Obi-Wan the strongest Jedi?

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https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/obi-wan-kenobi-most-powerful-165700626.html

With the tv show in the works, I saw this article on Yahoo today. Whoever wrote this is clearly not a real fan. Kenobi is powerful, yes, but Luke & Yoda were always the strongest. Apparently this writer failed to see Obi-Wan get his butt handed to him not once, but twice by Count Dooku, and he "needed the high ground" to defeat Anakin, who, along with Mace Windu, would also have been stronger Jedi.
 
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While Obi-Wan is certainly no slouch, I was always of the understanding that Yoda, Mace Windu, and even Anakin Skywalker were of a significantly higher power level. It's just that a higher power level does not inherently determine the victor in a conflict. I was always of the belief that Anakin fell to Obi-Wan on Mustafar not because Obi-Wan was more powerful...or even a better duelist. Obi-Wan was smarter, calmer, and more tactical in the fight. Anakin was clouded by rage at that moment, he wasn't thinking...and was far too arrogant, causing his defeat. Was Luke? Not so sure in ANH and ESB, but possibly above Obi-Wan by ROTJ. Qui-Gon Jinn is my wild card. I don't know where he fits in as far as power ranking. I would say that Obi-Wan Kenobi is a more skilled and able Jedi that any others I haven't mentioned though.
 
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Never got that impression from the Prequel.

Then again, never got the impression how Prequel-Anakin remotely resembled “a cunning warrior” either. Or that Yoda was anyone worthy of admiration-- sort came across clueless. All the jedi were jerks/snobs/nitwits. Until Dave’s TCW. Then Anakin became that charming, rebellious, compassionate, selfless and “cunning warrior”. And Obi-Wan finally developed a playful and debonair personality. Dave saved these Prequel characters. Although still never got the impression Obi-Wan was the strongest jedi of them all. Don’t think he was ever meant to be.
 
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I’m sure whatever Disney comes up with it won’t be what I wanted to see. It seems so simple but Disney let’s people come in and make there ideas and visions for these classic SW characters and they usually no nothing about them and the stories they come up with never ever resemble what a simple classic SW story should look like.
 
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. I was always of the belief that Anakin fell to Obi-Wan on Mustafar not because Obi-Wan was more powerful...or even a better duelist. Obi-Wan was smarter, calmer, and more tactical in the fight. Anakin was clouded by rage at that moment, he wasn't thinking...and was far too arrogant, causing his defeat.
I have always seen it this way
 
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I feel Obi Wan is probably #3 behind Yoda and Mace. First, let's face it. Yoda himself said to Obi Wan "To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not" when Obi Wan wanted to kill the Emperor. So that right there puts him at #2. Mace pretty much would of killed Palpatine without Anakin's betrayal. Now sure, Sidious was somewhat playing the victim but Mace also let his guard down when Anakin entered too. To me, that puts Obi Wan at #3.

Obi Wan did defeat Sith Lords Darth Maul (twice), Vader / Anakin at his peak power and (though not a Sith) the killer of many Jedi, General Grievous. So he is unquestionably one of the more Sith tested Jedi in history. I always felt because Count Dooku trained Qui Gon, who trained Obi Wan, Lord Tyrannus knew all his moves. Because Dooku basically invented them. That's not really a fair comparison. It's like how the crappy Miami Dolphins beat the Patriots EVERY year in Miami, without fail. No one is going to say Miami are better than New England, but Miami in FL clearly have their number for whatever reason. Some matchups are just like that.

Luke is the most overrated Jedi in history. He lost to Vader, badly, on Cloud City. Had he not been his son, Vader would of easily killed him. He almost got killed by a Wampa. Jabba almost killed him. Luke only basically beat a very old, broken down and conflicted Vader. It's like finally beating your Dad at a pickup basketball game when he's 50 and your 25. Not a big deal. Plus the old man probably went soft on you. The Emperor WOULD of killed Luke. SIGH...I don't get how Luke is so powerful?
 
