POTF2 first shots/pre production figures- still easy to find?

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I might try to pick up a POTF2 8D8 proto/pre production figure. Most likely looking for a first shot and would love to find one in non production colours! I don't really know how easy it is to obtain original first shots of the POTF2 line so wondered if anyone had any insight into the pre prod / proto realm of POTF2 collecting and if anyone could help me with my search?
 
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Guess thats a no! lol

Oh well if anyone has anything of interest please let me know
 
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I don't have any specific interest in first shots and protos, so my only input is as an observer of that collecting hobby.

I see alot of protos on Ebay for a number of the SW lines, except, of course, for Vintage. I've even seen protos for some of the side lines, like Unleashed and Galactic Heroes. I'd say this kind of stuff seems easy enough to get if you're patient. Also alot of research is involved. It's way too easy for someone to just cast pieces in wierd colors and pass them off as a proto. Especially, older figures like POTF2 that has less overall pieces and components.
 
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Oh for sure I would definitely aim for a piece with a solid history to it, I am just a bit tired of waiting for a Vintage first shot to fall out of one of the many collections they reside in so I figured it might be worth looking at POTF2 for some first shot goodness
I have seen a handful on the net most look pretty similar to the production figure but a few had some nice colours to them so fingers crossed one finds me!

Thanks for your reply
 
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Joe,

POTF2 prototypes are hard to gauge at times. Ones from the initial POTF2 line were easy to find around early 1997 - 2001 or so. The well has mostly gone dry from then on. Some Dealers or high-end collectors seem to have purchased a huge amount and "release" them from time to time.

I can only think of five (maybe more) times I have seen a POTF2 8D8 come up for sale. I am not sure if you post here ,but it might worth a peek now and then. Good luck my friend.
 
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Re: POTF2 first shots/pre production figures- stil

It's almost impossible to find a potf2 (or any modern era) proto that can be varified as having actually been used as part of the production process. A high school classmate of mine interned with Hasbro and apparently the guys there were pumping out "first shots" and other such figures in funky colors by the dozen to sell. I got several from him and he had lots, lots more.
 
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Re: POTF2 first shots/pre production figures- stil

Many thanks Jason for the information, I tried registering on the forum a week or so ago but never got the confirmation email so I am just waiting on that before I can post (have notified Wayne)

Sharp said:
It's almost impossible to find a potf2 (or any modern era) proto that can be varified as having actually been used as part of the production process. A high school classmate of mine interned with Hasbro and apparently the guys there were pumping out "first shots" and other such figures in funky colors by the dozen to sell. I got several from him and he had lots, lots more.
Well I must say just from looking on ebay that there seems to be an abundance of modern "prototypes" out there in all kinds of whacky colours so it did cross my mind as to where they were all coming from!
Very interesting Bobby eveni if it is a little bit off-putting but I will try to see what kind of history I can get on any piece that comes my way, I have spoken to a few people that either owned one or might know where one is so maybe something turns up with a solid background soon
 
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Re: POTF2 first shots/pre production figures- stil

You're welcome Joe. Hopefully, Wayne or other forum moderators get back to you soon.

I try hard to stay away from the funky colored prototypes from the modern line. They have always screamed fake or overrun to me. Unpainted or "shot" in similar color plastics are better for me to digest. A hot pink jawa does not seem right, if you know what I mean.
 
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Re: POTF2 first shots/pre production figures- stil

Jason_West said:
You're welcome Joe. Hopefully, Wayne or other forum moderators get back to you soon.

