Palitoy Vinyl Cape Jawa MOC

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What is the consensus on Palitoy Vinyl Cape Jawa? Real or Fake? I received notification today from a friend of an auction for a Palitoy Vinyl Cape Jawa MOC. I have the html link but did not post it here because I don't know if it is a fake, though I am skeptical. The headline reads;
" 'Holy Grail' of Star Wars figures goes up for auction: Rare 'Jawa' toy which sold for 99p in 1978 now worth up to £12,000"
The article also says that only one of these has been authenticated by AFA. Is this true? The one in this auction is not AFA authenticated.
 
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If it's the one at Vectis, I believe that the bubble has some slight crushing, but they (auction company) have put their reputation behind the credibility of it, but for some odd reason won't AFA it... o-o
 
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How can Vectis AFA it if they don't own it? Also, didnt AFA say that they wouldn't grade another Palitoy Jawa? It's rumoured that 3 of these exist and probably 2 more in a private collection (s).
the problem appears to be tat a known scammer has had at least 2 of these in his possession at some point. There are multiple people from the UK who swear blind that they had Palitoy VCJ as children.
 
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How can Vectis AFA it if they don't own it? Also, didnt AFA say that they wouldn't grade another Palitoy Jawa? It's rumoured that 3 of these exist and probably 2 more in a private collection (s).
the problem appears to be tat a known scammer has had at least 2 of these in his possession at some point. There are multiple people from the UK who swear blind that they had Palitoy VCJ as children.
Well, it's on consignment to Vectis, but they posted about it on the vintage Star Wars page on Facebook and it was a pretty lengthy thread, where one of the employees was telling the story behind it. I'm having trouble finding it, but will post it if I come across it. I guess they could use UGK, but I would think an auction house the size of this one would have to be pretty sure of the authenticity to put their reputation behind it. I, for one, don't understand the hoopla over Palitoy, Toltoys, and all the other foreign distributors, but more power to anyone willing to spend $12,000 on a carded figure with a different brand on it...
 
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I've been on the Vectis webpage and seen images of this piece but it doesn't seem to say any estimate. Can someone please point me in the direction of where this piece is said to be worth £12,000. Thank you.
 
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The thread with comments from Kathy is on my facebook group:-

http://www.facebook.com/groups/vintagestarwarsactionfigures/

The post is by Ollie Wood and starts with a picture and bit about a Kenner VCJ (Kathy kinda thread jacked to start talking about the latest palitoy VCJ one)

I get the impression that Vectis are not going to attempt any bubble repair on the crushed bubble (which I believe may be possible using the gap in the bottom to insert, say tweezers, to push the bubble back out from the inside out) or to have it graded. Vectis have said it is 100% authentic and I and other notable Palitoy collectors cannot find any fault with the detailed pictures that been supplied by Vectis.

Can't recall AFA saying that they wouldn't grade another one, why would they say that?

Any other questions, just keep them coming.

cheers Jason
 
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How can Vectis AFA it if they don't own it? Also, didnt AFA say that they wouldn't grade another Palitoy Jawa? It's rumoured that 3 of these exist and probably 2 more in a private collection (s).
the problem appears to be tat a known scammer has had at least 2 of these in his possession at some point. There are multiple people from the UK who swear blind that they had Palitoy VCJ as children.
You Sir are exactly correct. Nobody can answer this question. The scammer had two of these in his possession which brings up the assumption that he made them himself. He was aware of the rarity of these so why not make some. He made reproduction 12 back Palitoy MOCS before and tried to pass them off. So for a few years he was not heard from for a while and then.... these have all started to surface and show up in private collections. He is probably laughing it up right now.

Now if there are 2 or 5 more in private collections....it would be nice to know where these came from....or if they even exist. This is all word of mouth right now and nothing is legit.

I for one would like to believe this and would love to think that they are real....this would be great for the SW Vintage collecting community. More so for the Palitoy fans. The problem is you have way to many fingers are pointed towards at scammer. Let's not forget about all this. The auction house won't even elaborate on the story on where they got the MOCS from. LOL.

As far as the UKers that owned one as a child...prove it. Let's see a Christmas, holiday, or birthday picture as a child with the piece in question.


Did AFA really say they would not grade another one? Not sure about that one....
 
