Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

[NCFC]

Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Hi everyone,

I am new to this message board. I have been collecting Star wars toys for 8 years focusing on carded figures & palitoy boxed items.

I can remember seeing a hoth stormtrooper with grey arms & legs in about 95. Does anybody know anything about this figure? I think it may have been a palitoy prototype?

 

[newswseller]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Im pretty sure those hoth stormtroopers were fake, heres a link to one on the archive: http://www.toysrgus.com/images-produ/HOTH.html

 

[JohnA]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

It's fake. We never updated the page on the Archive but Steve York said he saw one of them in person and the arms/ legs are painted grey.

John

 

[Lee_Bullock]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

John,

I must say these are not in my opinion fake in the collector sense of the word. There are ones out there that are molded in grey plastic, I know this because Ive seen them. I heard from a collector friend whose opinion I trust that these were nothing more than factory mistakes, and about 11 years ago a guy was selling a big box full on a car boot sale in Leicestershire (Coalville is in Leics) and my friend Ian bought 3 at the time. I wouldnt say they are prototypes BUT I wouldnt say they are fakes made for the collectors market either.

Just my opinion.

 

[MarkG]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Those 'grey limbed' Hoth Troopers started appearing in the UK in the late 80's. So customs /repros are not exactly a new idea.

There have been a few discussions about these, and there authenticity, and I'm sure it ended the same way as the mythical Gold Hat Bespin Guard.....A clever bootleg.

BillyBoy likes these kind of discussions, as they have stumped him for many years. Maybe he could chime in with his 10p worth.

 

[StarWarsMuseum]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

They are fake!!!
Jason Joiner was making them in the UK and he started bringing them to the states back in 84'
He was selling them along with some other fake "prototypes" for $75-$125.
Take care,
Todd D

 

[Yak]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

In a word - dodgy!

 

[Lee_Bullock]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Originally posted by StarWarsMuseum:
They are fake!!!
Jason Joiner was making them in the UK and he started bringing them to the states back in 84'
He was selling them along with some other fake "prototypes" for $75-$125.
Take care,
Todd D

<font size="2" face="arial">Woah! this is a new one on me. It was Jason Joiners stall that I saw it on about 1990. I didnt know however he was faking protos! I have had my own opinion of him that I keep very close to my chest. This still doesnt account for the ones found in the Leicestershire area... Im at a loss on this issue.

 

[NCFC]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Thanks for the response guys. Know I know they are fakes I don't think I will bother looking out for one.

And yes I am a Notts County fan!

 

[ramjet]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Originally posted by NCFC:
Hi everyone,

I am new to this message board. I have been collecting Star wars toys for 8 years focusing on carded figures & palitoy boxed items.

I can remember seeing a hoth stormtrooper with grey arms & legs in about 95. Does anybody know anything about this figure? I think it may have been a palitoy prototype?

<font size="2" face="arial">welcome on board

 

[Full_on_Robbot_Chubby]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

I've heard the same tale as Lee about these turning up at a boot sale. I've heard about both moulded and painted arms.

I think there could be two separate stories.

I would speculate that *perhaps* there was a genuine find of figures with grey cast limbs. I'd hesitate to call such a thing a prototype - maybe some kind of routine test shot? I'm not totally convinced of this given a) the account amounts to little more than hearsay; and b) I've never seen an example. The rumour has been around for a long, long time, and is pretty widespread in the UK.

It may then be possible that someone, having heard of this find, decided to fake some by painting the limbs of production figures.

Hence the painted ones are probably bogus (though not definitely - I've not seen one to judge the quality), whereas anything moulded in this colour is more likely to be legitimate.

In some ways it comes down to the 'why bother?' factor.

For:

Unusual figure to choose - most fakers go for something bigger
I believe that these didn't change hands for much money at the time (so why bother faking?)

Against:

A very common figure in the UK, raw material is plentiful.
It may have been done for egotistical rather than financial reasons.

 

[Guest]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

I dont think it's fake....at least the one I have doesnt look to be. I got it about 8 years ago from the English dealer Jason Joiner. The legs and arms are DEFINATELY not painted!!

 

[Guest]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Thats mine in the Archive! Isn't it possible that someone saw that the grey limbed Snowtrooper was rare and just painted a regular one?