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He defeated darth maul and then cuts the chosen one to pieces. I'd say he's somewhat of a badass! K
 
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I always struggle quantifying things like this. How does one even rank these sorts of thing? Their ability to use the force, their fighting prowess, how honorable they are to the Jedi code? I don't know. I'd think if we're just going on purely on combat, from what we've seen in the movies and TV shows, probably Anakin. The way I read Yoda's fights in the prequels were more of a "I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was situation" where Yoda could pull out the stops when the stakes were high, but as soon as they were over he always seemed pretty winded and like they took a lot out of him. Obi-Wan just seemed to get lucky a lot of the time. His major victories always usually come as the result of opponents' hubris. I can't even really get a good reading on Mace. Whose to say how much Palpatine was holding back? Jango fought like an idiot against Mace so much to the point where I hardly considered him besting Jango to be all that impressive.
 
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Well, i don't really think you can label who is the strongest because each one has individual talents. And it's a combination of those talents/skill that define their ability. One might say Yoda is the strongest in the force, well the that too means he also has a weakness. Obi-Wan may not be as strong in the Force as Yoda, but maybe he has skill/technique or calm demeanor at his disposal. Mace may be strong warrior, but lack strong force abilities.

I fell that to be the strongest Jedi, would mean total devotion to the Force and its will. To date no one has shown that in the movies.
Anakin came close it seemed, being strong in the Force and a pretty good warrior, but was misguided and had too many faults. And arguably he wasn't enacting the will of the Force, merely someone else's agenda.

TBH, it's probably whoever Disney says it is. Even if we come up with plausible and reasonable explanations, it's still up to the whim of someone who likely doesn't care all that much.
 
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The way l always saw it.
Mace: The most battle hardened, extremely powerful physically and in the force, but often uses the force for attack more that wisdom.

Yoda: The least physical, perhaps not literally but simply is the most reluctant to turn to a physical solution. Absolutely the wisest and most powerful in the force.

Obi: He is the middle of the two. Sort of the murge.
 
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Luke is the most overrated Jedi in history. He lost to Vader, badly, on Cloud City. Had he not been his son, Vader would of easily killed him. He almost got killed by a Wampa. Jabba almost killed him. Luke only basically beat a very old, broken down and conflicted Vader. It's like finally beating your Dad at a pickup basketball game when he's 50 and your 25. Not a big deal. Plus the old man probably went soft on you. The Emperor WOULD of killed Luke. SIGH...I don't get how Luke is so powerful?
I think the implication is Luke became the most powerful over time, following ROTJ, as he aged and learned more about the Force. I always felt ROTJ essentially marked the true end of his adolescence and naivety and began his journey towards wisdom.
 
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I think the implication is Luke became the most powerful over time, following ROTJ, as he aged and learned more about the Force. I always felt ROTJ essentially marked the true end of his adolescence and naivety and began his journey towards wisdom.
Maybe, but from what I heard about the ST Luke never is shown to be that powerful. Now I did not watch them, so I cannot say but that is what others have said. I stick to my opinion, Luke is overrated based on what we have seen.

The only time Luke was actually powerful was in the Dark Horse comics, like Dark Empire. THAT was the Luke we were promised, but in live action I have never seen it.
 
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Maybe, but from what I heard about the ST Luke never is shown to be that powerful. Now I did not watch them, so I cannot say but that is what others have said. I stick to my opinion, Luke is overrated based on what we have seen.

The only time Luke was actually powerful was in the Dark Horse comics, like Dark Empire. THAT was the Luke we were promised, but in live action I have never seen it.
That's because Rian robbed us

I think the problem is in the 70s/80s, they could only do so much...and George forgot that with the prequels, when everything made the future (OT) look like the stone age. I know a lot of people don't want the technology of our world interfering with their interpretation of that world, but I think we kind of have to
 
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Yeah when you really look at Luke, he's really only JUST becoming a Jedi by the time of Jedi. I think the implication is he will BECOME the most powerful Jedi of all-time, not that he quite is yet. Then you come to Last Jedi and it was just completely derailed.
 