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You Sir are exactly correct. Nobody can answer this question. The scammer had two of these in his possession which brings up the assumption that he made them himself. He was aware of the rarity of these so why not make some. He made reproduction 12 back Palitoy MOCS before and tried to pass them off. So for a few years he was not heard from for a while and then.... these have all started to surface and show up in private collections. He is probably laughing it up right now.

Now if there are 2 or 5 more in private collections....it would be nice to know where these came from....or if they even exist. This is all word of mouth right now and nothing is legit.

I for one would like to believe this and would love to think that they are real....this would be great for the SW Vintage collecting community. More so for the Palitoy fans. The problem is you have way to many fingers are pointed towards at scammer. Let's not forget about all this. The auction house won't even elaborate on the story on where they got the MOCS from. LOL.

As far as the UKers that owned one as a child...prove it. Let's see a Christmas, holiday, or birthday picture as a child with the piece in question.


Did AFA really say they would not grade another one? Not sure about that one....
Where are you getting your info from about 2 of these being from the same scammer?

Here are the MOCs known to date:-

1) The infamous Torres example that has been doing the rounds for years. This was bought and AFA graded 75 by Richard Horsley this year and sold to an anonymous UK collector. (The ebay auction at £11,300 was won by a 0 feedback buyer so is likely to have been a non paying winner.)

2) The Gary Kurtz/Jason Joiner one seen at Elstree Empire Day last year. Came from the collection of a photographer (along with a bunch of other 12 backs) who photographed toys back in the day.

3) The Vectis example seen in the last month. The seller bought it along with 3 other 12 back palitoy from an antiques fair relatively cheaply in the UK.

4) and possibly 5). Held in private collections in the UK. No further info on these other than one is confirmed.

cheers Jason
 
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Where are you getting your info from about 2 of these being from the same scammer?

Here are the MOCs known to date:-

1) The infamous Torres example that has been doing the rounds for years. This was bought and AFA graded 75 by Richard Horsley this year and sold to an anonymous UK collector. (The ebay auction at £11,300 was won by a 0 feedback buyer so is likely to have been a non paying winner.)

2) The Gary Kurtz/Jason Joiner one seen at Elstree Empire Day last year. Came from the collection of a photographer (along with a bunch of other 12 backs) who photographed toys back in the day.

3) The Vectis example seen in the last month. The seller bought it along with 3 other 12 back palitoy from an antiques fair relatively cheaply in the UK.

4) and possibly 5). Held in private collections in the UK. No further info on these other than one is confirmed.

cheers Jason
1) Who sold Richard this piece?

3) Too bad we can't know more about this story. I wonder what the sellers name is. Maybe we can find out after the auction.

Thanks for chiming in Jason. :)

Matt
 
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1) Who sold Richard this piece?

3) Too bad we can't know more about this story. I wonder what the sellers name is. Maybe we can find out after the auction.

Thanks for chiming in Jason. :)

Matt
Not sure, we know its the Torres one from years ago. Been through at least one set of hands since him, probably more.

cheers Jason
 
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I'm confused but it doesn't take much these days to do that to me :)

So am I correct in thinking that there are very good fakes of this VC Jawa on a Palitoy card out there and that this could be one? I must admit that the lack of provenance from the auction house is worrying. Can't understand why the seller wouldn't give as much info as is possible to support the figure.

Jason you mention that apparently it was purchased with other carded figures at an antiques fair. Did you get this info from Vectis or do you know the seller? If this is the case why aren't Vectis making mention of it?

I don't doubt what is being said but I must admit to finding the antique fair story a bit hard to swallow. I can't believe (knowing UK antique fairs as well as I do) that such a batch of figures would be found and sold cheaply at such a place.
 
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I'm confused but it doesn't take much these days to do that to me :)

So am I correct in thinking that there are very good fakes of this VC Jawa on a Palitoy card out there and that this could be one? I must admit that the lack of provenance from the auction house is worrying. Can't understand why the seller wouldn't give as much info as is possible to support the figure.

Jason you mention that apparently it was purchased with other carded figures at an antiques fair. Did you get this info from Vectis or do you know the seller? If this is the case why aren't Vectis making mention of it?

I don't doubt what is being said but I must admit to finding the antique fair story a bit hard to swallow. I can't believe (knowing UK antique fairs as well as I do) that such a batch of figures would be found and sold cheaply at such a place.
Tri,
You are hitting the nail right on the head with what you have said. The piece that was AFA graded along with another VC Jawa Palitoy used to be owned by a known vintage MOC counterfeiter. I am not sure if others are out there yet....but if this pieces sells for a high price....then he will probably make some more and pass them off.