 

[MarkG]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Originally posted by Gold 6:
Thats mine in the Archive! Isn't it possible that someone saw that the grey limbed Snowtrooper was rare and just painted a regular one?

<font size="2" face="arial">It's very easy to paint a figure, but the moulded version is the one that cropped up many years ago.

There has never been any 'solid' evidence to say that these things are genuine.

Jason Joiner seemed to be the 'only' person to have these, no-one else had ever heard of them. They came from nowhere, just like the 'Gold Hat Bespin Guard'.

He stated that the G-H-B-G was a UK chain store exclusive figure, but no-one ever recalls seeing that offer, even people that used to work in those stores back then never saw them.

It may 'look' real, but custom moulding is nowhere near a 'new' thing.

Until some real hard proof comes to light about these, they will be regarded as bootlegs / fakes.

 

[Lee_Bullock]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Did Jason have the gold hat Bespin Guard as well?
I remember at the time he also had an unpainted Boba Fett with no rocket mech (Like production version, no slot) for 150 GBP...

 

[oceans11]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

i actually have one of these things that has the arms and legs painted grey. a nice solid paint job on the arms and legs, though there are a couple of spots where the white underneath is showing as the paint wore off. also it looks like someone tried to touch it up at one point also, so there are a couple of spots that are darker grey. the odd thing about the one i have is that it is a YPS version of the hoth stormtrooper.

and here's the part where i fess up... this was one of the first prototype figures that i got way back when i first started expanding my collecting horizons and before i even knew about these boards. i paid a bit too much for it (nothing earth shattering but definitely more than it is worth) based on prototype and while it was revealed to be a fake, i still hold onto it. i think it is pretty cool in a customized, fake prototype, sort of sense. as per others, i have never seen anything to legitimize that these figures (either the grey molded or painted limbed version) were prototypes, first shots,e tc.

 

[MarkG]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Originally posted by Lee Bullock:
Did Jason have the gold hat Bespin Guard as well?

<font size="2" face="arial">There was a fairly recent thread about the GHBG. It also included a link to an Ebay auction that the seller was Jason Joiner.

He 'claimed' that they were UK Debenhams store exclusives back in the 80's, but NOTHING has ever been proved truthful about this either.

Just seems strange that 2 figures have come from him, but have had NO offical documentation or confirmation to say they are real.

 

[Bernie_Holmes]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Hello ncfc, welcome to the forums, i assume you are a notts county fan, if so good win today.

 

[Shane Turgeon]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Actually, the last GHBG on eBay was not from Jason Joiner but from another well-known UK collector. While nothing concrete has been proven about the Debenhams story, there really hasn't been a whole lot besides heresay to disprove the figure either. I have heard that some paperwork has surfaced regarding the promotion (granted i haven't seen it first hand) but until something CONCRETE comes out disproving it's legitimacy, i'm of the opinion that it could very well be a legit promo, Palitoy created or otherwise. Keep in mind that over the years a great many figures and items have been "rumored" and/or hard to provide provenance on but sure enough, over time the info came around and these items have become recognized for what they are.

As far as the grey limbed Snowtroopers go, i've bascially heard the same story as many of the UK collectors that have already posted. It's a tough call but i definately don't think the molded ones are "fake" or custom, nor do i think they're protos...could very well be that a batch got screwed up and shot in the wrong colour and someone somehow got a hold of them and sold them at boot sales.

 

[Ringo Davil]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

With how easy it is to fake the GHBG, I wouldn't believe it unless I (or someone I trust as an authority on such things) was able to examine one. Until such point, I'd consider the one example I know as to be a fake. Adding to that, the owner, who has 'tried' selling it always backs out at the last moment...

 

[Ringo Davil]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

A thought on the Gray limb Snowtrooper: Whith all the mould colour variations with thr Tri Logo line, there is a good chance that this is just another in the ever expanding list... no hard proof, of course, but considering that they (the moulded ones) appear to come out of Europe, it sounds like a good place to start researching. Of course, until one shows up carded, it's origin and authenticity will always be in question.

 

[Yak]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

Originally posted by Full-on Robbot Chubby:

Unusual figure to choose - most fakers go for something bigger
I believe that these didn't change hands for much money at the time (so why bother faking?)