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even in ROTJ he's not a jedi until the last scene. in jabba's palace he calls himself "..Luke Skywalker, JEDI KNIGHT and friend to captain solo.." but later he goes to dagobah and talks to yoda about it. Luke says "..so I AM a jedi.." and yoda just laughs at him, and tells him to go confront vader first. it's not until the very end when he throws down his lightsaber, that he actually declares himself to BE a jedi... and yet... in this scene... he doesn't seem to understand "jedi-school"-Lesson-#1: "This Weapon Is Your Life" (LOL) -- so what does he REALLY know..? apparently Obi-wan drilled this lesson into anakin's head in AOTC (and many ties before, given anakin's eye-roll), but he never bothered to tell Luke about it...? not even once..?

(hmmmm...)*




* I've said it before, when you think about it, it's pretty clear that yoda and Ben sent Luke off to die in ROTJ -- they threw him under a bus -- just think about it: Mace Windu fought the emperor (and lost); Yoda Himself fought the emperor (and lost); Yoda wouldn't LET obi-wan face the emperor (in ROTS); did he REALLY think 'Young Luke' stood a snowball's chance (in ROTJ)? -OR- did he simply 'believe the prophecy'? LOL

ie: Yoda knew anakin as "The Chosen One" after all -- which means, deep down, Yoda believed that Anakin was the one who would kill the emperor and bring balance to the force -- and what better way to "fulfill the prophecy", (what better way to 'make' anakin kill the emperor), than to have the emperor murder 'Padme's Love Child', right there, in front of anakin's eyes? it was a set-up. Yoda used Luke, to get under anakin's skin -- to MAKE anakin fulfill the prophecy. Yoda trained Luke ONLY enough to cause a disturbance in the force, (to pique Palpatine's attention from across the galaxy)... and then, as soon as Palpatine became aware of Lukes existence, it was...*ahem* "No More Training Do You Require"(!?) whut!?

Mace Freaking Windu, was a lifelong jedi (not a padawan), and HE couldn't destroy the Emperor; Yoda Himself was a lifelong jedi (not a padawan) and HE couldn't destroy the emperor; Yoda actually told 'Jedi Master' Obi-wan Kenobi: straight up: "...strong enough to defeat this Darth Sidious, YOU Are NOT!" -- so what makes him think that 'Young Luke' (a padawan with only 2 weeks of actual training under his belt in ROTJ) would be "Stronger" than "Master Kenobi" in ROTS? or Mace Windu? or Yoda Himself? (what makes him think that ANY Padawan would be "strong enough" to kill the emperor?) -- that doesn't make any sense.

the ONLY thing that makes sense here is, Yoda threw Luke under a bus LOL. he USED Luke, to get under anakin's skin. he knew that ONLY anakin was 'strong enough' to defeat the emperor (because: prophecy). Not Mace; Not Yoda; Not Obi-wan; and CERTAINLY not an "untrained" Luke (!?) of all people (!?) LOL. Yoda's not that stupid.

this whole thing was a chess game between Yoda and Palpatine after all -- and Luke was just a Padawan in ROTJ -- *cough* -- I mean, a Pawn. LOL
(certainly not the "strongest jedi ever" :p LOL) cheers!
 
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Interesting and very good post. I don't 100% agree with it all though. I wouldn't say Yoda and Ben sent Luke to die...per se. I think they certainly knew there was potential he could die. But I think it was a calculated risk, a gamble...so to speak. I think Luke himself knew that and was well aware when giving himself to the Empire. But Yoda, Ben, and Luke all were banking off Vader's nostalgia. He won't kill his son. So I do agree, Yoda used Luke to get under Anakin's skin for sure. Because realistically, if you really look at it, Vader could have killed Luke on Bespin any time he wanted. He's toying with him. He could have likely (a bit more a challenge...but not much more) killed Luke any time he wanted in that throne room. He simply didn't want to. Luke technically won...because Vader wasn't all in it. Vader was a half measure due to his emotional ties. I believe Yoda and Ben, having know who Anakin once was, believed he could become that man again...become the chosen one...but ONLY through encountering a deep connection. A connection, as dramatized as it is in SW, of father and child. It was all that could bring him back. The only way. So actually, I guess potentially sent him to his death isn't really all that different from sending him to his death. So touche, maybe I do agree. =P
 
