Invisible Reseals

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"I reiterate that I did not cut any part of the card or bubble!!!"

This has to be impossible since the graphic has been lifted from the card. The graphic MUST have been lifted/cut since the money order was placed between the bubble and card.

Boba Ho-Tep, Everyone makes mistakes, even doctors that have PHD's. The difference between you and him is that he is offering a professional service to customers, and it seems to be the best one out there right now. Maybe they are not the absolute best graders on the entire planet. For now, they are the best graders on the planet that are offering a grading service. No grading company of any product that is done by humans can be 100% accurate. There is a demand for a grading service by collectors, and these collectors are going to search out the best service available. AFA is the best service available at this time, and they are doing the best job that they know how to do.

Chris Mueller
 
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I understand that people make mistakes, but I don’t feel like I’m being overly harsh in my criticism of AFA.

Scott Fender, you’ve stated:

“Jeremy pre-screened it and I looked it over to confirm the grade. He and I certainly may have overlooked this flaw…”

You later state:

“Today was actually the first day we began using the panel grading system, which ensures grading accuracy by requiring a percentage of figures be re-graded by a different grader to ensure our consistency is as high as possible.”

Now, since AFA JUST began panel grading today, and Jeremy showed you the Ackbar (weeks ago) to confirm the grade. I must assume Jeremy is your apprentice. As a master, wouldn’t you have been especially careful to check it thoroughly so as to teach him by his mistakes, while maintaining corporate integrity? How did the “x” get by both of you, and how is it thus reassuring for you to state AFA has began panel grading as of today?

Furthermore, regarding this quote from your post:

“It is my understanding after reading this thread, that this type of reseal is known as ‘invisible’, hence my reluctance to state at present how we can detect it in the future…”

It is my understanding that experts that take money for grading authenticity and quality are familiar with the concept that all counterfeits are supposed to look like the genuine article…hence counterfeiters ALWAYS aim for their counterfeits to be INVISIBLE. People pay you to look for the invisible- and you couldn’t even see the obvious.

It’s time to give some criticism to the critics.
 
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Is AFA going to stop collecting money for authentication work whilst this matter is resolved in a months time.
Quote:p.S. Please be sure to look for our follow-up Rebelscum thread and findings regarding this technique in about a month.
$37.50 is a bit steep in my books for experts who's reputation rides with training wheels
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For the sake of the collectors community if Airdevon is willing to disclose her solid gold secret to only a handful of individuals, what makes them so special. We should all have the right to know whats going on, so we can make our own decisions on Authenticity when purchasing and not have to shell out Big Bucks for a half rate second opinion. I would appreciate feedback from other members as to whether every one should be told the technique
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, A select handful of VIP's
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, or No one should be told
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It's amazing the level of perfection many of you guys expect. Clearly many of you don't like AFA, and are simply using this situation as a reason to discredit them. There's no other explanation for the harshness of the criticism, and the unwillingness to acknowledge that people make mistakes and that 1 mistake out of thousands does not tarnish what they've accomplished, and does not nullify their mission statement. So 1 mistake, and they need to take "Authority" out of their name, huh? And ASE Certified Master Mechanics NEVER misdiagnose a car, doctors NEVER make mistakes, art and antique experts are NEVER incorrect about the origin or era of an item, etc. One mistake and they should all take down their shingle, huh? Jeez, some of you guys are the "Mommy Dearests" of collecting!
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Is AFA going to stop collecting money for authentication work whilst this matter is resolved in a months time.
<font size="2" face="arial">Yeah, everyone hold onto your yellow-bubbled, C6 Ackbars, Lograys, and Rancor Keepers you've been looking to get authenticated until this is worked out!
 
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This so called 1 mistake that keeps on popping up its bantha fodder frequently is the only documented and proven mistake. In any other situation it would be instantly dismissed as some heckler trying to cause trouble. If it were not for the fact Airdevon put a unmistakable letter X AFA and the rest of the collecting community would not listen to her story as being credible for a second. To not notice a letter X on a white figure is unexcusable , especially if it were inspected by 2
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Experts????
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Hey Starwars Authority I see that since you call yourself a 'authority' you obviously have never made a mistake and know everything about Star Wars from the films to collectibles. So as an authority who never makes mistakes we must all take your word on everything you say. This has to be true since if it wasn't you be a fraud for wrongfully using the term.
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Quote:
Yeah, everyone hold onto your yellow-bubbled, C6 Ackbars, Lograys, and Rancor Keepers you've been looking to get authenticated until this is worked out!

