Palpatine's Return: Why don't people get it?

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I belong to a number of SW groups on social media. Due to this, I'm fairly exposed to "general consensus" sort of takes. Aspects like, Mando was largely well received on the average, ST not so much, PT seems a mixed bag and often seems the positive or negative take is largely determined by age, etc. Now again, these are all seeming averages, this is not to say that ST lovers or Mando haters don't exist. Also, by no means am I saying one opinion is right or wrong; to each their own. I've just noticed a generalized percentage take on certain SW aspects.

But to this very day, there's one belief in SW fandom that still baffles me...and I don't think it's opinion based, it's just a fundamental but all too common mistake I see.

A lot of people still seem to be under the impression that TROS Palpatine is the very same from ROTJ. And by that, I don't mean same consciousness but rather the incorrect assumption that it's literally the very same body. Now I'll agree in the sense that yes, that would indeed be absurd if that were the case, but that's not the case. My over-all point is, there's a massive misconception that Palpatine's return wasn't explained and that Palpatine just miraculously survived the destruction of the second Death Star. It's still a misconception to this very day, I saw many discussing it in a group. And while indeed it's not explicitly and overtly touched upon, I found it pretty clear as to what's going on through the context clues shown in TROS and even through specific lines, particularly ROTS, in the PT. Did people need spoon-fed and handheld to put two and two together? It's really not that vague IMO. It's not that it's not there but rather that a lot simply didn't seem to understand it. Because I very commonly see comments dictating that they absolutely didn't get it.

Now whether you like the explanation or not is something entirely different and not really the subject I'm discussing. I'm not even certain I like it. I think it very overt that Palpatine was a last ditch effort due to Rian prematurely killing Snoke. Love or hate Snoke's demise, there's little denying it didn't seem to mesh up with Abram's plans. Palpatine also was likely a pretty superficial nostalgia play, to which I get the criticism. But I can't be the only one who gets kind of irritated by the sheer amount of ignorant comments surrounding the Palpatine return. Like said, I'm not even certain I like it...but I at least understand what I'm critiquing.

Palpatine is established in the PT as a puppet master. Now we can pick apart the questionable writing and decisions in that convoluted plan to power, that's on Lucas for just how he wrote it, but regardless of that he's defined as a grand schemer and manipulator nonetheless. This was the man pulling the strings behind the Clone Wars. He is a Dark Lord of the Sith, a culture that is synonymous with betrayal, treason, and deception. Through lines of dialogue, this is a man who's obsessed with obtaining power and subsequently retaining that power. Through his false promise to help save Padme from dying...what he's actually saying is that he HIMSELF is obsessed with cheating HIS death. Anakin is just a pawn. It's not stated, on film, that Palpatine was the apprentice of Darth Plagueis who learned ways of potential immortality. It's not outright said that he's that apprentice who then subsequently betrayed him in his sleep. Yet through the context of the scene and just knowledge of how he operates as a character, it's pretty obvious.

So through all of this, it lends the pieces toward putting his return together. Sith are instinctively trained to eventually usurp their masters, thus I find it rather safe to assume Palpatine (the grand schemer and deceiver) would absolutely have a closeted contingency plan for if Vader turned on him. Yet his lust for power and need to keep it, hence a desire for "more life," wouldn't allow that Sith tradition to happen. But what if he were to be killed? Surely his body will eventually die of old age as well. What then? Well...through his learnings from Plagueis alongside his experience with cloning through the Clone Wars machinations, I found it obvious that what we witness in TROS is the product of all these context clues.

He built clone vessels to inhabit upon his death, to which he very much so did perish aboard the DSII, but only the physical and not in essence was gone. This was the trick he'd learned from his Sith master and upbringing. That is the ultimate irony, the sort of Faustian catch: in order to cheat death, you must first die. It's not altogether different from what happened to Sauron in Lord of the Rings or Voldemort in Harry Potter, their essence lingered on past death as a sort of incorporeal form searching for something to latch onto. Palpatine, however, through his Sith acolytes, already manufactured his. I also don't see why this would be such a stretch. If Jedi Spirits exist, wouldn't reason say Sith perhaps could have their own perverse equivalent? And while I'm aware that Sith cannot become "spirits," that's not exactly what's going on here in the traditional sense. Jedi are giving and compassionate, Sith however take and use, which is exactly what Palpatine is doing. He's using clone hosts in order to return, a gross almost demonic corruption and fundamentally unethical take on Jedi spirits.

Now lore has established that cloning force sensitive beings doesn't exactly produce great results. It's also been established that the dark side tends to eat away at ones physical form over an extended period of time. Thus it goes to assume that a dark side clone vessel designed to retain Palpatine's spirit likely isn't going to sustain him for long. It's going to deteriorate. It likely also resulted in a bunch of hybrid, botched, and genetic failures. This could explain what Snoke is, but ultimately Snoke's explanation is rather irrelevant. The only vital information for Snoke is knowing he was just a puppet. I think this is why Palpatine, when seen in the beginning of the film, is rotting. These shoddy Xerox copies can't contain him for long. He's using them up like batteries, swapping from one to another, hence why he wants a pure force capable host. That perhaps could hold him for a significant timeframe. At some point, Rey's father was made, but fled instead of submitting to Palpatine's will or perhaps Palpatine not even wishing to use his defective, force-lacking body. I found it pretty obvious Palpatine didn't get down and dirty, the "child" of Palpatine was not a natural birth, but rather another clone gone awry. Because delving into Palpatine's sex life would just be absurd, particularly when a more likely and sensible answer exists.

