Palpatine Spirit? We know Anakin has one........

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This has been on my mind awhile now. I did a search for this topic but had no luck.

We all see that at the end of ROTJ Anakin's spirit (both old and new) show up and look on affectionately on Luke as he celebrates with his friends. Now, we know that the ability to cheat death was initially discovered by Qui-Gon Jinn and that he spoke to Yoda about this and Yoda conveyed this message to Obi-Wan (how lame was it that Qui-Gon Jinn was not in ROTS).

So, we know Yoda figures this out as does Ben. Where does Anakin learn it? I know that Palpatine convinced Anakin that if Anakin turned to the dark side, they could have collectively figured out how to cheat death. It is pretty obvious Anakin figured it out. So, how?

With all of that said, doesn't stand to reason that Palpatine also figured it out and despite him taking the big free-fall into DSII he could be "back" in spirit form? I know he has "clones" that come back in the Dark Empire comics (they are crap by the way) but I was wondering what happens to him in terms of his spirit.

Is it conceivable that Palpatine's spirt might be counseling some dark Jedi or potential Sith?
 
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Re: Palpatine Spirit? We know Anakin has one......

can only learn it if your a good guy."learned through compassion not greed"
anakin/vader most likely picked up on it when kenobi vanished after he killed him.

(also qui-gon his former master might have told him in the after life who knows lol)

it's a movie.
 
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I don't offhand recall where I read this, but I believe that the ability to "cheat death" in the way Qui-Gon, and later Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin do by joining the Force yet retaining their own identity, is strictly available to light siders. Achieving spiritual immortality is something than can only be through an understanding of the Will of the Force and by the selfless actions of a Jedi. The Sith, however, in their selfish actions and unnatural use of the Force will never be able to attain this sort of immortality. Whether there is a way to attain physical immortality through unnatural methods (the Dark Side) is unclear, however.
 
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The_Man_with_No_Name said:
I don't offhand recall where I read this, but I believe that the ability to "cheat death" in the way Qui-Gon, and later Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin do by joining the Force yet retaining their own identity, is strictly available to light siders. Achieving spiritual immortality is something than can only be through an understanding of the Will of the Force and by the selfless actions of a Jedi. The Sith, however, in their selfish actions and unnatural use of the Force will never be able to attain this sort of immortality. Whether there is a way to attain physical immortality through unnatural methods (the Dark Side) is unclear, however.
Fair enough. However, that doesn't really address how Anakin was able to have a spirit then. Did Qui-Gon give him a 10 minute crash course on becoming a spirit prior to both Anakin dying and Luke hauling his charcoal butt onto the shuttle and flying away? Was it because Anakin's selfless act of tossing Palpatine down the DS2 trench? If that is the case, shouldn't there be countless other jedi who are spirits based on the merit of some selfless act?

Just asking....hoping to hear more commentary on this subject.
 
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I know years ago there was a theory that Yoda had "saved" Anakin's spirit and brought him to the light. Of course we can say that he had discovered the ability and shielded the knowledge from Palpatine.

While we're on the lines of Qui Gon. I never understood why people complained that he didn't dissapear in TPM when Vade didn't dissapear in ROTJ! I guess people considered vanishing a "light side" ability.
 
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Re: Palpatine Spirit? We know Anakin has one......

It's funny somehow. Anakin turns to the dark side in fear of losing Padmé and redeems himself by acting out of fear of losing his children.

As for the Jedi spirits, Uli Qel-Droma (from Jedi Chronicles) also vanished after his death just like Ben and Yoda did. Ulic was with the dark side during the Sith Wars, but also redeemed himself. He didn't know of his ability, but nonetheless it happened.

So I assume the force not only allows those with knowledge of how to maintain their identity, but also those who don't but made a substancial sacrifice of some sort and/or had a great understanding of the force.
 
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Re: Palpatine Spirit? We know Anakin has one......

Eukalyptus said:
It's funny somehow. Anakin turns to the dark side in fear of losing Padmé and redeems himself by acting out of fear of losing his children.
I don't think this is accurate. He turned to the Dark Side to save Padme for selfish reasons. "I can't live without her."

Saving Luke was a selfless action. He gave up his life for Luke. There's nothing to indicate he was afraid of losing Luke. However, Luke's example in refusing Palpatine's temptations were an example that led Vader back to the true path of the Jedi and following the Will of the Force, not one's own selfish intentions.
 
