that it was a good star wars movie and exactly what I wanted to see in the spin off movies.
 
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I think they do just enough to show that the Rebels are willing to do anything in their fight with the Empire, including assassination and the killing of innocents.

If there's one issue I have with the film, it Jyn knocking the shit out of a squad of stormtroopers with a stick. An 8 stone, 5 ft nothing, girl should not be getting the better of a group of 6ft armed and armoured men...with a baton. And there's just no need for a stupid scene like that. Make her a crack shot or something and have her take them out from afar.

There's only so much you can suspend your disbelief for and then then you start to, almost, feel insulted.
 
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Jyn is problematic from the get-go. She is way too passive with stuff just happening to her rather than her making things happen through her actions. Things pick up for her in the final third when she starts affecting change which funnily enough is when the movie starts getting really good...
 
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my only problem with Rogue one is they don't go far enough into the dark side of the rebellion. They hint at it when Cassian kills the informant and then is about to kill Galen Orso but they really play it safe. It also would have been nice to see Jynn with more of a dark streak.
I'm the opposite. Star Wars morality is binary - good and evil / light and dark. I don't necessarily mind amoral Han Solo types but by making your protagonist just as amoral (as opposed to idealistic) there's no room there for your characters to learn from one another.
 
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Jyn is problematic from the get-go. She is way too passive with stuff just happening to her rather than her making things happen through her actions. Things pick up for her in the final third when she starts affecting change which funnily enough is when the movie starts getting really good...

I think Jyn Erso is fine character, despite the misfire writing of a couple of scenes. Also, not every character has to move the story along by their actions. Everybody reacts to situations that they find themselves in, largely through no action by themselves. A character can be moved along by story events and still be a good character. In general, life happens TO people. They don't don't make it happen.

Also, I think 'Rogue One' is good all the way through. I don't understand this "it's only good in the second half" thing. The first half is absolutely essential to the events of the second half.

Erso's story, personality, character and actions make sense (ridiculous fighting ability notwithstanding) and she's a far more realistic and interesting character than Rey will ever be. Because she has an actual character.

'Rogue One' should be the template for future Star Wars films. It's easily the best Star Wars item since 1983.
 
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^^^ Jyn taking out a squad of armed stormtroopers is not the only eye-rolling moment (although it’s to be expected that such blatant displays of “empowerment” moments for any female lead in nuSW): Right after Chirrut takes down another squad of troopers, another squad quickly shows up without anyone knowing they’re on the way until they appear right before our heroes LOL And right after that, Saw’s Guerrillas seemed to have materialized out of the nearby surroundings as no one hears them coming until they’re literally right next to our heroes LOOOL

I think the part where all the Rebel ships started to hyperspace in to Scariff sealed the deal for me. I wasn't expecting a large scale battle like that. I was saying to myself "AWESOME!"
That’s already well into the 3rd act LOL

I was intrigued from the very start (as in the trailers with Forest's "Save the Rebellion. Save the Dream". Weeps). From the intro of RO, it already was its own confident story, with its tribute to ANH’s opening of the Destroyer’s underbelly looming menacingly to dominate the screen— except… it’s the angle and composition of the rings of a planet that resembles that iconic intro of ANH. Now that’s an unique eye Gareth has— and how a talent pays homage, not lazily copying and pasting like JJ and Rian. The entire RO campaign from trailer to movie-experience has been stellar. It’s the only SW movie of which I bought the soundtrack. That moment when the Destroyer comes crashing down on the shield generator, and that string orchestration fills the scene… OMG— what a stunning visual and audio feast: Both the lightness of being and the death of a colossus perfectly intertwined. I weep.
 
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If there's one issue I have with the film, it Jyn knocking the shit out of a squad of stormtroopers with a stick. An 8 stone, 5 ft nothing, girl should not be getting the better of a group of 6ft armed and armoured men...with a baton. And there's just no need for a stupid scene like that. Make her a crack shot or something and have her take them out from afar.

There's only so much you can suspend your disbelief for and then then you start to, almost, feel insulted.
I have the same problem with several movies that do the same thing. Sure, with a Superhero or Jedi type characters you expect something like that. But not for normal standard citizens. It's a simple fact that most Women aren't as physically strong as their Male counterparts, let alone 4-5 to one. So while she might get the upper hand against one opponent with the combination of skill and luck. It's very difficult to believe she made a squad of Troopers look like rag dolls. This type of stuff needs to be scaled down a few notches.