Yes, they should…and they should also hold on to their C-9 Jawas, C10 Skywalkers, etc…it doesn’t matter what the figure is…it matters that they are advertising a service and a level of professional integrity and clearly not delivering…Again, I don’t feel my criticism is harsh- I have no particular grudge against AFA …this is just common sense.

quote: “…and ASE Certified Master Mechanics NEVER misdiagnose a car, doctors NEVER make mistakes, art and antique experts are NEVER incorrect about the origin or era of an item, etc “

If a doctor makes a mistake, he can be sued for malpractice, if a mechanic makes a mistake, he can be sued for negligence…Just because AFA has a monopoly on grading, does not make them any less accountable for their business morality than any other entrepreneurial venture.

Another point…why is everyone that is defending the AFA saying that this is one mistake in thousands, what kind of evidence is there of these numbers?…..hmmm, I didn’t think so.

Of course those of you that have huge$$$ invested in AFA graded figures might not want to hear this (and I don’t blame you)…but the AFA aren’t God and I don’t have to believe blindly in them and neither does any other collector. We have a right to ask questions and be answered in a direct and professional fashion.

If the AFA are truly concerned with improving their service, they would be able to respond to the points I made in my last post on an open forum… for all to hear.
 
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This is definitely a worthwhile challenge for
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Airdevon , originally posted by Rebel Scum Member Ben Sheehan.
Quote:Originally posted by rocketjawa:
Oh yeah, making a somewhat intricate piece of DT plastic is WAY harder than cutting brown vinyl..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hate to be rude, but can you even read? I'm not saying you're simple, but there's a whole lot more to this idea than you're able to see right now.

For starters, exactly what shape are you going to cut that brown vinyl into?

I'll go one better than John - I'll give you the public apology and $1000 if you can make an ESB VC Jawa that could fool Chris or myself.
 
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OOPS,SORRY ROCKET JAWA,
THIS IS THE ACTUAL QUOTE BY BEN SHEEHAN:

I hate to be rude, but can you even read? I'm not saying you're simple, but there's a whole lot more to this idea than you're able to see right now.

For starters, exactly what shape are you going to cut that brown vinyl into?

I'll go one better than John - I'll give you the public apology and $1000 if you can make an ESB VC Jawa that could fool Chris or myself.
 
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I think we should all be told this technique, so those who will not use AFA like myself are enfranchised to graded and authenicate the seals ourselves on the figures we buy, Airedevon shouldnt have to sign the 'official secrets act' on this. This is about openess, empowerment and accountability.
 
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Originally posted by mav5:
I think we should all be told this technique, so those who will not use AFA like myself are enfranchised to graded and authenicate the seals ourselves on the figures we buy, Airedevon shouldnt have to sign the 'official secrets act' on this. This is about openess, empowerment and accountability.
<font size="2" face="arial">I agree in theory, but how many collectors post in this board - 6000ish? There are probably more SW collectors in NY or London. However a large amount of frauds seem to find their way to the board (June14200's brother, and numerous other ebay sellers who have tried to sell fake items with info gained from here).

My point being that it would be impossible to educate the entire vintage SW community, however in attempting to do so you would be announcing the method to fraudulent sellers worldwide.
 
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MaxI am a ebay seller from time to time... I sware on my entire vint. SW. collection that I will not benifit from this info. , and I am holding on to that ESB Pali. 30 Back Fett reseal as well !!
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tk4212 as far as refering to Star Wars Authority as not being of any authority, who gave you authority, to say Star Wars Authority is of no authority to say what he feels, and may know. I mean come on here folks, Star Wars Authority is at least giving us sum Comic-Relief here..... !!!
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Also, Star Wars Authority , as for AFA and Airedevon to come out an publicly announce how to perform such an operation on a carded figure. I personally think its just a matter of time that word will get out-leek, and those of us in the collecting community who want to know how to do it, will then learn how to do it
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Patience Dainel Son...... I mean Luke.... I mean.. ahhhhhhh????
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Thank you Scott for writing to us all on this matter, any further info/Updates/etc on this subject would be greatly appreciated..... Again, thank you.
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To carba-dyna-mite, what are you talking about when you say authority? If the Star Wars Authority can say what he wants about AFA then why can't I make assumptions about his "authority"? For you to say I can't makes you a hypocrite.
 
