Palpatine killed Padme

[tjhill2112]

I posted this in another thread but wanted to start another one just to see anyone else's thoughts.

PADME DID NOT GIVE UP THE WILL TO LIVE, PALPATINE KILLED HER! Think about it for a minute. His master learned the secret to use the midichlorians to create life. One basic principle of science is that if it can be created it can be destroyed. By that basic principle if his master could use the midichlorians to create life then he by definition could also use them to destroy life. His master then taught him everything he knew. Palpatine set up the get together for Anakin and Padme in AOTC knowing full well how Anakin felt and what would probably happen, knowing that it would be the stumbling block that he needed to turn him. Then he started feeding him "visions" of Padme dying. Yes HE FED the visions to him. How else did he know to tell Anakin the right sith legend to deal with his problem and when he finally revealed himself he straight out told Anakin that he had the knowledge he needed to save Padme. How did he know about that if he wasn't sending the visions in the first place? Yes he could have read Anakin through the force but this works better as a story so ignore that possiblity for the moment. Now fast forward, Anakin has turned, the jedi or destroyed (so they think), the seperatists are dead who is left to threaten turning Anakin back from the darkside? Padme, she must be eliminated! Well again Anakin plays right into his hands by losing his temper and choking Padme, now he has all the pieces completely in place for the final part of his plan. While Anakin is being rebuilt he is using the midichlorians to kill Padme. The medics can't understand what is going on, there should be nothing wrong with her and medically there isn't so they determine she must have just lost the will to live. While Anakin is having his body sealed in a black suit of armor Palpatine is seeling his fate. Now the threat to Darth Vader's allegiance is gone forever and to make sure to drive the final nail in he LIES to him and tells him that in his anger he killed her. This also explains why he knew she was dead the very moment she died. How else could he have? This one I can't come up with another reason for. It is the only explantion that makes sense. It is just another part of genius that is Palpatine. HE KILLED PADME!

 

[doktornowhere]

No, I don't think so. If he had used midichlorians to kill her, he would have had to use the Force to control them.
You will remember that Yoda and Obi Wan were present at Padme's death. Also remember that during Order 66, we see Yoda reeling from the deaths of the Jedi. All of that Jedi death (or destruction of midi-chlorians) created a huge Disturbance in the Force. And Yoda felt that from disparate places throughout the galaxy...

SO, if Palps was using the Force to kill Padme, in his immediate vicinity Yoda DEFINITELY would have sensed that Dark Side Power. Not only that, but he would have tried (and maybe been successful) in stopping Palpatine, and Leia could actually remember her Mom like she says so in ROTJ without any "force impression" theories popping up.

I wish you were right, 'cause that would have been an awesome scene:

DOC (Polis Massan Machine): We can't find out why, but she's dying.

(cut to Yoda) YODA: (cringing, then a determined stare comes over him) "Palpatine"

(Yoda brings his hands up to the air, a blue glowing field slowly enveloping himself and Padme)

(cut to Palpatine, in the Med Center.) PALPATINE ([censored] his head to one side): "Ehh? No. Yoooddaa"

Palpatine lowers his head in concentration

(cut back to Polis Massa, where Yoda stands at Padme's side)

YODA: (quietly chanting to himself) "The Force is all around us, it moves through us, binds us. There is no death, only the Force"

(cut back to Coruscant Med Center, Palpatine)
2-1B: "Master, the subject is waking."

PALPS: "Goooooddd." With his concentration broken, he decides it will be easier to lie to his apprentice than to fight Yoda in the Force. And Vader might sense his master attacking someone in the force, which would make further complications.

(back to Polis Massa)
MED DROID: She's stabilizing. Her vitals are returning to normal...

AND THEN it all can proceed from there, with the split up of the twins, etc. 'Cept Padme would go live w/Bail and co. as a maid or something for a few years, before finally WASTING AWAY of heartbreak. Something a little more believable than sudden broken heart death.

 

[tjhill2112]

The problem I have with your logic is that Yoda and Obi-Wan could not sense Palpatine as the sith lord when he was right in front of them. They did not sense everything going on from the chancellor's office in the immediate vicinity of the jedi temple. Not to mention Yoda did not know how to control the midichlorians like Palpatine did. I think they eventually figured out what happened, possibly even knowing while it was happening but were powerless against it. When Anakin was killing the Tuskens Yoda could not sense what was happening, just the pain Anakin was feeling. Would it be possible for him to differenciate between the pain and sorrow everyone was feeling at that point to even guess that something else was going on. Not to mention that the main concern they all had was the children. Padme and Obi-Wan, the two closest to Anakin, could not turn him, the only hope for their salvation was the kids and the attention was all on them. I also feel that when Obi-Wan is talking to Luke in ROTJ he is referencing this. He says that "The Emperor knew as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him." I take this to mean that Obi-Wan figured out somewhere down the line that Palpatine killed Padme to keep the baby (didn't know about twins) from being born.

Also Yoda wouldn't fight Palpatine even if he could, he would not want to give away their location. Not to mention for the children's survival they must remain a secret. The genius that Palpatine is he would put two and two together and realize that if Yoda was fighting to keep Padme alive then the children were now in the hands of the jedi and they would have been hunted down mercilously. No matter how much he wanted to fight Palpatine he knew he couldn't give away the only chance they would eventually have.

