- Jun 30, 2007
- Reaction score
Well exactly, Lucas also wanted to place Luke in exile is ultimately irrelevant. It doesn't change what we got, it doesn't immunize the sheer awfulness of the actual final product. It's just a bar trivia factoid. Useless knowledge! Not to mention, like I said, it could have been done extremely differently. I find it very hard to believe that Lucas would have, for example, had the lightsaber toss and the milk chugging scenes. However...this apparent defense of the scenes, if that is what it is, is flawed on multiple angles far more than just that. If saying Lucas also planned some similar concepts is your defense for the scenes, is that really the right approach? Lucas!? I'm not convinced Lucas would have done it much better. Differently, sure, but...better? There's three movies out there that emphasize he himself lost the touch years ago.Rian was very clear on how he made his "Decisions". he said he made a list of every character, and asked of each name on his list: "...what's the worst that could happen?"
for Rey: she's searching for her parents, waiting foe them to one day return to her..
so the worst thing that could happen to Rey is she has no parents, and they're not coming back. she was abandoned by the side of the road like Joe Dirt.
because (*s****** s*******) that's the exact opposite of what had been established for her character in the previous film. (and Rian lives in Opposite Land).
for Kylo: he killed Han Solo so he could sever his ties to his old life and "complete his training"..
so the worst thing that could happen to Kylo is, it made no difference. Snoke doesn't want to "complete his training", regardless. Killing Han made no difference to the plot.
because (*s****** s*******) that's the exact opposite of what had been established for this character in the previous film. (and Rian lives in Opposite Land).
for Luke: Luke is the epitome of all HOPE in the universe. he is the walking, talking, embodiment of HOPE..
so the worst thing that could happen to Luke is, suicidal depression. he falls into DESPAIR, and declares out loud, that he ONLY went to that island to "die" (aka: to kill himself).
because (*s****** s*******) that's the exact opposite of what had been established for this character. (and Rian lives in Opposite Land).
^^ absolutely -NO- THOUGHT went into this process. Rian is a one-trick-pony.
this was his way of "!!SuBvErTinG EXpeCTaTioNS!!" *GASP* --- he gave us "Anti-Luke" (for the sake of it) --- *yawn*
^^ this was not clever. it was not original. and it was not necessary. (to "erase" the childhood hero of an entire generation, and make him suicidal instead).
Yes! the NuSW is all about Rey (not Luke). nobody wants to see another movie about "Luke". this is given.
but it was NOT necessary to destroy the chilhood hopes and dreams of an entire generation, just to shoe-horn a "new" generation into the frame.
imagine if ST : TNG had gone out of its way to depict Kirk&Spock as suicidal drunkards, taking a HUGE dump all over these characters, in an effort to "**** up" Picard and Data instead.
how would this effect the morale of the fanbase? --> would this "win over" lifelong fans of the franchise? why or why not?
Well said. It seems to me that RJ's sole reason for starting the film right after TFA, was to have Luke toss the lightsaber over his shoulder. Those "gotcha" moments were a travesty for such an iconic character.Rian Johnson destroyed one of cinema's most iconic heroes, all for the sake of a cheap "gotcha" and no amount of "Lucas said it...", or "you don't get it" will change that. 'The Last Jedi' is a terribly written film from beginning to end, that's populated with awful characters and that includes Johnson's version of Luke Skywalker. It's been so incredibly damaging to Star Wars, as a whole, it's going to be impossible to recover it in a forward trajectory, in any way approaching a satisfactory manner.
In fairness to Johnson, he didn't really have much of a choice as Abrams painted him into a corner by including a stupid cliffhanger in 'The Force Awakens'.Well said. It seems to me that RJ's sole reason for starting the film right after TFA, was to have Luke toss the lightsaber over his shoulder. Those "gotcha" moments were a travesty for such an iconic character.
I'm increasingly of the opinion that it would have been better, over all, if the original three had been left out of the sequels altogether. Because they are, literally, only there to be killed off and it's all been handled so ineptly. Solo going out because he was a sap, Luke eliminating himself by using too much force, Leia's going to be off'ed in some disappointing way too. God knows what they'll do to Lando. Maybe he'll electrocute himself by sticking his manhood in some slot on the Millennium Falcon, because he hasn't seen his sexbot in 30+ years.I still think they should have had the old mains basically just say to the younger ones, "we did our part years ago, it's your turn." Having Han and Chewie go to Starkiller Base put them front and center. When the OT mains show up onscreen and take the reins, I instantly lose interest in the new ST characters.
Bad film-making for a lot of STAR WARS fans, apparently. And if that sounds insulting? Well, take it how you want to take it. I surely do not mean it that way...especially not that "intellectually deficient" type way you referenced.So some audience members didn't 'get it'? Then, allowing for the intellectually deficient ones, if it needs to be explained nearly 2 years later by a company 'Yes Man' IT IS BAD FILM-MAKING.
