Invisible Reseals

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Hi Dave.

I have no desire to keep a thread alive which cannot progress without more information. As a forum moderator, I would think you would agree. I would suggest emailing Airedevon to check on progress and encourage her to proceed with her next test run and further explanation. Anything more discussed on this thread is a matter of opinion and won't benefit anyone here.

Your dislike for AFA is evident in your posts and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I even told Chip when he first contacted me over 2 years ago that grading would not work and there was no place for it in Star Wars. He proved me wrong and won over my business. Maybe your friend at actiongrading.com will do the same and maybe he will not. I will agree completely that AFA's grading is not gospel and there is no person or company's grading which will ever be. Anyone who believes this to be the case should reexamine the issue of the inherent subjective nature of grading in the first place. What AFA does do well is provide a safer (er - the key phrase) environment for collectors to trade sight unseen. This is a point which I see no logical argument against. I am happy with less than 25% of my carded eBay purchases. The percentage increases to 90+% with AFA graded figures. (To be conservative). The display value of the AFA graded figure is also second to none.

What needs to be provided for me to take this topic as seriously as you seem to is evidence that this technique has a use in the real world for anything greater than a small fraction of a percent of the figures. I cannot be alarmed unless I am considering a purchase of 1 of 4 possible carded figures. I will proceed with extreme caution when looking for these figures, but I don't see how this affects all other figures. Why would someone want to open a carded figure to reseal the same figure on a card?

My 2 cents

Tom
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Tom, I agree with you 500% There is no point in bumping up a topic like this if the parties involved haven't proceeded ahead with posting info....right now this is a dead topic....unless the original parties involved have an update for us. We all have our opinions about grading...and right now I'm very much neutral...since I have no graded figures in my collection.
 
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I think, and I could be wrong, the fact that Dave is trying to hammer home is that the Ackbar didn't receive the same intensive examination as say a ESB VC Jawa would. Now just as a collector I think it makes perfect sense why the Jawa would get MUCH more of a lookover. However, as a grading service that promises all figures to be treated equal, and charges the same, for the big X to be missed is a real big error on AFA's part. I really have no desire to keep this topic going and have no desire to buy a graded figure but that discrepancy should be rectified. My only part in this was to be an impartial "judge". I am kinda upset that it didn't happen. I was looking forward to seeing if Scott could catch the reseal. And for the record I've spoken to Scott via email numerous times and once at C2 and I think he's the nicest guy. It's nothing personal against him it's just a business faux pas that shouldn't have happened.

John
 
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I just checked this thread because a few days ago Shane had let me know that there was activity on it again. To be honest, I was almost hoping that the whole thing would fade away because the discussions began to be more about AFA than about reseals.

I would, however, like to explain why there was no second experiment and why there won't be one.

At first everything was all set for a second batch of experiments. The parameters of the experiments had been all set up and ready to go. According to Scott at AFA, John Alvarez had agreed to act as moderator of sorts..

This second experiment was going to have 2 parts to it:

1) I would send a batch of figures - some resealed - some not to AFA (only John would know which ones were resealed and which ones were not)

2) Scott was going to send me some sealed empty AFA cases so that I could attempt to see if I could open and reseal them successfully. I had suggested to Scott that he first drill holes in them or something, so he could be sure that they would never be used inappropriately.

All was a go.

Then I got a phone call from Scott telling me that his lawyers wanted me to sign a non-disclosure agreement, stating that I could not divulge the results of these experiments with anyone but AFA.

At first, I said an emphatic "no". Then he helped me to consider that the info could be very useful to AFA in helping them thwart any future fraud attempts.

I agreed to look the papers over -- but was not sure what I would do in the end.

Well... I never received anything...

So, I decided it was best just to let the whole thing drop.

I figured I had been successful in helping collectors consider this issue more carefully, and that was my main objective.

I apologize for having been silent for so long.

Also, I got an email from Darth Sith...I tried to reply, but my reply to him just keeps coming back to me (My email address is airedevon@aol.com if you would like to try again :)
 
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Geez... lawyers and non-disclosure agreements??? I felt you were doing AFA a HUGE favor by helping them detect these types of reseals in the future. If they don't care enough about the integrity of their service to conduct this experiment without all this legal BS, then their grades aren't worth the stickers they're printed on.
 