And another thing, yes Yoda felt the deaths of the jedi in order 66 and Obi-Wan felt the deaths from Alderan. Those were both extremely large scale genocides. I don't equate the death of one "senator from Naboo" to the jedi killed in order 66.

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying to me it is a much more believable and enjoyable plot line.

 

[doktornowhere]

Good points, but with Obi and Yoda (and all the other Masters who hung around in the Chancellor's Office), they were never there (as far as we know) when Palps was actually using the Force .

The thing about not wanting to give away the location, and protect the twins makes sense, but I think that Yoda would try to confront THE representation of the Dark Side as soon as he could. And I'm not too sure about the Force as a Locating Somebody power. Yes, Luke and Leia found each other at the end of ESB, but they are twins

Also, I am not so much thinking that Obi and Yoda would be feeling Padme dying, so much as Palpatine killing her. Again, the Disturbance of that Dark Side Energy coming into the room while they are right there is what I think they would sense.

 

[Dan_Cziraky]

Padme had major physical and mental traumas. Although her physical trauma was treated, her mental trauma was enough to shut down her brain. Dying from losing the will to live has been medically documented. Of course, it most often takes days for this to occur.

I think Palpatine knew Padme would most likely die if Anakin turned to the Dark Side. He knew she was pregnant. He knew sending Anakin off to the Jedi Temple to kill all the Jedi there--including the younglings--would drive a wedge between them that could never be resolved. He also knew that Anakin would never allow her to just leave him. Eventually, it would come down to her death being necessary to ensure Anakin's place amongst the Sith. Because, the only other option was Padme's plea that they just leave. Leave the Empire, leave Coruscant, just go off somewhere together and raise their children in some Outer Rim backwater world. Anakin couldn't do that. He was already so obsessed with power he was plotting to overthrow Palpatine! That's what ultimately killed her, the realization that the man she loved was already dead to her.

 

[Mike_Sidious]

I posted this in another thread but wanted to start another one just to see anyone else's thoughts.

PADME DID NOT GIVE UP THE WILL TO LIVE, PALPATINE KILLED HER! Think about it for a minute. His master learned the secret to use the midichlorians to create life. One basic principle of science is that if it can be created it can be destroyed. By that basic principle if his master could use the midichlorians to create life then he by definition could also use them to destroy life. His master then taught him everything he knew. Palpatine set up the get together for Anakin and Padme in AOTC knowing full well how Anakin felt and what would probably happen, knowing that it would be the stumbling block that he needed to turn him. Then he started feeding him "visions" of Padme dying. Yes HE FED the visions to him. How else did he know to tell Anakin the right sith legend to deal with his problem and when he finally revealed himself he straight out told Anakin that he had the knowledge he needed to save Padme. How did he know about that if he wasn't sending the visions in the first place? Yes he could have read Anakin through the force but this works better as a story so ignore that possiblity for the moment. Now fast forward, Anakin has turned, the jedi or destroyed (so they think), the seperatists are dead who is left to threaten turning Anakin back from the darkside? Padme, she must be eliminated! Well again Anakin plays right into his hands by losing his temper and choking Padme, now he has all the pieces completely in place for the final part of his plan. While Anakin is being rebuilt he is using the midichlorians to kill Padme. The medics can't understand what is going on, there should be nothing wrong with her and medically there isn't so they determine she must have just lost the will to live. While Anakin is having his body sealed in a black suit of armor Palpatine is seeling his fate. Now the threat to Darth Vader's allegiance is gone forever and to make sure to drive the final nail in he LIES to him and tells him that in his anger he killed her. This also explains why he knew she was dead the very moment she died. How else could he have? This one I can't come up with another reason for. It is the only explantion that makes sense. It is just another part of genius that is Palpatine. HE KILLED PADME!

I actually like that theory, very interesting!

 

[Nihilus]

Padme loved Anakin. She could not live knowing that he had killed so many. That is why she lost the will to live.

tjhill2112 had a good point though.

 

[Jeyl]

Padme loved Anakin. She could not live knowing that he had killed so many. That is why she lost the will to live.

Well, after he told her that he had slaughtered an entire village full of men, women and children she seemed to take it alright. But Jedi?

Killing Sandpeople = You're just human
Killing Jedi = How could this have happened? Anakin would never hurt anyone! It's not like him to kill hordes of people! It's so tragic! I just want to die......but there is still good in him!......(flatline)

 

[Arctrooper4043]

The dark side is called "the dark side" because it is both hard to see & evil. tjhill2112,I really like your theory & I think it works really well with the examples you gave.

 

[theadeptjedi]

Killing Sandpeople = You're just human
Killing Jedi = How could this have happened? Anakin would never hurt anyone! It's not like him to kill hordes of people! It's so tragic! I just want to die......but there is still good in him!

Jeyl (and I write this w/ much respect)- sometimes your posts read like you love SW so much because you really, really hate it.

I think there is a big logic gap in the above statement- consider this version:

Killing Sandpeople(who kidnapped and brutalized your mom, again- your mom)= You're just human
Killing Jedi (who saved you from slavery, befriended, trained, and fought and gave their lives loyally beside you during a war)= How could this have happened? Anakin would never hurt anyone! It's not like him to kill hordes of people! It's so tragic! I just want to die......but there is still good in him!......(flatline)

Now, I agree the way that Padme died made no sense whatsoever, but the way you differentiated those two emotive reactions didn't make any sense either...