Though It's not just American Hollywood Movies either, I've seen this happen in Foreign hysterical TV and Movies.

I guess that since they base a Movie with some Fantasy elements, sky is the limit with anything.
When they focus more on the story and expect the actor to "act", instead of over sensationalizing. Maybe we can start getting good movies?
 
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Jyn is problematic from the get-go. She is way too passive with stuff just happening to her rather than her making things happen through her actions. Things pick up for her in the final third when she starts affecting change which funnily enough is when the movie starts getting really good...
I can understand why you may dismiss her introverted, withdrawn, anti-social demeanour as “passive" on first impression. But there’s not the remotest touch of a passive steak that runs through Jyn’s careful characterization at all.

From a young age, she’s shown to have witnessed the murder of her mother, and imprisonment of her father. And the Empire isn’t her only source of pain and sorrow. From thereon in, she has developed into Saw’s most powerful fighter— only to be abandoned by him at 16. She is disillusioned, damaged and hardened, both physically and mentally, withdrawn into her own self. having lost faith in humanity. She even mentions to Cassian that she’s "not used to people sticking around…”

But despite her experience of betrayal from both the Empire and the Alliance, she is the one that takes the initiative to head to Scarif and fulfill her father’s plan. That is an extremely well-developed character, going from absolute self-preservation because of her hardened life, to selfless-sacrifice for a cause that is greater than the Alliance, towards her end of her life. With only a single film, her arc is so amazingly developed.

Jyn Erso is by far the best character in any SW Story by leaps and bounds. She is absolutely relatable and yet completely idealized. (And on a purely superficial level, I couldn’t stand Felicity’s mousey appearance initially. But once the story and her performance won me over, her “looks” never became a distraction to her performance and character.
 
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Jyn taking out a squad of armed stormtroopers is not the only eye-rolling moment (although it’s to be expected that such blatant displays of “empowerment” moments for any female lead in nuSW):
I have the same problem with several movies that do the same thing. Sure, with a Superhero or Jedi type characters you expect something like that. But not for normal standard citizens. It's a simple fact that most Women aren't as physically strong as their Male counterparts, let alone 4-5 to one. So while she might get the upper hand against one opponent with the combination of skill and luck. It's very difficult to believe she made a squad of Troopers look like rag dolls. This type of stuff needs to be scaled down a few notches.
It's taking "strong female character" in its most basic, literal, sense. Unfortunately, it ends up looking ridiculous and, in a way, intellectually insulting to everybody, including women.

Though It's not just American Hollywood Movies either, I've seen this happen in Foreign hysterical TV and Movies. I guess that since they base a Movie with some Fantasy elements, sky is the limit with anything.
It shoudln't be.

But, it's not only a problem with Jyn. Chirrut takes out a squad with a stick. That had me rolling my eyes too. But, in my head, he's a layman force user. I have to see it that way, in order to help suspend my disbelief at his antics. Unfortunately, there's just no excuse for Jyn "uber fightin' skillz".

However, 'Rogue One' is so bloody good, that these little missteps are easier to forgive. It's a satisfying steak, with one or two bits of fat that doesn't ruin the meal.
 
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I can understand why you may dismiss her introverted, withdrawn, anti-social demeanour as “passive" on first impression. But there’s not the remotest touch of a passive steak that runs through Jyn’s careful characterization at all.
Yes, at the start at the third act which I already said is when things start picking up.

I'm not talking about her personality though - I'm talking about her impact on the narrative. She makes no decisions or takes any action that has any bearing on the plot.

We meet adult Jyn in prison and then she is rescued. She doesn't save herself. She is then taken to Yavin with no say in the matter. She is then presented with a none choice of either going to Jedha or back to prison - no real say in the matter. She is then captured again and only freed when they know who she is - no say in the matter. She is then taken to Eadu with... no say in the matter. She makes a decision here to go to her father....who then dies independently of anything she just did. She is then taken back to Yavin. None of that is her decision or doing. Only when they get to Yavin does she start to assert herself.

