Hidalgo On Luke In The Sequels

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This isn't remotely anything new, we've known Lucas also planned to have Luke in exile for some time now. What doesn't make sense to me is this notion that because it was a concept that pre-dates even Rian Johnson, that somehow nullifies any criticism it rightfully receives. How does knowing that change anything about the final product we got on screen? It doesn't. Firstly, what we know is simply that Lucas also had him go off on a sort of Yoda-like seclusion. That's all! That's extremely general, that may be all the two share in common. I don't find many people opposed to that, what we're opposed to is what was DONE with that idea. You can still have Luke in isolation and have it be ENTIRELY different. That is my issue. It never bothered me that he pulled an Obi-Wan or Yoda, what bothered me is what they did with that. It's out of character, it's riddled with camp gags, and ultimately a lot of scenes are rather pointless. It doesn't enhance the character of Luke Skywalker, it severely wounded. Secondly, stating Luke wasn't trying to kill him is an interpretation. There is no objective fact here, but honestly...it's kind of hard to believe he wasn't attempting to murder his nephew when you WATCH the freaking scene! Also regardless, we know he at least CONSIDERED it! Sure looks like it to me. Despite Pablo's status with Lucasfilm, regardless, he's not Rian and the film is vague on what the ultimate goal of Luke Skywalker was in the scene as it's abruptly cut short by Ben Solo. Simply put, we don't know or at the least don't know his intents at THIS time. Using your "authority" to basically gaslight excuse a poorly made and character shattering scene is rather...egotistical.
 
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Rian was very clear on how he made his "Decisions". he said he made a list of every character, and asked of each name on his list: "...what's the worst that could happen?"

for Rey: she's searching for her parents, waiting for them to one day return to her..
so the worst thing that could happen to Rey is she has no parents, and they're not coming back. she was abandoned by the side of the road like Joe Dirt.
because (*snicker snicker*) that's the exact opposite of what had been established for her character in the previous film. (and Rian lives in Opposite Land).

for Kylo: he killed Han Solo so he could sever his ties to his old life and "complete his training"..
so the worst thing that could happen to Kylo is, it made no difference. Snoke doesn't want to "complete his training", regardless. Killing Han made no difference to the plot.
because (*snicker snicker*) that's the exact opposite of what had been established for this character in the previous film. (and Rian lives in Opposite Land).

for Luke: Luke is the epitome of all HOPE in the universe. he is the walking, talking, embodiment of HOPE..
so the worst thing that could happen to Luke is, suicidal depression. he falls into DESPAIR, and declares out loud, that he ONLY went to that island to "die" (aka: to kill himself).
because (*snicker snicker*) that's the exact opposite of what had been established for this character in the previous films. (and Rian lives in Opposite Land).




^^ absolutely -NO- THOUGHT went into this process. Rian is a one-trick-pony.
this was his way of "!!SuBvErTinG EXpeCTaTioNS!!" *GASP* --- he gave us "Anti-Luke" (for the sake of it) --- *yawn*

^^ this was not clever. it was not original. and it was not necessary.
(to "erase" the childhood hero of an entire generation, disparage his character, and make him the epitome of "Despair" instead of "Hope").

Yes! the NuSW is all about Rey (not Luke) -- nobody wants to see another movie about "Luke" -- this is given.
but it was NOT necessary to destroy the chilhood hopes and dreams of an entire generation, just to shoe-horn a "new" generation of bored millennials into the frame.



imagine if ST : TNG had gone out of its way to depict Kirk&Spock as suicidal drunkards, taking a HUGE dump all over the legacy of beloved characters, in an effort to "sell" the idea of Picard and Data instead.
how would this effect the morale of the fanbase? --> would this "win over" lifelong fans of the franchise? --> why or why not?
 
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Rian was very clear on how he made his "Decisions". he said he made a list of every character, and asked of each name on his list: "...what's the worst that could happen?"

for Rey: she's searching for her parents, waiting foe them to one day return to her..
so the worst thing that could happen to Rey is she has no parents, and they're not coming back. she was abandoned by the side of the road like Joe Dirt.
because (*s****** s*******) that's the exact opposite of what had been established for her character in the previous film. (and Rian lives in Opposite Land).

for Kylo: he killed Han Solo so he could sever his ties to his old life and "complete his training"..
so the worst thing that could happen to Kylo is, it made no difference. Snoke doesn't want to "complete his training", regardless. Killing Han made no difference to the plot.
because (*s****** s*******) that's the exact opposite of what had been established for this character in the previous film. (and Rian lives in Opposite Land).


for Luke: Luke is the epitome of all HOPE in the universe. he is the walking, talking, embodiment of HOPE..
so the worst thing that could happen to Luke is, suicidal depression. he falls into DESPAIR, and declares out loud, that he ONLY went to that island to "die" (aka: to kill himself).
because (*s****** s*******) that's the exact opposite of what had been established for this character. (and Rian lives in Opposite Land).




^^ absolutely -NO- THOUGHT went into this process. Rian is a one-trick-pony.
this was his way of "!!SuBvErTinG EXpeCTaTioNS!!" *GASP* --- he gave us "Anti-Luke" (for the sake of it) --- *yawn*

^^ this was not clever. it was not original. and it was not necessary. (to "erase" the childhood hero of an entire generation, and make him suicidal instead).