 

[Nihilus]

Padme loved Anakin. She could not live knowing that he had killed so many. That is why she lost the will to live.

Well, after he told her that he had slaughtered an entire village full of men, women and children she seemed to take it alright. But Jedi?

Killing Sandpeople = You're just human
Killing Jedi = How could this have happened? Anakin would never hurt anyone! It's not like him to kill hordes of people! It's so tragic! I just want to die......but there is still good in him!......(flatline)

And you, my friend, are 100% wrong!

 

[bikerscout]

not saying either of those acts were justified (even though I despise sandpeople to no end for doing what they did) but you must look at the motivation

sandpeople --slaughtered the village out of blind rage for the kidnap, torture & killing of his mother

jedi temple -- following Sidious's orders, so he could eventually learn the Plagueis teachings to save Padme. Remember in Ep2 when he says "someday I'll be the most powerful jedi, have the power keep people from dying"

As far as, Palps killing Padme, that's tough. But I'm gonna say she died on her own accord. Ironic, b/c it happened exactly as Anakin's dream

 

[Jeyl]

Now, I agree the way that Padme died made no sense whatsoever, but the way you differentiated those two emotive reactions didn't make any sense either...

Simply put, they're reactions based on two genocidal acts. And from what I can recount, genocide is serious business and if anyone was to ever commit it, it'd leave an impression on anyone that knew about it. What Anakin did to that camp was just just that. Genocide. The deliberate extermination done through "Guilt by association". And from a moral stand point, that type of action is wrong. Why else would Qui-Gon scream "Anakin! Anakin! No!" during the massacre? Anakin shouldn't be killing!

Since Padme seems to be the kind of character who cherishes life, I find it hard to believe she could not relate these two events together, because they ARE important! If someone you know ever told you that they've killed women and children, that will stick with you forever. The way Padme is surprised by Obi-Wan's revelation that Anakin killed again is so out of character it makes me want to watch Episode One again just to refresh the idea she was once a smart and independent character.

 

[Dan_Cziraky]

The way Padme is surprised by Obi-Wan's revelation that Anakin killed again is so out of character it makes me want to watch Episode One again just to refresh the idea she was once a smart and independent character.

Sure you'll willing to go to that extreme, given your views on the Prequels?

The thing is, Anakin did show some remorse regarding his slaughter of the Sandpeople. He didn't want to hate them. He was appalled that there was that kind of darkness within himself. Plus, taking out your rage against those who just kidnapped, tortured, and left your mother to die is a bit different than the premeditated murder of former comrades and innocent children.

 

[bikerscout]

For hating the prequels so much, he sure does spend a lot of time in these parts. If you hate them, then don't watch them & especially analyze them anymore, it'll only frustrate you! they are done, nothing's going to change them.

 

[Jeyl]

The thing is, Anakin did show some remorse regarding his slaughter of the Sandpeople. He didn't want to hate them.

Ya, in the book.

For hating the prequels so much, he sure does spend a lot of time in these parts. If you hate them, then don't watch them & especially analyze them anymore, it'll only frustrate you! they are done, nothing's going to change them.

I only do it because I love Star Wars so much.

And as for that "they are done, nothing's going to change them." that's not entirely correct. There is not one Star Wars film (with the possible exception of Clone Wars) that Lucas hasn't altered in some way. And with the evidence of Yoda being CGI in Episode I, the changes still look to be on going.

 

[bikerscout]

i meant major changes to the plot and characters

 

[tjhill2112]

Jeyl, not to nitpick but at least so far there has not been one change to ROTS since it was released to theaters.

Now while a little disappointed with the infighting that has started going on (I realize they are all just oppinions) I would like to thank those who have helped add more to my theory without even realizing it. I had forgotten about Padme's last words, "there is still good in him." To me this is even more evidence that she has definitely NOT given up the will to live. She would fight to her dying breath to bring him back to the light side if she believed he was still good inside.

As far as killing Tuskens and killing Jedi there are no comparasons between the two that are fair. Taking revenge on someone for killing your mother and killing your friends and "co-workers" in cold blood are totally different.

Slaughtering Tuskens who had just kidnapped and killed your mother = you are only human.
Slaughtering Jedi who have raised you and taught you everything they know, have made you a galaxy wide hero, and did nothing to you but ask you to spy on a sith lord = he couldn't, Anakin wouldn't do that there must be a mistake.

It makes absolutely perfect sense and is impecable logic. Come up with something else to have a rediculous arguement on if you want anyone to take you seriously.

 

[Jeyl]

Jeyl, not to nitpick but at least so far there has not been one change to ROTS since it was released to theaters.

As Obi-Wan leaves Mustafar, there is a shot of him sitting in the cockpit of Padme's Naboo skiff, with C-3PO sitting next to him. The next shot is of the badly burned Anakin trying to claw his way up the lava bank with his remaining prosthetic arm. In the theatrical version, these shots were separated by a wipe. In the DVD, it is a normal cut.
- imdb.com

And thanks to my love of transitions, I was able to spot this head on since I watched the film six times in the theater and the moment the DVD came out.

And yes, it's a very small change, but a change nonetheless.

 

[Joda76]

Jeyl, not to nitpick but at least so far there has not been one change to ROTS since it was released to theaters.