Compare to say Luke or even Rey (which I'm sure will get your heckles up) who actively participate in the narrative making decisions and taking direct courses of action which affect the plot - Luke chooses to look for R2 which leads him to Ben. He chooses to go with Ben which leads him to Leia. He chooses to rescue Leia which leads him to the Rebellion. Likewise, Rey chooses to rescue BB-8 which leads her to Finn. She chooses to help Finn which leads her to Han and ultimately the Resistance, Luke and beyond. Yes, there are certain things that happen *to* them but they are not simply passengers in the narrative like Jyn is for large portions.

It's fine though; you can have a passive protagonist as long as they're affecting change in others and influencing others in their decisions which she kinda does with Cassian and Saw etc.
 
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Yes, at the start at the third act which I already said is when things start picking up.

I'm not talking about her personality though - I'm talking about her impact on the narrative. She makes no decisions or takes any action that has any bearing on the plot.
She decides to go to meet Saw and then decides to try and rescue her father, both of which have direct consequences on the plot.
 
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She decides to go to meet Saw and then decides to try and rescue her father, both of which have direct consequences on the plot.
She doesn't decide to go to Saw - she is told to go or she goes back to prison.

And she does decide to try to rescue her father but that choice has no impact - he dies anyway. And it's not like him dying maybe spurs Jyn on to join the cause - she was fully on board with the Rebellion before they get to Eadu. And it's not like he imparts any new information to her (and the audience) with his dying words - everything the plot (and characters) needed was revealed in his hologram message.

She doesn't do anything of consequence of her own free will in the entire first two thirds.

Like I said, it's not necessarily a bad thing though - loads of good movies have passive main characters simply reacting to what's happening around them.
 
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We meet adult Jyn in prison and then she is rescued. She doesn't save herself. She is then taken to Yavin with no say in the matter. She is then presented with a none choice of either going to Jedha or back to prison - no real say in the matter. She is then captured again and only freed when they know who she is - no say in the matter. She is then taken to Eadu with... no say in the matter. She makes a decision here to go to her father....who then dies independently of anything she just did. She is then taken back to Yavin. None of that is her decision or doing. Only when they get to Yavin does she start to assert herself.

Compare to say Luke or even Rey (which I'm sure will get your heckles up) who actively participate in the narrative making decisions and taking direct courses of action which affect the plot - Luke chooses to look for R2 which leads him to Ben. He chooses to go with Ben which leads him to Leia. He chooses to rescue Leia which leads him to the Rebellion. Likewise, Rey chooses to rescue BB-8 which leads her to Finn. She chooses to help Finn which leads her to Han and ultimately the Resistance, Luke and beyond. Yes, there are certain things that happen *to* them but they are not simply passengers in the narrative like Jyn is for large portions.
I feel that Jyn started making decisions for herself as soon as she decides to seek out her father & he is then killed. The decision to seek out her father was not passive, and was actually the turning point in her character arc.

And, have to respectfully disagree that Luke wasn't a definite passive protagonist in ANH until his aunt & uncle are killed by the Empire. His decision to go after R2-D2 was only done because he knew his Uncle would be angry for spending $ on a robot that "escaped", and he was just going to search for R2 and bring him back to the moisture farm. He then ended up getting attacked by the Sandpeople & saved by Obi-wan. And, even after showing Obi-wan the hologram & having the meaning/importance of this explained to him, he stated that he was going to have to go back & help his aunt & uncle with the farm & couldn't leave - even though Obi-wan obviously needed his help.

It's only after he discovers the death of his Aunt & Uncle (at the hands of the Empire) that he decides to go with Obi-wan - partially because he wants revenge against the Empire re: the death of Beru & Owen, and partially also because there is no reason for him to stay on Tattoine any longer.

So, if Owen & Beru had NOT been killed, I have no doubt that Luke would NOT have gone with Obi-wan & would have stayed in Tattoine. Of course, if that had occurred ANH would have been a short movie - LOL.
 
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She doesn't decide to go to Saw - she is told to go or she goes back to prison.
Yes, so she decides to go to see Saw as opposed to deciding to go back to prison. She's made a decision based on the set of circumstances before her.