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it matters that they are advertising a service and a level of professional integrity and clearly not delivering
<font size="2" face="arial">The quality of any advertised service is measured by overall customer satisfaction. AFA has graded tens of thousands of figures. Judging by the prices they're getting on Ebay, I think people are pretty satisfied by the product. Based on this one isolated incident, you can't categorically state that they "clearly are not delivering" on their service. That statement doesn't hold water. AFA's customers will be the judges of what they are and are not delivering on. And they'll render their decision on that issue with their pocketbooks.

Another point…why is everyone that is defending the AFA saying that this is one mistake in thousands, what kind of evidence is there of these numbers?…..hmmm, I didn’t think so.
<font size="2" face="arial">Do you have evidence to the contrary? Please share if you know for a fact that has happened more than once.

Just because AFA has a monopoly on grading, does not make them any less accountable for their business morality than any other entrepreneurial venture.
<font size="2" face="arial">Come one now, this is by no means a MORALITY issue. Let's not make this more serious than it needs to be. Of course they're accountable like anyone else. They're accountable to their customers. And my point is, when a mechanic doesn't tighten a bolt tight enough, no one comes and rips his Master Mechanic certificate off the wall. Everyone is entitled to a mistake or oversight now and again. If he does it again and again, people will stop coming to him. Simple as that. He doesn't owe anyone else an explanation. As far as his "qualifications" to be a grader, as Tom Derby has said time and again, anyone who grades 2000 figures a month with a 99.9% satisfaction rating, can be called an authority pretty quickly. Who designates anyone to be an expert or an authority? It's not an elected position. It comes from experience and success. If you can do better, then by all means go ahead!

[ 11-19-2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: mattmc1973 ]
 
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Originally posted by cstoj:
Actually its .0001
<font size="2" face="arial">Crap, Augie beat me to it. You're both right. FRC was correct when he said it's .01%. The moment you slap the percent sign next to the number, you've got to slide the decimal over a couple spots. .0001 = .01%, which is the correct number! So you both win a prize - a nice invisibly resealed figure of your choice!
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[ 11-19-2002, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: JediMAC ]
 
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tk4212: What do I mean by what should be considered a Authority on Star Wars. I suppose anyone can call themselves an authority....but are they one ??!! Personally, I think that status should be left to the real High-profile SW. collectors- who have been collecting+been in the market for many years with that experience(Chris G., Tom Derby, Gus Lopez, Ron S., Todd C. .... thats about it off hand). Thats what I characterize as being an authority. Maybe someday I will be an authority
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As for Star Wars Authority is concerned, this is a free/open forum, where anyone can come on and say just about anything they choose(except profain words). Please give him/her there just-due respect on the matter, and if anything give them creative critisizm on what you think on the subject(a little experience doesn't hurt either).
Just my .02(as if it matters any
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)
Peace to the streets...
 
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Originally posted by Tom@CloudCity.Com:
Even if they have made a few mistakes, 1 in 10,000 is .001% margin of error.
<font size="2" face="arial">Errm - wouldn't that be a .01% margin?
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Go to the back of the class
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Anyhow, pedentry aside, my 1.27 pence worth:

- Can somebody post the pictures on this forum? I'm very wary of subscribing to any service using my current e-mail addy (damn spammers).

- I don't think the 'x' on the back of a figure should really be considered a factor unless it leaps out at you (need the pics to be sure of this). There would be no reason to expect such a mark to be on a figure, so no reason to look for it in particular. Forgers aren't in the habit of marking figures in this way.

- Much as I am very curious as to how this figure was resealed, I'd be a lot happier if the exact methodology wasn't revealed in a public forum. You only have to see how many people place bids on Meccano VC jawas to know that there is enough ignorance of fakes in the collecting community to make scams like this worthwhile.
 