You know, when I posted the first reply to this...I was so certain I'd be chewed a new one. Now I'm sure I'll inevitably be flamed by someone eventually, but I must have severely underestimated the hatred for this scene. At least around Rebelscum. Now by no means am I saying that someone is stupid or wrong for enjoying it, but I am saying...I cannot possibly fathom how they could enjoy it. To each their own.Rian Johnson destroyed one of cinema's most iconic heroes, all for the sake of a cheap "gotcha" and no amount of "Lucas said it...", or "you don't get it" will change that. 'The Last Jedi' is a terribly written film from beginning to end, that's populated with awful characters and that includes Johnson's version of Luke Skywalker. It's been so incredibly damaging to Star Wars, as a whole, it's going to be impossible to recover it in a forward trajectory, in any way approaching a satisfactory manner.
I seem to remember you mentioning that once before. Dude! Talk about salt to the wound.What HothHan said ^
TLJ wasn't Star Wars - it was a Marvel film with the wrong actors in it. That's how I left the cinema feeling.
It was a midnight screening. I live on a steep hill and it was snowing so I couldn't drive to the multiplex. When it ended there was no public transport and no taxis around, so I walked miles on my own in the cold until I could get one. It gave me time to really process what I'd just seen. I haven't changed my mind since.
Exactly! If so many of use were able to us were able to understand the OT at such a young age, yet they feel that they need to explain this one to so many adults in order for them to like it?Hidalgo seems to respond to those who had this nonsense laid out on a plate before them repeatedly and still didn't understand what they saw. If I could understand the OT when my age was in the single-digits I have no sympathy. After all this time it simply needs to go away.
I wouldn't be surprised. It seems his goal was to challenge fans, particularly the original trilogy lovers as the prequels are mostly irrelevant to this new series thus far, by basically annihilating any preconceived notion or established rule to the lore. What staggers me is his reception to it all. How is he so shocked by and seemingly even worked up/insulted by the INEVITABLE push-back that would receive? What did he expect?! SW fans are infamously fickle, even when you ARE trying to please them. What did he expect when he has almost openly confessed to trolling them?I do.
he absolutely did it on purpose.
Sure, everyone likes different things.You know, when I posted the first reply to this...I was so certain I'd be chewed a new one. Now I'm sure I'll inevitably be flamed by someone eventually, but I must have severely underestimated the hatred for this scene. At least around Rebelscum. Now by no means am I saying that someone is stupid or wrong for enjoying it, but I am saying...I cannot possibly fathom how they could enjoy it. To each their own.
Nobody ever considered Luke "whiny", until the prequels came out and that kind accusation was levelled at Hayden's portrayal of Anakin Skywalker. The prequel fans started to point at Luke and his Toshe Station yap when Uncle Owen gave out to him about wasting time with his friends and say look, Luke was whiny too, so that makes it all ok. It's the same type of whataboutery that sequel fans use to big up their own particular likes, when people say that Rey is overpowered.Now one thing is fascinating to me: for many years I felt like the fandom, while very much enjoying the character of Luke Skywalker, he wasn't on many top favorite characters lists. You'd more so see comments discussing how he's whiny, he's white bread, it's the straight-man POV role, and how he's somewhat boring and generic.
'Rogue One' will stand the test of time and with great ease too. In comparison the sequel trilogy will continue to disappoint fans, the more they objectively analyse it and the older they get. 'Rogue One', though, gets better with each viewing and has seamlessly slotted itself into the over all story in a way that the sequels can never even hope to achieve. And that's despite the fact that the main original trilogy characters even make an appearance! Which is mental, when you stop and think about it.I believe only Rogue One achieved the balance, adhering to the sandbox rules, playing off of but not relying on nostalgia, but also being unique enough to free fresh and yet not out of place in this universe.
This is why Luke wasn't in TFA much according to JJ himself. Every time he showed up in the script he became the sole focus. What JJ didn't realize is that Harrison Ford's Han Solo was even BIGGER than Luke. I think they were so happy to get Harrison back into Han Solo that they didn't care.Well said. It seems to me that RJ's sole reason for starting the film right after TFA, was to have Luke toss the lightsaber over his shoulder. Those "gotcha" moments were a travesty for such an iconic character.
From what I've read of the Lucas outline, Luke still had a connection to the force, which JJ had originally planned for TFA, but change the scene a bit because RJ asked him too. I don't think JJ knew what RJ had planned anyway. The outline also has Luke training Kira or whatever her name was, meaning what was done in TLJ did not really come from GL.
I still think they should have had the old mains basically just say to the younger ones, "we did our part years ago, it's your turn." Having Han and Chewie go to Starkiller Base put them front and center. When the OT mains show up onscreen and take the reins, I instantly lose interest in the new ST characters.
I disagree because I believe they can still make a great Star Wars movie. I don't necessarily think the people working on this have it in them, but they COULD.Honestly, it wouldn't matter to me if 'The Rise of Skywalker' was the greatest Star Wars film ever made, because it's still a part of a rotten trilogy of films.
So it begins! We finally got our first TLJ fan in the thread! LYNCH HIM! =PWow, the bile of this thread.
