Did anyone change their mind?

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I like TFA, but I recognize the weaknesses the rest of you bring up. For all the hate of PT Lucas, every time I watch ROTS, I recognize what a great film it is. I'll still take any OT film over the rest of the Saga, but EIII was a fantastic film. Enough for me to forgive Lucas his transgressions. :grin:

Respectively, Maverick, I completely disagree with your take on Jedi. Harrison Ford largely phones in the last half of the movie. Mark Hamill's acting, along with that of David Prowse and James Earl Jones, completing Luke's arc and Anakin's redemption, dominate the last hour.
 
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ROTS, a great film? Okay :whistling:
yes it had a few decent moments, mostly Ian's acting. And some cool action sequences. But it was full of contradictions, even within the same scenes! Watching any scene with Anakin feels very hammy, and awkward with Padme.
 
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It also gave us some of the most emotional moments in the saga.
True especially NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
 
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Yes… ROTS did possess the only emotional scene of the Prequel….

The one of Anakin and Amidala lamenting their final fate on opposite end of the city on Coruscent, on the eve of the end of the Republic. The tone, the mood, even the lighting of the scene was unusually, gorgeously melancholic, and appropriately Shakespearian in it presupposed tragedy about to unfold for both characters and the fate of their world. And that accompanying score further enriched the haunting scenario. And both look absolutely beautiful. Which of course, made me suspicious if George even had a hand in directing the scene...

In that one short scene, that was the Prequel I wanted to see… Then it was back to typical George with Vader’s “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO” LOL
 
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Your last sentence makes me hope we never get an Episode X. The whole "it was in you all along" vibe should be stabbed, then burned, then punched a couple times, followed by more burning and then mixed into pig feed so we can then eat those pigs and crap them out.

I don't disagree with that. Unfortunately, I fear its where we are going. After all, SW takes place in our own universe, a long time ago.
 
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I like TFA, but I recognize the weaknesses the rest of you bring up. For all the hate of PT Lucas, every time I watch ROTS, I recognize what a great film it is. I'll still take any OT film over the rest of the Saga, but EIII was a fantastic film. Enough for me to forgive Lucas his transgressions. :grin:

Respectively, Maverick, I completely disagree with your take on Jedi. Harrison Ford largely phones in the last half of the movie. Mark Hamill's acting, along with that of David Prowse and James Earl Jones, completing Luke's arc and Anakin's redemption, dominate the last hour.
I'm confused, did I say Harrison was good in Jedi somewhere?

Jedi exists purely for the Luke Vader rematch.

Harrison totally phones it in, he has nothing to do at all. The first half of Jedi is fun but pointless considering Han has nothing to do the rest of the movie. The movie would have played out exactly the same had they not rescued him...so it's really really pointless.

The whole movie is fluff as none of the secondary characters do anything to help Luke along his arc.

One thing I think has changed with the PT is how people view the end of Jedi. More and more I hear about the redemption of anakin. Yes he is redeemed in the end, but I always viewed his redemption as Luke's ultimate achievement. Now the view of it being anakin's ultimate achievement has become a thing. It's interesting how that has changed.
 
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OK, I think I found the comment you were referencing. My point was the most important part of the movie, Luke's arc, was boiled down to just a Vader rematch and the rest of the movie is filled with fluff.

I didn't intend to claim Han overshadowed Luke or anything. All the story elements bury the Luke stuff. The first half does nothing, the second half does mostly nothing. The story doesn't get interesting until Luke turns himself over to Vader. Those scenes stand out but look at all that wasted run time.

In ANH everything further develops the Luke arc. External elements force internal development.

ESB continues this theme. Yes Han and Leia are off doing there thing but it leads to Luke needing to come back to save them.

Jedi doesn't have that. All the external forces don't push Luke in a direction. He doesn't grow. He could have started the movie turning himself over to Vader as nothing in the rest of the movie prepared him any more or less for that face off.
 
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ROTJ only had the final duel as anything resembling substance and impact that evolved from that consistent high standards set by the previous episodes. Besides Mark, Ian also deserved much in making an effort. Everyone else just sleepwalked through this film. It’s a fun enough movie, though.

I adored the assault on the Death Star action piece— and on a purely aesthetic pespective, the design of the unfinished DS just looked perfectly predatory and intimidatingly alive. But the actual action piece is so short— and it doesn’t help that it’s intercut with the cheap-looking Endor battle. You know, the action sets that required choreographing humans, never looked so sloppy and messy as it did in ROTJ of the three OT films. And when you factor in that the story was so thin, I mean, it’s almost an afterthought to the admittedly fun action of the first act with Jabba. What really turned me off was just how unorganized and unprepared the Rebels seemed to be: Han casually volunteers to lead the Endor strike team without Leia even knowing, and doesn’t even have a command crew until his gang volunteers: Talk about nepotism LOL Shouldn’t these kinds of things be planned months ahead with the perfect candidates…??????

ROTJ produced some of my fav SW designs, but it’s a weak, and rushed story. And it was the only OT film of which the concept paintings were stronger than the final production for me.

It’s too early to speculate of the overall impression of the Sequel if I were feeling particularly generous and fair. The Prequel at least had the leading edge CGI of its time (and strong, original, risk-taking designs with TPM), and has aged with that sort of so-bad-it’s kind-of-charming personality. TFA is just like any other blockbuster of its time— so even at its best, it’s generic… If the tone of the remainder of the Sequel is like TFA, it’s going to age and date itself forgettably: Just another corporate product of its time.
 
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Funny you mention how the PT has aged famer. The older the PT gets, or maybe it's the older I get, the movies have settled in for me. For all it's flaws that I saw, denied, and finally accepted (yes I know it sounds like stages of grief), they do feel like Star Wars to me. That aging, coupled with the blah that is TFA, is what the post is about. How I think fans minds may have changed over time. Who knows, maybe one day my mind will change about TFA. Maybe overtime I'll come to appreciate it and accept it as part of the Star Wars world. Ya never know. Ya never, ever, know.
 
