Rian Johnson's trillogy is still being made

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The rumor for years has been this got quietly dumped into the trash, albeit concepts tend to find their way to future projects.


My philosophy as how they make movies now a days.
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Yeah I remember the news hitting he'd get his own trilogy, I want to say, almost simultaneously in conjunction with the release of The Last Jedi. You know, back when the media would have you believe it was the greatest thing to ever happen to Star Wars...according to critics, that is. But that was before really the fandom spoke out in almost near universal hatred of it. To this day it's still ranked the lowest audience score SW and by a significant margin. Then the concept of his supposed trilogy just...poof...up and basically disappeared.
 
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I can't see that happening, but it also wouldn't surprise me if it does.

Mmmmm...I wouldn't be paying too much attention to that "leak". It just sounds far too awful to be true.

In addition, I can't actually see ANY of the sequel cast returning to this crapfest any time soon, to be honest.
So you haven't seen the last two Movies, then? Because awful pretty much is their wheelhouse, i just can't decide if it's right above lackluster or below it.
 
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Yeah basically, if Rian's attached to any future SW project...you can count on me not supporting it. Great for those who'd want it, but I sure don't. I mean Last Jedi left such a bad taste in my mouth that I darn near stopped even having interest in SW. It nearly killed it for me.
 
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I can't see that happening, but it also wouldn't surprise me if it does.


So you haven't seen the last two Movies, then? Because awful pretty much is their wheelhouse, i just can't decide if it's right above lackluster or below it.
LOL.

Well, there's awful and then there's awful.
 
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I really hope they don't let him make another SW movie. "SW movies" have near-infinite re-watch value -- I must have seen the OT movies about 500 times each over the last 40 years, and they NEVER get old -- I always notice something new. by contrast, I saw TLJ twice, (sort of). ie: I saw it once in the theater and once around christmastime when they were playing it on cable TV, it was just sort of 'on' in the next room while I was busy doing other things, I caught a few scenes here-and-there between commercial breaks -- so I never really bothered to actually 'watch' it again (so that second viewing doesn't really count).

at the time, I compared the "re-watch" factor to that of an Agatha Christie mystery, re; once you've seen it, you've pretty much seen it -- there's no need to ever watch it again, because you already know 'who dunnit'; the unexpected 'gotcha' moments are no longer unexpected; the director's clever little tricks no longer seem clever; it's basically just a "one-and-done" viewing experience (like Looper), once you've seen it, then there's no need to ever watch it a second time. which is sort of appropriate I guess, given his 'knives out' thing -- dude should make one-watch murder-mysteries for a living (in the Agatha Christie style). my guess, he'd probably be good at that kind of thing(?) -- though I would never know because I would never actually watch his stuff anyway (like I never bothered to watch knives out) LOL.

same thing happened with TROS, FWIW: I saw it one time in the theater, and I never bothered to even watch the blu-ray that came with the boxed set.. technically I own hard copies of both these movies (by way of the boxed set) but I haven't even bothered to watch them... because... why bother? I've already seen them.

[IMO] it's one of the defining traits that make a "SW Movie" what it is: there's a certain "re-watch" factor, which allows you to watch it over and over, and never get tired of it -- you always notice something new -- that was part of GL's signature style. in the same way that video games are judged on "re-playability" -- if you have no desire to ever play through it a second time, then it's not really a credit to the genre -- the best video games can be played over and over again, and you never get tired of playing them. in fact you can actually get MORE out of it the second time. and the third time. and etc, etc.

Rian should be making one-watch, murder-mystery, TV episodes. the kind of thing where you watch it just one time, and then you move onto the next one. where the "re-watch" factor of the entire franchise comes from binge-watching an endless stream of multiple episodes in a row -- not from watching the same episode over-and-over again, gaining more-and-more insight with every viewing, like a SW movie. his "Style" is not really compatible with SW -- his "gotcha" moments are more compatible with Agatha Christie than George Lucas. (perhaps he should have continued HER life work, instead of GL's?) :p LOL

I hope he spends the rest of his career making 'knives out' sequels (that I will never see). I just really hope they never let him make another SW movie. it's just not his thing.
 
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ah... but is it worth watching more than once? over-and-over? (like a SW movie?) where you would actually get -more- out of it, each time you watch?

or is it more like, the rest of 'mystery' genre where... once you already know who dunnit then the "mystery" aspect of the genre is just completely gone at that point, and there's really no point to watch again-and-again on repeat viewings? where... it would probably be more enjoyable to just watch -another- "mystery" if that's what floats your boat?

like I said, SW movies have near-infinite re-watchability. it's a defining characteristic of a SW movie... and I would imagine 'knives out' doesn't share that quality(?) in fact, I would imagine it's a lot like "looper" where the "gotcha" moments only work the one time. and after that, then the unexpected IS expected (because you already know it's going to happen) so it just doesn't work the same way anymore on repeat viewings. like the saber toss. (or the sea cow). maybe (just maybe) on first viewing, the audience might find these 'gotcha' moments to be unexpected/funny or cute or whatever... but after you've seen it already, (and you've had a minute to process it), then the "gotcha" moments just don't work.
 
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Cobalt it's odd, I was writing basically the same thing you did. It's like I've said before, I'm not saying Rian is inherently lacking talent or is naturally a poor director, I'm just saying he's not for Star Wars. Well, in my opinion and that's been factually proven if you ask me. What I'm saying is, you don't go to...say...David Lynch or Terry Gilliam for a romantic comedy. You don't go to Micheal Bay for your biopic. You don't go to Tim Burton to direct The Rock for your macho blockbuster action picture. To be honest, Steven Spielberg is one of the few I can really think of that can nearly do it all. Rian has just proven to me that he can't succeed in just any genres, particularly an already established and constructed property. Only some genres are within his wheelhouse. Giant space opera action adventure blockbusters are not one of them. Rian needs to stick to his own individual and unique projects, not ones that have a massively premade legacy of already founded canonical history that needs adhered to for it to make any logical sense. Star Wars is not the franchise where you can just hire anyone and allow them to do anything they want. When you have 8 chronologically films before The Last Jedi, in order to be respectful but also have a sensible narrative...you have to conform on levels. This isn't an arthouse picture. If you want to just do whatever you want when in this sort of gig...expect criticism. It doesn't allow for that reach. Now perhaps J.J. conformed too much, but I'm also of the opinion that Rian didn't enough. It's a difficult dichotomy, trying to balance the teeter totter between "Too similar to the prior that people call it uninspired" and "Not similar enough that it isn't even Star Wars and breaks the ground-rules of the universe." Outside of probably only Rogue One, Disney never hit that sweet in-between spot.
 