As Obi-Wan leaves Mustafar, there is a shot of him sitting in the cockpit of Padme's Naboo skiff, with C-3PO sitting next to him. The next shot is of the badly burned Anakin trying to claw his way up the lava bank with his remaining prosthetic arm. In the theatrical version, these shots were separated by a wipe. In the DVD, it is a normal cut.
- imdb.com

And thanks to my love of transitions, I was able to spot this head on since I watched the film six times in the theater and the moment the DVD came out.

And yes, it's a very small change, but a change nonetheless.

Dont know what we would do without you, probably have a better day for starters!!

You have entirly too much time on your hands my friend

 

[Jeyl]

You have entirly too much time on your hands my friend

If there is one comment that I hate more than anything when it comes to stuff people know or do, it's the "You have a lot of/too much/plenty of free/spare time". It makes no sense.

When is there ever a time when a living person doesn't have free time? The only time I know that's not free is the time when we need to sleep, and even there I do it freely. I have a job and I do that job on my free time as well. I don't have to do it, but I choose to do it.

Every second of my life is free time, and I use the best I can, as I'm sure a lot of people here do as well.

 

[Joda76]

You have entirly too much time on your hands my friend

If there is one comment that I hate more than anything when it comes to stuff people know or do, it's the "You have a lot of/too much/plenty of free/spare time". It makes no sense.

When is there ever a time when a living person doesn't have free time? The only time I know that's not free is the time when we need to sleep, and even there I do it freely. I have a job and I do that job on my free time as well. I don't have to do it, but I choose to do it.

Every second of my life is free time, and I use the best I can, as I'm sure a lot of people here do as well.

Now your gonna talk about more things you hate-Im so surprised. Are you happy with anything in life??
Even aged old sayings are wrong to you. Of all I typed in my post is this your only response?
Heres another one you can analyze--
You can think what you want, what ever makes you sleep better at night.

 

[Spiff]

Though the movie doesn't directly support the Palpatine killing Padme plot line (or at least not enough), I really like tjhill2112's theory. I'd personally like to find the best way that she dies that DOESN'T involve simply losing the will to live, whether that be Anakin injured her throat too badly or Palpatine manipulated the Dark Side to kill her, whatever. Anything but what we're supposed to believe in the film!

Padme's last words, "there is still good in him." To me this is even more evidence that she has definitely NOT given up the will to live. She would fight to her dying breath to bring him back to the light side if she believed he was still good inside.

Exactly!

 

[bikerscout]

for a prequel hater - why watch ROTS six times in the theater?? (I only saw it twice) and don't deny that you've bashed ROTS, because you have.

 

[Joda76]

for a prequel hater - why watch ROTS six times in the theater?? (I only saw it twice) and don't deny that you've bashed ROTS, because you have.

I wondered the same. Took him that many times to realize he didnt like it
What a joke--Jeyl its fine to be different and have an opinion but you are something entirely different.

 

[Jeyl]

for a prequel hater - why watch ROTS six times in the theater?? (I only saw it twice) and don't deny that you've bashed ROTS, because you have.

I wondered the same. Took him that many times to realize he didnt like it
What a joke--Jeyl its fine to be different and have an opinion but you are something entirely different.

You want the full details?

TPM - 12 times
AOTC - 9 times
ROTS - 6 times
(Note: All films were seen on their opening day three times)

I only saw ROTS three times in the theater on it's opening day because I had to do it. I saw the other films three times in one day, I wouldn't forgive myself if I didn't do the same.

The reason I saw The Phantom Menace so many times was only for the lightsaber duel at the end. I have never had such an adrenaline rush in a film before that scene took place. That was the #1 thing I remembered about The Phantom Menace that I really really loved. Pure win.

For Attack of the Clones, well, I had a lot of friends who wanted to see it so I took them. The only problem with doing that was that I had to tell them to duck and cover when Padme and Anakin profess their love for each other before the big arena action sequence. I've never felt more uncomfortable around people while that scene played. I just couldn't watch it! Although, I do remember the "Take the one on the left, I'll take the one on the right." line before it was changed.

For Revenge of the Sith? The only factor I could watch over and over again was the beating drums in the opening space battle. After that, the film didn't appease. I remember thinking that the whole point of the film was building up for Anakin and Obi-Wan's duel, but there were so may lightsaber battles before theirs that it kind of felt over used and stale. It took till the second watch to know how horribly bad Vader's "Noooo!" delivery was. However, that line is nothing compared to that stupid robot dialogue about Padme's condition. The more I heard "She has lost the will to live", the more I started to not like Star Wars in general. However, I bought the DVD because the only real genuine laugh I ever got out of the whole movie was when Grievous says Dooku's name in the most exaggerated way imaginable. Always gets a laugh from me and my friends.

 

[Joda76]

for a prequel hater - why watch ROTS six times in the theater?? (I only saw it twice) and don't deny that you've bashed ROTS, because you have.

I wondered the same. Took him that many times to realize he didnt like it
What a joke--Jeyl its fine to be different and have an opinion but you are something entirely different.

You want the full details?

TPM - 12 times
AOTC - 9 times
ROTS - 6 times
(Note: All films were seen on their opening day three times)

I only saw ROTS three times in the theater on it's opening day because I had to do it. I saw the other films three times in one day, I wouldn't forgive myself if I didn't do the same.