And she does decide to try to rescue her father but that choice has no impact - he dies anyway.
So what? She has still decided to try and rescue her dad. It doesn't whether she succeeds or not. She's made an active decision that has actual consequences.

The fact is Erso has made decisions that have direct effect of the plot of the film. She's being influenced by events, as everybody in real life is, but she is also making decisions too.
 
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^^ this all reminds me of the Big Bang episode where Amy explains to Sheldon that "Indiana Jones" had no influence on the plot of his own movie. Hilarity ensues. :p
 
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Yes, so she decides to go to see Saw as opposed to deciding to go back to prison. She's made a decision based on the set of circumstances before her.
If I said "do this thing or I'll shoot you in the head" are you going to sit there and think about it? She doesn't choose between two paths - she submits to the only option available.

So what? She has still decided to try and rescue her dad. It doesn't whether she succeeds or not. She's made an active decision that has actual consequences.
It doesn't though. He dies if she's there or not.

I've already said that it's fine though - even Cobalt below has pointed out the oft-mentioned Raiders example and that's one of the greatest films of all time. The difference is that Jyn is active in the last act of her movie whereas Indy is passive in his. The former is probably preferable. Raiders is a fluke of writing and directing that let's it get away with it.
 
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I feel that Jyn started making decisions for herself as soon as she decides to seek out her father & he is then killed. The decision to seek out her father was not passive, and was actually the turning point in her character arc.
Nope. She was fully on-board with the Rebellion BEFORE they get to Eadu:

JYN: No. We can beat the people who did this. My father’s message, I’ve seen it.They call it the Death Star. But they have no idea there’s a way to defeat it!

It was, however, the turning point in Cassian's arc which is why it's fine to have a passive protagonist for while if they affect change in others (see also Taylor in Planet of the Apes).

And, have to respectfully disagree that Luke wasn't a definite passive protagonist in ANH until his aunt & uncle are killed by the Empire. His decision to go after R2-D2 was only done because he knew his Uncle would be angry for spending $ on a robot that "escaped", and he was just going to search for R2 and bring him back to the moisture farm. He then ended up getting attacked by the Sandpeople & saved by Obi-wan. And, even after showing Obi-wan the hologram & having the meaning/importance of this explained to him, he stated that he was going to have to go back & help his aunt & uncle with the farm & couldn't leave - even though Obi-wan obviously needed his help.

It's only after he discovers the death of his Aunt & Uncle (at the hands of the Empire) that he decides to go with Obi-wan - partially because he wants revenge against the Empire re: the death of Beru & Owen, and partially also because there is no reason for him to stay on Tattoine any longer.

So, if Owen & Beru had NOT been killed, I have no doubt that Luke would NOT have gone with Obi-wan & would have stayed in Tattoine. Of course, if that had occurred ANH would have been a short movie - LOL
They're decisions he has to make though. He can either tell his Uncle about R2 (and as an aside it's even down to Luke that they have R2 at all) running off and get in trouble or go after him and bring him back. He makes a choice as an active protagonist (telling is about his character) and the consequence is that the heroes journey begins (Call To Adventure, Refusal Of The Call, Meeting The Mentor etc).

After Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru are killed he is presented with a decision to make. It's not the case that he has NO CHOICE other than to go with Obi-Wan. Sticking around, sorting out the funeral, the farm etc is a viable choice, albeit the less exciting one for the audience...

He is presented with two paths and chooses the Obi-Wan... one... and hijinks ensue.

The difference between a passive or active protagonist isn't in the choices they make; it's if they're given the choices *to* make.
 
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If I said "do this thing or I'll shoot you in the head" are you going to sit there and think about it? She doesn't choose between two paths - she submits to the only option available.
She wasn't told that she was going to get shot in the head though.

The Rebels gave her a choice. She took it and it moved the story along.

I've already said that it's fine though - even Cobalt below has pointed out the oft-mentioned Raiders example and that's one of the greatest films of all time. The difference is that Jyn is active in the last act of her movie whereas Indy is passive in his. The former is probably preferable. Raiders is a fluke of writing and directing that let's it get away with it.
This is where I disagree with you. I don't think she's just active in the last act. Nor, do I believe a character HAS to be moving the story along all the time to be considered a good character.