Now I gathered ALL of this from my very first viewing of TROS. Now I believe, also, this is a relatively close facsimile to what's now confirmed in canon. Regardless of liking or disliking this, I still...to this day...don't understand why people DON'T get what happened and even get it so DRASTICALLY wrong. I get criticizing it, but just know what you're criticizing first. I really don't think you had to do hardcore Sherlock level detective work to figure out what's going down with Palpatine's return. It's all there. And not only that, but proclaiming it's not explained at all? It is, just again...you're not spoon-fed the answer. They don't spell it out for you.
 
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An over analysis of the force awakens leaves one to the assumption that if Rey
is related to a main character she must be related to the Emperor since a relationship to any other character makes those characters look like sh,t

But that is the only real indication that the Emperor had anything to do with the sequel

Now it obvious that the sequel had no overall coherent plan, so that is the source of why people don’t understand why the Emperor is alive & add to that different interpretations of whether he is a clone, old, replaced clone, whatever. Like myself I saw it maybe twice & just didn’t invest into the story at all. Unfortunately there is enough wrong with the rest of the sequel that it doesn’t feel connected to the other stories. few people really want to get that invested in a story answer, that they think they won’t like.
 
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TBH, by the time we get to the "resurrected" Emperor I had pretty much lost interest in what they were trying to get at. I will say that it's possible that some people aren't as deeply rooted in the lore enough to see the dots connect, and that he's essentially a Clone not the OG Palpatine. And a failed Clone at that being as he need a machine to exist much like his old comrade in arms Vader. So this is why he needs Rey's body and connection the the Force in order to live on. However, the problem compounds when we find out that Ray is actually the child of a non defective Clone that survived. Because why would you need to wait for Rey if her father/mother exists? Are they somehow not valid due to being void of the Force?

They simply made the movie overly complicated for no reason.
 
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Those are VERY good theories guys. The misconceptions or misunderstandings probably DO just stem from so many having checked out and not even wanting to put in a bit of "detective" (again I don't think it's really that much) effort or even really CARING how he came back. It probably really IS that. Which then speaks volumes toward my mindset: I DO remember basically so desperately at least TRYING to make SOME sense of all of it. Maybe that will make it mildly more tolerable?! And when I pieced all this together, before it was even canonical, I realize while it IS indeed in essence there (though again you must do it yourself as it's not overt) and does indeed add up and make sense...that still I sadly don't really care for it. :ROFLMAO:
 
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I guess some people are fine with his return and it works for them, but for me it's another instance where they "kind of" ruin a Legacy OT character. And considering it was on the heals of what they did to Luke that's why it rubs me the wrong way. I mean was it their intent to ruin another great OT character or are they truly that daft?

I had no qualms about a good story for why he's still around but that didn't happen, they essentially stole a bad EU plot and somehow made it worse IMO. Simply because it came out of left field and there was no groundwork laid/hints for that character in the previous instalments.

It's just tragically saddening to me.
 
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Well the big issue I have is...I'm not even inherently opposed to a sort of "demonic palpatine spirit in a clone" return. I even think that kind of works IF done proper. The MAJOR issue I had was Rey being the one to finish him off for good. Well really, this does open a can of worms in that...IS he finished off for good? But if you can say so, roll with it, shouldn't it really have been Anakin's spirit? Now I get the spirits are there, but Anakin is just muddied by the sheer amount of how many. He doesn't feel special among them, he just feels one of a number of voices. If they had instead PROPERLY "physically" (as in shown) Anakin was...ACTUALLY...the one to end him once and for all in order to help Rey instead of it Rey herself, I think this all would have sat better with me. Instead now it feels that Anakin's sacrifice, redemption, was in vain. That is wasn't this cosmic balancing conclusion to his arch, but rather just temporary...and someone ELSE finishes his arch. THAT is what REALLY bothers me about the whole thing: not so much Palpatine back, but rather how they decided to end him at last.
 
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Agreed. Especially if their intent was that Palpatine actually created him via the Force, like it's presented in that one comic. Then it only seems fitting that he is the only one capable enough to end his creator. Perhaps Rey physically and Anakin spiritually, which is something I think we should have seen happen in some form. Like you say if he "survived" the death at Vader's hands via falling/exploding in the Death Star, then it certainly makes sense that he would somehow have a contingency plan here as well. Though I guess that is why we hear voices in the Force crying out, which are meant to symbolize them cutting off his spirit from escaping?
 