I try hard to stay away from the funky colored prototypes from the modern line. They have always screamed fake or overrun to me. Unpainted or "shot" in similar color plastics are better for me to digest. A hot pink jawa does not seem right, if you know what I mean.
I think this might be a much safer route. Figures cast in colors similar to the production version are more likely to be authentic. Unless you get some very serious provenance on a POTF2+ prototype, I'd doubt it's authenticity. Of course, that depends on what you consider a prototype. For me, a prototype is an item that was actually used as part of the production process. Others might pass as pre-production, but not technically prototypes. From the two tubs of "prototype" figures that I saw years ago, a vast majority of them were bright pink or other such odd colors. Either Kenner/Hasbro had loads of these plastics around or the college kids interning there were savvy enough to know that collectors are attracted to figures cast in bizarre colors. I'd know the latter to be true.
 
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Re: POTF2 first shots/pre production figures- stil

Just to chime in...some of the info in this thread is spot-on but some is a little off. A distinction has to be made between actual POTF2 stuff (1995-1999) and the other modern stuff (2000-present). Going off what you have seen on eBay the past few years is not an accurate gauge. Most of that isn't even POTF2.

Firstly, there is quite a bit of legitimate POTF2 pre-production stuff out there. First shots in non-production colors are only a part of the overall picture. Yes, there was some overrun in the 1998-1999 era, but this was not indicative of the entire POTF2 series. It is also worth noting that many POTF2 figures *were* actually molded in non-production colors not for giggles but because they were truly using whatever plastics happened to be around. Sculptors and people working for the company at the time will attest to this. A good deal were also molded in production or near-production colors.

This is to mention nothing of the multitude of sign-off's, carded samples, QA samples, painted first shots/samples, hardcopies (painted and unpainted), proof sheets, transparencies, slides and unused box flats/cards that were produced. POTF2 was a line known for running changes to the packaging as well as the figures themselves (think Luke Ceremonial with the unproduced head sculpt). These pieces can be linked back to Kenner and later Hasbro sources.

I think the glut of "prototypes" that flooded eBay back in the early to mid-2000's kind of skewed the overall picture of post-1995 preproduction material. You really need to ask yourself about the source. You have to use discretion because legit pre-prod has come from both US-based sources (namely the Cincy area) as well as eastern Asia. Most importantly, you need to be able to distinguish POTF2 from the rest of the modern lines - more unpainted production figures (not really first shots) have been cranked out of Asia since the early 2000's, but this wasn't the case for the POTF2 line.

Hope this shines a little extra light on the topic
 
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Great thread Joe, and great discussion! I love the different takes on this issue. I'm starting to become more interested in POTF2 protos myself recently, and just worked out a deal on my second one.

These comments in particular stand out for me, and I'd like to comment in reply to each one.

Jedi_Eeth_Koth said:
It's way too easy for someone to just cast pieces in wierd colors and pass them off as a proto. Especially, older figures like POTF2 that has less overall pieces and components.
I know exactly what you mean. I've stayed away from modern protos for the very same reason. So much of it just has no provenance to prove that it was actually used in the prototyping process. The multi-colors in themselves don't worry me. Its that so many of these so-called 'first shots' have dates and peg holes, where as in both vintage, and even POTF2 era, many first shots don't have dates, and some no peg holes either. If you look at what's on eBay now, there's clearly a shift in the nature of the supply, where so much of it has no features that would readily identify it as pre-production. For the most part, it could be some guy making 'test shots' after hours, smuggling them home, and selling on eBay as 'first shots'. When an item can't speak for itself, then provenance is eveything; and these modern 'protos' have no provenance really.


Sharp said:
It's almost impossible to find a potf2 (or any modern era) proto that can be varified as having actually been used as part of the production process. A high school classmate of mine interned with Hasbro and apparently the guys there were pumping out "first shots" and other such figures in funky colors by the dozen to sell. I got several from him and he had lots, lots more.
Very interesting. I was wondering though... was he working in one of the factories back in Asia, or at Hasbro in the US? I didn't think that Hasbro people would generally have close access to the materials or molds to create their own 'first shots'. Based on what I've understood til now, I could see them being sent lots of 'first shots' from Asia/Mexico as part of the process of approving production standards. But I couldn't see them creating them themselves. I'd like to know more about this if possible.