<font size="2" face="arial">Not really. Back in the late '80's and early '90's you couldn't give away incomplete Hoth Stormtroopers or White Bespin guards! Unless your Jason Joiner with some **** and bull 'proto' story and a jar of grey paint and a handful of 'gold' pens. I'm sorry for all the people who paid money for these, but thats the way it is.

And as for having to prove the fact that these are fakes, thats ridiculous. I have a bunch of figures with the letter 'P' on their foot, can you prove to me that Palitoy didn't write that on them? Nope! However in the same way a guy called Paul wrote that letter 'P' on their foot a guy called Jason scribbled Gold pen on the bespin guards and grey pain on the Hoth troopers. I suspect Jasons reasons for doing it were somewhat different however.

People have been looking for proof of these for over ten years and NONE has ever surfaced. Its such a stupidly naive story its really getting boring after all these years!

 

[Lee_Bullock]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

I take it you are not one of Jasons greatest fans then, eh Yak!!!

 

[Yak]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

lol

It does seem that way but really I've got nothing against him at all

 

[Steve_York]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

I've seen a number of thess in the southern California area; a few at Time Traveler Toys and Super Collector four to six years back. Both were stores where Jason Joiner had a booth or consigned things (not fully sure on the Super Collector relationship, but I've seen his pieces being sold there before). The prices were $149.99 and $200 (One was at Time Travelever while Super Collector had two or three); they were clearly being sold as prototypes then (the price sticker reflected this with prototype written in and I asked a guy who worked at the store then).

I saw at least three of them (maybe a fourth depending on what was at Super Collector); they had some sort of flecking on two of them and had white specks underneath. Is it possible there are ones with grey cast limbs? Possibly, but the ones I saw certainly were painted or coated.

Now I don't believe these are prototypes in any way; they don't match up to anything else produced and the grey limbs are just odd. Is it possible it was a bootleg or vintage custom (perhaps produced for a department store as mentioned) but these are/were not prototypes from what I in person. As mentioned (I didn't realize it before as I'd never seen a European Snowtrooper body torso until a few years later and could identify as so) they did have the kinda crummy welded and plastic torsos on them. Now some bootlegers used unused torsos and added their own limbs (the Mexican Chewbaccas using Ledy torsos come to mind which used bootleg limbs or existing pieces) so its possible its similar to that and would explain them showing up in the mid-1980s. Its certainly not unheard of for bootlegers to use existing parts; especially if these fully originated from Europe. The Snowtroopers seem to have been produced in large numbers in Europe at the end of the line as well.

Or they could have just been a batch of fakes that turned up all at once.

 

[oceans11]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

originally posted by Steve York

The prices were $149.99 and $200...

<font size="2" face="arial">ok, i don't feel bad since i didn't pay that much for the one that i have.

ok, here's my question... what version of the figure are these grey limbs turning up on?

like i said, the one that i have, upon inspection, is the YPS version. limbs clearly were painted/coated making them grey with a few white spots showing through. also the two black marks on the front of the figure (part of the chestplate) seem to be worn down on the one that i have (maybe like they were melted).


don

 

[Billy_Boy]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

WOW! = I love all the speculation surrounding this figure?!


This is what I know / have observed about the 'grey limbed' Snowtrooper...

The first time I saw an example was in 1986 at a Toy Fair in Sevenoaks, Kent! There was about 20 specimens (with accessories) amongst a large box of sealed Star Wars baggies and other loose figures (including some Care Bears*) on a stall! = I remember asking about them and the stallholder just 'shrugged' and said everything in the box came from the Palitoy factory! I clearly recall finding the figures 'odd', but I was collecting mainly Blade Runner and Alien items at the time, so I didn't buy any of them! = Even though I think they were probably only priced at about 50p each!?

I didn't see any again until October next year at the 1987 World Science Fiction Convention in Brighton, East Sussex! A UK stallholder had two or three 'loose/complete' examples for sale for about £10 each! = I remember feeling 'annoyed' at not buying them the previous year so I purchased two for about £18! (I believe Jason Joiner possibly bought the remaining example from the same seller too!) = I was now avidly collecting Star Wars items and I therefore paid a 'whopping' £80 for my Droids A-Wing fighter (from Jason) and bought a few Star Wars carded figures from various US and Canadian stallholders too!