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I mean that's what I kinda took from it, but I think it's up for interpretation. I took it as the spirits killed the "spirit" of Palpatine (meaning for good) and Rey killed the body. But it's just NOT well done. I mean you have, for my money, totally RANDOM Jedi in that voice montage. Jedi that have little to no direct personal connection to Palpatine. And yet, all they did for Anakin was blended him into them? NO! He needs to STAND OUT! Yet he doesn't. When I first saw the film, I didn't give a damn about any of those voices...I was waiting for Anakin's. The one that MATTERED. Yet in the context of the film we got, it's just ANOTHER voice. I find that a fundamental misunderstanding of SW. He should have "physically" (aka visually) shown. I kind of envisioned almost an astral fight we can visually see between Palpatines, now shaded in a red aura, and Anakin's shaded in the classic blue Jedi spirit aura. Maybe that would have been too much. I'm not asking for an action number here, but more a MENTAL battle we could SEE and yet the point is they're so Godly and omnipotent our minds cannot truly contemplate. THAT is what ends him, not crossing freaking lightsabers, lightening reflected, Raiders of the Last Ark melt moment, and hearing a dozen voices. What we got just doesn't seem respectful to what we've had. The issue isn't Palpatine's return IMO, HENCE the post, it's how it was done.
 
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Good examples would be: Imagine Voldemorts death but it's Ron who kills him for good, not Harry. Imagine Sauron's death, but Gollum doesn't fall into Mt. Doom with the ring...Gimli does. It removed the emotion, the relationship, the point. The reason Harry is the one to finish Voldemort is because he was the most deeply effected by him. Personal! The reason why Gollum falling into Mt. Doom to destroy the ring is because it was deeply part of his life, controlled him, became him, corrupted him, it was him. It ruined him. It fits that if the ring goes, he goes.

Now both of these villains also died. But came back. And it was done well. If you're going to do a sort of hauntingly mysterious demonic means resurrection...you cannot end it with just a RANDOM person (Rey) closing it instead of those directly involved and have it feel satisfying. Maybe you can in a horror movie, actually you can, but in an epic...no. That's not how it works. Anakin should have appeared, visually, and for good ended Palpatine with simply the aid or Rey. I think they tried to imply that happened, but it doesn't work. Yet...no....it was Rey and Rey alone on a visual sense. The one time they SHOULD have gone visuals, they didn't.
 
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An over analysis of the force awakens leaves one to the assumption that if Rey
is related to a main character she must be related to the Emperor since a relationship to any other character makes those characters look like sh,t

But that is the only real indication that the Emperor had anything to do with the sequel

Now it obvious that the sequel had no overall coherent plan, so that is the source of why people don’t understand why the Emperor is alive & add to that different interpretations of whether he is a clone, old, replaced clone, whatever. Like myself I saw it maybe twice & just didn’t invest into the story at all. Unfortunately there is enough wrong with the rest of the sequel that it doesn’t feel connected to the other stories. few people really want to get that invested in a story answer, that they think they won’t like.

Well there is an interesting theory out there and that is that if you slow down Rey's theme, first introduced in TFA, by a significant percentage....it's the Palpatine theme. And frankly, I've listened...it's not wrong. It IS the Emperor theme from ROTJ when slowed down. So that could or would imply that William's was privy to Rey being a Palpatine all along from the get-go of the ST. But...despite all this...do I personally believe this? No. I think it's just a coincidence firstly, else why wouldn't John have spoken out himself knowing the theoretical hype Rey's lineage got? I mean really, you likely can slow any song down to a certain level and your brain will assimilate another song akin.

But I do recall all the lineage theories. The major ones I remember are:

Rey/Obi-Wan: Could have been interesting if Obi-Wan had had a secret affair, but I never felt the timeframe meshes up. So I'd think she'd have to be a granddaughter, but then again...she is to Palpatine's clone so...

Rey/Luke: Perhaps the most obvious. I think they didn't go down this road because it WAS that obvious.

Rey/Palpatine: This actually existed long before it was confirmed in TROS. It's an interesting idea but in the end, how it was canonically done was meh.

Rey/Han: Now this one would have been interesting. It does mesh with the old EU, Solo sibling rivals, Kylo/Ben Solo and Rey. But you'd have to explain a lot like how Han and Leia knew who she was but DIDN'T say, WHY they didn't say, WHY they hid/got rid of her, etc.
 
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As far as the clone thing, since it’s never actually said I prefer to interpret it as happening the natural way.

There is a story telling tripe that I hate, Story suggests character did something bad, but that bad thing would make you realistically hate said character. then later the story goes out of the way to reverse what they said & declare virginity looking at you Phantom of the Opera!
 
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Good examples would be: Imagine Voldemorts death but it's Ron who kills him for good, not Harry. Imagine Sauron's death, but Gollum doesn't fall into Mt. Doom with the ring...Gimli does. It removed the emotion, the relationship, the point. The reason Harry is the one to finish Voldemort is because he was the most deeply effected by him. Personal! The reason why Gollum falling into Mt. Doom to destroy the ring is because it was deeply part of his life, controlled him, became him, corrupted him, it was him. It ruined him. It fits that if the ring goes, he goes.

Now both of these villains also died. But came back. And it was done well. If you're going to do a sort of hauntingly mysterious demonic means resurrection...you cannot end it with just a RANDOM person (Rey) closing it instead of those directly involved and have it feel satisfying. Maybe you can in a horror movie, actually you can, but in an epic...no. That's not how it works. Anakin should have appeared, visually, and for good ended Palpatine with simply the aid or Rey. I think they tried to imply that happened, but it doesn't work. Yet...no....it was Rey and Rey alone on a visual sense. The one time they SHOULD have gone visuals, they didn't.