I also don't think Indiana Jones is a passive character either in 'Raiders of the Lost Ark'. He makes choices all the time that pushes the plot along. He chooses to go after the Ark in the first place.
 
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As I understand the theory about Indy in Raiders, it's not so much that he's "passive" in the sense that he doesn't do anything. He does plenty. And a lot of what he does absolutely has an impact on the plot. The point is, the OUTCOME of the movie would have been the same whether he was there or not.

It really boils down to whether or not you think the Nazis would have found the headpiece on their own. The bar fight in Nepal results Indy and Marion keeping the headpiece, and Toht having his hand burned which leads the Nazis to dig in the wrong place. If Indy doesn't show up in Nepal, and Toht gets the headpiece from Marion, the Nazis find the Ark, open it, and everyone dies. It just happens sooner. So, in that sense, Indy being there had no impact on the ultimate outcome of the story. But his actions DO obviously drive the plot, so saying he's "passive" isn't really accurate. And again, that's if we believe Toht gets the headpiece from Marion on his own. If he doesn't, the theory falls apart because, in that case, Indy being there clearly makes a difference.

But even people who subscribe to theory acknowledge that the one thing Indy definitely affects is the Ark ending up in the warehouse. That wouldn't have happened if he wasn't on the island when the Nazis open the Ark.
 
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The ending of 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' is beyond Jones's control though. He doesn't have the agency to affect a different outcome, once the government bodies take control. So calling him a "passive" character because he can't control what happens to such a powerful item like the Ark of the Covenant is a bit silly. In any case, through Indy actions the Ark ends up in "safer" hands and under lock and key, rather than in the hands of the Germans, as you state. So, his actions actually DO affect the outcome in a manner of speaking, which makes this "theory" null and void as far as I'm concerned.

All of this pseudo screenwriting 101 jargon becomes a real problem, because inherent in such statements is the idea that characters are "bad" if they aren't at the centre of events throughout the story. It also suggests that a character's actions should always have a positive outcome and such an idea is absurd to me. It would make for some deathly dull and wholly unrealistic characters, even within the realm of sci-fi, horror and fantasy.

In most fiction (and real life) people are brought along by the events they take part in. Nobody has control over everything or every outcome. So, to damn a fictional character for not being all powerful and steering a story to a cosy outcome just doesn't ring true to me.
 
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The ending of 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' is beyond Jones's control though. He doesn't have the agency to affect a different outcome, once the government bodies take control. So calling him a "passive" character because he can't control what happens to such a powerful item like the Ark of the Covenant is a bit silly. In any case, through Indy actions the Ark ends up in "safer" hands and under lock and key, rather than in the hands of the Germans, as you state. So, his actions actually DO affect the outcome in a manner of speaking, which makes this "theory" null and void as far as I'm concerned.
I wasn't condoning or condemning the theory, I was just clarifying the gist of it as I understand it. But whether you subscribe to it or not, I don't think Indy being "passive" is really what the theory is all about. I don't interpret it as "Indy doesn't do anything" but rather "Nothing Indy does really changes the outcome." The outcome being, the Nazis find the Ark, open it, and die. THAT happens either way. I think that's the nature of this theory.

But again, even that falls apart when you take into consideration the Ark ending up in the warehouse and Indy's role in that.

And as I said, the whole theory pretty much hinges on the "what if" of Toht finding the headpiece on his own. If you believe he could have, the theory seems at least somewhat sound. If you don't think he could have, the theory is basically worthless.
 
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They're decisions he has to make though. He can either tell his Uncle about R2 (and as an aside it's even down to Luke that they have R2 at all) running off and get in trouble or go after him and bring him back. He makes a choice as an active protagonist (telling is about his character) and the consequence is that the heroes journey begins (Call To Adventure, Refusal Of The Call, Meeting The Mentor etc).
We can agree to disagree here. I don't see Luke's decision to retrieve Artoo anything other than just wanting to get his property back that his Uncle paid for - to help them run the farm. To make an analogy, it would be like having your dog running away & your going out to look for it - though in this case the stakes were much higher re: the loss of R2. Yes, Luke could have waited to tell his uncle & dealt with the consequences, but I'm sure he figured that Owen would demand that Luke go out & look for the droid anyway, so he decided to save himself the trouble & go to look for it on his own. He also obviously felt responsible for Artoo's leaving because he took off the restraining bolt.