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Hi Airedevon,

I guess I may have misinformation or there may be a misunderstanding. I was also in contact with Scott when all this was happening and he told me the following:

A nondisclosure agreement was required because you wanted some AFA cases to study. The cases are put together in a way which they say is a company secret and an asset. I got the impression the agreement was simply so information regarding the way their cases went together was not divulged to outside parties.

I would recommend emailing AFA to discuss the next experiment of reseals on the figures alone before this topic gets out of hand again. I don't want to hear theories of a mass cover up anymore. I would really like to know if your reseals are invisible as well. I will actually send an email to AFA right now and ask if they won't contact you to get this experiment rolling again soon and focused on the original topic, invisible reseals.

Please email me and let me know if you still want to even conduct this experiment with AFA. If so, we can contact AFA together and figure this out.

I'll keep everyone posted

Thanks

Tom
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[ 01-24-2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Tom@CloudCity.Com ]
 
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Geez... lawyers and non-disclosure agreements??? I felt you were doing AFA a HUGE favor by helping them detect these types of reseals in the future. If they don't care enough about the integrity of their service to conduct this experiment without all this legal BS, then their grades aren't worth the stickers they're printed on.
<font size="2" face="arial">I agree Bill- seeking legal council about this matter verifies its seriousness…can’t blame a company for trying to cover it’s back. It’s strange that something so important would be ultimately neglected and swept under the rug- although the experiment would have been beneficial to all (especially AFA) it looks like they managed to completely avoid it.

It’s a shame that AFA was unwilling to communicate well with us… a company has a responsibility to its customers (even if it’s only 2%), yet obviously they don’t take this responsibility seriously enough to be accountable.

Airedevon, thank you for letting us know what happened.

edited for wrong word usage..doh
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[ 01-24-2003, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Boba Ho-Tep ]
 
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Originally posted by John J. Alvarez:
I think, and I could be wrong, the fact that Dave is trying to hammer home is that the Ackbar didn't receive the same intensive examination as say a ESB VC Jawa would. Now just as a collector I think it makes perfect sense why the Jawa would get MUCH more of a lookover.
John
<font size="2" face="arial">I usually post things that most people disagree with, so I'll do this again!
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John, I've got to disagree with this in principle. I think when you grade a figure based on it's current intrinsic (sic?) value, then you are doing a disservice to the person who sent in the grade. What I'm getting at here is exactly what you've said, grading a VC Jawa with more precision than a ROTJ Ackbar. Now I think they've changed their grading scale to include current market values (could be wrong), but what if that Ackbar or _________ (insert favorite carded figure here) is a rare variant or a seldom-seen backed card? What if AFA didn't know about that variant or seldom-seen backed card? This is the reason that in a perfect grading service all figures, without prejudice, are given the same grading committment. FWIW, I have no beef with AFA.

In regards to the lawyers thing, sounds to me like someone's afraid of being sued. Worrying about some sealing process for the cases, nah, just worried about being sued.
 
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Originally posted by Boba Ho-Tep:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="arial"> Geez... lawyers and non-disclosure agreements??? I felt you were doing AFA a HUGE favor by helping them detect these types of reseals in the future.
<font size="2" face="arial">I agree Bill- seeking legal council about this matter belies its seriousness…
</font>[/QUOTE]<font size="2" face="arial">As I said above, this smacks of a liability issue, not a "trade secrets" issue. Think of all the AFA customer, both buyers and sellers, who could have a legal claim to fraud. Probably won't happen, but lawyers are usually conservative by nature on things like this.
 
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Hey Bryan, thanks for making me look again at my words...just changed my post, as I guess I was saying the opposite of what I meant
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This would have to be the best attempts of a cover up, I have heard of in quite some time, By signing a legally binding agreement, Airdevon becomes permantly GAGGED by AFA, and risks serious financial consequences. AFA seems hell bent on silencing Airdevon for good.
When I originally became interested in this post, I never relized how cut throat
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AFA would be , seems I am wrong. This hobbie should be run by collectors for collectors, we do not need individuals or companies who hide behind highly paid lawyers in this hobby or should I say Business
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Sorry AFA once again, No cigar
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Message to Airdevon- You have gone this far, we are all desperatly wanting to know the process of resealing. Forget AFA s rigged tests and lets us all know.
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Originally posted by Darthbryan:
I usually post things that most people disagree with, so I'll do this again!
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John, I've got to disagree with this in principle. I think when you grade a figure based on it's current intrinsic (sic?) value, then you are doing a disservice to the person who sent in the grade. What I'm getting at here is exactly what you've said, grading a VC Jawa with more precision than a ROTJ Ackbar. Now I think they've changed their grading scale to include current market values (could be wrong), but what if that Ackbar or _________ (insert favorite carded figure here) is a rare variant or a seldom-seen backed card? What if AFA didn't know about that variant or seldom-seen backed card? This is the reason that in a perfect grading service all figures, without prejudice, are given the same grading committment.
<font size="2" face="arial">Ok, how do you disagree? That's what I said. You only quoted half of my post silly.
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John
 