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OK, I think I found the comment you were referencing. My point was the most important part of the movie, Luke's arc, was boiled down to just a Vader rematch and the rest of the movie is filled with fluff.

I didn't intend to claim Han overshadowed Luke or anything. All the story elements bury the Luke stuff. The first half does nothing, the second half does mostly nothing. The story doesn't get interesting until Luke turns himself over to Vader. Those scenes stand out but look at all that wasted run time.

In ANH everything further develops the Luke arc. External elements force internal development.

ESB continues this theme. Yes Han and Leia are off doing there thing but it leads to Luke needing to come back to save them.

Jedi doesn't have that. All the external forces don't push Luke in a direction. He doesn't grow. He could have started the movie turning himself over to Vader as nothing in the rest of the movie prepared him any more or less for that face off.
Consider these things from ESB through RotJ. Luke leaves Yoda to save his friends. He calls to Leia and she hears him and they save him. Lando helps get him in, someone Luke hasn't met yet. Lando and Chewie go off as part of Luke's plan to save Han. Leia sidesteps any Rebellion work to save Han out of love. Chewie turns himself over to capture out of love.

All these things help solidify friendship and love in Luke's mind, this group of people he's come to be among, not just what they are doing for 'people' in general, but specific people in their inner circle.

You could say Luke grows in love for others through these experiences, and they help solidify his love for his father, making him risk putting everything on the line in an attempt to save him (without really knowing if he would succeed). Those experiences helped shore up what becomes a vital part of his being, ultimately leading to his success, and great good for 'people' everywhere.

It also gave Luke a chance to develop leadership, in that it was his plan, and he pulled off the rescue of Han and destruction of Jabba throughout its course. It helped develop the inner strength of leadership which would help him devise the plan to turn himself in, away from the attack group, and risk the love element that had been solidified in him, as he followed through on his efforts to save his father.

Perhaps they are not direct challenges where the results are obvious, but they certainly help to build his character. Luke has become 'Luke' by the time he faces Vader after Vader sends the troops off, upon his being turned over from the troops. He has that inner peace and confidence behind his efforts. He might not know if they will work, but his behavior is different from that point on.

If you think of the PT and the idea of Jedi trials, well Luke saved Leia and destroyed the first Death Star, trained but ran off to face Vader and barely survived, but you can't quite say he had learned anything yet, in the overall scheme of the Force and life and nature. Luke's trials may have been taking his experiences and processing how to align his goals with the Force as opposed to using the Force to enforce his goals. Pursuing saving his friends through love, and trying to resist fighting along the way, rather than using fighting in ESB against Vader to save his friends. He learned to stop thinking of destroying the Emperor and Vader, to trying to save Vader, and perhaps allowing things to develop from there. Clearly, turning Vader would cause some sort of tremendous change in the Emperor's plans and ability to enforce his power throughout the Empire. He's interrupting the Emperor's power by turning Vader, like when he says soon we will both be dead or however he says it. He's there to save his father, interrupt and distract the Emperor, so the Rebellion's troops can overtake the Empire's troops. He's defeating and taking the Emperor out of the equation not by fighting but by love.

ESB through RotJ were Luke's trials being passed, and thus he had become a Jedi in mindset and approach, which then allowed him to conceive of a way to address the great issue of Vader and the Emperor, the light versus the dark, in the Force. The proper way. Not head on through fighting like Yoda and Kenobi tried in RotS.
 
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Funny you mention how the PT has aged famer. The older the PT gets, or maybe it's the older I get, the movies have settled in for me. For all it's flaws that I saw, denied, and finally accepted (yes I know it sounds like stages of grief), they do feel like Star Wars to me. That aging, coupled with the blah that is TFA, is what the post is about. How I think fans minds may have changed over time. Who knows, maybe one day my mind will change about TFA. Maybe overtime I'll come to appreciate it and accept it as part of the Star Wars world. Ya never know. Ya never, ever, know.
If there’s anything that nuSW changed my attitude towards— it’s towards George. I appreciate him more now that he’s no longer a part of it. He’s still an awful writer and director, but he’s always kept SW moving forward. Who can say what his version of the Sequel would have been like, but I don’t think he would have remade ANH, and in such an unimaginative fashion.

What RO showed me is that there are talents that are able to produce something fresh, something exciting— maybe not entirely new, but still enriching to the SW-lore. After getting lost in ESB recently, I followed it up with RO. And as much as the latter is a prequel/prologue to ANH, it worked so effortlessly alongside ESB. They have a similar tone, a maturity, a restrained melancholy that compliments one another quite well. So for that, I’m still optimistic that nuSW can work well with classic SW.

(BTW, I do hope TLJ turns out to be solid-- but too much damage has already been inflicted to the Sequel with TFA. I'm not likely going to change my mind about TFA. A vastly superior version already exists: ANH.)
 
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TFA makes me appreciate the PT more, yes.
I always defended the PT story kernel, but slammed the 'execution'.
I think the PT has a lot going on, story wise -- but, sadly, most of it was lost in translation.
I think the same. Looking at the PT now vs the prequel rough story outlines from the 1980's from Lucas during the making of ROTJ it seems the prequels are vaguely on track from a big picture stand point but they needed someone else to write the scripts, especially the dialogue. Even bringing in another director would have been a good thing. Lucas' big picture of it all was solid but at that time in his career he was just a man with these old ideas in his head and his skills as a director and screenwriter were rusted beyond repair. I think even focusing on a child Anakin in Ep1 could have worked much better with different dialogue and director.
 
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I've always enjoyed the PT as well, not as much as the OT of course. But I don't hate it the way some people do, for whatever reasons. However, that doesn't mean I didn't notice the bad dialog and unneeded jokes. Sometimes it came off as one of those campy 80's spoofs.

I also agree with Mark that Disney should have sought more insight/input from GL. He may not be able to write a script or direct as well as some, but he definitely has story ideas. And from my perspective, TFA didn't deliver anything better than what he did. And it supposedly had better screen writers and Directors involved...
 