I definitely don't see this as the action(s) of an "active protagonist", just someone that's trying to cover his *****. But, that's me.
 
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But, it's not only a problem with Jyn. Chirrut takes out a squad with a stick.
Yeah, I didn't care for that much either. Pretty much blind Luck if you ask me. If he "actually" had the Force, then I'd have no problem with him doing those things. But there' only so much Skill and other senses can do for you.
 
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Just to chime in on the Raiders thing real quick: my response to this has always been that the "outcome of the film" is being defined a bit too narrowly. Sure, Indy's actions don't affect the ultimate fate of the MacGuffin (Ark) or the Nazi's plot. But if you take Indy out of the equation at any point in the movie, you end up with a dead Marion. And that's a pretty important piece of what's going on in the film, IMO.


I wasn't condoning or condemning the theory, I was just clarifying the gist of it as I understand it. But whether you subscribe to it or not, I don't think Indy being "passive" is really what the theory is all about. I don't interpret it as "Indy doesn't do anything" but rather "Nothing Indy does really changes the outcome." The outcome being, the Nazis find the Ark, open it, and die. THAT happens either way. I think that's the nature of this theory.

But again, even that falls apart when you take into consideration the Ark ending up in the warehouse and Indy's role in that.

And as I said, the whole theory pretty much hinges on the "what if" of Toht finding the headpiece on his own. If you believe he could have, the theory seems at least somewhat sound. If you don't think he could have, the theory is basically worthless.
 
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Yeah, I didn't care for that much either. Pretty much blind Luck if you ask me. If he "actually" had the Force, then I'd have no problem with him doing those things. But there' only so much Skill and other senses can do for you.
Chirrut is absolutely force sensitive, just perhaps not that strong in it. From sensing Jyn's necklace to the darkness around Cassian on Eadu, and especially when it comes to his walk to the master switch at the end. His other senses are highly attuned, for sure - that's a fantasy part of the film that I'm happy to buy into - but I don't think there's any question that he's in tune with the force.
 
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Yeah, I didn't care for that much either. Pretty much blind Luck if you ask me. If he "actually" had the Force, then I'd have no problem with him doing those things. But there' only so much Skill and other senses can do for you.
Yeh, I don't that Asian bilnd swordsman nonsense either. Being blind is a handicap, not a superpower.

So I have to think of Chirrut as a sort of Force student. A guy who's been studying the ways of the Jedi, while not actually being a Jedi. So, he has some power over the Force, but isn't capable of doing the things that somebody like Yoda could.

In a way it's kind of hinted at in Base's line about there being no Jedi left on Jedha. Only dreamers like Chirrut.
 
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In a way it's kind of hinted at in Base's line about there being no Jedi left on Jedha. Only dreamers like Chirrut.
And, again, Chirrut's force sensitivity is literally shown on-screen in the film. Not sure how anyone with any knowledge of Star Wars could have watched Rogue One and missed it.
 
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^^^ Absolutely. Chirrut is another component of Jedi that we’ve never experienced before in any SW story, yet completely weaves into the existing lore of Jedi so seamlessly. It never feels forced, contrived or reductive (like Rey and her gaining USB-C superpowers). The Guardians of the Whill feels so organic to AGFFA— as Jedha does. These Guardians are another component of the Jedi Order, like the Jedi Temple Guards. Fascinating and magical, and still hugely grounded in their reality (unlike Superwoman Leia surviving a direct explosion and the cold void of space without even a hair out of place).

It's taking "strong female character" in its most basic, literal, sense. Unfortunately, it ends up looking ridiculous and, in a way, intellectually insulting to everybody, including women.
Catering to the masses have always been about dumbing down to the very lowest common denominator of signifiers.