Yes! the NuSW is all about Rey (not Luke). nobody wants to see another movie about "Luke". this is given.
but it was NOT necessary to destroy the chilhood hopes and dreams of an entire generation, just to shoe-horn a "new" generation into the frame.



imagine if ST : TNG had gone out of its way to depict Kirk&Spock as suicidal drunkards, taking a HUGE dump all over these characters, in an effort to "**** up" Picard and Data instead.
how would this effect the morale of the fanbase? --> would this "win over" lifelong fans of the franchise? why or why not?
Well exactly, Lucas also wanted to place Luke in exile is ultimately irrelevant. It doesn't change what we got, it doesn't immunize the sheer awfulness of the actual final product. It's just a bar trivia factoid. Useless knowledge! Not to mention, like I said, it could have been done extremely differently. I find it very hard to believe that Lucas would have, for example, had the lightsaber toss and the milk chugging scenes. However...this apparent defense of the scenes, if that is what it is, is flawed on multiple angles far more than just that. If saying Lucas also planned some similar concepts is your defense for the scenes, is that really the right approach? Lucas!? I'm not convinced Lucas would have done it much better. Differently, sure, but...better? There's three movies out there that emphasize he himself lost the touch years ago.
 
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as for Luke killing Kylo : Higaldo is missing the point.

the easy way to explain Luke's exile is to say : "Luke gave up hope because Kylo turned to the dark side".
(this was JJ's intent in TFA, and most likely, it was GL's intent as well)

instead Rian gave us : "Kylo turned to the dark side because Luke gave up hope".
(betcha didn't see THAT coming!!! etc, etc.. blah blah blah
.. Rian lives in Opposite land).



it's derivative of GL's intent; not "Derived from" GL's intent.
(it's a parody-porn , without the porn).
 
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Pablo Hidalgo - Specialist subject: "Stating the bleeding obvious"

1. Yes we knew about George's outline.
2. Yes we understood it was a scene interpreted through different perspectives.

So some audience members didn't 'get it'? Then, allowing for the intellectually deficient ones, if it needs to be explained nearly 2 years later by a company 'Yes Man' IT IS BAD FILM-MAKING.
 
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Rian Johnson destroyed one of cinema's most iconic heroes, all for the sake of a cheap "gotcha" and no amount of "Lucas said it...", or "you don't get it" will change that. 'The Last Jedi' is a terribly written film from beginning to end, that's populated with awful characters and that includes Johnson's version of Luke Skywalker. It's been so incredibly damaging to Star Wars, as a whole, it's going to be impossible to recover it in a forward trajectory, in any way approaching a satisfactory manner.
 
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Rian Johnson destroyed one of cinema's most iconic heroes, all for the sake of a cheap "gotcha" and no amount of "Lucas said it...", or "you don't get it" will change that. 'The Last Jedi' is a terribly written film from beginning to end, that's populated with awful characters and that includes Johnson's version of Luke Skywalker. It's been so incredibly damaging to Star Wars, as a whole, it's going to be impossible to recover it in a forward trajectory, in any way approaching a satisfactory manner.
Well said. It seems to me that RJ's sole reason for starting the film right after TFA, was to have Luke toss the lightsaber over his shoulder. Those "gotcha" moments were a travesty for such an iconic character.

From what I've read of the Lucas outline, Luke still had a connection to the force, which JJ had originally planned for TFA, but change the scene a bit because RJ asked him too. I don't think JJ knew what RJ had planned anyway. The outline also has Luke training Kira or whatever her name was, meaning what was done in TLJ did not really come from GL.

I still think they should have had the old mains basically just say to the younger ones, "we did our part years ago, it's your turn." Having Han and Chewie go to Starkiller Base put them front and center. When the OT mains show up onscreen and take the reins, I instantly lose interest in the new ST characters.
 
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Well said. It seems to me that RJ's sole reason for starting the film right after TFA, was to have Luke toss the lightsaber over his shoulder. Those "gotcha" moments were a travesty for such an iconic character.
In fairness to Johnson, he didn't really have much of a choice as Abrams painted him into a corner by including a stupid cliffhanger in 'The Force Awakens'.

However, The playing field was open from there and Rian choose his next moves abysmally.

'The Force Awakens' should have ended with Rey and Chewie getting into the falcon and flying away to the system that the map revealed. When 'The Last Jedi' opens, we should see Rey, who has spent some time looking for Luke in that system - whatever it is - and she's near the end of a long search, when finally she stumbles upon Ach-To. Star Wars needs space to breathe between movies, otherwise we end up with silly scenarios like the First Order being in control of an entire galaxy after just one battle.

I still think they should have had the old mains basically just say to the younger ones, "we did our part years ago, it's your turn." Having Han and Chewie go to Starkiller Base put them front and center. When the OT mains show up onscreen and take the reins, I instantly lose interest in the new ST characters.
I'm increasingly of the opinion that it would have been better, over all, if the original three had been left out of the sequels altogether. Because they are, literally, only there to be killed off and it's all been handled so ineptly. Solo going out because he was a sap, Luke eliminating himself by using too much force, Leia's going to be off'ed in some disappointing way too. God knows what they'll do to Lando. Maybe he'll electrocute himself by sticking his manhood in some slot on the Millennium Falcon, because he hasn't seen his sexbot in 30+ years.