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If there’s anything that nuSW changed my attitude towards— it’s towards George. I appreciate him more now that he’s no longer a part of it. He’s still an awful writer and director, but he’s always kept SW moving forward. Who can say what his version of the Sequel would have been like, but I don’t think he would have remade ANH, and in such an unimaginative fashion.

What RO showed me is that there are talents that are able to produce something fresh, something exciting— maybe not entirely new, but still enriching to the SW-lore. After getting lost in ESB recently, I followed it up with RO. And as much as the latter is a prequel/prologue to ANH, it worked so effortlessly alongside ESB. They have a similar tone, a maturity, a restrained melancholy that compliments one another quite well. So for that, I’m still optimistic that nuSW can work well with classic SW.

(BTW, I do hope TLJ turns out to be solid-- but too much damage has already been inflicted to the Sequel with TFA. I'm not likely going to change my mind about TFA. A vastly superior version already exists: ANH.)
Agreed. I've watched RO more than once voluntarily. Outside of the Vader and Leia scenes, I did enjoy it.

Now that TLJ has been released, I've seen a lot more "wish George was here" sentiments. I guess it took others a little longer to realize what a Lucasless SWs looks and feels like.
 
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^^^ In the immortal words of Joni Mitchell: “Don’t it always seem to go, that you don’t know what you’ve got ‘til it’s gone” …LOL (I’ve always preferred Janet Jackson & Q-Tip’s “Got ’Til It’s Gone” sampling that verse… such hip hop/soul perfection… And the Mark Romanek-directed video, with its sly political undertones dressed up so stylishly and starring those heavenly creatures Stacey Mckenzie and Alek Wek... Such a gorgeous cast :sobs:

And yes— anytime you decide to watch a movie voluntarily, is always a good sign LOL

These poor souls that need to convince themselves to give TLJ a 2nd, 3rd viewing, in hopes that this wreck would get better… I mean, it’s your time and money wasted so more more power to you for such a sadistic infliction onto yourself… If you didn’t like a movie the first time, you’re likely not going to like it the 2nd, 3rd, frankly. I thought it was tolerable when I initially saw it, and that I would likely see it a again when it’s available for home viewing. I have not desire to watch it again when I’ve thought about the silly plot and such forgettable, soulless characters.

One thing about George’s SW, even at their worst, which AOTC and ROTS were, he still refrained himself by inserting any sort of pop culture footprint that will date any movie. Despite the hot mess that the Prequel was, George maintained a genuine nerddom to it; How genuinely nerdy was “Yipppieeeee!” LOL The Sequel tries so hard to be clever, witty wink-wink nerdage— but comes off so corporately processed it’s as genuine as kiss-a*s Collider or chainstore Hot Topic. Yawn.
 
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I have always been someone who felt that if Lucas was not involved then it’s not “real” Star Wars whether good or bad. I’ve always thought of the EU as mass distributed fan-fic and now that’s how I view the new movies. So while I’ve not always agreed with GL’s vision, it was always his story to tell.

The Special Editions of the OT are the one thing I used to say I’d never forgive Lucas for doing. I guess selling to Disney needs to be added to that list now.
 
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The Sequel was always so unnecessary in terms of the overall SW mythology: The Prequel was “Once upon a time, in a land far far away…” and the OT was “And they lived happily ever after.” This Sequel is not only unnecessary, but total farce. It lazily repeats all the plot points and narrative beats of the OT so carelessly and thoughtlessly, and not only diminish the Holy Trinity’s accomplishments, but concludes their sacrifices from the OT absolutely pointless. All was in vain after all, if one accepts this Sequel.

If SW without George is just fanfic, than RO is exceptional EU/fanfic done supremely well (minus the horrendous ending shoehorning/spoonfeeding Leia in there that makes no sense). And I’d openly welcome more one-off stories such as this. RO takes its place deservingly right after ESB, as far as I’m concerned. It’s never about who’s helming and what direction a SW story may be headed— a strong story that is well-directed with impressive characterization is paramount to what makes SW unique. And a decent dose of brilliant design always helps... The problem is simply that the Sequel is just not executed well; either it’s the laziness of TFA, or the sloppiness of TLJ )and it’s so so so sloppy), with gender and identity politics as its only (grand)standing point. I do feel for those that have invested over 30 years into SW, and all the EU supplementary stories in the characters-- and the Sequel is the result that transforms them into a farce.

I can in retrospect, dream about George’s Prequel— with his classic mythological treatment and strong design aesthetic, but given the more mature, more restrained and appropriately melancholic tone and timeless sensibility that Gareth gave RO… What could have been and all that LOL

Post-OT, TPM and RO remains the only SW I need. And in light of this mess of a fanfic Sequel, these two age better and better-- faults and all: TPM retains this childlike, classic fair tale/space opera tone, although I’m sure the majority of lifelong fans would likely deny, is the essence of SW. And RO… after all the juvenile-pandering post-ESB, I’d never thought there would be a SW that sets a restrained, mature and even somber tone that is essentially that skillful balance of a war-story set in a fairy tale world. And that's always been the unique vision that is the best of what SW is. One is apparently George's ideal-- while the other is essentially "fanfic". If only we got the best of both... now that would be my ideal of a glorious Star Wars.
 
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I watched RO over the holidays and I agree this is the best of everything we've seen, since 1980. and you can visibly SEE the "seam" at the end, where they tacked on the goofy ending. I recalled your previous observation, that the movie should have ended on the beach. as soon as vader's star destroyer arrives, the ensuing mayhem feels (a) unnecessary to the story and (b) a different tone from the rest of the film. it's just a bit of connecting-tissue, joining it to SW'77.. which only necessary BECAUSE this is a serial franchise (and we've ALREADY seen the very next scene. LOL). but if RO were a 'stand alone' movie, then that ending would seem completely out of place.

the more I watch this movie, the more I adore it, like SW and ESB. it fits in so well with the tone and feel of the original franchise. (before the muppet show 'bait and switch' that was ROTJ *shudder*). this is all I really want, moving forward. they can tell me ANY story they want, with any character they want -- I'm game -- as long as they capture the "tone" of the original franchise.

with RO, we see, it CAN be done. (this makes it the most 'important' SW movie, post ESB -- regardless of the story -- if only, as a case study on 'how to do it right').



as for TPM. personally, my disillusionment with this franchise happened in 1983.. so I never hated TPM nearly as much as most fans. at that point, I actually expected a muppet show; I wasn't shocked or surprised at the juvenile tone. but you're right, it HAS held up very well to the passage of time. the original SW'77 was absolutely timeless -- there was practically NOTHING in that movie which would tie it to a specific era of western culture (let alone the SEVENTIES when it was made! can you imagine? princess Leia in platform disco shoes!?LOL)

TPM has the same timeless quality. it plays exactly the same today, as it did in 1999. I wonder? will Kathleen Kennedy's Politically Infused bull****, stand the same test of time?