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Originally posted by Star Wars Authority:
Message to Airdevon- You have gone this far, we are all desperatly wanting to know the process of resealing. Forget AFA s rigged tests and lets us all know.
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<font size="2" face="arial">I gotta say I think that would be a VERY bad idea to plaster that on a public forum. I can jsut see eBay littered w/ DT Vaders now.

John
 
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I can completely understand everyones concerns,
but it has been proven by Airdevon that perfect reseals can be done, I have read in this thread that certain persons would love to have this subject completely dropped. Well this is the best way, I have a excellent theory as to how this process is done, I know if I am right that many people will hate me for it, but I am a firm believer in letting the truth be known at any cost.
Ok here is how I think it is done.

Freezing in the freezer as we all know by reading this thread is a excellent way of removing a bubble from the card, but it make resealing perfectly almost impossible. So why not freeze only a very small portion of the bubble, how is this done .
Answer: Electronic freeze spray, that can be purchased at nearly any electronic store. The can of freeze spray comes with a very tiny straw that enable the user to target precise areas.
I am going to test this theory shortly and will keep this post updated with my results unless someone does it before.
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Originally posted by John J. Alvarez:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="arial">Originally posted by Star Wars Authority:
Message to Airdevon- You have gone this far, we are all desperatly wanting to know the process of resealing. Forget AFA s rigged tests and lets us all know.
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<font size="2" face="arial">I gotta say I think that would be a VERY bad idea to plaster that on a public forum. I can jsut see eBay littered w/ DT Vaders now.

John
</font>[/QUOTE]<font size="2" face="arial">I dunno about that, I dont think resealing figures is that much of a secret. If your into fraud, it probably isnt that hard to think up, and there probably wouldnt be much of a change in the occurances of fraud.

Course all this worry, but i wonder what stops any of these fraud artist from just faking a AFA grade? I would tend to think there is a large portion of AFA graded buyers around that dont check out actual authenticity.

so it doesnt seem to much of a reach to me that resealed, falsely graded figures have made their way out into the market already.

then you start to wonder if by having a supposed grading system, if that doesnt lend to the price someone can get for a good fraud?

course if their werent people out there willing to pay thousands for old plastic men we wouldnt have any of these issues
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This hobbie should be run by collectors for collectors, we do not need individuals or companies who hide behind highly paid lawyers in this hobby or should I say Business
<font size="2" face="arial">Nice perspective Star Wars Authority, and I fully agree... AFA or any other grading service !

As a collector though..... like all collectors here, if AFA does not meet your standards that a business of this sort should, then STOP buying there service ! Instead, use the money to help fund your collection. The counter arguement would be that , "Ohhh, I paid $750 on a carded figure, then sent that figure to AFA for grading which costs "X amount of $$" to grade, then I sold the graded figure for $1500. Doubled my money " .

Sometimes folks, when you mix Profits $$$ of doing business in a hobby, and collecting for shear JOY, it can really taint the collector interests for years after words. I just hope AFA doesn't get too wreckless with this hold "Ackbar experiment", and bring the hobby down.
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Originally posted by BillCable:
Geez... lawyers and non-disclosure agreements??? I felt you were doing AFA a HUGE favor by helping them detect these types of reseals in the future. If they don't care enough about the integrity of their service to conduct this experiment without all this legal BS, then their grades aren't worth the stickers they're printed on.
<font size="2" face="arial">Your being quite the hypocrite here, Bill..

Just the other night in the chat room you were telling me about your ideas for the CCGC (Creature cantina grading center.).. Where if you send in a figure with a 100 dollar bill, you get a grade of CCGC 10, with a 50 dollar bill, a grade of CCGC 9, a 20 gets you a CCGC 8, and sending a figure with no money, just makes it part of Bills collection.