To quote Lisa Simpson on Comic Book Guy:
“His favorite thing is Star Wars, and he HATES Star Wars.”
Of course not!You have to like every Star Wars to be a Star Wars fan?
How bile indeed.
Of course not!
If the only thing from Star Wars someone loves is "The Ewoks Battle for Endor" they are still a Star Wars fan.
Star Wars is for everyone.
But I'd also expect that they spend more of their time as a fan sharing their passion for "The Ewoks Battle for Endor" than complaining about the rest.
Fandom should be about what you love, not what you hate.
I have to basically agree with this. TFA wasn't a bad start for a new Star Wars. You could edit TLJ down to the opening crawl of TROS saying "After surviving a damaging attack from the First Order with the help of Luke Skywalker, the Resistance must move on now that Luke has become one with the force..." Is there anything else that even needs to be said? Maybe a line of dialog that Snoke is also gone...^^ I hoping we CAN just edit this one out.LOL
after all : there was a 3-year gap between SW and ESB -- as if we had missed an episode in between
the Rebel Fleet is no longer on Yavin; Our Heroes are on the run; and the audience has to 'fill in the blanks', and just roll with it.
(( we don't need to actually SEE the "bounty hunter on ord mantell" -- we can figure it out for ourselves)).
by the same token, if one were to watch TFA, and follow directly into TROS, there WOULD be a gap -- as if we had missed an episode in between.
but the audience could always just 'fill in the blanks and just roll with it.
(( we don't actually need to SEE the rebel fleet being reduced to just one ship -- we can figure it out for ourselves))
all told, there's really not much that actually happens in TLJ (besides Luke's death).
the events of TLJ could be reduced to a single line of dialog, on par with "that nest of gundarks", and the audience could just roll with it -- 'as if we had missed an episode in between' :whistling: LOL
Same here. And It’s JJ,… That alone will immediately cancel out any possibility that EPlV can be “the greatest SW movie”. Even the universe and divine together cannot conspire to conjure such an act.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It still wouldn't matter to me. All of the above could happen and, indeed, it could be the greatest Star Wars film ever made. But the damage is already done.
Exactly! He came off as flaunting LFL authority, very privileged and entitled. It just came off so high and mighty, really made me say "UGH" aloud. We've said, nothing wrong with healthy debate. I don't find critiquing what you dislike about a film to actually be a true negative. This whole ideology of "If you don't like it, don't talk about it" is nonsense. The notion of negative opinions somehow "ruining the fun" for those who did like it is equally nonsense! That's just it, we talk about what we hate in modern SW because we LOVE SW! Pointing out what you believe to be flaws and discussing how they can or could be corrected isn't an inherent negative at all. It can be a wonderful positive. But what's not? Stoking the fires of a civil flame war. It's a cheap political tactic, politicians do that to distract from the real enemy. The fact that LFL is now actively belittling and condemning and even ridiculing the very people that give them a paycheck is...staggering. It's actively promoting a rivalry...and not a healthy one. It's not unhealthy to discuss aspects of a film you hated, it's JUST a film. It's unhealthy to PERSONALLY ATTACK someone for their feelings ON said film!Higaldo talks about "Happily and Rightly Superseding Anyone's Feedback"
aka: he takes pleasure in proving fans wrong -- "Happily" and "Rightly" -- he ENJOYS this conflict.
Higaldo has tipped his hand. "Happily" he fights with fans.
this is poison. it needs to stop.
I mean...I'm not remotely going to sit here and argue that J.J. is a conceptual genius. His entire shtick is riding off the coat-tails of better creators, it's nostalgia. He doesn't have an original bone in his body, but I will say in his defense...at least he's competent. He might not be original, but at least he's entertaining and fluid. Mostly! Whereas Johnson...well it's apples and oranges. I hardly think subverting expectations (particularly for the sake of nothing but...) makes an auteur. It's just as cheap and easy as J.J. essentially committing plagiarism...but know what it's not? It's NOT entertaining. It's JUST disappointing and sometimes even nonsensical. It renders entire subplots utterly pointless, at least I felt every moment in TFA had some relevance to the narrative. So it really just comes down to your preference: Are you more a meat and potatoes guy, sure it's something bland and every day been there done that, but at least you know you can down it with relative ease...or would you prefer something that outwardly appears rich and fanciful and some high class culinary delight...only to receive it, it's less than half the portion size you expected, and it taste like utter garbage? That's basically my analogy of the two films. Personally, I'll take J.J. I might not be thrilled, but at least I can swallow it. Of course, that's me though...(BTW, I don’t understand where the hope is coming from because that EPlV teaser is awful: Rey showboating with that ridiculous backflip onto the TIE Interceptor proves JJ will rip-off even Jeepers Creepers and Underworld; Someone that looks like a rip-off of Wonder Woman— but she’s Black: More OT-pandering with Death Star and Sheev— and desperately pulling at the heartstrings of you OT-OGs with the heroes’ medal… Jeez… I can’t stress enough how creatively-bankrupt JJ is. Rian is an auteur next to him.)