The reason I saw The Phantom Menace so many times was only for the lightsaber duel at the end. I have never had such an adrenaline rush in a film before that scene took place. That was the #1 thing I remembered about The Phantom Menace that I really really loved. Pure win.

For Attack of the Clones, well, I had a lot of friends who wanted to see it so I took them. The only problem with doing that was that I had to tell them to duck and cover when Padme and Anakin profess their love for each other before the big arena action sequence. I've never felt more uncomfortable around people while that scene played. I just couldn't watch it! Although, I do remember the "Take the one on the left, I'll take the one on the right." line before it was changed.

For Revenge of the Sith? The only factor I could watch over and over again was the beating drums in the opening space battle. After that, the film didn't appease. I remember thinking that the whole point of the film was building up for Anakin and Obi-Wan's duel, but there were so may lightsaber battles before theirs that it kind of felt over used and stale. It took till the second watch to know how horribly bad Vader's "Noooo!" delivery was. However, that line is nothing compared to that stupid robot dialogue about Padme's condition. The more I heard "She has lost the will to live", the more I started to not like Star Wars in general. However, I bought the DVD because the only real genuine laugh I ever got out of the whole movie was when Grievous says Dooku's name in the most exaggerated way imaginable. Always gets a laugh from me and my friends.

Still dont know why you go see it 6 times If you didnt like it.
So should we call you a sheeple too!?

Gotta agree with the Padme/Anakin Dialogue being bad. Could have been the delivery of the lines but nevertheless its way corny.
Ive never heard anyone complain of too many lightsaber battles. They were battles that had to be done. That didnt bother me. I loved all the duels!!
Your giving me tidbits of things you dont like, if those few things mess up the entire movie for you then maybe you shouldnt like the OT as much as you do seeing all the mess ups in those. That fan edit you like so much proves that.

I still think the force choke Anakin used is what killed Padme. The line used for the reason was pretty weak but not enough for me not to like SW in general like you say.

You bought the DVD cause of a laugh you get from the way grievous said Dooku?? Seriously Jeyl?

I need a minute......

 

[Nihilus]

for a prequel hater - why watch ROTS six times in the theater?? (I only saw it twice) and don't deny that you've bashed ROTS, because you have.

I wondered the same. Took him that many times to realize he didnt like it
What a joke--Jeyl its fine to be different and have an opinion but you are something entirely different.

You want the full details?

TPM - 12 times
AOTC - 9 times
ROTS - 6 times
(Note: All films were seen on their opening day three times)

WTF?

You are

 

[Jeyl]

Your giving me tidbits of things you dont like, if those few things mess up the entire movie for you then maybe you shouldnt like the OT as much as you do seeing all the mess ups in those. That fan edit you like so much proves that.

There are two edits on that link I made. Adywan's edit, and the purest edition which removes all of the major changes he made.

Still dont know why you go see it 6 times If you didnt like it.

There's your problem Joda. You're thinking of me in the present day seeing these films, not the me that saw them years ago. I liked the prequels more back then than I do today. Sometimes you'll like something one day, and later you'll probably think differently.

 

[Joda76]

Your giving me tidbits of things you dont like, if those few things mess up the entire movie for you then maybe you shouldnt like the OT as much as you do seeing all the mess ups in those. That fan edit you like so much proves that.

There are two edits on that link I made. Adywan's edit, and the purest edition which removes all of the major changes he made.

Still dont know why you go see it 6 times If you didnt like it.

There's your problem Joda. You're thinking of me in the present day seeing these films, not the me that saw them years ago. I liked the prequels more back then than I do today. Sometimes you'll like something one day, and later you'll probably think differently.

Ok then can we have that Jeyl in this present day??

What made you stop liking them? The few points you gave above? I feel like Im interviewing you!!

 

[Jeyl]

Ok then can we have that Jeyl in this present day??

No. You're just going to have to live with this "Greedo shoots first" edition of Jeyl.

What made you stop liking them?

A number of things.

1. Quality material. The prequel trilogy has bad acting, writing and directing. It all felt artificial. Sure movies are fake, but they should be convincing.

2. Defying the very meaning of making a prequel. Prequels are usually coined in to tell a story on what happened before another story that already took place. Unfortunately that was not the prequels' sole purpose. They didn't just tell a story about what happened before the original trilogy, they re-imagined it. They took all the important elements and structured it in a way to make you think more about the prequel elements rather than the original trilogy elements. Boba Fett's voice is a big example of this, because Lucas doesn't want you to look at Boba Fett as his own character, but as a clone of Jango, a character that Lucas solely created. Would it not have been better to modify the voice of Jango's helmet to sound more like Boba rather then vice versa? You're not telling a prequel story if you change the details. Sure you may say the story and characters are still the same, but than I would to ask "Then why even bother?".

3. Lucas being a bully. Fans asked for the unaltered editions on DVD ever since the format was created and all we got was a stupid "Laser Disc" quality presentation of some of the most important films in the history of cinema. Not only were fans mocked by Lucas' team, but Lucas didn't take part in this release at all in any way shape or form other than to make sure it deliberately look and sound inferior to the current DVDs. The biggest "bully" moment that crossed the line for me came from Lucasarts saying that the first Knights of the Old Republic game character you play is male. Not a bright move. When I say that, I'm not saying they should have made the character female (Although that would have been 100% more original and the twist more unpredictable), but if the game is about interactivity and choices, let the player decide!