I see what you're saying but in a way it's kind of irrelevant that Vader didn't finish off the emperor for good. the OT was about Vader's arc; not palpatine's. Vader was sheeve's puppet, for too many years -- theirs was an abusive relationship, if there ever was one. at the end of ROTJ he finally stood up for himself and confronted his own bully (so to speak). he stood up to his tormentor, like a battered wife who finally gathers the courage to fight back. Vader is redeemed by this, whether he "finishes" the emperor or not.... his story is still complete.... even if it just means that palpatine now becomes somebody else's problem to solve (not vader's). vader did his part in defeating the emperor, after all. it could be argued that Rey's Ultimate Victory over sheev, wouldn't have been possible without Vader's contribution to the story -- in completing his OWN arc, he set up a sequence of events which allowed Rey to finish the job. in that sense, his "victory" at the end of ROTJ is STILL a victory. even if he wasn't the one who actually "finished" sheev by his own actions. his story is still complete.

Take RO for example. Jynn's arc is complete whether she destroys the death star or not. she did her part in defeating the DS, after all. it could be argued, that Luke's Ultimate Victory over the DS, wouldn't have been possible without Jynn's contribution to the story -- in completing her OWN arc, her actions set up a sequence of events, which allowed Luke to finish the job. in that sense, her "victory" at the end of RO is STILL a victory. even if she wasn't the one who actually "finished" the death star by her own actions. her story is still complete.

if that makes any sense.
 
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as for the original question "why dont people get it?" -- because it's stoopid LOL. :p

the Return of Palpatine doesn't make any sense -- so it's no surprise that people can't make sense of it. :rolleyes:

cheers.
 
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But I do recall all the lineage theories. The major ones I remember are:

Rey/Obi-Wan: Could have been interesting if Obi-Wan had had a secret affair, but I never felt the timeframe meshes up. So I'd think she'd have to be a granddaughter, but then again...she is to Palpatine's clone so...

Rey/Luke: Perhaps the most obvious. I think they didn't go down this road because it WAS that obvious.

Rey/Palpatine: This actually existed long before it was confirmed in TROS. It's an interesting idea but in the end, how it was canonically done was meh.

Rey/Han: Now this one would have been interesting. It does mesh with the old EU, Solo sibling rivals, Kylo/Ben Solo and Rey. But you'd have to explain a lot like how Han and Leia knew who she was but DIDN'T say, WHY they didn't say, WHY they hid/got rid of her, etc.
The Obi-Wan theory just never made sense to me due to his perceived duty/honor to the Jedi Order, his character just didn't strike me as one who'd have offspring by that method. Perhaps much later in life after he settled down on Tatooine he might of had an affair and not cared whether she became pregnant or not, I mean by that time who would even care about such matters...

The Luke scenario does scream too obvious even though it makes the most sense second to being Solo's kid. Simply because the numbered films were the Skywalker saga, and it would be in character for Luke to start a new progressive Jedi Order that isn't bogged down with ancient out of date ideals that helped bring about their fall. It would also continue the legacy for doing good throughout the Galaxy. Second would be as mention Solo's Daughter as she'd still technically be of Skywalker lineage via Leia, thus could still carry on that legacy. Yet it would have been tough to try to keep that fact hidden throughout 3 movies, because what self-respecting parent abandons their child? And how do they "not know", unless they both committed to a mind wipe to "protect" her.

The one that does add intrigue is being of Palpatine, and I do find that one to have more depth character wise in addition to being not expected. I just didn't like how it came about, feels odd and forced as well considering all the vague and complicated ways they tried to explain how it happened. We know that Palpy wouldn't willfully have offspring unless it was for selfish reasons, so it most definitely had to be from a Clone. Trouble is cloning and the force aren't an easy thing to create, which is why she's an unexpected accident.

The biggest tragedy I think is that due to their mishandling of the Franchise it's caused too much negativity with regards to the actors, so we'll likely never see Rey or Fin pop up again in. Because I do feel that there was some potential with those two characters.
 
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Yeah the Obi-Wan one wasn't one of my personal favorites, though I suppose I understand why it was on the table. Yeah to make it make much of any sense, it would have had to have been post the purge IMO. I suppose this theory was running with the fact that Obi-Wan wasn't always the most open and truthful to Luke, so what else perhaps did he hide? I guess?! And even then, does that still make sense timeframe wise? I guess you could kind of finagle it to make sense. I still think it would be...odd...if Obi-Wan had an affair and didn't sense she was pregnant or sense the child after birth. I mean, can you really hide something like (for long anyway) from a powerful Jedi? And then that raises the question, why would she hide the baby? And then subsequently, you'd have to have the parents of Rey (the granddaughter of Obi-Wan) get her to Jakku as well.