It's all just so meh.
 
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So some audience members didn't 'get it'? Then, allowing for the intellectually deficient ones, if it needs to be explained nearly 2 years later by a company 'Yes Man' IT IS BAD FILM-MAKING.
Bad film-making for a lot of STAR WARS fans, apparently. And if that sounds insulting? Well, take it how you want to take it. I surely do not mean it that way...especially not that "intellectually deficient" type way you referenced.

For clarity sake, I want to reiterate that this is referring to the three POV re-tellings of Luke's "dark moment".....so. yeah, the funny thing here IS, the whole "different POV" motif has been so strong in the SW series...as in: the "lie" that Obi-Wan told Luke about his father... or WAS IT A LIE? To me, that's yet another perfect connection to "original trilogy" Luke. And there's SO MUCH OF THAT in "Last Jedi" Luke.

Sounds like you're blaming Rian for not seeing stuff like that in there made obvious enough or frequent enough with the Luke character. It's all good. Again, maybe this movie wasn't for Star Wars fans. But, I AM a Star Wars fan and I feel this way. It's tough.

Personally? I'm quite irritated because I too am a big Luke fan and I totally enjoyed Luke's story in TLJ. But now the legacy will be tarnished because fans other than myself did not like how Luke was portrayed.

See, I was grateful Luke got an arc at all, instead of some fully realized Yoda-like or Ben-like mentor appearance. But many of you would have preferred the latter. And that's all good....well, except for that "legacy" aspect of Luke's character.

I mean, overall. As far as I'm concerned, there are a lot of valid criticisms of TLJ... but most are in execution NOT in the ideas themselves.

I love cobalt's list of Rian's ideas for Rey, Kylo and Luke. The execution of them? Not so much.
 
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The difference is that in the other films the "certain point of view" was not laid out before the audience in triplicate, having been filmed entirely differently each time. We had nuance and we understood, because we are not thick. (Yes, that's a re-wording of 'intellectually deficient' - so please don't be precious about it because be it thick/ stupid/ dumb it is NOT an un-PC statement and attempting to make it so weakens the standpoint of any case from the get-go)

Hidalgo seems to respond to those who had this nonsense laid out on a plate before them repeatedly and still didn't understand what they saw. If I could understand the OT when my age was in the single-digits I have no sympathy. After all this time it simply needs to go away.

Maybe if Disney/ LFL concentrated on hype-building for TROS, instead of obsessively hiding everything, re-treading the ground damaged by TLJ would be unnecessary and some goodwill may be regained amongst the demographic where it has been lost. In my opinion his actions have done more damage by poking the hornets' nest all over again.
 
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Rian Johnson destroyed one of cinema's most iconic heroes, all for the sake of a cheap "gotcha" and no amount of "Lucas said it...", or "you don't get it" will change that. 'The Last Jedi' is a terribly written film from beginning to end, that's populated with awful characters and that includes Johnson's version of Luke Skywalker. It's been so incredibly damaging to Star Wars, as a whole, it's going to be impossible to recover it in a forward trajectory, in any way approaching a satisfactory manner.
You know, when I posted the first reply to this...I was so certain I'd be chewed a new one. Now I'm sure I'll inevitably be flamed by someone eventually, but I must have severely underestimated the hatred for this scene. At least around Rebelscum. Now by no means am I saying that someone is stupid or wrong for enjoying it, but I am saying...I cannot possibly fathom how they could enjoy it. To each their own.

Now one thing is fascinating to me: for many years I felt like the fandom, while very much enjoying the character of Luke Skywalker, he wasn't on many top favorite characters lists. You'd more so see comments discussing how he's whiny, he's white bread, it's the straight-man POV role, and how he's somewhat boring and generic. The most you'd see positive (not always by the most common) usually focused on discussing how he turned into such a BA in Return of the Jedi. What's interesting to me is that, once Rian came along and did what he did what the character of Luke Skywalker, it was almost like this wake up call. It seemed to have made the fan consciousness suddenly realize how special and incredible Luke truly was as a character...by basically doing the POLAR opposite of that in The Last Jedi. Now by no means does that speak for everyone, but for my own personal life, I never really knew anyone that had an infatuation with Luke himself. But once he was tarnished so gravely, boy did we recognize the power of that role and its importance. It's sort of like the little brother or sister you pick on, you're not really all that appreciative of them...until the neighborhood bully abuses them. Now it's ON!

See that's another thing: for years I've been very openly vocal about my disdain for the prequel trilogy, but I experienced something I'd never felt before when leaving the theater playing The Last Jedi. It wasn't simply just disappointment. The Last Jedi felt almost personally insulting to classic original trilogy fans, so much so it might as well have flat-out stated we're no longer relevant. We don't matter! We're antiquated and need to go extinct and all that we loved about the originals is severely dated, shallow, and needs "improved." It didn't feel like a mere letdown. For all their faults, at least the prequels have moments. The Last Jedi felt like a call out troll-level kick to the nuts. Never once have I walked out of a SW before and thought to myself, "I just don't care anymore," not until Episode 8. While J.J. Abrams offered an overly-tributary movie, Rian offered an overly-subversive movie. They both swung too far from the mark of what Star Wars is. One is too similar, creating a somewhat enjoyable but altogether unoriginal experience. The other is too different, fabricating a plot that breaks established ground rules that is riddled with plot holes and attempted pseudo-intellectualism. They both destroy the immersion.