I fear the insertion of identity politics and gender issues will severely DATE NuSW, in the decades to come.. like star trek: they addressed a lot of 'current events' in the subtext of TNG (this show was very preachy for its day); nowadays those same 'edgy' storylines lack any real contextual meaning anymore. (I'm thinking of the one where Riker falls in love with a pan-***ual from the planet-of-Gender-Neutrality -- at the time this was thought provoking for a 1992 audience. nowadays, it seems pretty silly. we have gay marriage now. the world has moved beyond those issues.. therefore, the story doesn't resonate the same way -- it can't possibly -- it's not "Edgy" AT ALL anymore).

one of the Main Ingredients, which make SW what it is, is that "timeless" quality -- where the movie plays exactly the same way, some 40 years later. it doesn't rely on cheap tricks to draw the audience into the narrative (or we'd have seen a cantina in 1977, with a "disco ball" and a Donna Summers Doppelganger as the Cantina Band).*

TPM has this same timeless quality.





* didn't we see this in the original BSG'78? :p yeah.
that was definitely NOT "timeless" LOL --- this BELONGS in the 1970's. and nowhere else. :p
 
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The Prequel was “Once upon a time, in a land far far away” and the OT was “And they lived happily ever after.
Thank you, yes.
SW was never meant to be science-fiction, but rather science-fantasy.
It's got knights, wizards, dark sorcerers, swords, magic powers, princesses, monsters, etc. in a technological setting.

After the fairy tale ending of ROTJ, that foreshadows Luke rebuilding the Jedi, the Republic returning, Han and Leia getting together, etc., the sequel stomps on it all and actually regresses the story and the characterizations.

The sequels don't boldly move Star Wars forward, because they reset the status quo to the past while stomping on the fairy tale tone of SW, and making the OT basically irrelevant.
 
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^^^ The Sequel was always going to be a hard sell had they not lazily and carelessly rebooted the OT the way that they have now.

Frankly, Luke rebuilding the Jedi and Leia rebuilding the Republic always sounded so EU-supplementary, so anti-climatic following the events of the OT. It’s the brand of expansion/ continuation only the most extreme diehards would dig. This treatment would require immense effort— and risk, in order to flesh out an entire trilogy in the same spirit and tone of the OT— all the while evolving the hard-earned status quo of our heroes. And immense effort and risk are not business mottos Disney would ever attempt, ever. They crunched their numbers and came up with the predictable. safe and lazy-buisnessman’s motto of give them the same old same old, just in a shinier and gimmick-riddled packaging (Grrrrl Power Malibu Stacey with a “new” hat. Literally.)

I doubt we’ll ever see George’s treatment for the Sequel. And I double-doubt he would have rebooted ANH/ OT had he been involved with the Sequel.

Cobalt: Still no change of heart towards ROTJ— even after the further mess that this Sequel turned out to be with TLJ…???? I’ve soften for AOTC: It’s still a tacky hot mess— just now it's developed an almost-charming personality. And still not worthy of SW. But still better than this Sequel.

TPM is that brand of true nerdage that can only come from God of Nerd George LOL …And I mean that in the most endearing manner. It’s so sunny, naive and Norman Rockwell 1950s in its sensibilities and old-fashion innocence— thankfully devoid of any pop culture trappings of its time. That’s why it retains such a natural and tantalizing charm about it, even as much of a borefest hot mess as the film was. Juxtapose that brand of singular vision to such an overly-processed production, corporate-by-numbers that TLJ is, with one possessing heart and soul despite its storytelling shortcomings, while the latter reeks of corporate template with the overripe stench of dated pop culture trappings: From the very start of TLJ, it’s riddled with unfunny, already-dated, tired slapstick for the Youtube-generation. The “prank call” is right out of Youtubers doing prank call “challenges”… followed by a “your mama” joke….:sigh: And Laura’s mauve coloured hair is all the rage with these Youtube-types… This Sequel is not just dated, it’s mould-encrusted already.

(BTW, RO is full of subtle teases that quietly connect not only to the OT, but the Prequel and even The Clone Wars in a really clever, worldbuilding exposition-through-conversational-action the way that ANH did. There’s a short scene between Bail Organa and Mon Mothma agreeing on reaching out to Obi-Wan: The conjured history of The Prequel, The Clone Wars (animated series) and ANH’s Leia are altogether seamlessly referenced. God i adore Gareth. And hope hope hope it’s Stephen— maybe even Gareth getting a second chance with SW, that helms the Obi-Wan story…. In the earnest words of the Smiths: "Please please please let me get what I want, this time".)

 
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Other than the hair styles of the OT, I agree, they are timeless. I too think the PT has aged well and I don't see the same happening with the ST. I don't think the ST will ever grow on me.

There are so many issues that I have with the ST. I won't rehash what we all already know. I also felt RO had more of a SW feel and enjoyed watching it. The only real issue I had was with Vader and Leia. Vader didn't seem right and Leia was just creepy. Since it was mere seconds or minutes of screen time, it didn't put me off like the ST.

Thinking back to all the old characters that Disney "brought back", the bulk were just terrible. They seemed out of character to the point that I never felt like I was watching real SW. Heck, Chewy doesn't even seem the same and the dude has a full costume on.