I agree with you about the antique fair. Which fair was this found at? The UK is not a big place and I am sure alot of SW vintage collectors make sure to make it to these trunk sales all the time. Yes these pieces can be found but....in great condition and as rare as this......not so much. Only 5 known in the world? I would think there would have been more made and found if these are legit.

Lastly....I know auction houses at times keep things private...but a piece like this need authentication. It probably won't happen because they have no idea what they are doing with the VC Jawa. When great painting are auctioned off they support the piece with past owners and such.

Jason,
Thank you for the answers....there is still some grey area though that has not been answered.


Just noticed there was a crack. Fail!
 
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Torres is a vile scammer,who I'm sure reads these and other forums....he scammed me years ago with some awful C-5 carded figures(note I didn't say MOC....they were far from mint!!!)that were solid C9s(he said)

Camera not working(he said)but don't worry they are all great....I took a leap of faith and got screwed. I have to say...Mr.Torres was responsible for turning me onto AFA such was the extent of the scam(about 20 figures)

if the Jawa that is currently slabbed did originate from him...as much as it appears to be legit I'd be very worried about its provenance.

Of course I could be wrong,but from none confirmed to 5 on the go it appears they are suddenly highly visible after there being strong doubt over its existence at all!!

The Vectis position is a strange one....as is AFAs current"we won't grade another one!"stance.

I can't see it getting ANYWHERE near £12 grand......not with the damage and provenance issues.

We shall see.....

Darren
 
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Where is the statement that AFA have said they won't grade another? I find this peculiar to say the least if this is the case, it's almost stating that they have doubts about their own appraisal of the item if this is true.
 
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I'm confused but it doesn't take much these days to do that to me :)

So am I correct in thinking that there are very good fakes of this VC Jawa on a Palitoy card out there and that this could be one? I must admit that the lack of provenance from the auction house is worrying. Can't understand why the seller wouldn't give as much info as is possible to support the figure.

Jason you mention that apparently it was purchased with other carded figures at an antiques fair. Did you get this info from Vectis or do you know the seller? If this is the case why aren't Vectis making mention of it?

I don't doubt what is being said but I must admit to finding the antique fair story a bit hard to swallow. I can't believe (knowing UK antique fairs as well as I do) that such a batch of figures would be found and sold cheaply at such a place.
There are no good fakes of VC Jawa on Palitoy cards that I am aware of. The one from Torres that was believed to be fake by many, has been authenticated and graded by AFA proving it is not fake.

The info about the auction fair came from Kathy Taylor from Vectis who made that comment on a thread on my star wars facebook group. I have no reason to doubt what she said, and stuff does come up in antique fairs from time to time. I don't know what they were bought for, other than that they were bought relatively cheaply.

cheers Jason
 
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Perhaps I've read this wrong but this is from Richard who graded the first one. There was another reference to grading which I'm searching for which was more formally put.


"I have received a COA for my Palitoy VC Jawa, below, and have included a better photo.


I have had several conversations with Tom Derby, who did view the figure along with his most senior graders and had no problem issueing a COA, he stated that it was the first (and probably last) Palitoy VC Jawa MOC through the doors at AFA and truely one of a kind."
 
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Torres is a vile scammer,who I'm sure reads these and other forums....he scammed me years ago with some awful C-5 carded figures(note I didn't say MOC....they were far from mint!!!)that were solid C9s(he said)

Camera not working(he said)but don't worry they are all great....I took a leap of faith and got screwed. I have to say...Mr.Torres was responsible for turning me onto AFA such was the extent of the scam(about 20 figures)

if the Jawa that is currently slabbed did originate from him...as much as it appears to be legit I'd be very worried about its provenance.

Of course I could be wrong,but from none confirmed to 5 on the go it appears they are suddenly highly visible after there being strong doubt over its existence at all!!

The Vectis position is a strange one....as is AFAs current"we won't grade another one!"stance.

I can't see it getting ANYWHERE near £12 grand......not with the damage and provenance issues.

We shall see.....

Darren

There is no evidence to suggest that 3) originated from Torrres, but it is a new find from an antiques fair.