You were also discussing with me your tamper proof cases.. but I have doubts with the security of duct tape wrapped around a star case.....

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*ZING!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Originally posted by Star Wars Authority:
proven perfect reseals can be done. I am going to test this theory shortly and will keep this post updated with my results unless someone does it before.
<font size="2" face="arial">Are you telling us that airedevon can't see her own work when she looks at that ackbar? I very much doubt this would be the case.

You know freezing a carded figure won't give you anything near a clean backing card to work from - so why do you think this would be any different? Even freeze dried glue is enough to give a reseal away.

It would take supernatural intervention to remove any sign whatsoever that a seal has been tampered with - a few of the customisers here might be able to produce some 'amazingly good reseals', but the 'invisible reseal' is an impossibility (nano technology aside ; ^ ).

Your claim that airedevon has produced the 'perfect reseal' reeks of a fairly simplistic viewpoint. It'd be far more accurate to say she fooled one person, who given another look at the piece, would probably spot it.

What you've got to realise, is that Fooling AFA, or any one individual, doesn't make the tampering invisible
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Originally posted by rocketjawa:
Your being quite the hypocrite here, Bill..

Just the other night in the chat room you were telling me about your ideas for the CCGC (Creature cantina grading center.).. Where if you send in a figure with a 100 dollar bill, you get a grade of CCGC 10, with a 50 dollar bill, a grade of CCGC 9, a 20 gets you a CCGC 8, and sending a figure with no money, just makes it part of Bills collection.

You were also discussing with me your tamper proof cases.. but I have doubts with the security of duct tape wrapped around a star case.....

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*ZING!!!!!!!!!!!
<font size="2" face="arial">D@mnit RJ... I told you not to tell anybody about this!!! You've destroyed the credibility of the CCGC! Back to the drawing board...

BTW, I think it would do the community more good than harm to hear the method used in these reseals. The way I see it, if everyone knows how to do it, everyone will know what to look for. If only Airedevon knows how to do it then all the knowledge is is centralized. Not that I think Airedevon would do this, but as it is now a skilled forger could offer Airedevon $15K for "the secret" so they could go about cranking out AFA graded VC Jawas by the case (since big lots of VC Jawas have turned up it wouldn't be 100% suspicious)... and a whole lot of collectors could end up being hurt. I have a greater fear of one or two skilled frauds getting the know-how than I do everyone having it.
 
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I have been following this post now and starting to get very paranoid about my figures. I will have to check them all over for reseals. I want to have some graded by AFA but am concerned that figures looked at in the early days being graded differently to ones looked at now and receiving a harsher grade. Also does the fact I am a nobody in this collecting community mean I will not get as much attention to my figure as say a well respected person who may give them a heap of figures to look at. I think this thread is really starting to get me paranoid about my collection and perhaps I need to get a life. Anyway I know this is getting off topic but I have noticed the mention of the Vinyl caped Jawa on ESB card. I didn't see the earlier thread on this and don't know the outcome but what I can do is 100% back up its authenticity. When I first returned to Star Wars collecting in 1993 I visited a shop in Brisbane called Pippins and looking through the stock sitting next to a Takara Landspeeder and a Star Wars three pack was a vinyl caped Jawa this took my interest as I always claimed to the other kids that I had every figure ever released. It was also the day I found out that Yakface exists and that Blue Snaggletooth is another I was horrfied. Anyway the dealer showed me the item which was a cut card item : ie all that remained was the bubble area and about 1cm of card around the figure so whilst it was a carded figure it was not fully carded which meant to me not complete don't try to buy it. I do remember the back of the card ( which is the only way I know it was esb ) it was the blue background 41 back. Now I have seen two others for sale recently both had this back. I question why anyone would reseal a figure on a cut incomplete card back in 1993 when the value of this figure was not huge though I do remember the cost being more than the standard version. I understand why people may doubt it as it seems an Aussie exclusive also appears that the Darth Vader large doll esb box was released here due to the number I have seen and all have tape tears from when they were sealed up so I assume it sat in stores ! Most have come from Qld for some reason. Anyway I hope this thread gets better and more confidence can be put in AFA.
 
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Just rereading my last post I din't make it clear that the bubble was unaffected on the card just the cardboard backer had been cut. I asked why and the dealer said that when he bought the stuff it was all that way for better storage. I bought a different item from that collection an VFL ( Australian rules ) figure sealed on card but card trimmed. I still own that one !
 