Between the three Disney SW movies, these are the GL characters I was OK with how Disney depicted them (these are who I can remember off the top of my head, so I'm surely missing some):

RO:
Squad pilots, they are the same people, so how couldn't you like seeing them?
Tarkin , I was OK with him. He wasn't Peter, but they did what they could to put him in the story.
Jimmy Smits, he was in it for like what three minutes? He blended in the background, so he didn't bother me.

TFA:
Leia, I think she was the truest to her original character. Not sure how the resistance came to be, but she was still leading a band of rebels and I can picture her putting up the everlasting fight.
Chewy, I think a good amount of it was Peter and he knows what's up.
R2/3PO, I guess they were kinda their normal selves?

TLJ:
Crickets

Having said that, I think the only hope I have for a decent Disney SW movie is if there are little to no GL characters in them. Maybe EP9 has a chance (as long as force ghost Luke isn't cracking jokes and playing a fiddle)? Maybe some spin offs do? Bottom line, if Disney puts out anything I'd consider good SW, I'd be surprised.
 
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^^^ People underestimate the importance of hairstyles in films... The hairstyles of the OT didn’t become jarringly dated until ROTJ; Luke’s Dan Quayle-hair… Mon Mothma’s soccer mum hair… Those damn ewoks giving Leia Elaine Benes’ hair... What even is that Madine is sporting?????? And Han was fat. Leia’s metal-bikini is so dated and unSW: Wasn’t that all the rage during the early-80s? Metal-bikini is the platform shoes of the 80s fantasy-films. Weird: So much gorgeous, visionary designs in ROTJ with all those ships and vehicles— alongside such awful, dated hairstyles and a Heavy Metal bikini LOL

The Holy Trinity should have never been brought back the way that they were so carelessly misused in this Sequel. Harrison and Carrie were blatantly just going through the motions here for the almighty dollar. They were always too cool for SW since the OT, but at least their characters in ANH and ESB were interesting. Han as a character in TFA is a sad regression— like a ghost of a shell damned to repeating its last spirited earthly task. And Leia contributes absolutely nothing to either TFA nor TLJ: She’s just there for the nostalgia, again— like a ghost, clinging on to a past and refusing to move on: Take her out of this Sequel, and the story is the same. Mark was always the best sport of them all, maybe it’s because unlike Harrison and Carrie, he never was a part of Hollywood, so he was always seemed so grateful for the work he did continue to get and just enjoyed working. And with his return in nuSW, shame his story was so wasted ("See you around, kiddo…” Let that sink in as the last line from Luke Skywalker…). Whether a faithless, defeated and hollow Luke may have work or not, what is shown on screen is just so careless in its characterization, and so inept in its fundamental storytelling. There is no story; just a series of segments leading to supposedly money shots with TLJ. Blah.
 
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I'll be blunt, The Last Jedi killed any and all enthusiasm I had for seeing new Star Wars movies. I will never go to a Star Wars movie on opening night again. I hated it that much.

I have a much greater appreciation for the Prequels now.

Honestly, my biggest gripe with the Prequels wasn't even the Prequels themselves. It was that Lucas kept altering the Original Trilogy to match the Prequel trilogy. Putting Hayden Christensen in Return of the Jedi was the last straw. But when I got a copy of Harmy's Despecialized version of the Original Trilogy I no longer had a reason to despise the Prequels. And now seeing what Disney, or more specifically, Kathleen Kennedy has done to Star Wars, I love the Prequels even more.
 
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I had it all written out once, in a 12-page .txt file called "Diatribe". :p I have no idea what happened to it. sorry.




basically it went something like this:

people are annoyed with TPM because they say it has no protagonist, and it doesn't contribute to the 'origin of vader' so therefore it is irrelevant to the saga.
I submit that TPM tells the origin of the Rebellion and the Empire from the OT -- the rebellion came from qui-gon and the Empire came from padme -- these are the two protagonists of the first movie.

- TPM gives us 2 noble ideas from 2 likable characters: "Padme's Militarization" and "Qui-gon's Defiance". the audience agrees with both. Padme's arc tells us that "militarization" is a good thing, under certain circumstances -- she militarizes a peaceful planet against hordes of killer robots, by using the gungan's "Grande Army" to save the day (jar jar's word) she pulls an army out of her own ***; qui-gon shows us "defiance" of authority is necessary under certain circumstances -- he defies the Jedi Council when it comes to "the will of the force"* -- yoda says to obi-wan: "quigon's defiance.. need this you do not".

- AOTC (or "Attack Of The Slippery Slope") uses 2 decidedly UNsympathetic characters to push these 2 noble ideals down the Slippery Slope. the audience DISagrees with both. jar-jar is the gungan half of padme's planet, these 2 characters are inextricably linked -- jar jar takes padme's ideal one step too far when he militarizes the entire galaxy, by using the "Grande Army" of the Republic to save the day (jar jar's word) the republic pulls an army out of its own ***; dooku is qui-gon's jedi master, these 2 characters are inextricably linked -- dooku takes qui-gon's ideal one step too far when he creates a separatist movement in "defiance" of the entire galaxy now. jar jar is motivated by Fear; dooku is motivated by Anger; (both are 'darkside' influences; both characters are hated by the audience).

(yes that's right -- any personal hatred of Jar Jar you may feel, is INTENTIONAL and you are being PLAYED :p as GL says: "Jar Jar is the Key To Everything" -- GL needed an innocent childlike "scapegoat" character to blame for the creation of the Empire -- someone who the audience would NOT sympathize with, for his childlike innocence -- HOW do you create an "innocent childlike character" whom the audience is comfortable to HATE!? this was, indeed, the key to everything... perhaps he went a bit too far?) :p

- ROTS makes anakin choose: padme or qui-gon. he chooses the "padme" position but loses her BECAUSE of the slippery slope (he loses her because of FEAR) -- he burns-to-vader ON a "slippery slope" just to drive the point home visually -- this is the origin of the Empire (note: PADME thought it up -- padme created the Empire when she made the decision to Militarize Naboo against the hordes of killer robots -- Jar Jar was the ONLY one who was present in the room when she made this decision: "yousa peoples gonna die" and "wesa got a Grande Army, that's why you no like us" this is the moment where the lightbulb goes off in her head and she makes the decision to use the Grande Army of the Gungans to militarize her planet. later in AOTSS, jar jar is asked "what would Amidala do" and he KNOWS because he was THERE when the lightbulb went off in her head LOL. he does EXACTLY what she did in TPM, he makes the decision to use the Grande Army of the Republic to militarize the entire galaxy now. it was HER decision from TPM, telegraphed through jar-jar's Fear in AOTSS, which created the empire); when anakin chooses "padme" this forces all remaining jedi (aka: yoda and obi-wan) to follow "qui-gons path" of defiance now -- (but without the slippery slope of the separatist movement) -- this is the origin of the Rebellion.