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Originally posted by Full-on Robbot Chubby:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="arial">Originally posted by Tom@CloudCity.Com:
Even if they have made a few mistakes, 1 in 10,000 is .001% margin of error.
<font size="2" face="arial">Errm - wouldn't that be a .01% margin?
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Go to the back of the class
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Anyhow, pedentry aside, my 1.27 pence worth:

- Can somebody post the pictures on this forum? I'm very wary of subscribing to any service using my current e-mail addy (damn spammers).

- I don't think the 'x' on the back of a figure should really be considered a factor unless it leaps out at you (need the pics to be sure of this). There would be no reason to expect such a mark to be on a figure, so no reason to look for it in particular. Forgers aren't in the habit of marking figures in this way.

- Much as I am very curious as to how this figure was resealed, I'd be a lot happier if the exact methodology wasn't revealed in a public forum. You only have to see how many people place bids on Meccano VC jawas to know that there is enough ignorance of fakes in the collecting community to make scams like this worthwhile.
</font>[/QUOTE]<font size="2" face="arial">Actually its .0001
 
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Full On,

You can use a bogus email address to access the pics.

cstoj,

Because it's expressed as a percentage, I think Full On is right. In other words its .0001 or .01%.
 
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is there something known already from the new figure's that would be send to grade?
 
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Originally posted by floffy:
is there something known already from the new figure's that would be send to grade?
<font size="2" face="arial">Rock on Smoke Dog . . . err . . . floffy.
 
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Maybe I missed it, but has anything happened from the figures that were supposed to be sent in for additional grading...

Anyone???

Thanks,

sp00ky
 
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Originally posted by sp00ky:
Maybe I missed it, but has anything happened from the figures that were supposed to be sent in for additional grading...
<font size="2" face="arial">Ya know, I'd like to know the same thing. After this happened I was emailed by Scott and asked to be the impartial that knew all the info. I was told that both parties had agreed to me. I was game. They told me they would be in touch. After about a week I emailed to see what happened. Scott told me he was going to call Airedevon later that day and that he was going to email me when he got in touch with her. Then he would LMK all the details. That was on Nov. 26th. I haven't heard from either of them so I have no idea.

John
 
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Sounds like its been quietly swept under the rug. could we be seeing the first stage of the inevitable fall of AFA?
 
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AFA to fall, Hmm. I remember them saying that they were in fact not going to release any info on how the reseal was done.
Also on this forum we probably only count for 2%, if that much, of their business, so the downfall is probably not in the near future.
Phil

[ 01-14-2003, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: phillip johnson ]
 
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Hmmmmmmmm

IMO this caused enough of an uproar it shouldn't be ALLOWED to die.

Hopefully somehthing happens,

sp00ky
 
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Nonetheless, how can their grading system be considered trustworthy after that? This case alone makes me not want to become one of their customers.
 
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just to chime in real quick.

the bubbles and card start seperated, and have to be glued togethere. There is probably more than 1 process for successfully removing a bubble from a card without any damage to the card or bubble. and from their resealing wouldnt be that hard.

the idea that there would be a infaluble resource to detect this kind of handy work would be ridiculous, forgery is a science, and as new ways of forging stuff is figured out, people working against it just have to get with the times is all.
 
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does that mean the grader should shrug it off, take the customer's money and "grade" it anyhow?

The point of the grading is to prove that it is a certain quality, and in this case, it is anything but.

AFA should have determined that it was a reseal and refused it. That is the entire point. As soon as something like this comes to light, how can the grader ever be trusted.

Personally speaking, I'd question anything by the grader, or in this case the company that is doing the grading.

When the time comes for me to buy figures like the vinyl cape Jawa or POTF Anakin, I wouldn't trust an AFA sealed, graded figure after reading this. The fact that Scott Fender admitted to the validity of this Ackbar claim, all my faith in AFA disappeared and I'll never get it back again.

If one fake got through there grading, who is to say that another didn't, or that many didn't?

Note: Anything and everything I have written in this thread is my opinion and not necessarily shared by anyone else at Rebelscum or Rebelscum as a whole. Please do not consider anything I say here to be a representation of anything other than my own concerns as a vintage collector.