I think most walked out of TFA thinking Rey's a Skywalker, likely Luke's. It felt like a total "DUH," yet I think most of us came to that very conclusion. It's TOO obvious. Now granted, Lucas did seem to behave like Palpatine being Sidious was a shock and awe moment...and it's totally not. Heck I've always argued that even if the PT did get released first, common sense still dictates it's freaking Palpatine! I will say, sometimes the simplest answer is the best one. Had Rey been written as Luke's daughter, perhaps we wouldn't have gotten the much maligned curmudgeon and cowardly Luke Skywalker. Perhaps, but then they may have also gone an angle where he hid that from her like Obi-Wan hid Vader's true identify from him? But then you'd have to explain why, likely culminating in a very clout cringe "I am your father" reveal moment. Think like how EVERY Terminator film has to say "I'll be back" or "Come with me if you want to live." It's so cheesy, unoriginal, and really takes one out of the scene. It reminds you of how, oh yeah, I'm just a dude watching a movie and they said THE thing again. Eyerolling!

On top of all this, would they repeat that "lineage reveal" moment again? We got it with Vader to Luke and while it doesn't play out exactly the same, we got a variation of it with Han to Kylo/Ben Solo revealed to the audience through Snoke. Then again, we DID get it...again...in the final TROS cut when Ben tells Rey she's a Palpatine. Another variation, but it's the gist. Man do parents in SW seem to suck. Does anyone just have a functional family circle in this galaxy? Just repeating the "everyone has to be related to someone BIG" aspect so often is kind of old hat by now. I get PERHAPS Rey being related to someone "special" adds up a bit more as it can at least explain away some the Mary Sue absurd power levels she has, but end of the day I think we'd all rather have just had hear earn those abilities through excessive training and experiences as opposed to an Ex Machina of she just naturally can because hey, what do you know, powerful genes. It's kind of a copout, you know? I mean...it works for superheroes, but does it for SW? Perhaps, but I'd argue in a subtle way and Rey's talents are anything but subtle. Which makes me wonder, perhaps at least in THIS case...Rian was right. Maybe Rey does work better as no-one? But there's that catch 22, if you do that then she's the most Mary Sue character ever who can do absurd force feats. Why? Because she can, that's why. There's issues with ALL of this IMO.

I will say Palpatine being the answer is, at least conceptually, the most interesting IMO. How it came out in the end, however, is another story. I will say, I hate the idea of a Palpatine romance. From what I gather from his dialogue, he didn't want a heir to continue his legacy...he WANTED to continue his own legacy into the next life, that secret to immortality he'd unlocked with his master. But due to the cloning experiments to sustain his spirit should he be killed, an accidental "heir" was created nonetheless. I don't find that terrible, only bad in how it was executed.
 
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In TFA Rey seemed to have some idea of who her parents were (she even says big secret) but then later for reasons she seems to forget her own heritage.

If she knew she was descended from a powerful force user, that would have given a good in story reason why she was a quick learner.

**********
Now while a hated a certain PT theory because I didn’t want to hear the Emperor say Anakin I am your father.

Over the years I realized that old Palps might actually be Vader’s unsaid dad, as Vader seems to be the only one we see him care about. Shimi was a slave & would have lived a slave’s life. So realistically she might not know who the father really is?

This of course makes the later relationships complicated.

Unless you know that ObiWan is really Luke’s & Leia’s dad, & Vader was wrong about more things than he thought. Because Ben is a lying B@stard!
 
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Yeah there are some theories and...I can't recall if it's confirmed canon (I sincerely don't remember) now that Palpatine is his "dad," but if I remember proper...it's complicated. He's not so much his father, per se, in a traditional sense. Rather he (and Plagueis) are his creator. Think less "Let's get it ON" biological sperm donor to Shmi and more through immaculate conception. Biblical. This is why Shmi doesn't understand it, it basically just...happened one day. Which I can see, in a sense, due to the one convo Palpatine has with Anakin. This dialogue is strongly implying this was how Anakin was "birthed," he's talking about Anakin, and Palpatine and Plagueis likely the ones to have done it:

"Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create...life."

Now this version wouldn't so much be God creating Jesus (Anakin) through impregnating Mary (Shmi) so much as Lucifer (Palpatine) doing this to harbor a tool (Vader) for his manipulations. This also explains Palpatines immediate interest in Anakin, perhaps he can sense his creation? That's my understanding of it. Again, I can't remember if this is canon now or just a popularized theory.

It's always been a little too heavy handed on the theological Christian parallels for my taste, but I certainly see why people see it this way. It TOTALLY is using Biblical metaphor.

Now something I forgot to mention: I always found a scene in TFA rather...odd. Me and MasterFett covered all the possible "WHAT IF?" scenario's Rey could have been, bit we forgot to cover in depth one despite mentioning it. It's the scene when Kylo is getting an officers field report that the First Order lost BB-8 due to the Resistance interfering. He has his first tantrum on screen and the officer hesistated to follow-up. He says something akin to, "That's not all. There was a girl with them," and Kylo explodes in a raging replying of "WHAT! GIRL!?" after force pulling him into a chokehold. Am I the only one that got more from that scene, originally, than I guess was intended? I thought it implying that he's aware of a potentially powerful force user, a female, out there somewhere. Like he possibly even knew Rey once. Largely I think this scene spawned the siblings theories. So had that been true, Han and Leia would be her parents obviously, but you could have went the angle that the reason she was hidden was BECAUSE of her brothers rampage at Luke's Academy due to Snoke's corruptions. Does that timeframe add up?