^^ I submit that this is a BETTER story kernel than the OT; the PT is BETTER written than the OT, hands down. the PT only fails in its 'execution' (which results in 3 seriously BAD movies) because these origin stories fail to translate from the screen to the audience -- most people think these movies are -only- about vader.



* Qui-Gon's Arc tells us the secret of the "balance" prophecy: qui-gon explains in TPM that the role of the Jedi is to interpret the will of the force, and act it out on the macroscopic world -- from his experience we learn, a Jedi who uses the force to enact the will of the force, brings balance to the force and is rewarded with Imortality; a jedi 'order' who uses the force to enact the will of corrupt & evil politicians, brings imbalance (and is destroyed by the Chosen One). it follows, that the Jedi Order ITSELF brings imbalance to the force. because they ignore their own role in the universe -- they ignore the 'will of the force' -- and when Qui-gon called them on it, Mace&Yoda physically rolled their eyes at him.

in this scene we see: the political institution called "Jedi Order" intentionally prevents the individual Jedi Knights, from following the will of the Force... why? because the Jedi Order is tied to the Senate; because they had surrendered their moral authority to the government, 1000 generations ago. when the Republic was formed, the institution called "Jedi Order" was created to keep the "Knights" in line -- in the end, "separation of church and state" was required to bring balance to the force --- but HOW did the "union of church and state" EVER happen in the first place..? now THAT is a story worth telling....
...and it is ONLY told in the "Last Samurai" -- this was the BEST star wars movie that Lucasfilm NEVER made. :p LOL (it is "required watching", to give context to TPM) :p otherwise people get bored in the Senate Scene because they don't understand the exposition *yawn* damn senate scene!

the Jedi Knights are based on old samurai movies, afterall. recall: in "The Last Samurai",
the last remaining Samurai were given a choice: to surrender their Moral Authority** and become government lapdogs.. or face oblivion. they chose "oblivion". they REFUSED to surrender their 'moral authority' to the State. but unfortunately, when when the Saga STARTS in TPM, the Jedi have already done this -- they surrendered their Moral Authority to the state, 1000 generations ago -- at this point, it's all over but the crying. (it's like a "what if" riff on the Last Samurai -- "what if" the Samurai had joined with the government at the end of that film -- how would this destroy them, 1000 generations later?)



** Where the Force is a metaphor for God, and the ability to 'use the force' is a metaphor for god-given Freewill...
..then Star Wars is NOT about "good v evil" -- it's really about Morality (in general). ie: now that you have this thing called Freewill, then WHAT governs your actions?

SW gives us three paths (not just two): the Jedi are concerned with "the needs of the many" -- they use the force to benefit the moral majority -- they derive their moral authority from the popular vote (of corrupt politicians); the Sith are concerned with the neeeds of the Few (or the One) they only care about themselves -- they derive their moral authority from their own selfish whims. in the opera scene on ROTS, this is given as the difference between the jedi and the sith --- the very difference between "Good and Evil" -- but this is not enough to explain "morality" in general***

qui-gon illustrates the third path: follow the will of the force, the way a christian is meant to follow the will of god
(for lack of a better metaphor) -- this leads to immortality. qui-gon derives his moral authority from a Higher Power (as if 'Jedism' was a "religion" *gasp*). qui-gon;'s arc reveals the secret to religious immortality in the SW universe, thus proving that HIS mantra from TPM, was indeed the "correct" path all along: a jedi who uses the force to enact the will of the force brings balance to the force. and a jedi council who uses the force to enact the will of the Senate (when the senate is ruled by a SITH LORD) brings imbalance to the force. hands down.

the "union of church and state" allowed the sith to take command of the Jedi Order -- to control both sides of the force. at some point, there was NOBODY following the will of the force anymore. both sides were "using" the force, like a piece of meat LOL -- (they were using the force AGAINST ITS WILL). so the Force responded in self defense: it spawned the chosen one to wipe out all force users who were ignoring the will of the force. this included the younglings in the temple, the political institution called "Jedi Order", and yes, the destruction of the sith in ROTJ -- anakin killed every known force user who was using the force 'against its will' -- and he destroyed the institutions which made this possible in the first place.

in the end the only one left alive is Luke, and Luke has been taught qui-gon's path -- "let go your conscious self" and "let the force guide your actions". (aka: follow the will of the force). when all jedi are free to follow the will of the force again,
then this marks the return of the jedi and brings balance to the force. (when the senate is destroyed and the JEdi Order no longer exists -- aka: "Separation of church and state" -- then the individual Knights are free to follow their OWN "moral authority" again, like the Samurai of Old...