The following year (1988) I purchased another 'loose/complete' example from a Toy Fair in Crawley, West Sussex! I think it was only about £6 or £8 too!? Later that year I attended a tiny Sci-Fi fair at a hall near the Sudbury Hill 'Tube Station' in London. = Jim Stevenson, David Oliver, The 'Sheffield Space Centre' and Jason Joiner were all present! = Jason had some great items on his stall, including some large etched mirrors 'he obtained' from the 1987 Starlog/Creation Conventions 'First 10 Years' celebration! + He also had a 'grey limbed' Snowtrooper for sale at about £50!!! = I believe he referred to it as a 'prototype' too!?

I can vaguely remember 'chatting' about the figure and 'questioning' his asking price?! = I do however distinctly remember buying a load of carded figures from Jim and a nice carded RotLA Indy figure from David!

From then on... I can only recall ever seeing Jason with those 'grey limbed' Snowtroopers on his stall?! = The price soon went up to about £75-£100 by the early 1990's too!

In 1993 I sold nearly all of my carded, most of my loose and half of my boxed Star Wars collection to help 'fund' my education! = I also personally sold the three 'grey limbed' Snowtroopers at Toy Fairs (probably at Lancing, Worthing or Brighton?), for about £60-£75 each!
= I actually raised enough money that year to get me through my Degree AND Masters too!

The 'grey limbed' Snowtroopers I originally owned weren't that 'interesting' to me at that time?! BUT... I can remember clearly that the limbs were MOULDED grey and that the capes had round holes and the figures themselves were similar to the 'Tri Variant' (I HATE the term 'YPS'

), as they were made of a harder plastic and hence appeared to have 'finer' details! These Tri Snowtroopers (which first appeared on the Palitoy 65bk), were around a LOT in the late 1980's in the UK! I remember seeing the odd box-full of them at Toy Fairs! = The 'grey limbed' versions were certianly very similar in 'finish' and construction too!

In about 1996 I attended a Toy Fair in Farnham, Surrey. I was a student there and wasn't really 'collecting' at the time! I remember seeing a stall with some 'custom' Rocket Fetts (being sold as 'authentic'!

) and a 'grey limbed' Snowtrooper! = That particular figure (priced at £125!) was just a regular HK figure with PAINTED grey limbs! = 'DODGY'!!!

Many figures have acquired 'mythological status' here in the UK?! = I'd honestly love to hear Jason Joiner's opinion of these figures? + I'd love to have an indepth disscussion on 'gold hatted' BSGs with Chris Harper ...I'm sure he said he'd got some 'supporting paperwork' on those too!?

= I 'can't be ****d' to speculate on the actual 'reasons' for the exsistence of these original MOULDED limbs Snowtroopers? = I've always just 'assumed' they were a either a 'test', a 'faulty batch' or just some factory employee using up some 'spare' plastic during the demise of the Palitoy factory!?

*= I can honestly remember that some of those Care Bears figures had 'very odd' mis-matched limbs too!!!

Bill

 

[Yak]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

The doubters (i.e. me) stand corrected

 

[Full_on_Robbot_Chubby]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

So my 'painted=fake, moulded=real' hypothesis is probably correct?

Where do I collect my prize?

What sort of finish do the painted examples have - does it look hand painted, or is someone using something more sophisticated like an airbrush? Is it a similar grey to the arms of an At-At driver?

I'm sure one theory I once heard was that they were to test the painting process for the At-At Driver figure (which did come in the next series of figures, so this is feasible). Don't you love the mythology of vintage collecting!?

 

[garindan]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

I must admit that I am in full agreement with billy boy here. I have one of these fabled hoth snowtroopers with grey legs, and they are grey MOULDED (or at least they SHOULD be!), and I know this cos I nearly ripped one of the legs right off to check right into the leg holes. They are also the 'hard plastic' as referenced with the YPS hoth stormtroopers that were manufactured by Palitoy UK and shipped over to Germany. they also exhibit inperfections in the plastic with a couple of tiny white areas and some darker grey areas.

My theory has always been that these were test run figures for the eventual hard plastic YPS hoth snowtroopers. They certianly look and feel like them, and would be the only reason I can think of as to why it is a hoth snowtrooper and appears slightly different. I would also not find surprising that a bunch would be found together - from a test run of one figure especially. The fact that hundreds of them have not been found also helps this theory, I believe.