I believe only Rogue One achieved the balance, adhering to the sandbox rules, playing off of but not relying on nostalgia, but also being unique enough to free fresh and yet not out of place in this universe.
 
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TLJ sucked. I'm hopeful that TROS won't suck.

I liked TFA.
 
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when I left the theater after VIII, I was ambivalent, I didn't think much of it, I thought it was 'meh'.
until somebody asked on the ride home, "...so what did you think of it?" and then it was like a snowball rolling downhill.
the more I dissected it, and discussed it, the more "pissed-off" I became ...("And Another Thing")... by the time we got home, I was fully, completely, ANGRY.

^^ and this seems to be what happened all over the entire fandom -- the more the fandom dissected it, and talked about it, the more angry they became.
to be honest, the WORST part of TLJ..? was the way Rian conducted himself on twitter after-the-fact (!)
the ongoing hate-war that erupted over this movie, was worse than the movie itself. to the point where, I absolutely can't stand that little dude.

---> that's what happens when you SET OUT to divide people, like a certain orange-skinned politician -- this was intentional.
it seems to be more and more common nowadays, "TPTB" are TRYING to divide and conquer -- and it works like a charm.

Coke and Pepsi divide ALL soda-drinkers into blue team and red team, and in the end, this makes BOTH sides SELL! MORE! SODA! LOL good game.
everyone loves a good "Rivalry" -- (Yankees v Red Sox ; Lakers v. Celtics ; OT Fans* vs. ST Fans??)-- in the end, these "rivalries" only serve, to sell MORE tickets.

BUT: in this case, its more like "Lakers-Starting-Lineup v. Lakers-Second-Lineup" ..or.. "Coke Classic v Coke Life" (..or.. "Americans v. Other Americans")
why ****ing bother? what does this hope to accomplish? we are all fans of the same franchise... so... what gives? why is this a THING, in today's media climate?



* how many times did we hear THIS phrase being tossed around, as an accusation..? "OT Fan". wtf does it even MEAN..?
--> we've been divided into "Star Wars Fans v. OTHER Star Wars Fans" (by a giggling leprechaun who SET OUT to divide us, on purpose).
honestly, I can't believe we fell for it. I liked this world better, when it was "SW v ST" :rolleyes: LOL
 
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What HothHan said ^

TLJ wasn't Star Wars - it was a Marvel film with the wrong actors in it. That's how I left the cinema feeling.

It was a midnight screening. I live on a steep hill and it was snowing so I couldn't drive to the multiplex. When it ended there was no public transport and no taxis around, so I walked miles on my own in the cold until I could get one. It gave me time to really process what I'd just seen. I haven't changed my mind since.
 
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I got more and more disillusioned during the movie in the theater. A friend had already seen it, so he was waiting to hear my reaction and my first words were "wtf did I just watch?".
 
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What HothHan said ^

TLJ wasn't Star Wars - it was a Marvel film with the wrong actors in it. That's how I left the cinema feeling.

It was a midnight screening. I live on a steep hill and it was snowing so I couldn't drive to the multiplex. When it ended there was no public transport and no taxis around, so I walked miles on my own in the cold until I could get one. It gave me time to really process what I'd just seen. I haven't changed my mind since.
I seem to remember you mentioning that once before. Dude! Talk about salt to the wound.

Now see, I liked TFA too. I won't say I loved it though, but I saw prospect in SW again. I regained some investment. Though Lucas gave me enough enjoyment with the PT to always want to return, I never really felt the PT left it in a quality position. TFA brought me back to a sort of compromise, where I saw glimmers of hope for the future. This was fun, safely generic, but fun. I could even forgive the open-ended angles because, well, it's the first installment. It's set-up. Then Rogue One happen and I was thrilled. The first NEW Star Wars movie since Return of the Jedi that I truly loved. I really saw the franchise on the mend.

Needless to say, I never saw TLJ coming. It blindsided me. I never thought it would get back to PT quality so soon...not after Rogue One...and never dared to assume it could be worse! My naive optimism for the franchise was shattered within almost the first five minutes of Episode 8. Again I can't speak for everyone here, but Last Jedi is DRASTICALLY the worst in the franchise for me. Attack of the Clones is my second to bottom, but honestly, I'll take it over "Ruin" Johnson's "masterpiece" any day. It's a new level of low. Now I will say, for as blindsided as I was by just how bad the film ended up being...I did predict something was off even via the trailers. Something didn't feel right to me. But never did I dream it would be THIS bad. It's actually, by association, made me enjoy the prequels a bit MORE oddly. Some have even theorized that Rian literally wrote scenes to INTENTIONALLY troll life-long fans. It's almost like he was picked on by some SW fan in high school and got his revenge out. It has that bitterness feeling to some narrative choices, his eventual responses to fan reaction even more bitter and stoking the fires of fandom civil war. He's even been literally on video quoted as saying he enjoys, essentially, angering half the audience merely for the sake OF angering them. He's essentially TRYING TO make you angry, cheap shock jock style. I think he enjoyed it! Now that's all conspiracy, I don't necessarily believe that, but I can see why some may.