4. Hayden in RotS. Yes, I know. The light side of Anakin died in RotS (?) and that the force brought him back to the way he looked before he was bad (?). Lucas took a line that was meant to hide the full truth from Luke and made it literal even after Obi-Wan stated it was "a certain point of view". Also, Anakin's spirit that Luke saw in the originals was the Anakin that Luke saved, not the Anakin before Luke was born. The younger Anakin has nothing to do with Luke. This was supposed to be an epiphany for Anakin when he turns on the emperor, not a moment where he's back to his younger self. His younger self wasn't even that "light sided" to begin with!

5. Baiting fans. The Phantom Menace I think is the best of the prequels because it tried to introduce a lot of new elements, characters and themes into the saga. While it didn't work on some levels, the effort is there. When AotC came out, all that was completely shelved. What we are introduced to is what I like to call "Fan baiting" territory where Lucas takes (from my perspective) an over hyped minor character from the original trilogy and tries to exploit it to it's fullest. How? He makes an entire army of Boba Fetts! Lucas knows fans love Boba Fett, so he takes what works for the fans and just paints every corner of the movies with it.

6. Stuck. Being trapped in time sucks. All Marty ever wanted was to return home to the present so he wouldn't live in the past. That's the way I feel with the prequels because even though their purpose is now complete, we're still in it! Even with this proposes live action series, it still takes place before the original trilogy. Why should we be stuck here? Saying that there are a ton of stories to tell doesn't mean anything because the same can be said about the original trilogy. Heck, even after the original trilogy! But no, we're happy with more clones of Boba Fett. Sorry, but I'm bored with Clones.

7. LET IT DIE. Let it go would have been a better term, but honestly, when you have Boba Fett still kicking it in high gear at the ripe old age of 77 or something, you know you're not only not letting it go, you're flat out desperate. At least when Gene Roddenberry made Star Trek: The Next Generation, he didn't rely on the characters of the original series. Sure, some made brief appearances, but that was it. The story was all about the new generation. This Legacy of the Force has some interesting characters like Jaina Solo, Ben Skywalker and a bunch of others, but the original trilogy characters are still doing their thing! Let the next generation have their go already. By the time all the original trilogy characters die the EU characters will probably be well into their 80s. Yeesh.

8. Not being original. One of my biggest hopes for the Star Wars legacy comics was that it would finally introduce a whole slew of elements into the Star Wars legacy so we could in essence have a new beginning with new characters with a clean slate. WRONG. Not only is the main character a male hot tempered Skywalker who struggles with the light side and dark side, but we also have a villain who, rather than be a new character, comes from the freaking CLONE WARS. Not only does the Legacy story reference a ton of original trilogy/prequel trilogy moments, it relies on them in order to keep the story going. Why doesn't anyone just ask "Why don't we write a story about a hero who isn't a skywalker or has anything to do with the movie characters?".

9. Star Wars needs more women. Here's one element that the prequel trilogy brought from the original trilogy that I wish it didn't. The female roles go from strong to out right weak as both trilogies progress in their stories. Leia goes from a strong capable leader in the first Star Wars movie to an object of Han's affection and nothing more by the time Empire and Jedi are released. Padme goes from a committed queen who would risk her life to save her entire planet to a hopeless romantic who would sooner lose the will to live due to her husband being mean than being their for her newly born kids. It's weak. And while I'm at it, it's kind of sad that there isn't a stronger female presence in general considering the new stories that are happening. It just hurts that when I play KotOR* that I have to be reminded that my female character is actually a male character in reality. Well, bite me Star Wars reality. It's as fictitious as your so called "canon" part.

I could go on, but I'm in the realm on Blondie as it is with it's long length already. So I'll leave it at this. It's not one element that left Star Wars cold for me, but several elements that I just find silly and unfortunate.

*Yes, they did say that the KotOR II player character was female, but who remembers "The Exile" in any Star Wars lore? It's not even a fair throw away because the game isn't even a finished product.

 

[Jeyl]

Sigh.

I think I'm going to do everyone here a favor and take a week off of Rebelscum.com. Nothing down beat about it, but last night was just.....bad. We don't need that.

 

[Nihilus]

I think I'm going to take a week off of Rebelscum.com.

Thank you God!!!!!!!!!

 

[Joda76]

As much as I hate to admit it, that was Jeyls best posts that Ive read.
You do bring up some great points. I dont agree with you on all of it but it makes sense. I know you catch alot of heat on here and Ive even given you some but I think its all about how you put things and if you have anything positive to bring to the table. I still think you take it overboard but you have to like something alot to be that critical of something. I know your a fan that wants SW to be the best Saga ever and you dont feel that its living up to its legend!! Maybe you should expect less of it and take it in a little different.
Not trying to tell you what to do but maybe you should take some time off. Not saying to change who you are but present it a different way.

 

[tjhill2112]

Ok then can we have that Jeyl in this present day??

No. You're just going to have to live with this "Greedo shoots first" edition of Jeyl.

What made you stop liking them?

A number of things.

1. Quality material. The prequel trilogy has bad acting, writing and directing. It all felt artificial. Sure movies are fake, but they should be convincing.