((UNFORTUNATELY : in the time between trilogies, unseen and off-screen, Luke tried to recreate the Jedi Order as the military companion to Leia's Government and the cycle repeated itself -- but that's OK because Kylo's attempt to "kill the past" was like a "Reset Button", destroying the "Jedi Order" all over again, and killing the snoke-character -- (which is really sort of redundant, since that's exactly what the first 2 trilogies did: 'killed the past', by eradicating the 1000-generations-old "jedi order", and killing the OT-snoke-character Palpatine) --> kylo has now accomplished everything the first two trilogies managed to accomplish BEFORE "TFA" got involved -- (so why did they bother with the ST at all, so far?) -- TLJ has resulted in Rey now following the force blindly, with no "institution" or "Order" to tell her what to do. she must figure it out for herself. she follows her OWN moral authority now, just as Luke was MEANT to do at the end of ROTJ, before "TFA" got involved --> ie: she is the new Luke now, picking up the torch from the exact spot in the story where Luke was standing at the end of ROTJ, where Luke was meant to 'figure it out for himself' and 'follow the will of the force' with no "institution" or "Order" to tell him what to do -- so what's the difference!? she just took over Luke's Story (rather than give her a story of her own). Luke's Role In The Universe from the end of ROTJ has been transferred directly to Rey as she becomes the "new luke" (in his own story) and Rian Johnson burns Old Luke to the Ground for the SAKE of this blatant transposition-of-characters... it's weird.. the story of The Jedi is now back to Square#1-- Rey is standing in the exact same place of the story where Luke was standing at the end of ROTJ -- ((so why did they bother with the ST? so far? it has accomplished exactly nothing. it has returned the story of the Jedi Knights to the final frame of ROTJ)) -- when the JEdi order no longer exists, and the individual Knights are free to follow their OWN moral authority again, like the Samurai of Old...))




***
consider the following scenario: it's the end of the world, the sun has gone dark in a nuclear winter, there is no food. the Government has decreed: there will be no 'hoarding' of food -- they dispatch an army of Jedi Knights to keep the peace, and ensure that NOBODY gets more than their share (the Jedi follow blindly) -- as a result, humanity runs out of food and becomes extinct. meanwhile: the Sith Lord thinks only about himself. he hoards food for himself (and his family) and as a result, Humanity is spared from extinction -- his family goes on to re-populate the planet.
--> which result is "good" and which is "evil"?

as you can see, sometimes "selfish v selfless" is NOT enough to describe the concept of good v. evil -- and WORSE: sometimes the definitions of good v. evil can CHANGE over time -- this is how the Sith were able to take command of the Jedi Order -- by exploiting the concept of 'dynamic morality' (vs the 'static morality' of actual "religion", which is literally written in stone).

example: time was, human beings on planet earth would sacrifice virgins to make the crops grow. they thought this was for the GOOD of all society. but now we know that SAME action to be EVIL. in a system of dynamic morality tied to politics, the definitions of Good and Evil will change over time, depending on the popular vote.. and it is just as easy, for it to swing the other way.. (for things once thought to be "evil", being
now considered "good", by a bunch of corrupt politicians). the "union of church and state" ensured that the Jedi's very source of Morality, would ALWAYS change over time, with no moral compass to guide it -- (given that their 'source of Morality' was the Dysfunctional Galactic Senate) -- Palpatine need only take control of the senate, to take control of the Jedi Order (to control both sides of the force). this is how the Jedi Religion lost their way: by surrendering their moral authority to a system of Dynamic Morality which changes daily according to 'politics', leaving them with NO moral compass of their OWN.

^^ THIS is what Luke inherited at the end of ROTJ: he inherited his OWN moral compass -- the ability to interpret the will of the force FOR HIMSELF.
^^(and this is what Rey inherited at the end of TLJ: she inherited Luke's Role In The Story -- because she HAS no story of her OWN). LOL






...there's more. it went on and on. at one point it was 12 pages in ".txt" format. not including that new bit in small font LOL.
but like I said, I don;t have it all written down anymore -- that old computer died and took its hard drive with it.
farmer likes to joke that I "bring out the powerpoint" every once in a while , but truth be told...? I'm reinventing the wheel every time I type this stuff :p
so naturally I end up leaving a lot of stuff out every time .. (I think farmer's got a long version saved on his desktop :p if he can think of any points that I'm missing? LOL)

point is : there's a LOT going on in the PT which NEVER made it through the quagmire of GL's storytelling to actually reach the audience. (therefore these movies are STILL 'failures' IMO -- I'm not saying otherwise).
but the story kernel is sound. it is a better written trilogy than the OT. (which itself was just made up as it went along, and is really at its heart just a character piece).

in the end, I appreciate the PT's for what GL TRIED to do -- and this makes me a sort of "PT Apologist" on these boards -- but I maintain, the execution was so 'ham-fisted' that the movies still fail overall, and cannot be given a pass.
 
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Cobalt: Still no change of heart towards ROTJ— even after the further mess that this Sequel turned out to be with TLJ…????
my loathing of ROTJ is more visceral than logical. its the SAME thing people feel for TPM: this was the movie which 'stole their childhood' and made them realize that SW is not for them anymore. for me that same betrayal/disillusionment came at the hands of Ewoks (not Jar Jar) -- I would say, Ewoks are my Jar Jar -- and that's not something you can easily forgive. :p LOL

my BEST experience watching ROTJ came on canadian television in the late 80's, it was playing on the French language channel (and I don't speak french). my brother had never seen the final chapter of star wars, so we watched it anyway despite the language barrier. to keep him informed, I provided a running commentary c/w character voices and bad dialog. it was GLORIOUS. half the time he didn't believe me when I provided actual dialog -- when I told him Luke&Leia were brother&sister, he cried 'Foul!' -- he thought I was making the whole thing up :p LOL


^^ after the silliness that was ROTJ, I was immune to Jar Jar.. which is probably why the PT's didn't bother me as much as they did for most people. also my daughter was the perfect age for them, and she loved the PT movies.. so we watched them repeatedly in our house.. which is kind of like exposing yourself to snake venom in order to build up a resistance. so that helped. (otherwise my Prequel Manifesto would never have.. manifested.LOL)

at one point in her young life, she had me play the 'romance' scenes from the AOTC DVD as 'bedtime stories' before she went to sleep -- that lasted about a week -- I had to draw a line in the sand before I was driven completely insane. so instead, as a compromise, I read aloud all the novelizations for every movie in numerical order, one chapter at a time, every night before she went to sleep. (c/w character voices and bad dialog). it was glorious...
 
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^^^ I had no idea an actual 12-page long “Manifesto” existed LOOOL I was only referring to Cobalt’s collective PowerPoint breakdown of the Prequel treatment...