Its_A_Trap said:
Most importantly, you need to be able to distinguish POTF2 from the rest of the modern lines - more unpainted production figures (not really first shots) have been cranked out of Asia since the early 2000's, but this wasn't the case for the POTF2 line.

I know exactly what you mean. For instance, my POTF2 A-Wing prototype, versus this other one from the Legacy Collection line. When I contacted the seller of the more modern A-Wing, they said "this out of stock", which gave me the feeling it could just as easily be back in stock if someone really wanted one. Having said that, it was only the impression I was left with. I can't comment on the seller.. they may be reputable or not. I have no idea. And I guess maybe that's the point I'm making.

Interestingly, the POTF2 prototype was advertised here and I'm shocked no one jumped on it before I did. I saw the ad and although interested, I opted not to PM the seller because I simply couldn't afford to pay for it. Then he happened to PM me about an item I had and a trade followed.

POTF2 A-Wing Prototype

Legacy Collection A-Wing 'Prototype' (?)

Leif
 
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Great discussion we have going. The more I read this thread, the more I "wonder" what a true prototype actually is. Looked over my different POTF2 examples last night and see differences that have evolved from the early POTF2 days to today.

Earlier prototypes were "shot" in whatever plastics were available at the time. Also, the letters "HFE" were not used, which I find odd. Since different plastics were used, there are some odd color combination's that appear from time to time. The green and orange Darth Vader comes to mind.

Also, the earlier prototypes seem studier (at least to me) than the newer ones. Accessories and weapons are more common as well. The definition of a first shot (to me) is the "first plastic representation of a figure". I have seen some some painted, unpainted, with copyright markings, without copyright markings and no holes. Just curious, what stage is an actual first shot?
 
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Jason_West said:
The definition of a first shot (to me) is the "first plastic representation of a figure". I have seen some some painted, unpainted, with copyright markings, without copyright markings and no holes. Just curious, what stage is an actual first shot?
We were sort of touching on this in my vintage section thread on Prototype Jargon. It sounds like the typical non-toy specific process for producing something, has a number of stages that are giving different labels. For making tools, it sounds like they use labels such as 'first offs', t0, t1, t2, etc, then 'last offs' at the end. The term 'first shot' in the toy procution biz, could be very specific to a certain stage, or maybe its a bit more 'general' to incldue a couple of stages. I really don't know.

I think its also important to think about the defintion of a prototype. To me, what makes a prototype a prototype is how it was used, and that can really only be estabished by provenance. If I worked at a factory in Hong Kong, and during the first shot process I ran off a couple of extras (without dates) to take home for my kid. Are they really prototypes? Maybe to some people. Probably not to me, because I then know they weren't really used in the process. Then there's the issue of what if you can't confirm exactly how it was used? If it appears to be a first shot without dates, is it good enough to just assume it was used as a prototype? Maybe. But I don't think its a certainty.

This sort of leads me to another question. In vintge era times they might have made tonnes of first shots, but the ones that survived and found their way into colelctions, were the ones that were sent back to Kenner HQ for inspection, approval, etc. First shots produced at the factory and not sent back to North Amercia were probably just trashed. Now we have this situation where the people in Asia making these things are selling them on the WWW as prototypes, and they have obviously never gone back to North America as part of the inspection/approval process. So if they weren't created as samples of the product to be inspected by the client (Hasbro) they have at least lost some significance in the process... IMO. The question is... how much does that matter? To me its significant. I like the idea that a prototype has made its way back into Kenner/Hasbro hands before moving into the realm of collectors.

Leif
 
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Very good discussion going on here guys.

I would say that Jason is right with his definition of first shot however the term is used loosely today to describe other prototoypes farther along in the line. First shot/test shot are used interchangibly it seems these days and I'm guilty of it myself.

On a side note I've got a first shot / test shot a wing pilot to go along with your a wing Leif if you're interested just lmk. I thought about picking that A-wing up but just wasn't a good time.