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Darth_Cain said:
Fair enough. However, that doesn't really address how Anakin was able to have a spirit then. Did Qui-Gon give him a 10 minute crash course on becoming a spirit prior to both Anakin dying and Luke hauling his charcoal butt onto the shuttle and flying away? Was it because Anakin's selfless act of tossing Palpatine down the DS2 trench? If that is the case, shouldn't there be countless other jedi who are spirits based on the merit of some selfless act?
Just by watching the movies, the way I interpret it is that Qui-Gon's funeral pyre somehow aided in his being released into the Force. That's not to say, however, that anyone who was cremated would retain their identity, as Qui-Gon's understanding of the Force also aided him.

Qui-Gon was able to teach the direct route to Yoda, who taught Obi-Wan. However, the only other person we ever see placed on a funeral pyre is Anakin/Vader. It's a nice bookend to the trilogy, and this action frees Anakin's spirit, so to speak, from his body where it is able to join the Force and retain his identity because of his selfless sacrifice and willingness to follow the Will of the Force.

Two other options, but less symbolic:
Anakin, being born of the midichlorians, did not need to "learn" how to join the Force, he simply needed to follow its Will to achieve spirithood.

Either that, or Yoda helped him do it.
 
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I think it's a matter of letting go of ones self. Qui-Gon meditated before he died at the hands of Maul. While it looked as if he was shocked by the lightsaber stab, I'm sure he was prepared for whatever happened, whether he lost and died or won. Obi-Wan also let go of himself when he allowed Vader to strike him down. Yoda was another example of a jedi who let go of himself. Though you could argue he was old and sick as he stated, he was ready to rest and join the force. Now on to Vader...He knew that if he did what he did to Palpatine he would not live. At that point he just let go of everything and his selfless act in saving his son finally gave him a sense of peace. It was at that time he was able to join the force.

That's my take on it and also why the other Jedi were not able to join the force. It's all about letting go...
 
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Re: Palpatine Spirit? We know Anakin has one......

I really like your view on the matter
though it's still inexplicable why Sebastian Shaw's ghost was replaced with the Hayden version.
Don't get me wrong, I like the visual link between the PT and OT, but it's a bit weird he's suddenly young again
 
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Re: Palpatine Spirit? We know Anakin has one......

Rushie said:
I really like your view on the matter
though it's still inexplicable why Sebastian Shaw's ghost was replaced with the Hayden version.
Don't get me wrong, I like the visual link between the PT and OT, but it's a bit weird he's suddenly young again
Lucas' philosophy on this is that when Anakin became Darth Vader (in ROTS), his good, "Jedi-self" ceased to exist. When he was redeemed, his spirit took the form of how he was then ... as if his "good" self never aged from that time. I don't necessarily agree with the change, but I can understand where he's coming from.
 
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Re: Palpatine Spirit? We know Anakin has one......

Yeah, I heard that explanation before and it's acceptable, but Anakin is redeemed before he dies, so naturally he should look like the unmasked Anakin, complete with scarring, as that's what Anakin looks like in his final moments. So both Hayden and Sebastian in ghost form are wrong
 
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Re: Palpatine Spirit? We know Anakin has one......

I think the explanations provided have been good ones. The idea that the jedi have to let go to the force seems reasonable as that would mean they have an inner-peace at death.

However, I can't get beyond what Palpatine said in ROTS about the ability to cheat death has only been achieved by one. That would imply that (at least to me) that Qui-Gon was the only spirit at one time and the only one to figure this all out. Through training and direction, Yoda and Obi-Wan learned of this as well. How did Anakin learn? Like someone said earlier, was he so powerful that he just was able to do it? I am sorry, I can't let that go for some reason.

Additionally, can anyone create a scenario where Darth Sidious returns in the after-life? Sidious was at least as powerful as Yoda (judging by their duel). Plagueis had the ability to prevent the one's he loved from dying (unless Sidious lied which is quite possible). Isn't possible that with what Sidious already learned from Plagueis in combination with Vader and his power that they both found a way to return as spirits?

Because Vader saved Luke and came to peace with that decision before dropping Sidious, that is why he returned as Anakin instead of Vader. Am I clutching at straws here or am I on to something?
 
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Re: Palpatine Spirit? We know Anakin has one......

Darth_Cain said:
I think the explanations provided have been good ones. The idea that the jedi have to let go to the force seems reasonable as that would mean they have an inner-peace at death.

However, I can't get beyond what Palpatine said in ROTS about the ability to cheat death has only been achieved by one. That would imply that (at least to me) that Qui-Gon was the only spirit at one time and the only one to figure this all out. Through training and direction, Yoda and Obi-Wan learned of this as well. How did Anakin learn? Like someone said earlier, was he so powerful that he just was able to do it? I am sorry, I can't let that go for some reason.