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Well I've never said he was a horrible Director, heck I've only seen one of his movies prior to Last Jedi and I thought that it was okay. That Movie being Looper. I have said that he isn't the "best" Star Wars Director, or one that seemed to understood cohesion in a trilogy.

I still maintain that if it was a separate film like Solo or R1, that he might have made a decent movie about some new characters with a different take on things. Unfortunately with the way he handled things in TLJ it has sullied my view of him on other projects for now. Basically if you insult my family we will likely not get along, and in my view he's done just that.
 
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It's funny that people think Lucasfilm is going to allow Johnson, the man who single-handedly destroyed Star Wars, to have his own trilogy.
Yeah I agree. It's like I said...it just doesn't seem like it'll ever happen. I said that even when the murmur first started. It really doesn't. I've even wondered if it was really just a BS hype-train from the get go to intentionally get people riled up whilst also promoting TLJ. Because as said, the murmur really started around the release of TLJ to begin with. That was years ago now and for the most part this trilogy has just up and vanished. For as poorly handled as SW has been under Disney, I'm of the opinion that...now...even they wouldn't go through with a Johnson controlled trilogy.
 
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ah... but is it worth watching more than once? over-and-over? (like a SW movie?) where you would actually get -more- out of it, each time you watch?

or is it more like, the rest of 'mystery' genre where... once you already know who dunnit then the "mystery" aspect of the genre is just completely gone at that point, and there's really no point to watch again-and-again on repeat viewings? where... it would probably be more enjoyable to just watch -another- "mystery" if that's what floats your boat?

like I said, SW movies have near-infinite re-watchability. it's a defining characteristic of a SW movie... and I would imagine 'knives out' doesn't share that quality(?) in fact, I would imagine it's a lot like "looper" where the "gotcha" moments only work the one time. and after that, then the unexpected IS expected (because you already know it's going to happen) so it just doesn't work the same way anymore on repeat viewings. like the saber toss. (or the sea cow). maybe (just maybe) on first viewing, the audience might find these 'gotcha' moments to be unexpected/funny or cute or whatever... but after you've seen it already, (and you've had a minute to process it), then the "gotcha" moments just don't work.
I have watched pretty much all Agatha Christie shows over and over again, never tired of them. I also have watched Clue numerous times. A good mystery is timeless. Knives Out is such a movie
 
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Yeah basically, if Rian's attached to any future SW project...you can count on me not supporting it. Great for those who'd want it, but I sure don't. I mean Last Jedi left such a bad taste in my mouth that I darn near stopped even having interest in SW. It nearly killed it for me.
Did it put you off seeing Episode IX?

If so, you should email Rian Johnson and thank him for that at least.

I would really like to know what people who complain about Last Jedi think could have been done better because Abrams and Kasdan had already made a dog's dinner out of the whole trilogy with TFA. Poe and Finn are go nowhere background characters. Sure the Cato Bight thing was a bizarre and unnrecessary detour but it didn't matter. Poe, Finn and the Resistance are just pointless so no other story was going to be any better

Hamill's performance was superb, the little we got of teacher/student with him & Ridley showed they should have been together from the first movie and the throne room fight was great.

I would be very for Johnson to get another shot and not be hindered by Abram's poor imagination.
 
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The Blame for the quality of the Sequel Trilogy is shared by many. Disney wanted to play it safe, JJ wanted it to be LOST but set in space. so they settled on a mystery box reboot. Rian pretty much ignored everything and must have thought he was writing a 1980's Battlestar Galactica TV movie. Kennedy wanted to make an all new socially safe Disney ruled universe with hints of Star Wars but like a child, hers needed to be proven more powerful and betterer. They wanted to run it into the ground just like the Muppets.

They should just give it back to Lucas
 
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Did it put you off seeing Episode IX?

If so, you should email Rian Johnson and thank him for that at least.

I would really like to know what people who complain about Last Jedi think could have been done better because Abrams and Kasdan had already made a dog's dinner out of the whole trilogy with TFA. Poe and Finn are go nowhere background characters. Sure the Cato Bight thing was a bizarre and unnrecessary detour but it didn't matter. Poe, Finn and the Resistance are just pointless so no other story was going to be any better

Hamill's performance was superb, the little we got of teacher/student with him & Ridley showed they should have been together from the first movie and the throne room fight was great.

I would be very much for Johnson to get another shot and not be hindered by Abram's poor imagination.
 
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The Blame for the quality of the Sequel Trilogy is shared by many. Disney wanted to play it safe, JJ wanted it to be LOST but set in space. so they settled on a mystery box reboot. Rian pretty much ignored everything and must have thought he was writing a 1980's Battlestar Galactica TV movie. Kennedy wanted to make an all new socially safe Disney ruled universe with hints of Star Wars but like a child, hers needed to be proven more powerful and betterer. They wanted to run it into the ground just like the Muppets.

They should just give it back to Lucas
Lost was imaginative, thought provoking, risk taking fun.

I fail to see how you can compare this to what Abrams did in the ST. It was the exact opposite. Abrams wanted to remake the OT. Plain and simple.
 
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Did it put you off seeing Episode IX?