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One question I've always wondered...while Force ghosts can only materialize to Force sensitives, can they creep on whoever they want? Maybe even non-Force sensitives? For instance, neither seem too keen on Luke running off in ESB to face Vader. It's obvious they've chalked Anakin off long ago. However...once Luke survived, which undoubtedly Obi-Wan was there watching even if it's never been addressed (because why wouldn't he be?), maybe Vader's desire to turn and not kill Luke got ol' Ben thinking. And if ol' Ben got to thinking long enough, maybe he creeped on Vader some more, and came to think maybe there was more of Anakin left than he gave Vader credit for. He probably would have materialized himself back to Dagobah, shared his musings with Yoda, and they decide to place their chips on that because, well, what other options did they have?

I always find it difficult to try to cannonize and rationalize Star Wars plot holes...because anything you come up with keeps getting countered. If Qui-Gon was rolling around in the ghost, I imagine he and any other ghost Jedi would be at least having powwows with Yoda and Obi-Wan on this whole debacle. It seems like any Jedi not completely blinked out of existence would have a vested interest in Luke.
 
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I've often wondered that too. I mean we know Jedi spirits are not tied to where they died like a lot of real world ghost myths. Obi-Wan appears on Hoth, Dagobah, and Endor. Yoda on Endor and Ahch To. Anakin also on Endor. But I always got the impression they could only be a sort of guiding force rather than actually meddle in the tangible world. That at least seems to be what the originals implied, though unsaid. I also got the impression that perhaps they cannot be seen unless the viewer wants to see and interact with them. Like they can only manifest in appearance due to select emotions or in times of much needed council.

Things have changed now. Now we even know that can tangibly interact and even interfere with the physical world...for better or worse. Luke catches the lightsaber and raises the X-Wing. Yoda...somehow...calls lightening from the sky and burns the tree down. So it does not beg a question: why don't they play a more pro-active role? Can they just go anywhere in the universe...because in essence they are one with the universe and the force...and be quiet observers...but won't be seen unless someone maybe unconsciously calls upon them through the force for just reasons?
 
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Since it's easy for me to get carried away, I'll just give some brief points:

I think before you can decide who the 'strongest' Jedi is, you have to define what you mean by 'strong'.
If you mean who is the best model/example of a Jedi, I don't think best fighter is the metric to use. To borrow from Yoda: "Wars not make one great."

I think of those we see on film, Qui-Gon, Yoda, and Obi-Wan are the only three real contenders.
Luke could/should have grown into one of the 'strongest' Jedi by the ST, but I think the ST greatly disrespected and misunderstood his character.

I don't agree with Cobalt's interpretation of Yoda sending Luke as a sacrificial lamb. Without getting deep into it, I'll just say that at the very least I don't think Lucas intended for the narrative to reflect poorly on Yoda like that. (I give a different perspective here, below the first paragraph: https://forum.rebelscum.com/threads/lets-talk-continuity.1138285/page-2#post-20068103 )
 
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ah but it doesn't reflect poorly on Yoda. quite the contrary.

I mean, realistically, what was Yoda thinking?
what were Yoda's realistic expectations, for sending Luke to confront the emperor like that?
there are only 2 possibilities:

(a) did he seriously expect that Luke would physically defeat the emperor..? at face value..? with NO training..?
(knowing full well that Mace, Obi-wan, and Yoda Himself could NOT defeat the emperor at face value?)
and in so doing, did he really expect somebody 'weaker-than-himself', to do what he, himself, could NOT?
-OR-
(b) did he fully expect anakin to turn..? did he acknowledge that Anakin was, indeed, the "strongest jedi"?
(even stronger than Yoda himself..?) did he tactfully use anakin as a 'weapon', to defeat the emperor?
(and in so doing, did he rely on somebody 'stronger than himself' to do what he, himself, could not?)


hmmm...