2. Defying the very meaning of making a prequel. Prequels are usually coined in to tell a story on what happened before another story that already took place. Unfortunately that was not the prequels' sole purpose. They didn't just tell a story about what happened before the original trilogy, they re-imagined it. They took all the important elements and structured it in a way to make you think more about the prequel elements rather than the original trilogy elements. Boba Fett's voice is a big example of this, because Lucas doesn't want you to look at Boba Fett as his own character, but as a clone of Jango, a character that Lucas solely created. Would it not have been better to modify the voice of Jango's helmet to sound more like Boba rather then vice versa? You're not telling a prequel story if you change the details. Sure you may say the story and characters are still the same, but than I would to ask "Then why even bother?".

3. Lucas being a bully. Fans asked for the unaltered editions on DVD ever since the format was created and all we got was a stupid "Laser Disc" quality presentation of some of the most important films in the history of cinema. Not only were fans mocked by Lucas' team, but Lucas didn't take part in this release at all in any way shape or form other than to make sure it deliberately look and sound inferior to the current DVDs. The biggest "bully" moment that crossed the line for me came from Lucasarts saying that the first Knights of the Old Republic game character you play is male. Not a bright move. When I say that, I'm not saying they should have made the character female (Although that would have been 100% more original and the twist more unpredictable), but if the game is about interactivity and choices, let the player decide!

4. Hayden in RotS. Yes, I know. The light side of Anakin died in RotS (?) and that the force brought him back to the way he looked before he was bad (?). Lucas took a line that was meant to hide the full truth from Luke and made it literal even after Obi-Wan stated it was "a certain point of view". Also, Anakin's spirit that Luke saw in the originals was the Anakin that Luke saved, not the Anakin before Luke was born. The younger Anakin has nothing to do with Luke. This was supposed to be an epiphany for Anakin when he turns on the emperor, not a moment where he's back to his younger self. His younger self wasn't even that "light sided" to begin with!

5. Baiting fans. The Phantom Menace I think is the best of the prequels because it tried to introduce a lot of new elements, characters and themes into the saga. While it didn't work on some levels, the effort is there. When AotC came out, all that was completely shelved. What we are introduced to is what I like to call "Fan baiting" territory where Lucas takes (from my perspective) an over hyped minor character from the original trilogy and tries to exploit it to it's fullest. How? He makes an entire army of Boba Fetts! Lucas knows fans love Boba Fett, so he takes what works for the fans and just paints every corner of the movies with it.

6. Stuck. Being trapped in time sucks. All Marty ever wanted was to return home to the present so he wouldn't live in the past. That's the way I feel with the prequels because even though their purpose is now complete, we're still in it! Even with this proposes live action series, it still takes place before the original trilogy. Why should we be stuck here? Saying that there are a ton of stories to tell doesn't mean anything because the same can be said about the original trilogy. Heck, even after the original trilogy! But no, we're happy with more clones of Boba Fett. Sorry, but I'm bored with Clones.

7. LET IT DIE. Let it go would have been a better term, but honestly, when you have Boba Fett still kicking it in high gear at the ripe old age of 77 or something, you know you're not only not letting it go, you're flat out desperate. At least when Gene Roddenberry made Star Trek: The Next Generation, he didn't rely on the characters of the original series. Sure, some made brief appearances, but that was it. The story was all about the new generation. This Legacy of the Force has some interesting characters like Jaina Solo, Ben Skywalker and a bunch of others, but the original trilogy characters are still doing their thing! Let the next generation have their go already. By the time all the original trilogy characters die the EU characters will probably be well into their 80s. Yeesh.

8. Not being original. One of my biggest hopes for the Star Wars legacy comics was that it would finally introduce a whole slew of elements into the Star Wars legacy so we could in essence have a new beginning with new characters with a clean slate. WRONG. Not only is the main character a male hot tempered Skywalker who struggles with the light side and dark side, but we also have a villain who, rather than be a new character, comes from the freaking CLONE WARS. Not only does the Legacy story reference a ton of original trilogy/prequel trilogy moments, it relies on them in order to keep the story going. Why doesn't anyone just ask "Why don't we write a story about a hero who isn't a skywalker or has anything to do with the movie characters?".

9. Star Wars needs more women. Here's one element that the prequel trilogy brought from the original trilogy that I wish it didn't. The female roles go from strong to out right weak as both trilogies progress in their stories. Leia goes from a strong capable leader in the first Star Wars movie to an object of Han's affection and nothing more by the time Empire and Jedi are released. Padme goes from a committed queen who would risk her life to save her entire planet to a hopeless romantic who would sooner lose the will to live due to her husband being mean than being their for her newly born kids. It's weak. And while I'm at it, it's kind of sad that there isn't a stronger female presence in general considering the new stories that are happening. It just hurts that when I play KotOR* that I have to be reminded that my female character is actually a male character in reality. Well, bite me Star Wars reality. It's as fictitious as your so called "canon" part.

I could go on, but I'm in the realm on Blondie as it is with it's long length already. So I'll leave it at this. It's not one element that left Star Wars cold for me, but several elements that I just find silly and unfortunate.

*Yes, they did say that the KotOR II player character was female, but who remembers "The Exile" in any Star Wars lore? It's not even a fair throw away because the game isn't even a finished product.

I agree completely with some of your points and couldn't disagree more with others so I'll just take it one at a time.