If so, you should email Rian Johnson and thank him for that at least.
I would really like to know what people who complain about Last Jedi think could have been done better because Abrams and Kasdan had already made a dog's dinner out of the whole trilogy with TFA. Poe and Finn are go nowhere background characters. Sure the Cato Bight thing was a bizarre and unnrecessary detour but it didn't matter. Poe, Finn and the Resistance are just pointless so no other story was going to be any better

Hamill's performance was superb, the little we got of teacher/student with him & Ridley showed they should have been together from the first movie and the throne room fight was great.

I would be very for Johnson to get another shot and not be hindered by Abram's poor imagination.
I don't know, The Force Awakens is derivative for certain...but I was forgiving of it for an opening to a trilogy. It's far from a masterpiece, but at least it behaves like a SW picture. I wasn't blown away, but I was entertained enough and at least intrigued enough to care to see where this was going. No I haven't given a ton of thought to where I did think it was going. I'm not the writer, I don't have to, it wasn't my job. All I can judge is what we did get...and it certain wasn't a take I enjoyed.

The Prequels were always deemed a mixed bag by many, so considering that, I couldn't really fault Disney or Abrams for wanting to play it safe for the first installment of the next return. I feel they basically felt it had to be in order to basically make a statement: SW is back. They had to make an attempt to win the crowd back...and what better way than to ape off the trilogy everyone loves...the Originals? I mean the whole build-up to the film largely revolved around this NOT being the prequels. You constantly heard "Look at the practical effects" in the interviews and behind the scenes.

But what I don't get is...if you blame Abrams for Johnson's faults in Last Jedi merely because of J.J.'s groundwork, that doesn't really add up to me. Why? Because Johnson barely used what WAS set-up! It feels so disconnected from TFA that it almost feels as if he didn't even bother to watch Episode 7. So I'm not really certain how you can blame Abrams for that when practically ignoring all the set-up established was a creative decision Rian made. Not to mention, if he didn't like the background given to him for the follow-up, why'd he even take the job? Dude didn't merely direct this, he also wrote it.

Sure Poe, Finn, Snoke, and perhaps even Luke do go nowhere...but they didn't have to. Rian is the one who chose to not utilize them or basically dismiss and discredit their characters, not Abrams. If anything...the reason why TROS suffered was due to Johnson, not TLJ suffering due to Abrams IMO. Finn's whole subplot results in nothing but a red herring pointless excursion, its results effect nothing to the main plot. You can literally cut it out entirely and nothing would change. I'm not certain how to make Finn more relevant, but I know there are better ways than that. The film is riddled with cheap shock jock tactics. Snoke is the big bad? SIKE! He's dead! Luke is the wizened Jedi master? SIKE! He's a bitter old man who doesn't really do much of anything but complain. His character was thrown out faster than a lightsaber over the shoulder. Poe's entire arch revolves around some harebrained waste of time mutiny plot because Admiral Gender Studies ain't gotta 'splain to no man! You know...for...reasons. Subversion for the mere sake of subversion just isn't satisfying. I'm not understanding how these moves are somehow Abrams folly, because this is not where Abrams left the characters.

Now I'm no mega fan of Abrams either, but I'm not going to blame the dude for the questionable decisions of another. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I admire Rian for attempting something different. The problem is, different doesn't automatically equal quality.
 
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Lost was imaginative, thought provoking, risk taking fun.

I fail to see how you can compare this to what Abrams did in the ST. It was the exact opposite. Abrams wanted to remake the OT. Plain and simple.
First, I am in no way poking fun at Lost, its actually one of the most important and overlooked sci fi shows of all time!
JJ and bad robot are notorious for stringing along a mystery with breadcrumb clues that you are obligated to look for because they are barely there, but you are left out in the cold. Leia and Han apparently know Rey, Maz apparently knows Rey, but we don't because Rey doesnt have a clue. She is the mystery and take Star Wars out of it for a second, it is just typical JJ stuff masked as new content in a remake of ANH. Problem was. Ryan completely shipped a second act and made a third act style movie. This completely made JJ retcon Rey. Its like if disney had brought in in M Knight Shamalamadingdong in to give it a twist ending. Its so expected that its neither original or fun....
 
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I don't know, The Force Awakens is derivative for certain...but I was forgiving of it for an opening to a trilogy. It's far from a masterpiece, but at least it behaves like a SW picture. I wasn't blown away, but I was entertained enough and at least intrigued enough to care to see where this was going. No I haven't given a ton of thought to where I did think it was going. I'm not the writer, I don't have to, it wasn't my job. All I can judge is what we did get...and it certain wasn't a take I enjoyed.

The Prequels were always deemed a mixed bag by many, so considering that, I couldn't really fault Disney or Abrams for wanting to play it safe for the first installment of the next return. I feel they basically felt it had to be in order to basically make a statement: SW is back. They had to make an attempt to win the crowd back...and what better way than to ape off the trilogy everyone loves...the Originals? I mean the whole build-up to the film largely revolved around this NOT being the prequels. You constantly heard "Look at the practical effects" in the interviews and behind the scenes.

But what I don't get is...if you blame Abrams for Johnson's faults in Last Jedi merely because of J.J.'s groundwork, that doesn't really add up to me. Why? Because Johnson barely used what WAS set-up! It feels so disconnected from TFA that it almost feels as if he didn't even bother to watch Episode 7. So I'm not really certain how you can blame Abrams for that when practically ignoring all the set-up established was a creative decision Rian made. Not to mention, if he didn't like the background given to him for the follow-up, why'd he even take the job? Dude didn't merely direct this, he also wrote it.