(a) if he seriously expected Luke to destroy the emperor, with no training, (when he, himself, could NOT), then he's a moron.
^^ THIS reflects poorly on Yoda LOL. he's leaving everything to chance. he has NO control over the outcome.
he's just 'rolling the dice' at this point -- sending a padawan to defeat a Sith Lord (!?) -- this is an act of sheer desperation.

but (b) if he seriously expected anakin to turn against the emperor -- (if THIS was his plan all along) -- then Yoda is a master tactician.
Yoda has basically used anakin's-forbidden-love as a "weapon", and in so doing, YODA HIMSELF has now defeated the emperor(!)
(like Bruce Lee's "jeet kwan do" -- he has re-directed the emperor's strongest asset and used it against him).
^^THIS reflects very well on Yoda and proves him to be 'smarter' than the emperor.



this whole thing was a "chess game" between Yoda and the Emperor, after all.
either (a) Yoda left the whole thing to chance, with NO control over the outcome, out of sheer desperation,
he relied on an untrained padawan/pawn to kill the emperor, when he himself could NOT...
...or (b) Yoda outwitted the emperor, and absolutely OWNED the endgame, by using the emperor's strongest asset against him.

^^ scenario (a) reflects BADLY on Yoda; scenario (b) proves, Yoda is THE BOSS. :p LOL cheers!
 
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and/or: (to borrow the analogy from another franchise):

the idea of Yoda using Luke as a pawn,
is no different than Dumbledore setting Harry up to die, at 'the right moment'.

snape: "...so the boy must die then?"
DD: "he must die"
snape: "you've raised him like a lamb for slaughter!"
DD: *shrugs*

^^ does this revelation reflect badly on Dumbledore? not really. given the magnitude of what's at stake.
I see a lot of parallels between Yoda and DD :p (perrhaps J.K.R was a SW fan?) :p LOL cheers!
 
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We get into some nuance, here, where I both agree and disagree.

what were Yoda's realistic expectations, for sending Luke to confront the emperor like that?
Yoda did not send Luke to confront the Emperor.
He sent him to confront Vader.

If we retroactively include the prophecy, and if Yoda still believed in that prophecy, I agree, Anakin needed to turn away from Vader to destroy the Emperor (while not also ruling in the Emperor's place)

Before Bespin, Yoda may not have realized that Vader could be turned, and in that case it was simply work with what you got to make the best tool with the materials you have (Luke)

After Bespin, Vader showed hesitation. Aboard the Star Destroyer, for example, when the Falcon jumps to hyperspace. Vader does not react in anger, does not yell, does not strangle anyone. He is conflicted already.

To borrow from Amanaman's thought process: could/did Obi-Wan observe this reaction, and then tell Yoda?
If it wasn't the strategy before to turn Vader, it may have become the strategy now, seeing both that Vader was vulnerable in this way, and that Luke had shown some strength of will in *not* turning to the Dark Side.

So, then, the crux of our disagreement.
Yoda sent Luke to confront Vader (not the Emperor)
As Obi-Wan also says: "You cannot escape your destiny You must face Darth Vader again."

however, Luke did not have to do that at Endor.
No, Luke wasn't planning on doing it at Endor. He was surprised to sense Vader aboard the star destroyer, suggesting he did not expect Vader to be there (since he may have thought Vader would be scouring the galaxy looking for Luke) and/or he was not planning on confronting Vader at Endor.

If Luke had intended to follow Yoda's mission (confront Vader), he would have gone somewhere as far from Endor as he could and draw attention to himself, to make sure that Vader *wasn't* at Endor during a critical rebel mission.

Luke went to Endor because he didn't *want* to face Vader, so instead he thought "well, this is important, I'll help my friends right now, and maybe when that's done, *then* I'll deal with dad."

Luke tried to avoid his destiny, and ended up running right into it.

But if he had done what he was told to by Yoda, instead of going to Endor, he may have confronted and even *turned* Anakin away from the direct interference of the Emperor. The two of them, then, may have confronted and defeated the Emperor together.

So, the point ...
* I've said it before, when you think about it, it's pretty clear that yoda and Ben sent Luke off to die in ROTJ -- they threw him under a bus
That is what reflects negatively on Yoda, and that is what I disagree with.
 