I think that many factors come into play with the changing times. The technology today is of course far greater than vintage times. I think that the rapid prototyping processes used today allows for more prototypes to be produced. The company itself is bigger and I assume has more key roles which also leads me to believe that these go through more hands than they once did. Because it's easier to create several prototypes and send them off to the people that need them rather than just one or 2 and pass them around this would lead to an increased number of them compared to vintage and even potf2 era figures.

I also agree that many of these multi color prototypes from potf2 are legit and can be traced back to sources at kenner and hasbro in a lot of cases. The provenance just gets lost in the high tech world today with people throwing them up on ebay with just a quick description. I always try to learn the history of items that I get off ebay especially if they're what I consider high end or high ticket pieces.

It does seem like a LOT of saga collection "prototypes" were made. You see them most often on ebay for low prices. I believe that many of these are just unpainted production figures. It appears that this kind of went away for a while after the saga line. Perhaps hasbro cracked down hard. This may have been when the HFE markings were put brought into play. I know that hasbro again recently has cracked down HARD over in china on prototypes as several of my sources have told me. It was getting really easy for them for a while and I'd get emails about once a week with new offers. I got an email 2 nights ago and that's the first time I've seen anything new offered in about 2 months +.

I'm babbling now and it's early and I haven't had coffee yet so I'll stop here for now.
 
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I haven't seen a whole lot of POTF2 protos for sale compared to more recent lines, and the ones I have seen are way more credible to me. JoesphY has a few for sale at BTT, and I recently picked one up off of him that I really like. When the POTF2 toys had first came out, I was one of the many who were disappointed with their muscleman sculpts. I continued to collect them though for several years though. Toward the middle and end of the POTF2 line, the figures were looking much better to me. When I picked up the AT-AT toy in 1997, I was pretty happy with the two exclusive figures included, General Veers (AT-AT Commander) & the AT-AT driver. They had dropped the muscleman sculpt, but they still lacked the realistic detail of more modern sculpts Hasbro is producing today. They actually reminded me of the vintage era figures, and I liked that. The vintage era figures were mainly standing poses, and by the 1990's 'action poses' were becoming more popular. I liked that these figures weren't sculpted in an action pose. So, when I saw this guy in Joe's for sale ad... I had to pick it up. No date/copyright stamp. First shot on the left, production example on the right.





Leif
 
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It seems to me, that at one of the celebration conventions there were rooms where people had set out protos and various items for sale. I remember seeing bunches of items all set out on hotel room beds. Is the picture linked to above from that occasion? Anyone remember when/where that was?

Leif
 
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The two images are from C2.

Robert
www.behindthetoys.com
Ah, thought so. Thanks Robert. There does seem to be quite a few EP1 first shots around. In general first shots are relatively plentiful compared to other prototypes, even for vintage lines. I've seen many Blue Snag first shots around. I owned an AT-ST driver first shot, and wouldn't you know it... another one, identical down to the first shot pistol showed up on the market almost at the same time. The same with emperor first shots; they seem to be more common. But in relation to newer lines... POTF2 stuff is relatively less common from what I see.

Leif
 
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Ah, thought so. Thanks Robert. There does seem to be quite a few EP1 first shots around. In general first shots are relatively plentiful compared to other prototypes, even for vintage lines. I've seen many Blue Snag first shots around. I owned an AT-ST driver first shot, and wouldn't you know it... another one, identical down to the first shot pistol showed up on the market almost at the same time. The same with emperor first shots; they seem to be more common. But in relation to newer lines... POTF2 stuff is relatively less common from what I see.

Leif
I have to find some old pictures from C3, C4 and C5, but there were several boxes of modern prototypes being sold from various collectors. Two beds were covered with prototypes at C3 alone. POTF2 or modern prototypes can be hit or miss. Joe has/had a huge stash that sold recently. I expect for CVI to be a good place for prototypes as well. Painted hardcopies are really nice to find, when available.
 