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On the topic of these invisible reseals, has anyone thought of a way this affects other carded figures other than rare variations like the DT figures on 12-back cards? I am still under the impression you must start with an unopened figure in which case it would only affect these few rare variations or maybe miscards, etc. I don't see any effect on carded figure collecting in general. Am I wrong? I just want to understand why everyone speaks of it like it affects a normal carded figure you may buy. If a figure has been opened in the past (the usual reason a person would reseal it) then there will still be obvious evidence of a reseal.

Tom
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Originally posted by John J. Alvarez:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="arial">Originally posted by Darthbryan:
I usually post things that most people disagree with, so I'll do this again!
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John, I've got to disagree with this in principle. I think when you grade a figure based on it's current intrinsic (sic?) value, then you are doing a disservice to the person who sent in the grade. What I'm getting at here is exactly what you've said, grading a VC Jawa with more precision than a ROTJ Ackbar. Now I think they've changed their grading scale to include current market values (could be wrong), but what if that Ackbar or _________ (insert favorite carded figure here) is a rare variant or a seldom-seen backed card? What if AFA didn't know about that variant or seldom-seen backed card? This is the reason that in a perfect grading service all figures, without prejudice, are given the same grading committment.
<font size="2" face="arial">Ok, how do you disagree? That's what I said. You only quoted half of my post silly.
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John
</font>[/QUOTE]<font size="2" face="arial">Sorry John, you're right - you got me on a bair and switch with the comment about the Jawa in the one sentence then hitting with the opposing view in the next sentence. Stupid me
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WOW!! That lot takes some reading!

I haven't really got much in the way of input I suppose. I DO NOT wanna see the exact method of re-sealing printed here...This can only harm us, because in the reasonably short time I have been using this forum, the scammers seem to be know all about rebelscum.com too, and are members too...We are not alone my friends!
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This, although a great experiment, is not reality. Okay, AFA states they treat every figure the same...You don't actually believe that do you? Of course they must be aware by now of their influence of a grade by them makes on the market value of figures!

I for one would like to see another experiment performed, for validity, and hopefully further prevention of this re-sealing method...

Point is: Mistakes happen. Quite a few posters have referred to mechanics making mistakes. I am a mechanic for a living, and I am NOT perfect. I have in the past, and will make mistakes in the future. I am happy too admit this, and to be honest I am comfortable with this. Every mechanic I know has made a mistake. Some can be minor, others can be major (i.e. wheel bolts loose...Wheel falls off!!!)

"To err is human, to forgive is divine"...i like that saying...

I live in the U.K....I will probably never have anything to do with AFA, due to the distance and ££'s involved. That is pretty much why I have not read/posted in this thread before.

ONE QUESTION : Can someone please tell me, have AFA put their prices up since they began? They obviously know about their importance on the cost of pieces they have graded...Just wondering if because of this they may have jacked up the cost? (I don't mean a few pence/pounds...Inflation is a part of life)

Final note: The one and only post from AFA said it all I think...Yeah they made a mistake. Scott didn't try and put it all on some subordinate. He said he had looked at it, and he had passed it. He doesn't sound like he is trying to cover anything, just that everyone makes mistakes...Sh*t happens! Thanks to Tom from Cloudcity. Your posts were all concise and a pleasure to read (Was curious about the history of Cloudcity...).

My .20 pence...Peace out collectors!
 
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I have a lot to say in response to many people's posts, so please bear with me.

AFA seems hell bent on silencing Airdevon for good.

AFA seems so be willing to do another experiment, which I think is great and definitely not a sign of being cut throat as you say.

Message to Airdevon- You have gone this far, we are all desperatly wanting to know the process of resealing. Forget AFA s rigged tests and lets us all know.

NO! This is a bad move in any sense. Even though this technique (which, by the way, has NOT been seen by more expert collectors who know what to look for) only works on a few figures, having this knowledge made public is a bad idea. There is NO POINT in having everyone know the technique. The only exception would be if it were proven to be successful which so far it HAS NOT.

Freezing in the freezer as we all know by reading this thread

There's the problem. On paper anything looks possible. John Howe, a famous Tolkien artist puts it best when he says that you can do anything on paper, but when you go and try to do it in real life, it's impossible. The same thing applies here. So far, we've only heard that the freezing technique works-- but that has yet to be proven. How is that proven? By successfully passing the eye of EXPERT collectors.