Sure Poe, Finn, Snoke, and perhaps even Luke do go nowhere...but they didn't have to. Rian is the one who chose to not utilize them or basically dismiss and discredit their characters, not Abrams. If anything...the reason why TROS suffered was due to Johnson, not TLJ suffering due to Abrams IMO. Finn's whole subplot results in nothing but a red herring pointless excursion, its results effect nothing to the main plot. You can literally cut it out entirely and nothing would change. I'm not certain how to make Finn more relevant, but I know there are better ways than that. The film is riddled with cheap shock jock tactics. Snoke is the big bad? SIKE! He's dead! Luke is the wizened Jedi master? SIKE! He's a bitter old man who doesn't really do much of anything but complain. His character was thrown out faster than a lightsaber over the shoulder. Poe's entire arch revolves around some harebrained waste of time mutiny plot because Admiral Gender Studies ain't gotta 'splain to no man! You know...for...reasons. Subversion for the mere sake of subversion just isn't satisfying. I'm not understanding how these moves are somehow Abrams folly, because this is not where Abrams left the characters.

Now I'm no mega fan of Abrams either, but I'm not going to blame the dude for the questionable decisions of another. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I admire Rian for attempting something different. The problem is, different doesn't automatically equal quality.
Of course TFA "behaved like a Star Wars movie". How could it not when it was, as you saying aping, the OT. in every way.

So the fandom is divided by the PT. Abrams doesn't like the Prequels? The response should be to use some imagination and try to do "better". You can still take the things universally like - the OT heroes over the hill now and gone their separate ways, and they saddle up to save their kids from the new threat - what else did people like? Stormtroopers, but they'd be long gone so let's get a bunch of Boba Fett instead. Then bring in an alien invasion. If you are going to rip off the EU at least rip of the good parts.

Where did I blame Abrams for all of Johnson's "faults"? I said Abrams and Kasdan gave him a bunch of go-nowhere characters and **** set up. I said nothing Johnson could have done would have made Poe, Finn or the Resistance any better. They are just terrible to begin with and served no purpose at all except to just be there. At no point did I blame Abrams for Johnson's other bad decisions.

Not just Last Jedi, you can cut Finn out of the whole trilogy and nothing would change..

There are plenty of military based movies where the man in charge doesn't feel the need to explain himself to a subordinate - the fact you take issue with it Holdo is a woman means it is a point not worth discussing any further.

As to the mutiny, at least Johnson tried to develop the character of Poe which is more than Abrams did. Poe was supposed to die early in the TFA and the only reason that's changed was because Abrams thought Oscar Issac was going to turn it down and he didn't even bother to rewrite anything to give him more to do. Just to secure an actor is a terrible reason to keep a character in a movie.

To reiterate - I said Abrams and Kasdan gave him useless characters and rubbish set up. I never said ether of them was responsible for Johnson's poor decisions in what he came u with himself.

Based on his other movies I have no doubt that Johnson could have done better if he had kicked of the trilogy or had someone more talented than Abrams doing the first movie. So therefore I would like to see what Johnson could do with his own Star Wars movies.
 
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First, I am in no way poking fun at Lost, its actually one of the most important and overlooked sci fi shows of all time!
JJ and bad robot are notorious for stringing along a mystery with breadcrumb clues that you are obligated to look for because they are barely there, but you are left out in the cold. Leia and Han apparently know Rey, Maz apparently knows Rey, but we don't because Rey doesnt have a clue. She is the mystery and take Star Wars out of it for a second, it is just typical JJ stuff masked as new content in a remake of ANH. Problem was. Ryan completely shipped a second act and made a third act style movie. This completely made JJ retcon Rey. Its like if disney had brought in in M Knight Shamalamadingdong in to give it a twist ending. Its so expected that its neither original or fun....
I did not thinking you were knocking Lost. Is it "overlooked"? Doesn't that mean ignored?

Abrams is often credited as sole creator but Alias and Felicity are the only shows he created himself. Lost, Fringe, Believe, etc. were team efforts

"Leia and Han apparently know Rey, Maz apparently knows Rey, but we don't because Rey doesnt have a clue."
" This completely made JJ retcon Rey."

What? There is no suggestion whatsoever at any point that Leia, Han, Luke, Maz, Chewie, etc. etc. know who Rey is. There is no look of recognition from Han. Mam even asks his "who is the girl?"

And nothing thatJohnson did caused Abrams to retcon Rey. Abrams made a point of having Maz tell Rey (very clearly yet half the audience missed it) that where Rey came from and who her family was meant nothing at all because what was important was where she was going and who she could become. Johnson simply reiterated that the parents were nobodies to give it closure - back up what Abrams had said. It was Abrams desire to appease some fans that caused him to retcon Rey and contradict his own and Johnsons writing.
 
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Holy moley read the room....Han and Leia knew. And Leia knew all along she was a palpatine.
 
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I came back to this forum a few days ago to just ask an action figure question.

I never intended to get involved in chats about theTV shows and movies because although I enjoy the talk, I spend too long typing it out and it takes up a crazy amount of time.

So I'm going to have to cut myself here and delete my password to make it more difficult to sign in,

Laters everyone.;)

EDIT : I'm delaying my departures due to an outbreak of madness :)
 
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Holy moley read the room....Han and Leia knew. And Leia knew all along she was a palpatine.
What are you waffling about?

There was zero look of recognition from anyone for Rey and she didn't become a Palaptine until Abrams was writing IX. Palpatine is one a hologram in Trevorrow's screenplay - the original guy who was hired to wrap it up becauseAbrams didn't want to.

Show the screen grab where Ford looks at Ridley like he is supposed to know her? And how is he supposed to what is in her DNA? He can't use the Force.
 
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What are you waffling about?

There was zero look of recognition from anyone for Rey and she didn't become a Palaptine until Abrams was writing IX. Palpatine is one a hologram in Trevorrow's screenplay - the original guy who was hired to wrap it up becauseAbrams didn't want to.

Show the screen grab where Ford looks at Ridley like he is supposed to know her? And how is he supposed to what is in her DNA? He can't use the Force.
Never mind. Han is just so super nice and giving to strangers.... Leia hives out hugs on the hug line too.
 
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Never mind. Han is just so super nice and giving to strangers.... Leia hives out hugs on the hug line too.
Giving what? The blaster?