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I was hoping to see more modern prototypes at CV during the room/hallway sales but there were not too many around. I bought some hardcopy heads from Jordan and one first shot potf2 luke from another guy who had a few potf2 first shots and only one modern first shot during the sales. I brought a bunch of them to sell/trade and sold a pretty decent amount which was nice since i'm trying to thin out my collection. I'm going to be bringing more to CVI next year with some more mockups/samples and maybe a painted HC or 2
 
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The room sales for Celebration III and IV were stocked with POTF2 prototypes. I managed to pickup some key figures, that I have not seen for sale since. The room sales at CV were decent, as I expected better. A number of sales were held before the "big sale", so that might be one reason for the light stock of prototypes. I am sure we will see each other at CVI and please "hold the jawas" for me.. :)
 
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Thought I would share my first, first shot... A Secret Santa gift :disillusionment:

 
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Thanks guys :)

Here is the story behind it:

"I bought this 1st shot from a guy I met at the Hasbro Auction here in Cincinnati. We have been friends ever since. I was used for safety testing. Once their tests were complete they tossed them in a very large box to be sent to the grinder. My friend worked at Hasbro and would "find reasons" to get down in that area.
I can't imagine how much fun digging through that box and getting things for free was! "

The story adds a huge amount of colour to the brown plastic! Now I need to find a vintage Jawa first shot :sneaky:
 
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Ed,

Good luck on the vintage first shot.. ;)

I like the story from Dave concerning the POTF2 first shot. A number of sets (tall and short) have been found over the years, but the short one appears the most. The tall one is slightly harder to find, though the numbers should be even (go figure). They are the easiest of the POTF2 Jawas to find in prototype form, with the Ronto Jawa being the hardest. Let me know if you need any information on POTF2 Jawa prototypes.
 
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Thanks Jason,

I have just agreed to buy my second first shot Jawa, moulded in slightly different colour plastic, a darker shade of red/brown.
The icing on the cake is this one comes with a first shot blaster :wub:

Unfortunately it is the short Jawa. I will now be on the look out for the tall Jawa!
So could you tell me, what is the availability of Jawa hardcopies, like yours:


Are they significantly tougher to find?

Thanks for the help!
 
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Ed,

Thank you for the pub on my short hardcopy. :D

I completely forgot to mention hardcopies in my response. They are much harder to find than first shots and I can only recall seeing five of them over the last thirteen years of collecting POTF2 Jawa prototypes.

Known:

Two short (Jawa Two Pack)
One tall (Jawa Two Pack)
Action Collection (incomplete)
30th Anniversary Edition (CIV)

There might be more out there, but I have not seen any pictures. The few contacts I have, domestic and overseas have not seen any in other collections.

Please post pictures of your new short first shot and the blaster. Finding prototype weapons from the early POTF2 figures is a challenge..
 
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Guys IV looked for some modern Luke Bespin prototypes and I have only managed to unearth one. I have yet to see anymore First Shots or hard Copys. Are these just impossible to find ?.

Regards

Grant.
 
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Grant,

I will ask some questions for you.... Which first shot do you have? Is there anything in particular you are looking for, or is it pretty much anything Luke bespin related?

Jason,
Thank you so much for the info, looks like there is lots of great items out there, If anyone knows of any other prototype jawa items please drop me a pm :)

As soon as I have the new Jawa I will take some detailed photos.... And the blaster :)

Regards
Ed
 
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Here is a list of my modern Jawa prototypes.