Had to do some math homework. According to Wookieepedia:
5 ABY: Ben Solo is born. One year post events of ROTJ.
15 ABY: Rey is born. Ben Solo, age 10, is sent to train with his Uncle.
21 ABY: Rey is sold to Unkar Plutt and hidden on Jakku at age 6. Ben Solo age 16.
28 ABY: Ben Solo turns, destroys the Academy, and adopts the name Kylo Ren at age 23. Rey age 13.
34 ABY: Events of TFA take place. Rey age 19. Kylo Ren age 29.

So thusly, no, Rey hidden by friends of Han and Leia (her parents in this hypothetical scenario) due to Ben's turn to Kylo Ren does not add-up timeframe-wise. However, strikingly I noticed something might. If you factor in when Ben Solo first encountered Snoke, not physically but mentally, I got this from Snoke's Wookieepedia:

"Snoke became invested in the Skywalker family bloodline, believing Princess Leia Organa and Han Solo's son, Ben Solo—grandson of Anakin Skywalker and nephew of then-Jedi Master Luke Skywalker—had the right balance of the light and dark sides of the Force in him due his heritage of Darth Vader's grandson,[14] making him the ultimate prize for the dark side user.[6] In addition, Snoke had been indirectly responsible for convincing Skywalker to rebuild the Jedi Order in an attempt to break the latter when he had it destroyed alongside Skywalker himself. The corruption of Ben Solo was instrumental to his plan.[12] Once on a mission to Elphrona, Snoke connected with the young boy via telepathy, and, after he sensed his discomfort, used the opening to undermine his uncle and master and plant a seed of doubt within the young Solo about the Jedi Order.[

Having known of Snoke's interest in her son's potential for power, Organa sought to protect Ben from the mysterious dark side wielder. However, she did not inform her husband about Snoke's designs on their son, believing that, as a non-Force-sensitive, Han would not understand Organa's responsibility to shield Ben from the influence of the dark side.[14] She, therefore, trusted her twin brother, Luke Skywalker, to keep Ben in the light by training him as a Jedi."

In the Kylo Ren comics, Ben sure looks to be 15 or 16-ish when Snoke first contacted him and began his corruption. Maybe even a little younger than that. Note he's described as a young boy. That then would make sense chronologically to when Rey was hidden. So with that knowledge, Luke and Leia aware that Snoke was attempting to corrupt Ben (watching them all for ages now - keep in mind Luke had even physically met Snoke at some uncertain point before this) but misbelieving they could snuff him out, if you play along with the hypothetical scenario and if Han and Leia had been made into Rey's secret parents...what if they began hiding her from Snoke as they didn't want him to know she even existed? Perhaps they could protect Ben from him, but it's not ideal Snoke knows he exists at all and ALREADY is making attempts to turn him. They KNOW this. They can't risk it with their other child. They knew Snoke would come for her if he discovered her existence.

This also could explain other aspects: Why Han and Leia separated. Han was not made aware of Snoke at first, he was left out, why must they hide the daughter? This would create massive resentment in Han. This would explain why Han, Leia, and even Chewie feel so connected to her immediately in TFA. This would explain what that above "WHAT! GIRL?!" Ben Solo scene meant. Kylo would likely be familiar...but only loosely (think an older military sibling having a little sister he barely knows)...hence why he seems to identify or suspect something about her. To know SOMETHING! This would explain more as to why holding Luke/Anakin's lightsaber triggered her vision. It's her Uncles and Grandfathers. This would explain why they have a force dyad, yin and yang...one light and one dark but part of a larger whole force. Siblings. And those parents of Rey, the ones she so vaguely remembers, were actually just allies of Leia and Luke: Someone like Lor San Tekka in THIS hypothetical. Hence why he's on Jakku but also so attached to Leia...but also pretty mysterious and also perhaps why Kylo kills him so bitterly, suspecting he was involved with whatever happened to his sister.

I don't know, guys, I think that makes for a least a FUN else worlds alternate reality "WHAT IF?" on this and honestly, I might even like it better than what we officially got. Thanks much if you indulged in my madness and actually read all this. Hah.
 
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I see what you're saying but in a way it's kind of irrelevant that Vader didn't finish off the emperor for good. the OT was about Vader's arc; not palpatine's. Vader was sheeve's puppet, for too many years -- theirs was an abusive relationship, if there ever was one. at the end of ROTJ he finally stood up for himself and confronted his own bully (so to speak). he stood up to his tormentor, like a battered wife who finally gathers the courage to fight back. Vader is redeemed by this, whether he "finishes" the emperor or not.... his story is still complete.... even if it just means that palpatine now becomes somebody else's problem to solve (not vader's). vader did his part in defeating the emperor, after all. it could be argued that Rey's Ultimate Victory over sheev, wouldn't have been possible without Vader's contribution to the story -- in completing his OWN arc, he set up a sequence of events which allowed Rey to finish the job. in that sense, his "victory" at the end of ROTJ is STILL a victory. even if he wasn't the one who actually "finished" sheev by his own actions. his story is still complete.