Additionally, can anyone create a scenario where Darth Sidious returns in the after-life? Sidious was at least as powerful as Yoda (judging by their duel). Plagueis had the ability to prevent the one's he loved from dying (unless Sidious lied which is quite possible). Isn't possible that with what Sidious already learned from Plagueis in combination with Vader and his power that they both found a way to return as spirits?

Because Vader saved Luke and came to peace with that decision before dropping Sidious, that is why he returned as Anakin instead of Vader. Am I clutching at straws here or am I on to something?
The reason why you don't fully understand is because you believe what Palpatine said in ROTS about cheating death is the same as joining the force. They are both completely different. Cheating death means continuing on in the current life, and joining the force as Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Vader did meant that they died but returned in spirit form.
 
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Re: Palpatine Spirit? We know Anakin has one......

from the Star Wars databank. Hope this helps

Aboard the second Death Star at the Battle of Endor, Anakin Skywalker lay dying. He asked his son to remove his life-sustaining helmet, so that he could look upon his long lost son with his own eyes. Having saved his son's life, and reclaimed his soul from the dark side, Anakin died and became one with the Force. As he shed his corporeal form, he found the spectral forms of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda ready for his return. Through compassion and selflessness, Anakin discovered the secret knowledge of the Shaman of the Whills, a technique that allowed him to retain his identity in the netherworld of the Force.
 
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Re: Palpatine Spirit? We know Anakin has one......

Darth_Chaos said:
Darth_Cain said:
I think the explanations provided have been good ones. The idea that the jedi have to let go to the force seems reasonable as that would mean they have an inner-peace at death.

However, I can't get beyond what Palpatine said in ROTS about the ability to cheat death has only been achieved by one. That would imply that (at least to me) that Qui-Gon was the only spirit at one time and the only one to figure this all out. Through training and direction, Yoda and Obi-Wan learned of this as well. How did Anakin learn? Like someone said earlier, was he so powerful that he just was able to do it? I am sorry, I can't let that go for some reason.

Additionally, can anyone create a scenario where Darth Sidious returns in the after-life? Sidious was at least as powerful as Yoda (judging by their duel). Plagueis had the ability to prevent the one's he loved from dying (unless Sidious lied which is quite possible). Isn't possible that with what Sidious already learned from Plagueis in combination with Vader and his power that they both found a way to return as spirits?

Because Vader saved Luke and came to peace with that decision before dropping Sidious, that is why he returned as Anakin instead of Vader. Am I clutching at straws here or am I on to something?
The reason why you don't fully understand is because you believe what Palpatine said in ROTS about cheating death is the same as joining the force. They are both completely different. Cheating death means continuing on in the current life, and joining the force as Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Vader did meant that they died but returned in spirit form.
Yes, there's really no reason from the movies to believe that Palpatine either was referring to Qui-Gon, or even that he knew what Qui-Gon had done. Palpatine referring to the secret of a physical immortality makes the most sense. He was also trying to sell Anakin on the idea to save Padme ... well, learning the secret of how to join the Force wouldn't do any good, because Anakin wanted to keep Padme alive physically. So Palpatine was either lying entirely about being able to cheat death, or referring to a physical solution.
 
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Darth_Cain said:
Now, we know that the ability to cheat death was initially discovered by Qui-Gon Jinn and that he spoke to Yoda about this and Yoda conveyed this message to Obi-Wan.
Actually, it was initially discovered by an ancient sect of the Jedi known as the Whills, whose teachings Qui-Gon studied. Studying their techniques allowed Qui-Gon to discover the path to retaining one's "self" after death, as opposed to simply merging with the Force.

Darth_Cain said:
With all of that said, doesn't stand to reason that Palpatine also figured it out and despite him taking the big free-fall into DSII he could be "back" in spirit form? I know he has "clones" that come back in the Dark Empire comics (they are crap by the way) but I was wondering what happens to him in terms of his spirit.
What you obviously failed to understand is that those clones of Palpatine in the Dark Empire Trilogy are inhabited by Palpatine's spirit. They are soulless shells that, he claims, he has used numerous times, including during the OT. Referring to his demise on the second Death Star, Palpatine says, "It was not the first time I died ... nor will it be the last! Such are the mysteries of the Dark Side of the Force!"

He goes on to explain: "... Flesh does not easily support this great power! For many years I have been under a dire necessity! My body has decayed again and again ... and each time I have needed to take another ... a humble clone of the man I once was .... The dying is painful ... the transition is not an enjoyable experience. But the suffering is a small price to pay ... for eternal life! After all ... I live primarily as energy ... formlessness ... and power!"

Granted, this is an EU explanation, but honestly, there's no way to answer your question based solely on the films.
 