1. Bad direction I agree, I think the acting and story were really terrific. Hayden and Natalie are widely dumped upon and don't deserve it at all. They are what the characters are supposed to be. But no matter how you feel about the acting I don't understand thinking the stories were bad. Possibly it is because I read the novels that I feel more insight but I think the storyline couldn't be better.

2. Don't understand the prequel not being a prequel comment. It did tell the story of how the empire was formed and how Anakin turned from a normal kid into Darth Vader. I did however have the exact same thought that they should have had Jeremy Bulloch do the voice of Jango in the helmet instead of the other way around.

3. I don't know that I would call Lucas a "bully" but I completely agree with the arguement that good quality DVD's of the unaltered movies should be available, not just for the OT but the PT as well.

4. Hayden in ROTJ. This I completely disagree with you. There are two ways they could go to work storywise for me. Either Hayden is there as Anakin "died" when he was "consumed" by Darth Vader or Sabastian Shaw needs to be altered to be scarred as he appeared when the helmet came off. He also would need his arms and legs removed.

5. Boba Fett army, I really have no feeling one way or another on this issue. I always thought that Boba was a EXTREMELY overrated character. That said this doesn't bother me near as much as him hanging out with Jabba in ANH. There have to be clones for the clone wars to happen so Jango is as good as anyone else to create them from. Yes they could have come up with a completely new character, but while possibly the lazy way to go why not show where the clones and Boba Fett came from. I took it as nod to the fans not "baiting."

6. I couldn't agree more! I would so much rather have a new movie (animated or live action) of the New Jedi Order or something else AFTER ROTJ.

7. I again couldn't agree more! We killed off Chewbacca and some other second tier characters but come on Han, Luke, Leia all still kicking while Jacen Solo, Anakin Solo, Mara Jade have bitten the dust.... come on!

8. I have no comment as I don't read the comics.

9. As far as the movies go I agree there should be more women, Ahsoka in the CW is a move in the right direction. I do think the novels are going the right way, they have soooooo many more strong females than the movies did.

 

[Spiff]

I've also gotta give props to Jeyl in this thread.

Dude, that was your most intelligent and well thought out presentation of all (or most) of your gripes with the present-day Star Wars. It had a hint of sadness to it, not just overly jaded or self-indulgent.... which is how your comments sometimes come across (and are received by certain members).

I actually agree with most of your points. My overall feel is that the prequel trilogy, and all the EU stuff centred around it (enongh with the clones already!!) just barely failed to meet its potential. More of Anakin the "best star pilot in the galaxy", more explicit showings of his Force abilities as the Chosen One, better death scene for Padme, more - or at least some - involvement on Alderaan, etc. Having said that, i still immensely enjoyed it and its shortcomings don't bother me quite as much as they bother you, but it was nice to see you organize your overall displeasure in a very non-condecsending fashion.

And though i don't lose any sleep over this, the OT on DVD without any recent tampering would be very, very, very nice.

 

[Tim_McShane]

As far as killing Tuskens and killing Jedi there are no comparasons between the two that are fair. Taking revenge on someone for killing your mother and killing your friends and "co-workers" in cold blood are totally different.

That might hold true for any average Joe off the street. Not so for Jedi. Both acts are abominations under the Jedi code. In fact, one could argue that by the Jedi worldview, killing the Tuskens was the greater violation, as it was born of attachment.

 

[tjhill2112]

As far as killing Tuskens and killing Jedi there are no comparasons between the two that are fair. Taking revenge on someone for killing your mother and killing your friends and "co-workers" in cold blood are totally different.

That might hold true for any average Joe off the street. Not so for Jedi. Both acts are abominations under the Jedi code. In fact, one could argue that by the Jedi worldview, killing the Tuskens was the greater violation, as it was born of attachment.

I agree to an extenet, my comment was in the context of Padme's reaction. They both are violations of the jedi code but I have trouble seeing the jedi having more problems with Anakin having attachments than killing their fellow jedi. However both violations were born from attachments, Tusken slaughter=attachment to mother, Jedi slaughter=attachment to Padme.

 

[Tim_McShane]

I have trouble seeing the jedi having more problems with Anakin having attachments than killing their fellow jedi.

Study Buddhism. It'll give you some insight on the sanctity of life that the Jedi uphold. Killing Tuskens or killing jedi is still killing--the Jedi wouldn't hold the lives of their own above the lives of others, Tusken or otherwise.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font>

However both violations were born from attachments, Tusken slaughter=attachment to mother, Jedi slaughter=attachment to Padme.

[/QUOTE]

Not really--the killing of the Tuskens was the direct result of Anakin's loss of his mother. Killing the jedi was on the command of his new Master, to achieve a particular aim; Anakin acted selflessly (in that he had nothing personal to gain) in carrying out the order, just as any Jedi ought in carrying out the direction of his master. Now, you could argue one step removed, that the reason he committed himself to Palps was to save Padme--but the story sure didn't play that Anakin's thought pattern was, "If I kill all the students at the Jedi temple, Padme will live..."

 

[tjhill2112]

The problem I have with your arguement is that Palpatine told Anakin only by killing the jedi would he be strong enough in the dark side to save Padme. He didn't act selflessly, he did it to gain the power to save Padme. The time he had nothing to gain was when he killed the Tuskens. As far as the jedi's view of life I agree, I meant to say that they would not view attachments as badly as killing the Tuskens or fellow jedi. I just missed getting my entire thought down.