I also fail to buy into Solo and the franchise as a whole hitting a financial low as NOT being a result of the backlash toward The Last Jedi. Of course it played a part in it. SW toys sell at a commercial low. Star Wars produced its first box-office under-performer (calling it a flop may be too harsh) in Solo, the film directly after Rian's. I once considered that impossible! Even Galaxy's Edge is not hitting its predicted numbers. To say this has absolutely NOTHING to do with The Last Jedi is selective ignorance. Denial! Of course it had some effect. The mere fact that Disney said they're on a "course correction" with SW now, the terminology of "course correction," means they're recognizing they MADE a MISTAKE: Giving essentially a random dude with an amateur-level experience resume the complete creative control of a film without the biggest film franchise of all-time. Huge gamble. Huge mistake!
 
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Gee, it had finally quieted down around here DarkManX. You just trying to rile people up? lol

Hidalgo seems to respond to those who had this nonsense laid out on a plate before them repeatedly and still didn't understand what they saw. If I could understand the OT when my age was in the single-digits I have no sympathy. After all this time it simply needs to go away.
Exactly! If so many of use were able to us were able to understand the OT at such a young age, yet they feel that they need to explain this one to so many adults in order for them to like it?
It's not that those people didn't understand it, it's that they simply didn't like it.

If they cannot stand the criticism, then perhaps release better movies...


Whether it was a GL outline or not, it doesn't change the fact that it comes down to the story teller to convey the accurate interpretation.
 
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I do.


he absolutely did it on purpose.
I wouldn't be surprised. It seems his goal was to challenge fans, particularly the original trilogy lovers as the prequels are mostly irrelevant to this new series thus far, by basically annihilating any preconceived notion or established rule to the lore. What staggers me is his reception to it all. How is he so shocked by and seemingly even worked up/insulted by the INEVITABLE push-back that would receive? What did he expect?! SW fans are infamously fickle, even when you ARE trying to please them. What did he expect when he has almost openly confessed to trolling them?
 
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You know, when I posted the first reply to this...I was so certain I'd be chewed a new one. Now I'm sure I'll inevitably be flamed by someone eventually, but I must have severely underestimated the hatred for this scene. At least around Rebelscum. Now by no means am I saying that someone is stupid or wrong for enjoying it, but I am saying...I cannot possibly fathom how they could enjoy it. To each their own.
Sure, everyone likes different things.

Now one thing is fascinating to me: for many years I felt like the fandom, while very much enjoying the character of Luke Skywalker, he wasn't on many top favorite characters lists. You'd more so see comments discussing how he's whiny, he's white bread, it's the straight-man POV role, and how he's somewhat boring and generic.
Nobody ever considered Luke "whiny", until the prequels came out and that kind accusation was levelled at Hayden's portrayal of Anakin Skywalker. The prequel fans started to point at Luke and his Toshe Station yap when Uncle Owen gave out to him about wasting time with his friends and say look, Luke was whiny too, so that makes it all ok. It's the same type of whataboutery that sequel fans use to big up their own particular likes, when people say that Rey is overpowered.

But, none of the comparisons with either Rey or Anakin stands up to any analysis.

Luke is frustrated, at times, in the first two films, no doubt. But I think he's legitimately so in 'Star Wars', because his Uncle is actively holding him back in that movie. In 'The Empire Strikes Back', he's frustrated by Yoda, who's testing his patience. But Luke has the patience of every 20 year old, i.e. bleedin none. But his frustration stems from Yoda not really being straight with him, too, and when Yoda does play straight, Luke's attitude changes. By the third film, Luke has matured into fairly admirable young man.

Teenage Anakin, on the other hand, is just a deeply unpleasant person from the moment we meet him. He's just an awful ****** who is constantly at odds with everyone around him who's trying to teach him and he turns into a flippin psychopath.

In any case, I was one of those people who was never really that interested in Luke Skywalker (or the Jedi for that matter). My draw was always Han Solo and the war aspect of Star Wars. That was the side of things that always fascinated me. The war between the Rebellion and the Empire was endless more fascinating to me than space wizards. The Jedi and the Force were always just parts of a greater whole to me, because in the original films that's what they were. When the focus became about the Jedi order in the prequels, I mostly tuned out, because they're largely boring, arrogant, pseudo mystical tossers and nothing at all like what Alec Guinness's Obi-Wan suggested. Which is why I suppose I am more interested in Disney's TV Star Wars fare than I am in their movie output.

I suppose that's why I also don't really find the sequels that appealing, because Rey is just an instant Jedi superhero, without any of the trials and tribulations that go with the journey. Which makes her terribly uninteresting. And with the other aspects of the sequels being just a poor retread of the Empire vs Rebels, all without the basic logic of such a conflict being applied and the complete abandonment of any kind of clarity on the galactic political situation, there's not much there for more to care about. It all feels like a soulless, but glossy veneer over very poor quality wood.