In these days of added SJW/PC-sanctimony, which has proven to be a very profitable gimmick (and which sadly equates progressive-mindedness, when it’s really just permission for reverse-discrimination and lazy character-development.), where certain peoples and groups are simply entitled to “power” without earning it through effort and sacrifice (Hello Rey!). Our heroine Jyn taking down a squad of armed soldiers with a “stick", is what gets passed as an “empowered woman”. It’s a cartoon— rather jarring to that very human character that up until that moment, is skillfully portrayed and developed. It’s sort of the the same mentality as game cut-scene Vader murdering all those Rebel troopers… :sigh:… I don’t mind suffering these mouth-breather/“fun” moments when the rest of the film is so solid.

And it does diminish, insult and patronizes activism to a mere popularity contest or worse, a gimmick (Hello Kathy!). Sort of like relating First World problem “feminism” of “how dare you catcall me!” to girls fighting and literally dying for the right to an education in other parts of the world...

Yes, at the start at the third act which I already said is when things start picking up.

I'm not talking about her personality though - I'm talking about her impact on the narrative. She makes no decisions or takes any action that has any bearing on the plot.

We meet adult Jyn in prison and then she is rescued. She doesn't save herself. She is then taken to Yavin with no say in the matter. She is then presented with a none choice of either going to Jedha or back to prison - no real say in the matter. She is then captured again and only freed when they know who she is - no say in the matter. She is then taken to Eadu with... no say in the matter. She makes a decision here to go to her father....who then dies independently of anything she just did. She is then taken back to Yavin. None of that is her decision or doing. Only when they get to Yavin does she start to assert herself.

Compare to say Luke or even Rey (which I'm sure will get your heckles up) who actively participate in the narrative making decisions and taking direct courses of action which affect the plot - Luke chooses to look for R2 which leads him to Ben. He chooses to go with Ben which leads him to Leia. He chooses to rescue Leia which leads him to the Rebellion. Likewise, Rey chooses to rescue BB-8 which leads her to Finn. She chooses to help Finn which leads her to Han and ultimately the Resistance, Luke and beyond. Yes, there are certain things that happen *to* them but they are not simply passengers in the narrative like Jyn is for large portions.

It's fine though; you can have a passive protagonist as long as they're affecting change in others and influencing others in their decisions which she kinda does with Cassian and Saw etc.
Fair points. Just seems you’re unwilling to accept her very human growth in this story, since you’ve admitted to not being fond of characterizations that blur the typical binary archetype. This is a matter of personal preference, and not a weak narrative structure. It’s a similar situation to my lack of tolerance for Marvel movies. I’m sure it’s a solid franchise so I wouldn’t dismiss them as generally awful, but I’m just not interested in the concept overall: “super beings” and all those silly costumes are all just a marathon of eye-rolling excursion for me to suffer (I enjoyed Deadpool though). Superheroes are just not my preference.

I’m impressed that a character so intimate/relatable (even passive and anti, initially), and still very much faithful to the classic archetype in her development, is given a chance in a SW story. Kathy must have been preoccupied during the production of RO to let this slip… RO is very character-driven for a SW-story. Hopefully these new TV-series will develop this further rather than the usual, cartoony episodic-tone that become typical— and tired, of nuSW.

More than ever now, a character from a mainstream film who is shown to be apathetic towards either end of the political spectrum— in a manner that isn’t satire/caricatural, coming into her own and as the tory unfolds in the course of a single film. Jyn is very sympathetic, very human after all. As is RO's story.
 
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And, again, Chirrut's force sensitivity is literally shown on-screen in the film. Not sure how anyone with any knowledge of Star Wars could have watched Rogue One and missed it.
When? Because from what i recall, he said that he was not a Jedi nor had Force powers/abilities. Only that he's a follower of their beliefs. And it shows when he's chanting, an actual Force user wouldn't need to chant/pray for the Force to be with them. It already is. The only thing he has is heightened senses due to being blind.
It was never mentioned, alluded to, or stated that he had any Force abilities. I think you might be miss-interpreting his actions.
 
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Chirrut's introduction in the film comes with sensing Jyn's kyber crystal necklace across a crowded street. He senses Bodhi in the next cell in Saw's dungeon. He senses the darkness around Cassian, and makes his way to the control switch in a manner that's shown by the edit and score to be inexplicable and special - as well as a culmination of the character's beliefs. Perhaps we're at cross purposes with what we mean by force sensitivity, but his attunement with the force is 100% right there on the screen.
 
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