That is all he gives to Rey. How in the heaven's would Han recognise Rey as a Palpatine? And why would he be nice if he did?

He doesn't give her the Falcon because he is dead. She just seems to take it or it is Chewie's decision that she be the pilot.

Leia and Rey hug because Han meant something to both of them.

The decision to resurrect Palpatine was only made after Abrams replaced Trevorrow (who used Palpatine only as a pre-recorded message in his screenplay)
 
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Giving what? The blaster?

That is all he gives to Rey. How in the heaven's would Han recognise Rey as a Palpatine? And why would he be nice if he did?

He doesn't give her the Falcon because he is dead. She just seems to take it or it is Chewie's decision that she be the pilot.

Leia and Rey hug because Han meant something to both of them.

The decision to resurrect Palpatine was only made after Abrams replaced Trevorrow (who used Palpatine only as a pre-recorded message in his screenplay)
He doesn't take her in? He doesn't offer her a token job? Rey has no idea she is a force weilder much less a palpatine. Don't you think the network of resistance spies and intelligence would know. All about her? And if her parents were on the run from the empire don't you think seeking an alliance with them for protection wouldn't have been their first logical move? And Rey does not own the Falcon...Chewie does. Go back and learn who Han is first, then read between the lines. They made a mess of the whole thing but the things I am stating hold up to logic and reason.
 
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He doesn't take her in? He doesn't offer her a token job? Rey has no idea she is a force weilder much less a palpatine. Don't you think the network of resistance spies and intelligence would know. All about her? And if her parents were on the run from the empire don't you think seeking an alliance with them for protection wouldn't have been their first logical move? And Rey does not own the Falcon...Chewie does. Go back and learn who Han is first, then read between the lines. They made a mess of the whole thing but the things I am stating hold up to logic and reason.
There is no logic or reason in what you are saying.

Rey was not a Palpatine during the writing and production of Episode VII nor during Trevorrow's stint on Episode IX.

I never said Han didn't take her in and it isn't a "token job". She is on her own and appreciates the Falcon. He is being quite clear and honest.

Did you miss the part of Episode IX were Palptine being alive has come as a shock? If their spy network didn't know about the Starkiller until it was used or it's location until Finn told them and if they didn't know Palpatine was alive then how in the world would they have know that a clone Palpaine and his child were out there somewhere.

And if Chewie owns the Falcon then why is Poe the pilot in IX and the one making decisions?

I know who Han is and thee are no lines to read between.

Sorry but this is the same thinking that had people being obsessed with making Rey Luke's daughter in their heads despite the fact the first two movies made it clear she was related to no previously know character.

No one in TFA reacts to Rey with any kind of recognition.

I can actually accept that Leia could recogise the Palpatine in Rey but it goes on unspoken fo the vey reason Luke says - that Leia sees potential and doesn't want to hinder it with the burden of the truth.

Whereis no way Luke sensed t when he met Rey because he had closed himself off from the Force. Plus he reacts in horror and compares her to Ben Solo, not Palpatine, when she was willing to go straight to the Dark Side in their first lesson

There is simply no way that Han recognised that Rey has the Force nor could he have sensed who she had descended from
 
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Of course TFA "behaved like a Star Wars movie". How could it not when it was, as you saying aping, the OT. in every way.

So the fandom is divided by the PT. Abrams doesn't like the Prequels? The response should be to use some imagination and try to do "better". You can still take the things universally like - the OT heroes over the hill now and gone their separate ways, and they saddle up to save their kids from the new threat - what else did people like? Stormtroopers, but they'd be long gone so let's get a bunch of Boba Fett instead. Then bring in an alien invasion. If you are going to rip off the EU at least rip of the good parts.

Where did I blame Abrams for all of Johnson's "faults"? I said Abrams and Kasdan gave him a bunch of go-nowhere characters and **** set up. I said nothing Johnson could have done would have made Poe, Finn or the Resistance any better. They are just terrible to begin with and served no purpose at all except to just be there. At no point did I blame Abrams for Johnson's other bad decisions.

Not just Last Jedi, you can cut Finn out of the whole trilogy and nothing would change..

There are plenty of military based movies where the man in charge doesn't feel the need to explain himself to a subordinate - the fact you take issue with it Holdo is a woman means it is a point not worth discussing any further.

As to the mutiny, at least Johnson tried to develop the character of Poe which is more than Abrams did. Poe was supposed to die early in the TFA and the only reason that's changed was because Abrams thought Oscar Issac was going to turn it down and he didn't even bother to rewrite anything to give him more to do. Just to secure an actor is a terrible reason to keep a character in a movie.

To reiterate - I said Abrams and Kasdan gave him useless characters and rubbish set up. I never said ether of them was responsible for Johnson's poor decisions in what he came u with himself.

Based on his other movies I have no doubt that Johnson could have done better if he had kicked of the trilogy or had someone more talented than Abrams doing the first movie. So therefore I would like to see what Johnson could do with his own Star Wars movies.
Boy someone sure likes their caffeine. :LOL:

I could imagine plenty of places for these characters to go, Finn breaking his brainwashing is a great lead-in to him becoming a sort of Stormtrooper redemption revolution arch. This even was the plan, from what I understand, him becoming a sort of messiah that helps recondition and recruit Stormtroopers back to who they were and into fighting against the First Order. That's a heck of a lot better than a red herring Casino plot. Because you didn't like how TFA set things up doesn't mean Johnson was left with nothing. What he did was simply lazy because, frankly, he's really just not enough of a talent to have been granted both directorial and writing privileges. It should never have happened. Aping an Agatha Christy style novel is very different than writing a science-fiction fantasy adventure that's ALSO the biggest film franchise of all-time. He was allowed more power and control than he ever truly deserved.