I believe only Rogue One achieved the balance, adhering to the sandbox rules, playing off of but not relying on nostalgia, but also being unique enough to free fresh and yet not out of place in this universe.
'Rogue One' will stand the test of time and with great ease too. In comparison the sequel trilogy will continue to disappoint fans, the more they objectively analyse it and the older they get. 'Rogue One', though, gets better with each viewing and has seamlessly slotted itself into the over all story in a way that the sequels can never even hope to achieve. And that's despite the fact that the main original trilogy characters even make an appearance! Which is mental, when you stop and think about it.

But, 'Rogue One' is what it is because Gareth Edwards was a genuine fan of the original films. Yes, I know Tony Gilroy did some reshoots and rearranged the ending structure on Scariff. But that film feels the way it does because of Edwards and his love of the 1977 film. Gilroy, himself, said he had no interest in Star Wars at all, if I recall correctly. So, while some people are quick to point out his involvement, it's still very much Gareth Edward's film.

Personally, I'd give Edward's another Star Wars gig in heartbeat.
 
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TLJ sucked. I'm hopeful that TROS won't suck.

I liked TFA.
Honestly, it wouldn't matter to me if 'The Rise of Skywalker' was the greatest Star Wars film ever made, because it's still a part of a rotten trilogy of films.
 
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Well said. It seems to me that RJ's sole reason for starting the film right after TFA, was to have Luke toss the lightsaber over his shoulder. Those "gotcha" moments were a travesty for such an iconic character.

From what I've read of the Lucas outline, Luke still had a connection to the force, which JJ had originally planned for TFA, but change the scene a bit because RJ asked him too. I don't think JJ knew what RJ had planned anyway. The outline also has Luke training Kira or whatever her name was, meaning what was done in TLJ did not really come from GL.

I still think they should have had the old mains basically just say to the younger ones, "we did our part years ago, it's your turn." Having Han and Chewie go to Starkiller Base put them front and center. When the OT mains show up onscreen and take the reins, I instantly lose interest in the new ST characters.
This is why Luke wasn't in TFA much according to JJ himself. Every time he showed up in the script he became the sole focus. What JJ didn't realize is that Harrison Ford's Han Solo was even BIGGER than Luke. I think they were so happy to get Harrison back into Han Solo that they didn't care.

The "Chewie, we're home" moment that they showed at Celebration still gives me goosebumps and I was only watching on my computer at home when the announcement was made. If they wanted people to care about Finn, Poe, Rey, etc... they needed to have them act on something without the OT characters or at the direction of instead of being led by (if that makes sense). TFA became the movie where Han died and we are introduced to a new Empire that gets its superweapon blown up. TLJ became that movie where Luke has lost hope and the Empire 'strikes back'. Anyone notice what's missing? (Rey was a good addition to Star Wars in my opinion, but even the nice work Daisy did in TFA was overshadowed by everything Harrison did).

Then they decided to separate the 3 'main' ST characters and give them very little to do. Poe is stuck on a big starship, Rey is literally on an island, and Finn goes on a kooky adventure with generic mechanic.

This is perhaps the root of what went wrong for me.
 
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Honestly, it wouldn't matter to me if 'The Rise of Skywalker' was the greatest Star Wars film ever made, because it's still a part of a rotten trilogy of films.
I disagree because I believe they can still make a great Star Wars movie. I don't necessarily think the people working on this have it in them, but they COULD.

1) Forget about the OT stuff in this one, you wrecked most of that already. Hopefully Leia and Lando are cameos and they don't get blown up with Chewie in the Falcon. (Highly doubtful though since the Falcon is part of Galaxy's Edge and they aren't getting rid of that ship)
2) Keep the main ST characters together. Think about it: Han, Luke, Leia, Chewie on the Death Star. Han, Luke, Leia, Chewie on Hoth. Han, Leia, Chewie, and eventually Luke on Bespin. Han, Luke, Leia, Chewie in Jabba's Palace. Han, Luke, Leia, Chewie on Endor.
3) New hotness. Think about it: ANH (X-Wing, TIE, Falcon, Landspeeder, Sandcrawler, Star Destroyer, Death Star) ESB (Snowspeeder, AT-AT, Cloud Car, Slave I) ROTJ (Sailbarge, AT-ST, Speeder bikes, Imp Shuttle) THEN look at what we got in TFA (Rey's speeder, new X-wings and TIEs, Falcon, *a couple just offscreen vehicles) TLJ (Star Destroyers chasing giant resistance ships, Bombers?, Kylo's ship, Finn's shuttle?) In the PT we got Clone Gunships, Octuptarra, Hailfire, Crab, and Homing Spider Droids, Naboo fighters, STAPs, Jedi Starfighters, the list goes on.

There are plenty of things they can do to get a decent movie out there and they can fix some glaring mistakes as well. It looks like they are already fixing the hole a dead Snoke has left with Palpatine's ghost or something. They can give Rey a lineage and Kylo some redeeming qualities and give Finn some dignity..... lots of ways to heal.
 
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It still wouldn't matter to me. All of the above could happen and, indeed, it could be the greatest Star Wars film ever made. But the damage is already done.
 