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and/or: (to borrow the analogy from another franchise):

the idea of Yoda using Luke as a pawn,
is no different than Dumbledore setting Harry up to die, at 'the right moment'.

snape: "...so the boy must die then?"
DD: "he must die"
snape: "you've raised him like a lamb for slaughter!"
DD: *shrugs*

^^ does this revelation reflect badly on Dumbledore? not really. given the magnitude of what's at stake.
I see a lot of parallels between Yoda and DD :p (perrhaps J.K.R was a SW fan?) :p LOL cheers!
The difference with Dumbledore/Harry is that Harry carried a Horcrux of Voldemort.
Harry *had* to die (at least once) before Voldemort could be destroyed.
 
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even in ROTJ he's not a jedi until the last scene. in jabba's palace he calls himself "..Luke Skywalker, JEDI KNIGHT and friend to captain solo.." but later he goes to dagobah and talks to yoda about it. Luke says "..so I AM a jedi.." and yoda just laughs at him, and tells him to go confront vader first. it's not until the very end when he throws down his lightsaber, that he actually declares himself to BE a jedi... and yet... in this scene... he doesn't seem to understand "jedi-school"-Lesson-#1: "This Weapon Is Your Life" (LOL) -- so what does he REALLY know..? apparently Obi-wan drilled this lesson into anakin's head in AOTC (and many ties before, given anakin's eye-roll), but he never bothered to tell Luke about it...? not even once..?

(hmmmm...)*




* I've said it before, when you think about it, it's pretty clear that yoda and Ben sent Luke off to die in ROTJ -- they threw him under a bus -- just think about it: Mace Windu fought the emperor (and lost); Yoda Himself fought the emperor (and lost); Yoda wouldn't LET obi-wan face the emperor (in ROTS); did he REALLY think 'Young Luke' stood a snowball's chance (in ROTJ)? -OR- did he simply 'believe the prophecy'? LOL

ie: Yoda knew anakin as "The Chosen One" after all -- which means, deep down, Yoda believed that Anakin was the one who would kill the emperor and bring balance to the force -- and what better way to "fulfill the prophecy", (what better way to 'make' anakin kill the emperor), than to have the emperor murder 'Padme's Love Child', right there, in front of anakin's eyes? it was a set-up. Yoda used Luke, to get under anakin's skin -- to MAKE anakin fulfill the prophecy. Yoda trained Luke ONLY enough to cause a disturbance in the force, (to pique Palpatine's attention from across the galaxy)... and then, as soon as Palpatine became aware of Lukes existence, it was...*ahem* "No More Training Do You Require"(!?) whut!?

Mace Freaking Windu, was a lifelong jedi (not a padawan), and HE couldn't destroy the Emperor; Yoda Himself was a lifelong jedi (not a padawan) and HE couldn't destroy the emperor; Yoda actually told 'Jedi Master' Obi-wan Kenobi: straight up: "...strong enough to defeat this Darth Sidious, YOU Are NOT!" -- so what makes him think that 'Young Luke' (a padawan with only 2 weeks of actual training under his belt in ROTJ) would be "Stronger" than "Master Kenobi" in ROTS? or Mace Windu? or Yoda Himself? (what makes him think that ANY Padawan would be "strong enough" to kill the emperor?) -- that doesn't make any sense.

the ONLY thing that makes sense here is, Yoda threw Luke under a bus LOL. he USED Luke, to get under anakin's skin. he knew that ONLY anakin was 'strong enough' to defeat the emperor (because: prophecy). Not Mace; Not Yoda; Not Obi-wan; and CERTAINLY not an "untrained" Luke (!?) of all people (!?) LOL. Yoda's not that stupid.

this whole thing was a chess game between Yoda and Palpatine after all -- and Luke was just a Padawan in ROTJ -- *cough* -- I mean, a Pawn. LOL
(certainly not the "strongest jedi ever" :p LOL) cheers!
I never thought about it from this angle, but I tend to agree with many ideas you presented. The only thing I would not totally agree with is Yoda had the Emperor on the ropes. You can see when he stands toe to toe with Sidious and Yoda is deflecting the Sith lightning back on him the fear in Palpatine's eyes. You also see it before they even fight, the Emperor tries to make an exit stage left. If Yoda doesn't hit his head and fall out of the Senate pod (which should of killed him), he wins IMO. It was like Rocky II, Palpatine basically got up before the bell. However, to Yoda this equated a loss, "failed have I" as he tells Bail Organa. So from that perspective, obviously Yoda lost.