Not that I think Airedevon would do this, but as it is now a skilled forger could offer Airedevon $15K for "the secret" so they could go about cranking out AFA graded VC Jawas by the case (since big lots of VC Jawas have turned up it wouldn't be 100% suspicious)... and a whole lot of collectors could end up being hurt.

Bill, I completely disagree with this statement. First of all, why would anyone in their right mind want to risk $15,000 on a method that is not reliable? You can bet that people will be scrutinizing carded VC Jawas time and time again. So far, I have seen nothing to convince me that any *successful* reseals have appeared on the market. And to go even further and say that they could fake an AFA case and sticker? Let's say that's possible. Then all one needs to do is check the serial number with AFA to see if it were indeed truly graded. So as you can see, this is simply not a problem.

I have been following this post now and starting to get very paranoid about my figures. I will have to check them all over for reseals.

Paul, don't worry. I promise you that the amount of real carded figures FAR outweighs the amount of reseals. With time and experience, the number of successful reseals one risks buying approaches zero. Usually, most members on these forums can spot a fake just by the picture alone.

Finally, and the questions that no one has answered and seems CRUCIAL to this debate is whether this actually has ANY concern for normal carded figures? To use this technique (which I again say has not yet been proven to be successful) you would need to start off with an MOC figure that has NEVER been opened. Anything previously opened would clearly have signs (even the smallest) of being opened. So why would you open a ROTJ Ackbar to simply reseal again?
-Isaac
 
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once again the more "important" collectors get to know the method, but those of us who aren't as well known, but may in fact have large collections aren't good enough to be know and be able to spot these things for ourselves.
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nothing against anyone personally, just think it's very elitist.
 
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Originally posted by Rym:
once again the more "important" collectors get to know the method, but those of us who aren't as well known, but may in fact have large collections aren't good enough to be know and be able to spot these things for ourselves.
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nothing against anyone personally, just think it's very elitist.
<font size="2" face="arial">This is not the case at all. It's not a question of who is "good enough" to know. It's a matter of what is available publicly and what isn't in order to prevent people with bad intentions to have easy access to that information.

For example, on the new US paper money, they mentioned a few of their new counter-counterfeiting features, but they didn't go out and spell out all of them. Why? It's not because most of the population isn't "good enough" to know (I'd venture to say that most are), but rather because having that information public could allow someone with bad intentions to get it easily. See what I mean?

Please don't think I'm trying to be elitist. I'm all for collecting what you like and not having to be pressured into collecting certain things because they're the thing to collect.
-Isaac
 
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from Rym: once again the more "important" collectors get to know the method, but those of us who aren't as well known, but may in fact have large collections aren't good enough to be know and be able to spot these things for ourselves.
<font size="2" face="arial">It was our understanding that if the experiments had gone as planned; AFA would have updated us on the technique and for spotting the reseal by posting their results on this forum.

From AFA: After we have reviewed the additional samples from Airedevon, we will post a follow-up to this thread with our findings regarding the detect ability of this type of reseal so that we can help to ensure the maximum level of accuracy in detecting carded figures which have been tampered with in the future.
<font size="2" face="arial">If AFA wanted airdevon to sign a non-disclosure agreement it would indicate that they had no intention of revealing anything they discovered…and they don’t want her to either.

In any case Airdevon is not obligated to AFA or anybody else.
 
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Originally posted by Boba Ho-Tep:
It was our understanding that if the experiments had gone as planned; AFA would have updated us on the technique and for spotting the reseal by posting their results on this forum.
<font size="2" face="arial">Results yes, technique doubtably. I was suppose to be in on this but I doubt I was even going get the technique. AFA was was going to use this info to help them in spotting other cards done in the same manner. There really aren't many that you need to worry about. I think ones like DT figures are about it. Even if you did swap a VC Jawa the bubble would be wrong.

There are only two other scenarios I can think of where this might be useful.