It's not unusual for new pieces to come to light after a new character/card combo is accepted as real. Anyone claiming a palitoy vcj up until AFA graded one this year
would have to face a barrage of negativity from all the naysayers out there. It's easier for them to come forward now. This also mirrors the large head han, which
started with 1 and 2 examples, now up to half a dozen or so.

I've suggested bubble repair (by straightening the bubble from the inside out using tweezers using the gap at the bottom of the card) and authentication by UKG or AFA to Kathy, and she
doesn't seem keen on either idea. She has said that Vectis say it is 100% genuine. They have a good rep with toys. Also, I and other notable UK palitoy collectors cannot find any issue
with it from the detailed pictures that Vectis has released.

As to price, there are a lot of factors. The bubble is an issue, would it grade much different than the AFA 75 that is out there? Its does look great front on and is unpunched. Vectis auctions
do better than ebay in general and its got some great publicity in the Northern Echo and Daily Mail. The £11,300 ebay auction for AFA 75 one was a zero feedback non paying winning bid, with
MrKenner having paid Richard more than that for it in an off ebay deal. There are more out there now, and that will also affect price. Will be interesting to see what it finally sells for in October!

cheers Jason
 
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Where is the statement that AFA have said they won't grade another? I find this peculiar to say the least if this is the case, it's almost stating that they have doubts about their own appraisal of the item if this is true.
I have not seen such a statement from AFA. Sorry, we won't grade your toys?!? I believe this statement to be false.

Jason
 
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Perhaps I've read this wrong but this is from Richard who graded the first one. There was another reference to grading which I'm searching for which was more formally put.


"I have received a COA for my Palitoy VC Jawa, below, and have included a better photo.


I have had several conversations with Tom Derby, who did view the figure along with his most senior graders and had no problem issueing a COA, he stated that it was the first (and probably last) Palitoy VC Jawa MOC through the doors at AFA and truely one of a kind."

They may be getting another one if Kathy changes her mind and has it AFA graded!

:grin:

Jason
 
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I have not seen such a statement from AFA. Sorry, we won't grade your toys?!? I believe this statement to be false.

Jason
so is this a fake comment,then Jason??.....So the Vectis one could be graded??

Im aware that Vectis have sold some great items,from old shop stock to a complete Trilogo set,so they are on the level.

Im very interested in this figure....I might be interested in doing the Palitoy 12-back run if more of these turn up....and I always believed the Palitoy VCJ was 100% real.

With more being discovered I just wish they could all be graded,verified and confirmed. As much as that will probably cause the prices to soar.....I wouldn't consider buying one unless I KNEW for sure it was the real deal.


Darren
 
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so is this a fake comment,then Jason??.....So the Vectis one could be graded??

Im aware that Vectis have sold some great items,from old shop stock to a complete Trilogo set,so they are on the level.

Im very interested in this figure....I might be interested in doing the Palitoy 12-back run if more of these turn up....and I always believed the Palitoy VCJ was 100% real.

With more being discovered I just wish they could all be graded,verified and confirmed. As much as that will probably cause the prices to soar.....I wouldn't consider buying one unless I KNEW for sure it was the real deal.


Darren
Have no idea where that comment came from. AFA are in the business of grading toys, I'm sure they'd love to see another palitoy VCJ through the door.

If I had the money to bid, I wouldn't be concerned by the lack of grading. Vectis have said it's legit, and if it isn't and you got it refused by AFA or UKG after winning
the auction, I think you'd be able to get your money back from Vectis. So it's all good.


Jason
 
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Ok understand now, thanks.

So it wasn't AFA saying they wouldn't grade another just they believed it may be the last time they grade one due to it's rarity.
 
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Ok understand now, thanks.

So it wasn't AFA saying they wouldn't grade another just they believed it may be the last time they grade one due to it's rarity.
That seems like the likely cause of the confusion!

Jason
 
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Certainly does, thought it sounded an odd statement for them to make.

For the record I reckon ( with my limited knowledge ) that they are legit. I find it hard to believe they would be fake, especially now they are in the hands and under the scrutiny of long time Pali collectors.
 
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This goes to show that one should always be restricted in using the words "one off" or "only one in existence". Like the Harbert Fett, I know know personally about four Mocs now, and I'm sure there are more.
 