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I mean, for me, I already think the TROS looks better...but I'm kind of with CellBlock here. See the thing is, no matter how much it can mend some of the mistakes made with TLJ, it can't fix them all. The damage indeed is done, but I also think that it being the middle of a trilogy hurts the trilogy even more. I feel like the middle installment is the one you don't want to mess up most. While true, Attack of the Clones also sucks, the difference is pretty much all of those do so it makes little difference. Here, the middle installment being bad now taints the enjoyment and step-up's of the first, but also leave you not really caring about the characters by the third. You can't just edit this one out like you basically can with TPM due to that too.
 
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^^ I hoping we CAN just edit this one out.LOL :p

after all : there was a 3-year gap between SW and ESB -- as if we had missed an episode in between
the Rebel Fleet is no longer on Yavin; Our Heroes are on the run; and the audience has to 'fill in the blanks', and just roll with it.
(( we don't need to actually SEE the "bounty hunter on ord mantell" -- we can figure it out for ourselves)).

by the same token, if one were to watch TFA, and follow directly into TROS, there WOULD be a gap -- as if we had missed an episode in between.
but the audience could always just 'fill in the blanks and just roll with it.
(( we don't actually need to SEE the rebel fleet being reduced to just one ship -- we can figure it out for ourselves))

all told, there's really not much that actually happens in TLJ (besides Luke's death).
the events of TLJ could be reduced to a single line of dialog, on par with "that nest of gundarks", and the audience could just roll with it -- 'as if we had missed an episode in between' :whistling: LOL :p
 

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Wow, the bile of this thread.

To quote Lisa Simpson on Comic Book Guy:

[FONT=&quot]“His favorite thing is Star Wars, and he HATES Star Wars.”[/FONT]
 
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Wow, the bile of this thread.

To quote Lisa Simpson on Comic Book Guy:

“His favorite thing is Star Wars, and he HATES Star Wars.”
So it begins! We finally got our first TLJ fan in the thread! LYNCH HIM! =P

I'm teasing of course, but sometimes you fans of the film seem to exaggeratedly act like we'll do that. Of course not, I welcome constructive debate. It always fascinates me when someone finally comes along and immediately dismisses criticism as somehow...harmful or unhealthy...because they just don't agree. That whole contemporary concept of "toxic fandom," eye-rolling at best. You have to like every Star Wars to be a Star Wars fan? That cultist brand loyalty mentality is what's unhealthy, not film critique. Do you like every episode of the Simpsons? But your logic, if you don't, guess you should be stripped of your rights to use a Simpsons quote. =P

How bile indeed.
 
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Bile indeed.
Why is Higaldo picking at this scab, AT ALL?
I thought Lucasfilm wanted the fandom to "heal" and "move on"?
so what gives?



as mentioned, the ongoing hate-war surrounding this film was WORSE than the film itself.
it was fueled by Rian Johnson's twitter tirade against the fans....

...so now it's almost 2 years later, NOBODY cares anymore, and Higaldo chimes in with "... And Another Thing!"
(("GL says we were right all along! anyone who disagrees with Rian is wrong! etc.. etc.. blah blah blah.."))

and on and on it goes... WITH NO END IN SIGHT.



why? just why?
why would Higaldo pick at that scab, all over again?
why won't he just let this drop? ("bile" indeed!)

Lucasfilm SAYS it's time to "heal" and "move on" ... but here we have an actual Lucasfilm EXECUTIVE,
picking at old wounds, UNABLE to just let this thing drop. UNABLE to "heal and move on".
raising the SAME OLD talking points, picking at the SAME old scab. JUST to keep the "bile" flowing,
between Lucasfilm and its OWN fans. when will it end?



re: "the bile of this thread?" ROFL!
this thread was a response to Higaldo "beating that drum", all over again. HE brought it up.
nearly 2 years after-the-fact?? Higaldo has resumed "Rian's Twitter Tirade"?? honestly! when will it end?

when will LFL stop picking fights with its OWN fans, over this horrible horrible movie?
(when is it time to just heal and move on?)
 
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You have to like every Star Wars to be a Star Wars fan?
How bile indeed.
Of course not!
If the only thing from Star Wars someone loves is "The Ewoks Battle for Endor" they are still a Star Wars fan.
Star Wars is for everyone.

But I'd also expect that they spend more of their time as a fan sharing their passion for "The Ewoks Battle for Endor" than complaining about the rest.

Fandom should be about what you love, not what you hate.
 
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Of course not!
If the only thing from Star Wars someone loves is "The Ewoks Battle for Endor" they are still a Star Wars fan.
Star Wars is for everyone.

But I'd also expect that they spend more of their time as a fan sharing their passion for "The Ewoks Battle for Endor" than complaining about the rest.

Fandom should be about what you love, not what you hate.

Did you just quote Rose Tico? I think this is the first time I've seen someone quote Rose Tico...
 
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Higaldo talks about "Happily and Rightly Superseding Anyone's Feedback"

aka: he takes pleasure in proving fans wrong -- "Happily" and "Rightly" -- he ENJOYS this conflict.




Higaldo has tipped his hand. "Happily" he fights with fans.

this is poison. it needs to stop.
 