</font>
  • <font size="2" face="arial">One would be if somebody opened a card and swapped in a popular figure. For example if they put a Fett on another card like a Stormtrroper card. This could be used to bring in decent money from a Fett collector that wants a miscard.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="arial">The other is similar in nature. If you swaped out a figure and replaced it w/ another you could try to pass it off as a carded sample and get a nice chunk of change. Most times the provenance of a sample will be questioned before dropping any money on it. However, there are those w/ more money than desire to investigate/ learn and these would be prime targets.</font>
<font size="2" face="arial">John
 
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Originally posted by Isaac S. Lew:
Bill, I completely disagree with this statement. First of all, why would anyone in their right mind want to risk $15,000 on a method that is not reliable? You can bet that people will be scrutinizing carded VC Jawas time and time again. So far, I have seen nothing to convince me that any *successful* reseals have appeared on the market. And to go even further and say that they could fake an AFA case and sticker? Let's say that's possible. Then all one needs to do is check the serial number with AFA to see if it were indeed truly graded. So as you can see, this is simply not a problem.
<font size="2" face="arial">First of all, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW if successful reseals have appeared on the market?? If you knew about them then they wouldn't be successful now, would they?
wink.gif
And Airedevon's method is the farthest thing from unreliable. If it's good enough to fool AFA then I'd judge it to be pretty freakin' reliable. So why would somebody invest $15K? Take a C9 12-back Jawa ($300 or so) plus an authentic loose VC Jawa ($100), mix them together with Airedevon's method and you get a $5000 AFA graded piece. Make 4 and you've recouped your investment. Make 5 and you're 1/4 the way to a nice new automobile. Get the picture? And as long as only a select few have the knowledge on these reseals there's a significant risk of this happening. If everyone knew then everyone would know what to look for... even AFA. As I understand it right now, AFA doesn't know how to detect these even today. So who's to say the latest AFA-graded VC Jawa was legit? Can anyone know for sure?

The whole faking an AFA case thing is unnecessary. When you can get AFA to authenticate your fakes there's no reason to make your own case.
 
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Originally posted by BillCable:
Take a C9 12-back Jawa ($300 or so) plus an authentic loose VC Jawa ($100), mix them together with Airedevon's method and you get a $5000 AFA graded piece.
<font size="2" face="arial">No Bill, you get a worthless carded figure w/ the wrong bubble.
smile.gif
VC's Jawas have a different bubble. Even if the reseal was perfect the bubble is a dead give-away.

John
 
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First of all, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW if successful reseals have appeared on the market?? If you knew about them then they wouldn't be successful now, would they?
wink.gif


Fine, point taken. But...

And Airedevon's method is the farthest thing from unreliable. If it's good enough to fool AFA then I'd judge it to be pretty freakin' reliable.

Here's the thing. Let's face it, AFA did not thoroughly check the seal of the bubble because it made no sense to. Now, you could argue that this was wrong business practice, but you can not equate this with passing a fake. This is the crux of my argument. Until we know for sure that this can not be detected, you can't say anyone was "fooled".

So why would somebody invest $15K? Take a C9 12-back Jawa ($300 or so) plus an authentic loose VC Jawa ($100), mix them together with Airedevon's method and you get a $5000 AFA graded piece.

No, you get an obviously fake carded VC Jawa with a HUGE red flag in that the bubble would be wrong. Come on Bill, you know this.
-Isaac
 
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everyone posting here now knows it would be the wrong bubble, but I know at least 3 collectors that MIGHT have the desire to buy a carded vinyl jawa and don't post here and would NOT know the bubble was wrong. and that's just me. Think of all those buyers on ebay... I would bet not even 5% of collectors would know where to even look to do research on a carded vc jawa

edit: and besides, there are other uses for this method like have been stated already.

[ 01-26-2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Rym ]
 
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Originally posted by Rym:
everyone posting here now knows it would be the wrong bubble, but I know at least 3 collectors that MIGHT have the desire to buy a carded vinyl jawa and don't post here and would NOT know the bubble was wrong. and that's just me.
<font size="2" face="arial">Well, you know them. Doesn't that mean you would help them out? Yeah, it won't reach everybody but that doesn't mean that they don't know somebody "in the know".

Originally posted by Rym:
Think of all those buyers on ebay... I would bet not even 5% of collectors would know where to even look to do research on a carded vc jawa

<font size="2" face="arial">5% is a tad low don't you think? Are you saying only the small percentage of us that use boards are the only knowledgeable people? I know a bunch of people that don't post to boards that are VERY knowledgeable. Give the "under the radar" collectors a little more credit. Besides if you are too lazy to go to Google and type in a search for VC Jawa Fakes then you don't really care about the $5k you are plunking down. I find it hard to feel remorse for those that think with thier wallets and sit on thier brains.