I have no problem with Holdo being a woman, but nice shot. Please, I'm one of the biggest Jurassic Park fans out there...Laura Dern is a Goddess to me. That's ultimately irrelevant. I have tons of problems with her character HERE. I'm sure there are plenty of military films in which a commander does not divulge the full plans, that is also irrelevant. This isn't Full Metal Jacket or Platoon, this is Star Wars and I'm talking about the context to which it's done in THIS movie. It's completely illogical and actually, for apparently trying to make her look strong...it actually makes her look idiotic and like possibly even a traitor. There is no logical justification for NOT telling him the plan...particularly when people are dying left and right for seemingly no real reason and a mutiny is about to break out. That's leadership? No, that's questionable writing.

End of the day, Johnson comes off as if he just wanted to do his own science-fiction/fantasy project more akin to something like The Fifth Element or Jupiter Ascending. He didn't want to adhere. Well then why are you saddling down with what's arguably the most corporate run franchise in the history of cinema? That's like Gordon Ramsay attempting to make gourmet burgers...and going to and using McDonald's supplies to do it. That's not how these things work. You can't expect to do a pseudo-indie project and have it be universally accepted when your franchise is the most industrial run conveyor belt imaginable. Now by no means should Star Wars be forced to be a manufactured formula, but as Red Letter Media has said...in a franchise like this, you're better off not straying too far out of the box. That's how this works. This isn't fine art. Rian didn't test the line of demarcation or stumble out of bounds, he burst through it like a space ship going to hyperspace.
 
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Boy someone sure likes their caffeine. :LOL:

I could imagine plenty of places for these characters to go, Finn breaking his brainwashing is a great lead-in to him becoming a sort of Stormtrooper redemption revolution arch. This even was the plan, from what I understand, him becoming a sort of messiah that helps recondition and recruit Stormtroopers back to who they were and into fighting against the First Order. That's a heck of a lot better than a red herring Casino plot. Because you didn't like how TFA set things up doesn't mean Johnson was left with nothing. What he did was simply lazy because, frankly, he's really just not enough of a talent to have been granted both directorial and writing privileges. It should never have happened. Aping an Agatha Christy style novel is very different than writing a science-fiction fantasy adventure that's ALSO the biggest film franchise of all-time. He was allowed more power and control than he ever truly deserved.

I have no problem with Holdo being a woman, but nice shot. That's ultimately irrelevant. I have tons of problems with her character. I'm sure there are plenty of military films in which a commander does not divulge the full plans, that is also irrelevant. This isn't Full Metal Jacket or Platoon, this is Star Wars and I'm talking about the context to which it's done in THIS movie. It's completely illogical and actually, for apparently trying to make her look strong...it actually makes her look idiotic and like possibly even a traitor. There is no logical justification for NOT telling him the plan...particularly when people are dying left and right for seemingly no real reason and a mutiny is about to break out. That's leadership? No, that's questionable writing.

End of the day, Johnson comes off as if he just wanted to do his own science-fiction/fantasy project more akin to something like The Fifth Element or Jupiter Ascending. He didn't want to adhere. Well then why are you saddling down with what's arguably the most corporate run franchise in the history of cinema? That's like Gordon Ramsay attempting to make gourmet burgers...and going to and using McDonald's supplies to do it. That's not how these things work. You can't expect to do a pseudo-indie project and have it be universally accepted when your franchise is the most industrial run conveyor belt imaginable. Now by no means should Star Wars be forced to be a manufactured formula, but as Red Letter Media has said...in a franchise like this, you're better off not straying too far out of the box. That's how this works. This isn't fine art. Rian didn't test the line of demarcation or stumble out of bounds, he burst through it like a space ship going to hyperspace.
I don't understand what you mean about liking caffeine. Which I actually don't but not the point.

Did you really imagine that as a place to bring Finn before or during TLJ or after you read it in the leak of Trevorrow's story ;)

In Abrams TFA - where it is stated that stormtroopers are conditioned since children there is zero exploration of why Finn's programming broke down and zero acknowledgement that he has done something apparently extraordinary. And if he is conditioned since birth to just be a stormtrooper then how come he has a fully developed personality? Shouldn't it be like being born?

And he is the last person to be stormtrooper messiah. He has zero sympathy for his fellow "captives" and actually takes pleasure in killing them even. He only forms a bond with Hannah and her people because they are free already. He would have happily murdered them if they were still programmed.

Funny how it is okay for Abrams to ape someone else's work.

You are the one who brought Holdo's gender into the discussion not me. You made it an issue and you clearly do have a problem with it. What sort of a commander makes themselves answerable to a subordinate? And an insubordinate jackass at that? He had just got a LOT of their fighters killed just so he could claim some glory. Not a crime that she didn't see a mutiny coming. The only thing wrong with Holdo was the stupid costume.

Well that last paragraph says it all and I wish I had read that first. A writer and director wanting to do "their own thing" and going "outside the box" is a good thing. If you just what the same old thing from Star Wars you are asking for it to die. Lucas went radically different with the PT and the complainers be damed - made a fortune from it and the franchise was raking in more money and newcomers then ever. The PT brought it back to life and TCW (also Prequels) kept it gong afterwards. Even more differentis what Abrams should have done - he did it with Star Trek (over did it in fact) but didn't have the ballsack to do it with franchise that he claimed to love? Johnson made some poor choices with the story but at least he was trying to be different.
 
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Seriously I have to sign out. This damn chatting is addictive.

I enjoy it but I should be sleeping.

Talk to you all in the days before the release of the first movie in this trilogy :)
 
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JJ only wrote the pilot for LOST, he didn't write the over-arching story. he only wrote the "Setup" for an ongoing story. and then he handed it off to other writers, (aka:"team players"), who picked up on his trail of breadcrumbs, and turned this "Setup" into something cohesive.

same with the ST -- and, to be honest, that was the biggest problem with the ST -- JJ didn't actually write an overarching story. he approached it exactly like he did LOST. he only wrote the "Setup". with the intent being, to hand it off to other writers (aka:"team players"), who would pick up his trail of breadcrumbs and turn this "Setup" into something cohesive.

but Rian came along and said "...Nah".