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Torres is a vile scammer,who I'm sure reads these and other forums....he scammed me years ago with some awful C-5 carded figures(note I didn't say MOC....they were far from mint!!!)that were solid C9s(he said)

Camera not working(he said)but don't worry they are all great....I took a leap of faith and got screwed. I have to say...Mr.Torres was responsible for turning me onto AFA such was the extent of the scam(about 20 figures)

if the Jawa that is currently slabbed did originate from him...as much as it appears to be legit I'd be very worried about its provenance.

Of course I could be wrong,but from none confirmed to 5 on the go it appears they are suddenly highly visible after there being strong doubt over its existence at all!!

The Vectis position is a strange one....as is AFAs current"we won't grade another one!"stance.

I can't see it getting ANYWHERE near £12 grand......not with the damage and provenance issues.

We shall see.....

Darren
Well said Darren.

Torres and JJ both known con merchants.Would like to know more about the 'toy photographer' story too.Any back up or proof of that?

4 maybe 5 known examples Jason??? I do hope they do not include reseals,because they prove nothing-unless a photo comes of the kid ripping it open??

I will admit i was a naysayer on this,and admit i was wrong.However,when you have dealt with the two pieces of **** mentioned in this thread and been ripped off,it somehow alters your perception-which people dont understand.I am happy that the other got AFA graded,and also happy it ended up in a decent collectors hands.This one from Vectis looks good,but the price will go down because of the discovery of another and damage.
 
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Well said Darren.

Torres and JJ both known con merchants.Would like to know more about the 'toy photographer' story too.Any back up or proof of that?

4 maybe 5 known examples Jason??? I do hope they do not include reseals,because they prove nothing-unless a photo comes of the kid ripping it open??

I will admit i was a naysayer on this,and admit i was wrong.However,when you have dealt with the two pieces of **** mentioned in this thread and been ripped off,it somehow alters your perception-which people dont understand.I am happy that the other got AFA graded,and also happy it ended up in a decent collectors hands.This one from Vectis looks good,but the price will go down because of the discovery of another and damage.
The toy photographer info came from people who asked about the origins of the piece at the show.

4-5 MOC examples and 4 opened examples to date.

cheers Jason
 
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Just wanted to ask if an Auction house like vectis saying something is legit, in this case a very rare piece that im assuming they havnt had in hand before as there is only a few examples known, is that a conflict of interest ? As they will get a cut of the sale, surely this needs to go to the pros in AFA to get authenticated.
Im not saying Vectis would do anything wrong here, they are probably top shelf people, but i just find it strange its not being sent to AFA.

Which brings me to the next question, im aware that many auction houses stand by the authenticity of the items they sell and assume responsibility for anything sold that turns out to not be genuine, would Vectis do the same here, what happens if they sell it, then it is sent to AFA and they call it a fake?
Who is responsible, the auction house or the buyer?

I have not the slightest idea if its legit or not, im hoping it is for the seller and buyer, but its an interesting topic, it will be interesting to see how it all turns out.
 
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Just wanted to ask if an Auction house like vectis saying something is legit, in this case a very rare piece that im assuming they havnt had in hand before, is that a conflict of interest ? they will get a cut of the sale, surely this needs to go to the pros in AFA to get authenticated.
Im not saying Vectis would do anything wrong here, they are probably top people, but it just doesnt sound right to me.
Can't see that as a conflict of interest. They sell carded figures all the time and would not be willingly selling fakes.
I have recommended to Kathy at Vectis that they may achieve a higher price by getting UKG or AFA to authenticate it, but there is bubble damage which may not grade well and we know lower graded cards
don't sell as well, so it's debatable whether grading would achieve a higher price or not. Kathy did say that the card is 100% genuine on my facebook group, read into that what you will.

cheers Jason
 
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Jason,
You are not clearing up the confusion. The first two discovered VC Palitoy MOCS were owned by Torres himself. Also....I really hate to say this but just because AFA grades a piece does not mean the piece is real. You have two problems at hand here.
1. If the VC Jawa Palitoy MOC were truly a legit production piece.....there would have been a good amount more around. Are there any pictures that have surfaced to prove the existence of this piece? Any Palitoy employs that can vouch for this piece? What about QA pieces, Hard copies,....etc?
2. Torres has been known to scam people and make copies of Palitoy MOCS. Keep in mind that Palitoy would be alot easier to make in comparison to it's cousin "Kenner". No waffle seal, card is a different material....etc.
 