I'd like to hear any other accounts though!

On the topic of the painted leg ones - I'd say that they may have originated from one of the many rip-off merchants in the UK anxious to get some more money for normal hoth snowtroopers!. I can even think of someone who may even have been responsible for this. I won't be brought to name him though - and it isn't Jason Joiner or anyone else mentioned so far in this thread.

Personally I think that if you are lucky enough to have one of the real versions of this figure then you have a very interesting piece of history from the palitoy factory.

 

[jangofettuk]

Re: Hoth Stormtrooper with grey arms & legs

any one have one of these snowtroopers with grey limbs moulded version not painted for sale ?

 

[squealer]

Hi, I'm an old school collector. Not been on here for years but saw this discussion and had to chip in. I have got one of these stormtroopers. I bought it from a car boot sale near Coalville in the early 90s from a kid who was having a clear out. In my opinion these are genuine not fake. As someone else has pointed out they may be factory rejects etc but I have always felt that this figure is a gen item.

 

[porkinsred6]

Wow! quite the thread resurrection. These figures have been discussed at great length for decades here and other forums.

Gray Hoth Trooper facts and not fiction

Hi Everyone ok its time to clear up another untrue story that’s been going around for 20 years so let the debate begin and lets see the truth come out on here like it did on the Toni figures that history can be found and set straight. This forum has been a place that the truth can come out...

starwarsforum.co.uk

https://forum.rebelscum.com/threads/hoth-stormtrooper-w-gray-limbs.947597/

 

[Bjamin_S]

Just a reminder to everyone who has taken part in this thread, that these figures are discolored/degraded and not a test piece, as stated in this thread and elsewhere online.

In light of the chipping and partial discoloration that can be found on figures, the logical conclusion to draw is that they were not grey at the time they were produced. So there'd have been be no 'whoah this is a bad batch of white plastic that has turned grey' moment at Palitoy, or in the location they were made.

Logic also says that if they'd been grey and 'bad' right out of the mold, nobody would have bothered to sonic weld the grey limbs and torsos together. Vintage figures didn't pop right out of a mold and then get jammed into a figure's toros the moment they were made; they had to be assembled.

While folklore says that the grey limbed figures were bought near Palitoy, that fact (or otherwise) doesn't in any way definitively link them to the company's UK based injection molders. We do know for certain that Palitoy's figures were made in Asia, just like most Licensee's were. We also know that the company processed returns from all over Europe during Star Wars, and that they may have purchased large quantities from vendors at the death of the line with the hope that they could be sold into other markets at a discount (just like Kenner did).

While they're a neat story, and an intriguing part of UK collecting lore, there's nothing about them that suggests they're anything more significant historically speaking than other discolored figures such as the green neck Leia Bespin or green limbed Chewbacca (or brown caped Sanderson, Lando etc.).

This doesn't mean that UK based collectors might not value them higher than collectors in other markets. But they are a post production oddity rather than a true variation right out of the mold.

We can also comfortably scuttle the idea that they were part of some 'two part' process to save money on paint. Star Wars figures were made and decorated to be entirely cost effective. Paint applications were limited in a way that would have made the idea redundant. Even the figures poses reflect a desire to keep costs down.

Borrowing these two images of an example only partly degraded from an early poster in this thread:

 

[flycasual]

They come from an early PBP batch shipped to the UK.

 

[DJ121]

Is it possible that these particular figures may have been stored in Vader head cases? Whatever batch of plastic made might be off a bit, and more prone to picking up the pigment from the black plastic used in the Vader.

 

[Bjamin_S]

They come from an early PBP batch shipped to the UK.

We don’t know that, there’s no way to substantiate that idea. Would make more sense that it’s post line leftovers

No way to substantiate either idea though.

 

[Rezikai]

I think this is one of the gray limbed snowies that's been talked about on Chris Mcleod's FullForce Podcast showed it at the 27:34 mark of they're interview with Palitoy designer Bob Brechin. To me it looks injection molded and also that image is decades old, so probably not years of discoloration lol.

I commented on it and McLeod said it wasn't the 1st time it was thought of as a rumor/myth from the UK. They are a GiJoe Podcast so its possible he doesn't know the nerd debates that have raged on message boards for years about it lol.