Jawa Two Pack:
Short Jawa Hardcopy (Painted)
Short Hardcopy Heads (Unpainted)
Short Jawa First Shot (Non-Sonic Welded)
Short Jawa First Shot (Sonic Welded)
Short Jawa First Shot (Paint Sample)

Tall Jawa Hardcopy (Painted)
Tall Hardcopy Heads (Unpainted)
Tall Jawa First Shot (Sonic Welded)
Tall Jawa First Shot (Paint Sample)
Tall Unpainted Heads (On Sprue)


Commtech Jawa:
First Shot “Beige Arms” (Non-Sonic Welded)
First Shot “Brown Arms” (Non-Sonic Welded)
First Shot (Sonic Welded)


Jawa and Ronto:
Ronto Jawa Bagged Sample with Sign-Off Sheet


Saga 8” Jawa Two Pack:
Saga First Shots 8” (Alternate Design)


Galactic Heroes:
Galactic Heroes Jawa Test Shot

Attacktix:
Attacktix “Jawa Warlord” Test Shot


Legacy Collection:
Mock-up Legacy Jawa with First Shot WED Treadwell Droid
Legacy First Shot Jawa with Security Droid

Clone Wars:
Short First Shot
Short Paint Sample
Tall First Shot


Action Collection:
Action Collection Hardcopy (Incomplete)


Carded Samples and Mock-ups:

POTF2 Trilogo Jawa Two-Pack “Quality Control” Sample
30[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Collection Carded Sample
POTF2 Mock-up Holiday Edition

There are a few more out there that I am aware of or sold off, but I have been lucky enough to put together a nice set.
 
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Wow Jason. That's quite a list :) definitely a keeper for reference.

I will be attempting to locate some more of these, they are so much more accessible than vintage prototypes!

I have only purchased one first shot, so price wise I am not remotely educated on these. If it's not too vulgar could you post or pm me some idea of prices? Lastly what sort of numbers do these pieces exist in?

Do you know the history or the contact that your jawas came from? My favourite thing about mine is the story of it's existence and the purpose it carried out in the production process.

The painted hardcopy is just beautiful, I love the metal studs on the joints.

Thank you so much, from a very happy Jawa Scrumper!!!
 
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Ed,

I tried to send you a pm,but your box is full. Some of the information is posted below.

I keep the name, date, price and contact information for all of the jawa prototypes that I have purchased over the years. This comes in handy, if I need to sale them. Unlike Vintage prototypes,I do not have the full history of each figure.

Prices are hard to gauge for modern prototypes. First shots from the Jawa Two Pack should sale between $90.00 - $110.00 each. Paint samples are a tad cheaper. Unpainted figures with copyright information do exist and might sale for $100.00 for the pair. Painted hardcopies from the same pack would probably sale around $400.00. Of course, with very few being available, I could see the price go a little higher.

Prices for the other Jawa lines are all over the map. The attacktix and galatic heroes are the cheapest and would probably sale for around $20.00 each. First shots from the Commtech, Legacy, Clone Wars and 30th Anniversary line would probably command $140.00 for more. They are very hard to track down.

I can only remember two or three first shots of the Action Collection Jawa and the hardcopy that I have is probably a one of. The saga 8" first shots I have are the only ones I have seen. They were won on Ebay back in 2003 for roughly $100.00.

The few mock-ups or Kenner Standard versions I have seen over the years generally sale between $50.00 - $100.00. Of course, this is a rough estimate.

I could not give you any substantive numbers on modern prototype jawas. I can only state that a number of the large modern prototype collectors at each Celebration Event had very few jawas for sale. I purchased all of them I could find.

Hope this helps.Please let me know if you need any more information.
 
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Guys if you have any leads on ANY modern Luke Bespin prototypes Id be interested. I have one First Shot but Im not sure which wave its from.

Kind Regards


Grant.:)
 
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I've been after this guy for 3-4 years to go with my focus. The one pictured is in an Asian collection, so I'm wondering if these ever made it stateside. LMK if anyone knows where I can find one. I will pay well!

 
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Thanks Jason! Not sure what the problem with PMs is, but it seems to be fairly widespread. Anyway, the first shot currently listed is one that I already have. ... although I have considered making the seller an offer simply because he has it priced a little high and he's re-listed it at least 10 times over the past few months. Gotta show the fat man some love!
 
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