[ 01-15-2003, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: Dave ]
 
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the invisible reseal I can get over... but the big "X" on his back?? that one should have been caught no matter what!
 
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Then do not use them. That is an easy enough answer.
Like I said earlier this forum probably only accounts for 2% of their business.
Phil
 
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Dear Dave.

It is important to understand the circumstances surrounding this issue and not confuse people reading this topic for the first time. The 'invisible reseal' technique has not been proved successful except under the most trivial conditions (each can draw his own opinion about this). I say this because it was an AFA 40 yellow bubble Admiral Ackbar (please don't turn this into a discussion again because all bases have been covered and the topic would last forever - to each his own opinion). Would this happen on another figure? Who knows? To my knowledge, no others were ever sent in, so we'll have to wait and see.

More importantly however, is the use of this technique in the real world. Could someone please give an example of when this comes into play except on a double-telescoping figure or possibly a small head Han on an ESB card? One could deduct that unless you are buying those figures, it is not a valid concern. If I were buying those figures, I would heavily research my source, inspect them myself, and have them inspected at AFA. I am quite sure a lot of time would be put into studying them by all parties involved. If nothing could be found to denote tampering, I would accept them as real. There always exists the possibility that someone will develop new techniques of forgery which would fool even an expert. This is common in any collectible or antique industry. I would say that if AFA has graded 20,000 figures and has made one mistake (in an instance described previously in this thread) out of 20,000, I like my odds. Any company will make mistakes. We are all human.

What concerns me most though about the continuation of this topic beyond the valid question of 'What were the follow-up findings for this experiment?' is that you seem to be taking an opportunity to exploit this one mistake to 'plug' a new grading service which you have inside knowledge about. As a forum moderator, I don't agree with (what I see as) your biased assumption that a 'new grading service' would not make mistakes and would be superior from the start.

Don't get me wrong. I think competition is healthy in any industry, so that the quality of the service or goods provided keeps improving. I would even consider using a new service if they proved time and time again that they were more consistent with superior cases than those used by AFA. I believe the chances of this occurring are slim, but certainly not impossible. We will see how well this service can establish that reputation and we can draw conclusions after the company has been around for a while.

Lets cease using one line sentences to 'bump' this topic back to the top and if there are valid points for discussion after the second 'experiment' has been performed by Airedevon, then by all means we can discuss them at that time in a follow-up thread.

Thank You

Tom
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Tom,

I personally think the subject should remain in current conversation until all facts are known and this is rectified. The big problem here is the odds that you mentioned yourself. If one got by, who is to say a hundred didn't get by? …Or a thousand?

Personally, I don't agree with grading since it is sealing one person’s opinion into an acrylic case, but over time, the blister can still yellow, the figure can still get molded, and the card itself can still break down and fade. At best, the grade, in its own right, is a testament only to the moment it is sealed, but using that rational, every figure was at one time mint. I find the whole concept moot. For that reason, I don't own a single graded toy, nor would I ever purchase one.

The fact that this subject came to light just shows that the one thing a collector should be able to trust --the integrity of the toy and its packaging-- is now in question.

As for the other thread you refer to, I brought up the other grader because the original post was how to hang graded figures and the packaging of this other company has a hanger on the back. There was no ulterior motive. The other posts placed afterwards, though influenced by my feelings of this topic, were nothing more than continuing the conversation.

I won’t lie, I do not like AFA all too much. Not because of the people involved –that includes you Tom, who I respect a great deal for your selling veracity-- but because many collectors (whom of which I agree only 2% likely come here) see their grading as gospel, and here is a case that contradicts that.

I have nothing to gain, either way, in this discussion, but as a collector I find this subject to warrants the stink being made. It seems to me (my own opinion here people) that there are people with financial interests in AFA who want nothing more than to see the X Back Ackbar ; quietly fade away into oblivion.

If it would comfort my fellow forum members, in regard to this topic, I will gladly never mention another grading company in these forums again, but I will not leave this conversation until I’m fully comfortable with it and ready to. I think that is fair and encourage others to chime in whether they agree with me or not.

The fact that I keep coming back to this thread is because the subject is intriguing and is worth my time and thoughts.

[ 01-15-2003, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Dave ]
 
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