Rian actually said, out loud, (after the fact), that his goal with episode 8 was to 'make it his own'. he approached it like one of his indie features. he ignored the "Setup" completely, and turned everything upside down, just for the sake of 'ownership'. he wasn't interested in the trail of breadcrumbs. he wasn't interested in being a "team player". he was only interested in using the SW brand to make a name for himself.

(mission accomplished -- his name is "Mud").

so who do we blame? do we blame JJ, for NOT writing a 3-movie arc, to begin with..? do we blame Rian, for ignoring JJ's setup and making a "Rian Johnson" movie instead..?

or do we blame Kathleen Kennedy for her lack of leadership in allowing ANY of this to happen, at all?
 
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I don't understand what you mean about liking caffeine. Which I actually don't but not the point.

Did you really imagine that as a place to bring Finn before or during TLJ or after you read it in the leak of Trevorrow's story ;)
HA! I'll give you, well play on that one. Well played. I just mean, with the caffeine comment, you just seem sort of aggressive. Relax man, we're all just having a debate on a movie. That's all.

In Abrams TFA - where it is stated that stormtroopers are conditioned since children there is zero exploration of why Finn's programming broke down and zero acknowledgement that he has done something apparently extraordinary. And if he is conditioned since birth to just be a stormtrooper then how come he has a fully developed personality? Shouldn't it be like being born?

And he is the last person to be stormtrooper messiah. He has zero sympathy for his fellow "captives" and actually takes pleasure in killing them even. He only forms a bond with Hannah and her people because they are free already. He would have happily murdered them if they were still programmed.
Well yes, you're not wrong...but that arch would have started with Last Jedi, not necessarily TFA. You have to get HIS conditioning and fears out of the way first before he can attempt to motivate others, that comes in part one. They didn't go with that angle in Last Jedi, to be honest I'm not sure what they were aiming for with Finn in Last Jedi. But there was a set-up there and it was thrown to the wayside.

Funny how it is okay for Abrams to ape someone else's work.
But I'm not the one complaining about aping things, you are. Rian was clearly inspired by Agatha Christy for his film Knives Out, that's blatant. I never said I disliked the film. I actually rather enjoyed it. I'm just noting the hypocrisy that Rian did the same as Abrams, I liked both Knives Out and (mostly...not entirely) TFA. You're the one condemning Abrams for using so much of A New Hope, but praising Johnson as a genius for utilizing an Agatha Christy formula.

You are the one who brought Holdo's gender into the discussion not me. You made it an issue and you clearly do have a problem with it. What sort of a commander makes themselves answerable to a subordinate? And an insubordinate jackass at that? He had just got a LOT of their fighters killed just so he could claim some glory. Not a crime that she didn't see a mutiny coming. The only thing wrong with Holdo was the stupid costume.
Well I'll agree on it being a stupid costume design. Why is an Admiral in a ball gown? We'll never know, she just is. But please, don't tell me how I feel. All due respect, you're not me. What kind of commander makes themselves answerable to a subordinate? A compassionate logical one. To use your example, that also happens in dozens of military films. Usually when you work TOGETHER it works out a lot better than what happened with Holdo too. See then this is one major issue I'll never understand with the film: Poe "screwed up," so to speak. Did he? Did he really? The film goes out of its way to say he did, but did he? This is war, there will be casualties. If he didn't do what he did, there would have been far, far more. And then the film goes on to hypocritically send the opposite message: Holdo is a hero, Poe is a villain, for in ESSENCE doing the SAME THING. The DIFFERENCE is, with Poe it wasn't much of a choice. It was an attack, there will be a level of loss, and ultimately they DID still win. With Holdo, she made men expendable for NO reason, it could have been done differently. With Poe, it couldn't have been. HENCE WHY, yet again, the film contradicts itself and decides by the end Poe IS the right choice to lead. Rian can't seem to make his OWN mind up.

Well that last paragraph says it all and I wish I had read that first. A writer and director wanting to do "their own thing" and going "outside the box" is a good thing. If you just what the same old thing from Star Wars you are asking for it to die. Lucas went radically different with the PT and the complainers be damed - made a fortune from it and the franchise was raking in more money and newcomers then ever. The PT brought it back to life and TCW (also Prequels) kept it gong afterwards. Even more differentis what Abrams should have done - he did it with Star Trek (over did it in fact) but didn't have the ballsack to do it with franchise that he claimed to love? Johnson made some poor choices with the story but at least he was trying to be different.
I don't inherently disagree, you're not listening to what I'm saying. Yes original thoughts and ideas should be utilized, but this is not your sandbox. This is an established lore. You will always have to adhere to GENERAL GROUND RULES for YOUR contribution to make sense in a story that is not TRULY yours. Rian did not do that. He strayed too far.
 
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HA! I'll give you, well play on that one. Well played. I just mean, with the caffeine comment, you just seem sort of aggressive. Relax man, we're all just having a debate on a movie. That's all.



Well yes, you're not wrong...but that arch would have started with Last Jedi, not necessarily TFA. You have to get HIS conditioning and fears out of the way first before he can attempt to motivate others, that comes in part one. They didn't go with that angle in Last Jedi, to be honest I'm not sure what they were aiming for with Finn in Last Jedi. But there was a set-up there and it was thrown to the wayside.



But I'm not the one complaining about aping things, you are. Rian was clearly inspired by Agatha Christy for his film Knives Out, that's blatant. I never said I disliked the film. I actually rather enjoyed it. I'm just noting the hypocrisy that Rian did the same as Abrams, I liked both Knives Out and (mostly...not entirely) TFA. You're the one condemning Abrams for using so much of A New Hope, but praising Johnson as a genius for utilizing an Agatha Christy formula.