Take RO for example. Jynn's arc is complete whether she destroys the death star or not. she did her part in defeating the DS, after all. it could be argued, that Luke's Ultimate Victory over the DS, wouldn't have been possible without Jynn's contribution to the story -- in completing her OWN arc, her actions set up a sequence of events, which allowed Luke to finish the job. in that sense, her "victory" at the end of RO is STILL a victory. even if she wasn't the one who actually "finished" the death star by her own actions. her story is still complete.

if that makes any sense.
Sure...but we aren't talking about Jyn. This is Anakin/Vader, one of the most recognized movie characters of all time. The main character in the most successful movie franchise ever. And father to the other 2 most popular movie heros ever.

Understanding that Carrie Fishers death changed things...their mishandling of this rendered Vader/Luke/Leia as nothing more than stepping stones, no more important to the overall story than Cassian and Jyn. Totally inexcusable.
 
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The Emperor died in ROJ. That makes sense. The sequels were nothing more than a pile of no talent hacks trying to recapture a micro second of what the original Trilogy was and will always be. They Failed miserably!........ And that's all I have to say about that.. 🤖
 
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I spent too much time discussing this turd of a sequel already, so:

Any explanation, however spoonfed or implied or clear or hidden, is pointless if the story doesn't work out. And the story here doesn't work out.

Finis.
 
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People don't get it cause it wasn't exactly made clear. My initial reading was that his body was like a clone body that was failing him because it couldn't contain super evil dark side power without deteriorating. And that he wanted Rey to possess her or something. But then he told Kylo to kill her I think? Which doesn't make a lot of sense if he wanted Rey. And then he finds out Rey and Kylo are a dyad and actually that can heal his body. But not enough that he doesn't have the puffy lightning face still? I'm not sure if he already knew they were a dyad before. If he did I don't know why he wouldn't just tell Kylo to bring her alive. I don't know I've only seen the movie twice so the details are a little fuzzy. They made it way more convoluted than it needed to be. I think most people would have been able to roll with the idea that he was like an evil spirit trying to possess Rey cause she was the only one powerful enough to store his life force. People know what the Exorcist is, I think that'd make enough sense. But I don't remember them ever making anything about Palpatine clear. Movie just seemed too rushed, I've heard too many stories from actors in the film that JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio didn't even know what the actual story was going to be while they were actually filming, let alone at the beginning of the trilogy. Kylo Ren's lines were recorded in a closet like a couple months before the movie came out. If you like the movie that's great, but even if I thought it was good I'd be thinking it was a miracle it came out good with what information we know about the actual production.
 
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Totally, for a franchise that isn't supposed to be taken that seriously they sure did make too overly complicated.
 
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Totally, for a franchise that isn't supposed to be taken that seriously they sure did make too overly complicated.

when looking at the rest of the saga, in the context of the ST, then the simple solution to palpatine's return seems obvious:
(a) it would seem Palpatine's entire motivation all along was to acquire a new body, in order to house his "ghost" (I'll buy that);
(b) so that's why he 'manipulated the midichlorians to create life' in the first place, aka: anakin, so he could inhabit anakin's body and live forever (makes sense);
(c) but when anakin's body became a burnt chimichanga -- then he turned his attention to anakin's "offspring" instead , aka: luke -- so he could inhabit luke's body now instead (this follows that);
so (d) when luke proved strong enough to resist the dark side and foil his nefarious plans... then.... well....

....wouldn't it just make MORE sense if he turned his attention to LUKE's offspring now? just to be consistent?
(if not, just for "simplicity" in all this?)

I mean : wouldn't this train wreck make a BIT more sense, if Rey was Luke's offspring now instead of palpatine's?
(just so palpatine's ongoing interest in the "skywalker clan" would NOT be completely in vain..?)*

but instead : she's the offspring-of-palpatine's-offspring now..?
read: the-OFF-SCREEN-offspring-of-a-failed-clone-who-was-created-off-screen-and-escaped-the-lab-OFF-SCREEN!?

^^ not only is this "overly complicated" (as you say), but it's based on events that happened "OFF-SCREEN" (in a 20-hour saga..!?).
if THAT was to be the story all along, then WHAT were those 20 hours for!? o_O

* (if the solution to palpatine's problem, all along, required nothing more than his OWN DNA, then why didn't he just **** into a vat a long time ago..? wtf did he need anakin for..? the entire saga becomes irrelevant).
 
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I can kind of cut him some slack in the PT because he doesn't yet know how to prevent dying, as he tell Anakin it's "secret" they can discover together.
So he obviously killed his master before he learned the tricks he really wanted/needed? Henceforth he likely didn't have the knowledge needed to extend his life until he vanished into the Expanded Regions for more research.
 
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I spent too much time discussing this turd of a sequel already, so:

Any explanation, however spoonfed or implied or clear or hidden, is pointless if the story doesn't work out. And the story here doesn't work out.

Finis.

Agreed with the above. It would be nice to send all of the sequels into a black hole and never hear or see of them ever again. (Actually I already live my Life like that!)... 🤖
 
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The problem with that idea is if some Alien species comes across it they might think it's a historical record of Earth! lol
 
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Wait a sec, why was his clone body old at all? Why wasn’t the clone young? Why would you make the clone be like 100 years old?

That one is simple brother....his clones are imperfect. Think Frankenstein. It ain't working out. Heck that's why he's deteriorating. Also why he desires a REAL body. NOT saying I loved the movie, not at all, but I didn't mind the "return" of Palpatine concept. I just think it was done poorly, but the idea ain;'t bad imo.