Cobalt: My dad also read me SW when I was little as bedtime stories. I wanted Grimm’s fairy tales and greek mythology, but he was a kind of a SW-nut, and would bore me to sleep with SW... I always wondered how he would have felt with the Prequel had he been around to see them. I’m sure he would have felt insulted by this lazy Sequel tho. (Still can’t believe that TFA is just a inferior, fanfic version of ANH— with Saved By The Bell level of tokenism and flat stereotypes. While TLJ basically plays out as a sloppily cobbled together deleted scenes and deleted concepts from ESB and ROTJ… LOL You thought ROTJ was weak— or that the Prequel was a mess: This Sequel is the ultimate troll...Aaaaaahahahaha...)
 
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Well that's disappointing. Maybe the bulk of it is buried in a thread somewhere on the boards? I wouldn't know where to look. Maybe one of you two do? Or Cobalt can do his sixth iteration of it? I'm sure it gets better every time.
 
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^^^ I’m sure they’re in the old(er) Prequel threads pre- 2015— although which ones exactly, I have no idea… Cobalt’s scattered his numerous musings/ramblings/analysis/editorial throughout those threads. He’s able to restructure George’s half-baked treatment to an almost profound revision. Which is another reason to give the Prequel a little more love in light of this insufferably sloppy and lazy Sequel: That despite George’s output with the Prequel, there really exist such immeasurable potential. I’m convinced that had George allowed his treatment to go through a few more revisions with capable hands— and bring in competent writers and directors— and a strong DP and editor cuz Ben needed to go, the Prequel would have exceeded the OT in its grander ambition and risk-taking vision.

This Sequel… has absolutely no such potential since it’s just remixing and rearranging components of the OT into an unbearable Frankenstein’s Monster. Had they kept on refining TFA— it would just bring it right back to ANH. Literally LOL (And at least TFA had an impossibly magnetic Daisy as Rey. With Daisy having completely checked out in TLJ, there’s nothing there to hold this charmless mess together.)
 
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so, you hate all the new films, and the old films cuz of GL.. not going on opening weekend to a new film will make you feel better? ...does a week later change your take on a film? (it's still KK you know) you might just wanna quit SW all together man, before they put you on depression meds.
I'll be blunt, The Last Jedi killed any and all enthusiasm I had for seeing new Star Wars movies. I will never go to a Star Wars movie on opening night again. I hated it that much.

I have a much greater appreciation for the Prequels now.

Honestly, my biggest gripe with the Prequels wasn't even the Prequels themselves. It was that Lucas kept altering the Original Trilogy to match the Prequel trilogy. Putting Hayden Christensen in Return of the Jedi was the last straw. But when I got a copy of Harmy's Despecialized version of the Original Trilogy I no longer had a reason to despise the Prequels. And now seeing what Disney, or more specifically, Kathleen Kennedy has done to Star Wars, I love the Prequels even more.
 
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I had it all written out once, in a 12-page .txt file called "Diatribe". :p I have no idea what happened to it. sorry.




basically it went something like this:

people are annoyed with TPM because they say it has no protagonist, and it doesn't contribute to the 'origin of vader' so therefore it is irrelevant to the saga.
I submit that TPM tells the origin of the Rebellion and the Empire from the OT -- the rebellion came from qui-gon and the Empire came from padme -- these are the two protagonists of the first movie.......
Shortened the quote so I didn't quote the whole thing, but thanks for taking the time out to post this, was a great read and offered up a lot I had never considered before. Awesome.
 
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The ST has me loving the prequels more and more. I like the story of the PT but the execution--casting and scripting--was extremely uneven. Some parts were just cringe-worthy. It's all stuff I said at that time.

Since, as I see it, the ST has completely rejected/negated/**** upon the OT characters and established concepts I will never accept it on any level. It's all fan fiction to me (because the writing is egregiously sloppy). None of it counts, no matter what Disney tells me. It's below pond scum. And allowing directors to make stuff up on the fly--in the middle of a trilogy--is amateur level producing too.

Whatever flaws the PT had at least Lucas was trying his level best to make a good story. If you get past the telling of it, the PT story is much richer and denser and mature (ep2-3) than the OT. And the PT had plenty of interesting characters and actors. Qui-Gon himself overcomes Jar Jar and midichlorians. And add Darth Maul? Yeah, lots of good there.
 
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Let me start by saying, I wasn't sure where to put this thread. It probably could have gone in the OT, PT, or ST sections. Since the majority of us all like the OT, I figured it would get the most foot traffic here. I checked all three SW movie sections and I couldn't find this topic. My apologies if it's already been discussed.

I know there are many factions of SW fans out there. Those that think the only real SW movies are the OT (some even limit this to just SW and ESB...I think that's you Colbalt, notice I didn't say ANH?) ; those that like the OT and PT, but not the ST; others that like only the OT and ST; those that love all things SW including the OT, PT, and ST...to name a few.

I have friends that that love the OT and hate the PT. I know for a lot of those fans, the ST furthered their hatred for the PT. They saw the ST as finally getting the Star Wars they never got with the PT.

What I'm curious about - are there are any fans out there that loved the OT and hated the PT, only to change their mind after watching the TFA? I'm not asking if you changed into a PT super fan, but anyone appreciate the PT more as a direct result of seeing the start of the ST?

Asking for a friend.
I'd say yes to this. Although I didn't care for them at all (prequels) I can get maybe they were for kids and that was just fine.
 
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I grew up with the OT. I enjoyed the PT and love it despite some of its flaws. To me, it’s still fun to watch all 6 of The Lucas Star Wars films. I enjoy seeing Palpatine come to power, the fall of The Jedi, seeing Ewan Mcgregor nail the character of Obi Wan Kenobi. And, yes I even like Hayden Christiansen as Anakin Skywalker. I thought he acted the part well for what Lucas was asking of him.

But, I think your right. After watching the sequel trilogy, I think my enjoyment of the prequels has gone up for sure. Granted, I always liked them. But, I appreciate them a little more now.
 
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