Well I'll agree on it being a stupid costume design. Why is an Admiral in a ball gown? We'll never know, she just is. But please, don't tell me how I feel. All due respect, you're not me. What kind of commander makes themselves answerable to a subordinate? A compassionate logical one. To use your example, that also happens in dozens of military films. Usually when you work TOGETHER it works out a lot better than what happened with Holdo too. See then this is one major issue I'll never understand with the film: Poe "screwed up," so to speak. Did he? Did he really? The film goes out of its way to say he did, but did he? This is war, there will be casualties. If he didn't do what he did, there would have been far, far more. And then the film goes on to hypocritically send the opposite message: Holdo is a hero, Poe is a villain, for in ESSENCE doing the SAME THING. The DIFFERENCE is, with Poe it wasn't much of a choice. It was an attack, there will be a level of loss, and ultimately they DID still win. With Holdo, she made men expendable for NO reason, it could have been done differently. With Poe, it couldn't have been. HENCE WHY, yet again, the film contradicts itself and decides by the end Poe IS the right choice to lead. Rian can't seem to make his OWN mind up.



I don't inherently disagree, you're not listening to what I'm saying. Yes original thoughts and ideas should be utilized, but this is not your sandbox. This is an established lore. You will always have to adhere to GENERAL GROUND RULES for YOUR contribution to make sense in a story that is not TRULY yours. Rian did not do that. He strayed too far.
I accidentally signed in thinking this was a forum on home entertainment and I should have jumped straight out but instead I read - see addictive.

I'm not "playing" with my question about Finn nor being smart Alec. Did you really think, prior to TLJ. of him leading a stormtrooper rebellion? Also, I would not suit the middle chapter as they'd have no army left for the final film.

Aggressive? Seriously? What aggression? You are going to have to paint this out to me.

That second paragraph - if you are going to ask those questions about Finn in TLJ then you need to ask them about Finn in TFA because that is the movie that should have dealt with his conditioning. They dealt with the fear but nothing in the writing or Boyega's performance gave any hint that he had sent the last 20 years as a drone brainwashed to serve. In fact I believe even the trio of stories Before the Awakening portal Finn as having that same personality.

I never called Johnson a genius or praised Knives Out. I have seen the movie at all. It is you who criticised Johnson for aping the writing of someone else while earlier you made excuses for Abrams doing it. I was actually pointing out your hypocrisy.

"Don't tell you how I feel" - I'm guessing this is about the gender thing. Well, you did make Holdo's gender an issue. It is right there in your post. I was simply pointing out that it was a topic that I didn't want to get into because it is an asinine one.

About Poe - Poe committed a lot of good people to a fight that was not necessary. The Imperials hadn't even launched their TIE fighters and the squadron could have jumped to light speed. Life to take out the dreadnought another day. Wh was it a a big deal anyway? It was clearly the only one the had because Abrams doesn't use them in IX.

Compassionate leadership? Where was Poe's when he sacrificed all those pilots and bomber crews? Poe was some jackass pilot that Leia herself had deemed not worthy just before he coma. And this is the military - there is a chain off command. Poe's mutiny was a tantrum because the new boss wouldn't let him have his way. Holdo's decisions and actions are one of the few things that part of the story that make sense. Poe's tantrum does not, Finn and Rose's mission does not, the Resistance not having a slicer, does not, etc.

What rules did Johnson break? Nothing in TLJ contradicted any movie that came before nor any of the mythology. And each movie actually is and should be the writer/directors but there are certain rules and conditions that they have to stick to. The only person who has violated the lore in the Disney era is Abrams.

You are going to have to point out what rules Johnson broke and where he disrespected the mythology. And no, the Wilhelm Scream does not count.
 
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Finn's whole subplot results in nothing but a red herring pointless excursion, its results effect nothing to the main plot. You can literally cut it out entirely and nothing would change.
I'm not a big fan of TLJ and certainly no great defender of it (Finn's character was such a wasted opportunity) but as dull as this sub plot was, if Finn never goes on his mission then he never meets DJ who never betrays them and the First Order never find out the Resistance have abandoned ship, they all make it to Crait, Snoke survives, Luke and Kylo don't have their showdown and Luke survives. It has quite an impact on the plot.
 
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I'm not a big fan of TLJ and certainly no great defender of it (Finn's character was such a wasted opportunity) but as dull as this sub plot was, if Finn never goes on his mission then he never meets DJ who never betrays them and the First Order never find out the Resistance have abandoned ship, they all make it to Crait, Snoke survives, Luke and Kylo don't have their showdown and Luke survives. It has quite an impact on the plot.
Finn is a wasted opportunity from his very first moment in the trilogy but you do make a good point.

To say cutting out the Canto Bight plot would have no impact is nonsense.
 
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The comments that TLJ or Johnson has "destroyed Star Wars" is hysterical poodoo.

The is still the other movies (and various other media) to enjoy and more to come.

The ST is lame duck and Abrams lack of imagination that has made the future history of Star Wars a mess. It still is not the end of the franchise. For now Lucasfilm seem to be sticking to the Empire/Rebels era in movies and TV. And they are going back in with books to the High Republic, which seems like a project with actual originality and not just a reboot.

I'm eager to see some post-RotJ stuff about setting up the New Republic and what is going so wrong - people I the fringes of the GFFA don't seem to have much faith in the new government and Cara in Mandolorian said she and her comrades were "putting down riots".

I have no desire to see the First Order or Resistance or the majority of characters from the ST again. A new movie or series in that time not featuring those - great - but I give anything Star Wars a chance. I can tolerate First Order presence if the rest of the project is good enough.

I would like to see Lucasfilm creating a post-ST era at at some stage. Rey, Chewie and the four droids travelling the GFFA looking for padawans is something I would welcome. She is a Skywalker now, th Palpatine thing is behind her and no need to mention it. The First Order and Resistance is gone and no point bringing them up. And there is no galactic government at all so even the Core Worlds would be dangerous. Only problem for me is that they'd bring back Finn and Poe. My goodness, those two are just so dull and pointless that it just irks me. :p
 
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