Agreed with the above. It would be nice to send all of the sequels into a black hole and never hear or see of them ever again. (Actually I already live my Life like that!)... 🤖

I def agree with that.
 
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Agreed with the above. It would be nice to send all of the sequels into a black hole and never hear or see of them ever again. (Actually I already live my Life like that!)... 🤖
I had such hope after the first one. I really did like it at first. Then the second one...and again, still had some hope, ESPECIALLY when I saw the title for #9. Then I saw ROS...and I realized that they took a billion dollar franchise, with some beloved characters, and ruined the whole thing. And the ones they replaced them with were written poorly, with no cohesive vision.

Collectively, they are 3 different stories, created by people who had no understanding or CARE for the characters or source material. And I did the same thing, I simply pretend that I didn't cry when the opening credits of TFA ran...they are like a bootleg action figure...interesting, but not real.
 
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That one is simple brother....his clones are imperfect. Think Frankenstein. It ain't working out. Heck that's why he's deteriorating. Also why he desires a REAL body. NOT saying I loved the movie, not at all, but I didn't mind the "return" of Palpatine concept. I just think it was done poorly, but the idea ain;'t bad imo.
Or it's in fact a person trying to like it, because it is Star Wars, and trying to find reasons to make the story work for them. lol

If a person has to go to such lengths after the fact to explain so much n order to try and make sense of a movie then doesn't it truly fail?
 
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I've been saying it for years : "It's All EU Now".

As far as I'm concerned, Disney just threw out the old EU and started up a new one.

and Yes! this "New EU" includes "Movies" now too.. (instead of just novels and comic books)...

...but at the end of the day, there's really no difference anymore.

they've said it themselves : it's ALL the "same canon" now. (aka: "It's ALL EU Now").

(not that there's anything wrong with that -- some of that old EU stuff was actually kind of fun). *shrug*




just saying : we shouldn't take their movies so seriously.

according to the New Rules of Disney Canon, these movies bear the EXACT SAME WEIGHT as a novel, or a comic book, after all.

Disney has instructed us, to view their movies, in that EXACT same light.

(and let's face it : nobody REALLY cares about their comic books and novels...

...so WHY should we care about their movies? -- it's ALL the same now, after all -- so who cares?)
 
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That one is simple brother....his clones are imperfect. Think Frankenstein. It ain't working out. Heck that's why he's deteriorating. Also why he desires a REAL body. NOT saying I loved the movie, not at all, but I didn't mind the "return" of Palpatine concept. I just think it was done poorly, but the idea ain;'t bad imo.



I def agree with that.

But even when he sucks the energy out of them and he’s rejuvenated, he’s still old as hell. And he still has the lightning face too even though Mace Windu never shot lightning at this Clone’s face. Like when he sucks the lifeforce out of them and the clone body is fixed for all intents and purposes, shouldn’t it be Palpatine in his prime physical condition? In the EU weren’t the Palpatine clones significantly younger than how he appeared in Return of the Jedi and even Phantom Menace?
 
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For whatever its worth when they first cloned Dolly the sheep, she was an older sheep so the clone had older DNA, (short life) So if you don't have a young DNA sample your options are limited.

Palp's clone bodies were basically DOA.
 
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But even when he sucks the energy out of them and he’s rejuvenated, he’s still old as hell. And he still has the lightning face too even though Mace Windu never shot lightning at this Clone’s face. Like when he sucks the lifeforce out of them and the clone body is fixed for all intents and purposes, shouldn’t it be Palpatine in his prime physical condition? In the EU weren’t the Palpatine clones significantly younger than how he appeared in Return of the Jedi and even Phantom Menace?

Solid points and you may have just defeated my argument. My only counter, my man, is I did kinda take the Mace shooting the lightening back as NOT deforming him but rather what he actually looks like now and just hid it. That that just revealed it. BUT even then, I can already predict the counter argument. Even if true, he wasn't Sith when a kid or born. His deformities started when he joined the Sith. BUT just though, could be a counter to that counter. He's been cloned VIA Sith necromancy. So maybe he would still look deformed? The rules are def. not solid, that's for sure. They rushed this.
 
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Well, he did tell Yoda that he'd been waiting for this moment for a very long time. So he could very well be much older than we assume his is, at least that'd what I always thought, and that he'd been planning this for very long time indeed. I mean at some point he had to assume an identity because people don't just appear from nowhere and begin a political career. Plus who spends a lifetime on a plan to overthrow the Galaxy? Talk about patience. lol

Granted that may all be explained in supplement material that I've never read.
 
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Granted that may all be explained in supplement material that I've never read.

The book "Darth Plagueis" explored the backstory of both Plagueis and Palpatine (although I believe it's "legends" now), stating that Palpatine (not *Sheev* by that time) is just as old as he seems in TPM. Also, Palps inherited a lot of Sith knowledge, planning, wealth, and purpose from his poor deceased master, going way back to Darth Bane.

However, since Disney killed the Old EU, this may all be bogus now, and they will surely invent some new backstory that makes no sense and reduces the importance of Darth Plagueis, because that's what Disney does.
 
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