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Dan_Cziraky said:
What you obviously failed to understand is that those clones of Palpatine in the Dark Empire Trilogy are inhabited by Palpatine's spirit. They are soulless shells that, he claims, he has used numerous times, including during the OT. Referring to his demise on the second Death Star, Palpatine says, "It was not the first time I died ... nor will it be the last! Such are the mysteries of the Dark Side of the Force!"

He goes on to explain: "... Flesh does not easily support this great power! For many years I have been under a dire necessity! My body has decayed again and again ... and each time I have needed to take another ... a humble clone of the man I once was .... The dying is painful ... the transition is not an enjoyable experience. But the suffering is a small price to pay ... for eternal life! After all ... I live primarily as energy ... formlessness ... and power!"
Tell you what I do understand. That the Dark Empire comics are complete and utter CRAP! OBVIOUSLY!

I also understand the error in my ways now. Palpatine wasn't talking about Qui-Gon when he referred to how one was able to cheat death. He was referring to someone else actually being alive or just completely making it up.

Anakin's conversion to spirit-form was a combination of redemption, making peace with himself (and the force) and then Anakin being as powerful as he was leading to his conversion to a spirit despite no real training.

And the consensus seems to be that there is no way or at least not any good explanation for how Palpatine could return either as a spirit or that he actually found a way to cheat death unless EU material is considered. That about sum everything up?
 
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Re: Palpatine Spirit? We know Anakin has one......

Dan, your post makes the Palpatine Clone story sound very cool to me.
I never read the Dark Empire, because I thought it was a very lame story.
But somehow it sounds rather neat to me. Darn, now I HAVE to read it


EDIT: about 'To cheat Death is a Power only one has achieved'
That could simply be Darth Plagueis, sure he wasn't immortal himself as Palpatine killed him. But Plagueis did save his loved ones from death, thus cheating it. I can't think of any other person, EU or canon, who found a way to save people from death.
 
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Darth_Cain said:
Tell you what I do understand. That the Dark Empire comics are complete and utter CRAP! OBVIOUSLY!
No, not "obviously." That's one reason I didn't address your critique of Dark Empire, because I happened to like it. But, arguing taste is pointless, and I simply wanted to address your actual question regarding the feasibility of Palpatine's return as a Force spirit. Again, you can really only address that by way of the EU.

Darth_Cain said:
I also understand the error in my ways now. Palpatine wasn't talking about Qui-Gon when he referred to how one was able to cheat death. He was referring to someone else actually being alive or just completely making it up.
As has already been pointed out, he was referring to his master, Darth Plagueis. While Plagueis could save others from death ("those he loved"), the irony was that he couldn't save himself because of Palpatine's treachery. That is the nature of the Dark Side, and the reason the Sith can never attain true immortality.

Darth_Cain said:
Anakin's conversion to spirit-form was a combination of redemption, making peace with himself (and the force) and then Anakin being as powerful as he was leading to his conversion to a spirit despite no real training.
Somewhere, it's also been said that Obi-Wan and Yoda helped with Anakin's transition to Force spirit.

Darth_Cain said:
And the consensus seems to be that there is no way or at least not any good explanation for how Palpatine could return either as a spirit or that he actually found a way to cheat death unless EU material is considered. That about sum everything up?
Yup. Going back to the EU, Empire's End actually revealed the ultimate fate of all Sith Lords: they merge with the chaotic madness of the Dark Side, spending eternity as "an open wound." This was why Palpatine (in the EU) was so desperate to achieve immortality.
 
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I don't know if someone already said this, but I think it was destroyed, hence the explosion when he was thrown by Vader.
 
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RediNight said:
I don't know if someone already said this, but I think it was destroyed, hence the explosion when he was thrown by Vader.
Or, it could have been his spirit escaping his body and high-tailing to his clone storage facility. Supposedly, Palpatine's spirit was momentarily trapped in the netherworld of the Dark Side after his destruction in the Death Star II. That's why it was a few years before Palpatine resurfaced to claim the remnants of his Empire.
 
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anybody else think that joining with the force is not as mundane as being a glowing spirit that only one force sensative boy in the galaxy can see? and going by EU (as thats all we have until Lucas notices a million off his bank balance) don't obi-wan, yoda and anakin's spirits depart shortly after ROTJ? where'd they go, if not into the force? which would seem to imply that the spirit phase was kind of intermediate, a doorway to truly becoming one with the force; which was barred to palpatine, but his power allowed him to retain his spirit, and channel it back into the living force-or just the material world, whatever.

i think qui-gon knew the power to join the force, before he used it, and likely taught obi-wan (and yoda? he took the wee greeny as apprentice after all) and maybe even anakin. i still think anakin's spirit should have been an old man...and just that; the man anakin would have become, the man he was inside, buried under the mask of vader.
 