I also always wonder if Mace doesn't pause to talk to Anakin, does he kill Sidious? He had him dead to rights. I think even Sidious knows this, as he does that force message to Anakin before the fight about "you know if the Jedi destroy me, any chance of saving her will be lost". Sure, once Anakin enters Palpatine hams it up, but Mace also pauses to argue with Anakin. We will never know, but it seemed that way to me.

Being I have made my case how weak I felt Luke is, there is little to no doubt Yoda more or less was using him as bait to get Anakin to come back from being Vader and kill the Emperor. Even the fact they never tell Luke that Darth Vader is his Father. Why? Why also is Yoda disappointed Luke knows? He gives him some BS about not ready for the burden, but yet this guy is going to be the most powerful Jedi?? Yeah...no.
 
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I also always wonder if Mace doesn't pause to talk to Anakin, does he kill Sidious? He had him dead to rights. I think even Sidious knows this, as he does that force message to Anakin before the fight about "you know if the Jedi destroy me, any chance of saving her will be lost". Sure, once Anakin enters Palpatine hams it up, but Mace also pauses to argue with Anakin. We will never know, but it seemed that way to me.
The first time I watched ROTS I thought so too, Mace was so close to ending him and likely was a bombad Jedi! Yet the more times i watch, and the whole Saga as a whole, i see that it's simply another one of Palpatines performances in his master plan.

He needed Anakin on his side, or he would have simply ended Mace with the others at the beginning. And also as a by product of him being attacked and scarred, evoked sympathy in the Senate to make it easier for him to hunt down and kill remaining Jedi.

While he may have had more of a workout than he's had in several years, i don't think he was never in any real danger. He didn't get where he's at by taking calculated risk and seemed to have a contingency plan for almost any scenario, and even one for his supposed death in ROTJ. We're also talking about the same person who killed his own master while he was sleeping, so surely not one to put himself in direct peril.
 
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So, then, the crux of our disagreement.
Yoda sent Luke to confront Vader (not the Emperor)
As Obi-Wan also says: "You cannot escape your destiny You must face Darth Vader again."
but when Yoda was dying he told Luke explicitly "beware the power of the Emperor..."
so he obviously knew, that he was sending Luke off to face the Emperor; not just Vader.
but Yoda didn't actually "prepare" Luke for this.

instead of "Training" Luke (as per "no more training do you require"), he just gave Luke a vague warning.
like, a really REALLY vague warning LOL -- "beware the power of the Emperor"? -- the **** does THAT mean?LOL

he COULD have said "...hey, btw, this guy's got Lightning running through his wires, I've seen it first hand.
watch out for that ****, and whatever you do, remember JediLesson#1, 'this weapon is your life'
your lightsaber can deflect his lightning... save your life, it will... etc"
(
or even just "this weapon is your life" and leave it at that)

seems kinda weird, how obi-wan drilled this stuff into Anakin's skull, but with Luke, he&yoda didn't even mention it.
they literally taught Luke NOTHING that could prepare him to face the Actual Emperor LOL.
they taught him ONLY enough to (piss vader off and) 'cause a disturbance' -- to get (both) Vader and Sheev's attention.
and then they counted entirely on Anakin, to be the hero. THAT was the endgame.

like I said before, if Yoda was counting on Luke to defeat (both) Vader AND Palpatine in the endgame,
then Yoda is a moron. straight up.

-BUT- if his goal was to USE Luke as bait, to MAKE anakin turn, so that ANAKIN would be the hero instead of Luke....
.....then Yoda is a BOSS at chess :p and palpatine got OWNED! :p LOL

^^ I choose scenario (b) LOL cheers!
 
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We don't overall disagree, I think, but we're arguing over terms and semantics, at this point:

but when Yoda was dying he told Luke explicitly "beware the power of the Emperor..."
so he obviously knew, that he was sending Luke off to face the Emperor; not just Vader.
Yes, because when you have only three living & trained Force users in the galaxy (before Filoni & Disney mucked up those waters), and two of them (Luke & the Emperor) each have ties to the third (Vader), it is inevitable that they will all meet.