John
 
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From John J. Alvarez:
Results yes, technique doubtably. I was suppose to be in on this but I doubt I was even going get the technique.
<font size="2" face="arial">I suppose… if they could concisely direct the collector on how to avoid these types of reseals, without spilling the beans, it would be fine…but I doubt it’s possible as one usually needs to know what the technique is before it can be spotted effectively.

If it was never their intention to let us know how to look for it, while they were the sole proprietors of the “secret recipe”, then it looks like they were trying to cash-in on their exclusivity to know, while excluding the action figure community completely of this knowledge…"Watch out kids- This is just another reason why you don’t want to buy any high ticket item unless it’s been graded and encased!"
rolleyes.gif
this sounds absolutely elitist and further strengthens the view that the “professional grading” system is built around profit rather than enjoyment of the hobby.

[ 01-26-2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Boba Ho-Tep ]
 
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I agree with John. If they are stupid enough to spend $5,000 without doing *any* research at all, then they deserve to get a fake. But now this becomes an issue of being a wise consumer and not of passing fakes.

"You can't save everyone."
-Isaac
 
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I suppose 5% may be a bit low, but there is no way it's more than 20%. There are LOTS of knowledgeable people who aren't on RS or other forums, I never said there wasn't. I just said there are tons of unknowledgeable collectors who could easily be taken by this method even though the wrong bubble is obvious to some.
 
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Originally posted by Isaac S. Lew:
I agree with John. If they are stupid enough to spend $5,000 without doing *any* research at all, then they deserve to get a fake. But now this becomes an issue of being a wise consumer and not of passing fakes.
<font size="2" face="arial">They deserve to get a fake?
shocked.gif
ouch. I hope there aren't many collectors who agree with you.

Originally posted by Isaac S. Lew:

"You can't save everyone."
<font size="2" face="arial">that is true, but does that mean you don't even try?
 
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Originally posted by John J. Alvarez:
[/qb]
<font size="2" face="arial">There are only two other scenarios I can think of where this might be useful.


</font>
  • <font size="2" face="arial">One would be if somebody opened a card and swapped in a popular figure. For example if they put a Fett on another card like a Stormtrroper card. This could be used to bring in decent money from a Fett collector that wants a miscard.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="arial">The other is similar in nature. If you swaped out a figure and replaced it w/ another you could try to pass it off as a carded sample and get a nice chunk of change. Most times the provenance of a sample will be questioned before dropping any money on it. However, there are those w/ more money than desire to investigate/ learn and these would be prime targets.</font>
<font size="2" face="arial">John[/QB][/QUOTE]
I think these two that John lists are right on. Several people here have said this reseal thing would only be relevant in terms of the higher end figures, which is just wrong. Think about what a Fett on a Luke Gunner card could bring on ebay. Or an original R2 on a ROTJ Sensorscope card. Focus collectors generally pay premiums for anomalies like these.

The experienced collectors in this forum would note something like those listed above as suspicious, but there are alot of ebayers who don't frequent this site and may not even know such advanced reseal techniques exist. The possibilities are virtually endless.
 
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They deserve to get a fake?
shocked.gif
ouch. I hope there aren't many collectors who agree with you.


If someone is lazy enough or doesn't care to do research before buying such an expensive item, then yes, they deserve what they get. Clearly, they're willing to spend money without thinking. I think most collectors would agree with me.

that is true, but does that mean you don't even try?

No, not all. If someone were to ask about fake VC Jawas, I would be more than happy to point them to all the great resources that fellow collectors, who were concerned about newbies (or rich, mindless people) getting ripped off, wrote. Such as:

http://www.toysrgus.com/images-fakes/fake-jawa-12b.html
http://www.toysrgus.com/jawa-bubbles.html
http://www.ncf.ca/~cn333/vcjawa.htm
http://www.12back.com/features/vcjawa/vcjawa.php3

Do you see what I mean? It's not that I want people to get ripped off-- far from it. It just bothers me that people don't do research before making such a big purchase. And the fact is the information is out there, readily available and there are *tons* of people willing to help like you and me. When someone ignores this information, it's simply because they don't care to look for it in the first place. Do you see my point?
-Isaac

[ 01-26-2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Isaac S. Lew ]
 
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