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Jason,
You are not clearing up the confusion. The first two discovered VC Palitoy MOCS were owned by Torres himself. Also....I really hate to say this but just because AFA grades a piece does not mean the piece is real. You have two problems at hand here.
1. If the VC Jawa Palitoy MOC were truly a legit production piece.....there would have been a good amount more around. Are there any pictures that have surfaced to prove the existence of this piece? Any Palitoy employs that can vouch for this piece? What about QA pieces, Hard copies,....etc?
2. Torres has been known to scam people and make copies of Palitoy MOCS. Keep in mind that Palitoy would be alot easier to make in comparison to it's cousin "Kenner". No waffle seal, card is a different material....etc.
I'll ask the question again. You keep stating that Torres owned 2 of these. Which other one did he own apart from the one that was graded this year and turned out to be genuine?

There are as many MOC and opened examples of VCJ on palitoy 12 back as there are of large head han now, and nobody is going round saying all of those were faked.

The history of the Palitoy Jawa from Vinyl Cape to Cloth Cape exactly mirrors that of the Kenner card, you can read about it on my website:-

Mr Palitoy's Cardback Guide |

Are you saying Torres can/did make fakes that can fool Tom Derby and co at AFA and the UK's most senior Palitoy collectors? Again I would like to see some evidence of that rather than just hearsay.

cheers Jason
 
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Can't see that as a conflict of interest. They sell carded figures all the time and would not be willingly selling fakes.
I have recommended to Kathy at Vectis that they may achieve a higher price by getting UKG or AFA to authenticate it, but there is bubble damage which may not grade well and we know lower graded cards
don't sell as well, so it's debatable whether grading would achieve a higher price or not. Kathy did say that the card is 100% genuine on my facebook group, read into that what you will.

cheers Jason
Cheers, thanks Jason.
 
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In Jasons defense,he never said RT owned the first two.I noticed Torres had that VCJ a few years back and never beleived it,but i would like to know where you got the idea about the first two being owned by him.

As for AFA grading it,its the best thing to happen.Others saw it and agreed it was real-including a lot of Palitoy collectors.Stop flogging that horse,if Tom and others ok'd it thats good enough for me.
 
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Which brings me to the next question, im aware that many auction houses stand by the authenticity of the items they sell and assume responsibility for anything sold that turns out to not be genuine, would Vectis do the same here, what happens if they sell it, then it is sent to AFA and they call it a fake?
Who is responsible, the auction house or the buyer?
If I understand it correctly from their terms that they are only responsible for the authenticity if on instuction by the seller and then only [as] agents of the seller (which I read as; seller is responsible, but we will deal with the buyer and the seller in seperate disputes):

"2. General.
[...](b) VECTIS AUCTIONS LIMITED do not accept responsibility for the authenticity, attribution, genuineness, origin, authorship, date, age, period, condition or quality of any lot unless they have been instructed in writing by the seller to so certify, and in such case the Auctioneer do so agents of the seller and are not themselves responsible for such claims."
Terms & Conditions - Vectis Toy Auctions

Looking at all the publicity one could say that they are responsible for the authenticity seeing the advertise with it, but I would contact Vectis on it.

-Alex
 
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If I understand it correctly from their terms that they are only responsible for the authenticity if on instuction by the seller and then only [as] agents of the seller (which I read as; seller is responsible, but we will deal with the buyer and the seller in seperate disputes):

"2. General.
[...](b) VECTIS AUCTIONS LIMITED do not accept responsibility for the authenticity, attribution, genuineness, origin, authorship, date, age, period, condition or quality of any lot unless they have been instructed in writing by the seller to so certify, and in such case the Auctioneer do so agents of the seller and are not themselves responsible for such claims."
Terms & Conditions - Vectis Toy Auctions

Looking at all the publicity one could say that they are responsible for the authenticity seeing the advertise with it, but I would contact Vectis on it.

-Alex
Cheers Alex, yes it seems that through their Auction that they are liable here, i just find with such a rare item its a very interesting Auction, and id think the only smart thing to do would be have it authentified by AFA, since when was Vectis an authority on pieces like this, theres only a few in existence as far as we know.
Im not by any means speaking bad of vectis, im just raising the point that i wouldnt really trust anybody other than AFA to authentify a piece like this.
 
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