But it didn't have to be immediate. Was Yoda using Luke to draw Anakin back to the light? Possibly. I think that's a valid interpretation.
Was Yoda "throwing Luke under a bus ... sending him off to die"?
No. Luke, not Yoda, orchestrated the details of his confrontation with Vader.

Like I said, if Luke could have turned Vader while away from the influence of the Emperor, things could have been very different.
Luke even says to Vader before he is taken up to the death star: "I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That was why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your Emperor now."

Luke was already trying to set up a different scenario. First, get Vader away from the Death Star and the Emperor's influence. (at this point, Luke believed the rebel attack was still a secret from the Emperor. Get Vader away, let the Emperor get blown up)

And if Vader had gone with Luke, and the Emperor had fled the Death Star? He would need to be confronted eventually, but do it on their terms, not the Emperor's.

but Yoda didn't actually "prepare" Luke for this.
Didn't he? I guess that depends on your perspective.

What does Yoda say?
"Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate you will."

What was Anakin's fate? What powers did Palpatine use against Anakin to defeat him?
Palpatine didn't fight Anakin.
He turned Anakin. Palpatine's true power lies in his manipulation and deceit and his ability to read a person.
Those are the weapons he used on Anakin, and the weapons he would use on Luke.

So, did Yoda prepare Luke for this or not?
In TESB, much of the training that we see focuses on Luke learning how to control his emotions, remain calm, remain at peace, not give in to fear.

Those are the skills that were going to keep him from falling to the Dark Side and joining the Emperor, which would make both him and the Emperor an even bigger threat.

-BUT- if his goal was to USE Luke as bait, ...
I don't like the descriptor "bait", as it turns Luke into nothing but a pawn, without his own agency, as though Luke's presence alone would motivate Anakin to return and destroy the Emperor.

For example, if Luke had engaged in a full-on, down-and-dirty, no holds barred fight with the Emperor, I don't think that would have turned Vader. That's what Vader was used to seeing. That's what Vader understood.
Even had Luke been able to take the Emperor, he probably would have lost so much of himself in the duel that he himself would have fallen to the Dark Side.

Anakin needed to be shown another way, and that's what he saw in Luke.

It was the behavior Luke modeled that demonstrated to Anakin that there was another path, a Jedi's path.

Luke needed to hew to the Light Side. Luke needed to be willing to stop fighting and die as a Jedi, rather than continue the fight and risk crossing the line to the Dark Side.

(to borrow from another franchise: "you either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.")

So, if the endgame was the return of Anakin, then when Yoda says "No more training do you require. Already know that which you need", he's right.
Because it was a spiritual fight, not a physical one.
 
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I believe Luke was nothing but a pawn. :p LOL
maybe it played out differently for the audience before GL made the prequels..
..but GL insists he always had this story in his head: at the end of the day, it's a story about Vader (not Luke).
which means, Luke is just a supporting character, in something called "the tragedy of Darth Vader".
(if GL tells us the OT was NOT about Luke -- then Luke WAS just a "pawn" in somebody-else's-story).

and yeah maybe Luke wasn't actually 'intending' to be brought before the Emperor...
(as per "that's why you won't take me to your emperor now") ...but that's just Luke's POV.
nobody ever told him what was really going on (which is sort of what makes him "the bait" LOL).
Yoda, on the other hand, can see the future! LOL (just like Palpatine can).
he would have known that Luke would end up in Palpatine's throne room (just like Palpatine knew).
hence the warning from Yoda "beware the power of the emperor" -- Luke's confrontation with Palpatine was expected by Yoda.
so, from Yoda's POV, he would HAVE to know, that he WAS sending Luke into the lion's den (even if Luke wasn't aware of it).
and, he would HAVE to know, that Luke didn't stand a chance against the Emperor (for reasons already mentioned).
it's pretty clear he was relying on Anakin to save the day (the strongest jedi in history); NOT Luke (a padawan with only two weeks of training LOL).
(if not, then he's completely inept as a precognitive "jedi", as well as being a moron :p LOL).
 
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