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^^ I hoping we CAN just edit this one out.LOL :p

after all : there was a 3-year gap between SW and ESB -- as if we had missed an episode in between
the Rebel Fleet is no longer on Yavin; Our Heroes are on the run; and the audience has to 'fill in the blanks', and just roll with it.
(( we don't need to actually SEE the "bounty hunter on ord mantell" -- we can figure it out for ourselves)).

by the same token, if one were to watch TFA, and follow directly into TROS, there WOULD be a gap -- as if we had missed an episode in between.
but the audience could always just 'fill in the blanks and just roll with it.
(( we don't actually need to SEE the rebel fleet being reduced to just one ship -- we can figure it out for ourselves))

all told, there's really not much that actually happens in TLJ (besides Luke's death).
the events of TLJ could be reduced to a single line of dialog, on par with "that nest of gundarks", and the audience could just roll with it -- 'as if we had missed an episode in between' :whistling: LOL :p
I have to basically agree with this. TFA wasn't a bad start for a new Star Wars. You could edit TLJ down to the opening crawl of TROS saying "After surviving a damaging attack from the First Order with the help of Luke Skywalker, the Resistance must move on now that Luke has become one with the force..." Is there anything else that even needs to be said? Maybe a line of dialog that Snoke is also gone...
 
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It still wouldn't matter to me. All of the above could happen and, indeed, it could be the greatest Star Wars film ever made. But the damage is already done.
Same here. And It’s JJ,… That alone will immediately cancel out any possibility that EPlV can be “the greatest SW movie”. Even the universe and divine together cannot conspire to conjure such an act.

TFA is so deathly reductive If one accepts the attitude that nothing happens in TLJ, then is it any better that the exact same course of events happen in TFA as ANH…???? Both offerings don’t even bother to move the story along. TLJ at least is so Trisha Paytas-trollish it registers as a perverse parody. TFA is a literal , droning shadow of ANH that lacks even vital signs.

Ultimately, it’s akin to making a choice between vomit or puke. I mean, they’re both the same regurgitated waste…

(BTW, I don’t understand where the hope is coming from because that EPlV teaser is awful: Rey showboating with that ridiculous backflip onto the TIE Interceptor proves JJ will rip-off even Jeepers Creepers and Underworld; Someone that looks like a rip-off of Wonder Woman— but she’s Black: More OT-pandering with Death Star and Sheev— and desperately pulling at the heartstrings of you OT-OGs with the heroes’ medal… Jeez… I can’t stress enough how creatively-bankrupt JJ is. Rian is an auteur next to him.)
 
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Higaldo talks about "Happily and Rightly Superseding Anyone's Feedback"

aka: he takes pleasure in proving fans wrong -- "Happily" and "Rightly" -- he ENJOYS this conflict.




Higaldo has tipped his hand. "Happily" he fights with fans.

this is poison. it needs to stop.
Exactly! He came off as flaunting LFL authority, very privileged and entitled. It just came off so high and mighty, really made me say "UGH" aloud. We've said, nothing wrong with healthy debate. I don't find critiquing what you dislike about a film to actually be a true negative. This whole ideology of "If you don't like it, don't talk about it" is nonsense. The notion of negative opinions somehow "ruining the fun" for those who did like it is equally nonsense! That's just it, we talk about what we hate in modern SW because we LOVE SW! Pointing out what you believe to be flaws and discussing how they can or could be corrected isn't an inherent negative at all. It can be a wonderful positive. But what's not? Stoking the fires of a civil flame war. It's a cheap political tactic, politicians do that to distract from the real enemy. The fact that LFL is now actively belittling and condemning and even ridiculing the very people that give them a paycheck is...staggering. It's actively promoting a rivalry...and not a healthy one. It's not unhealthy to discuss aspects of a film you hated, it's JUST a film. It's unhealthy to PERSONALLY ATTACK someone for their feelings ON said film!

(BTW, I don’t understand where the hope is coming from because that EPlV teaser is awful: Rey showboating with that ridiculous backflip onto the TIE Interceptor proves JJ will rip-off even Jeepers Creepers and Underworld; Someone that looks like a rip-off of Wonder Woman— but she’s Black: More OT-pandering with Death Star and Sheev— and desperately pulling at the heartstrings of you OT-OGs with the heroes’ medal… Jeez… I can’t stress enough how creatively-bankrupt JJ is. Rian is an auteur next to him.)
I mean...I'm not remotely going to sit here and argue that J.J. is a conceptual genius. His entire shtick is riding off the coat-tails of better creators, it's nostalgia. He doesn't have an original bone in his body, but I will say in his defense...at least he's competent. He might not be original, but at least he's entertaining and fluid. Mostly! Whereas Johnson...well it's apples and oranges. I hardly think subverting expectations (particularly for the sake of nothing but...) makes an auteur. It's just as cheap and easy as J.J. essentially committing plagiarism...but know what it's not? It's NOT entertaining. It's JUST disappointing and sometimes even nonsensical. It renders entire subplots utterly pointless, at least I felt every moment in TFA had some relevance to the narrative. So it really just comes down to your preference: Are you more a meat and potatoes guy, sure it's something bland and every day been there done that, but at least you know you can down it with relative ease...or would you prefer something that outwardly appears rich and fanciful and some high class culinary delight...only to receive it, it's less than half the portion size you expected, and it taste like utter garbage? That's basically my analogy of the two films. Personally, I'll take J.J. I might not be thrilled, but at least I can swallow it. Of course, that's me though...
 
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