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From what I understand of the EU, joining with the Force after death is something that happens to every lifeform, not just Jedi. However, for Jedi with the knowledge to retain their conscious selves, it meant the ability to still influence the lives of those you left behind. This was a skill that could only be taught: not every Jedi would be able to achieve it. Then, it seems, the skill became lost for a few millennia. Force-sensitives known as the Whills rediscovered the knowledge, and it was from the legendary "Journals of the Whills" that Qui-Gon Jinn learned the ability. He was able retain his consciousness, but not a physical form. For the 13 years following his death, Qui-Gon sometimes spoke to Yoda while the Jedi Master was in deep meditation. After the destruction of the Jedi Order, Yoda taught Obi-Wan how to commune with Qui-Gon, so they could both learn the secret. Qui-Gon, as far as we know, did not teach this secret to anyone during his lifetime.

Once again, the EU is our only source of information on what happened to the Force spirits of Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin Skywalker. Roughly five years after the events of ROTJ, Obi-Wan appeared to Luke. He told the young Jedi Master that his ability to retain his indentity within the Force was fading, and he wanted to say his final farewell to him. I'm not sure what the timeframe was, but a few years after ROTJ, when Leia was receiving training in the Force from Luke, the spirit of Anakin appeared to her. He wanted her forgiveness for the atrocities he had committed as Darth Vader -- including torturing her on the Death Star and destroying her adoptive homeworld of Alderaan. Leia was unable to deal with it at the time, however, and spurned the spirit. Yoda's spirit appeared in one issue of Marvel Comics' Star Wars monthly book (issue #92, February 1985, "The Dream"); I'm not sure if the EU has ever dealt with Qui-Gon's spirit.

According to the Dark Empire series, however, Sith Lords are denied joining with the Force. Instead, their spirits become entrapped in the Dark Side, a place of madness and eternal chaos. When Palpatine traveled to the ancient Sith burial grounds on the planet Korriban(sp?), the long-dead Sith Lords trapped there taunted him, asking if he had come to at last take the place of his apprentice, Lord Vader.
 
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Dan_Cziraky said:
I'm not sure what the timeframe was, but a few years after ROTJ, when Leia was receiving training in the Force from Luke, the spirit of Anakin appeared to her. He wanted her forgiveness for the atrocities he had committed as Darth Vader -- including torturing her on the Death Star and destroying her adoptive homeworld of Alderaan. Leia was unable to deal with it at the time, however, and spurned the spirit.
That happened in The Truce at Bakura, didn't it? That story took place pretty much immediately following ROTJ.
 
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Interesting to go back to this thread from 16 years ago now that the sequel trilogy is out and Palpatine reappears (SPOILER ALERT).
 
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A story I read today ironically, says that Lucas had a plan/deleted scene where Yoda & Ben as spirits join Luke's fight in RoTJ. The script specifically says the Sith can't join the other world like the Jedi, but the Emporer says if you come back (from the spirit world) he would easily kill them.

click here for story
 
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I'm not sure why the Sith wouldn't be able to, the Force does not discriminate. Technically just like we Humans here believe, that we all go to the spirit world regardless of being good or bad. So should the Sith.
 
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The point was it was in Lucas' RoTJ script, so anything noted but not used may come up again, s it was part of George's original thinking about how the universe worked. like boba fett the clone, 200+year old wookies & Imperial solder Han. All things not mentioned in the OT but referenced later
 
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I hear that Sith Lords can not become Force Ghosts, which is ironically their ultimate goal. It occurs to me, however, that Anakin is exceptionally powerful with the force and his injuries don’t matter in his death, so he could learn how to become a Force ghost faster than other Jedi like Kenobi and Yoda. I also think that the realm where Yoda goes in S6 of the Clone Wars could be a place beyond time, so he could’ve learned it in what would normally feel like a day or even hours in a second.


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I don't offhand recall where I read this, but I believe that the ability to "cheat death" in the way Qui-Gon, and later Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin do by joining the Force yet retaining their own identity, is strictly available to light siders. Achieving spiritual immortality is something than can only be through an understanding of the Will of the Force and by the selfless actions of a Jedi. The Sith, however, in their selfish actions and unnatural use of the Force will never be able to attain this sort of immortality. Whether there is a way to attain physical immortality through unnatural methods (the Dark Side) is unclear, however.
And yes, it is strictly only available to Jedi or light side force users, while powerful dark side users go to Chaos, which is basically Star Wars’ equivalent of Hell.


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