Dear Hasbro, Regressing on Articulation Is Balderdash.

[somelikeithoth]

I don't think Maverick was necessarily fully agreeing with you; he was opposing you at least as much as he was siding with you, if not more. Also, I never said that this decision was entirely "for the kids". I'd be absolutely stupid to say there isn't at least some small level of greed (whether good or bad) inherent in any decision a corporate entity makes. My point is that it isn't so much them being moneygrubbing, as it is them not wanting to create a failure of a product that doesn't sell as well as it could.

I was saying mass matters in terms of price increases in a single line. Yes, different figures in the same line with different masses sell at the same price, but that's because it would be a nightmare to individually price each figure based on its mass, at least for a retail line. Also: Diamond Select Gotham figures (which are 7" scale, by the way, not 6") retail at $24.99. If you found some at $12.00, they were on sale.

My point about the splitting of profit still stands, because while the same total amount of profit is still being made, the amount Hasbro's getting is nowhere near the absurd amount you claim. An increase in price wouldn't give Hasbro itself nearly as much more money as you claim it would, meaning it's less likely to be flat-out greed.

You mentioned "kids" six different times in your first post, and I'm telling you, it's not about the kids, it's about money.

Hasbro reported $831.2 million in first quarter revenue, a figure that marked a 16% jump year-over-year and easily cleared the $768.4 million analyst estimate. Net income for the quarter came in at $48.8 million — up a whopping 83% over the prior-year period — and resulted in earnings of 38 cents per share, a figure that smashed the analyst consensus by 14 cents per share.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiem...hannel=Investing&linkId=23557347#47b3a9f41b6e

I don't decry them for making as much profit as they can, but rather trying to justify it with bs. On one hand they claim that cost cutting for themselves is for the children, and on the other jack up the price to the same level as if no cost cutting had taken place.

The Diamond Select Gotham figures (I don't collect them just saw them at toys r us) are twelve dollars in store, and 12.99 on the website with no indication that's a clearance price. What line it's in has no bearing on how much plastic is used. If a big fig at 20 inches costs 19.99 using more plastic and a 6 inch Black Series figure also costs 19.99, it's not the plastic that accounts for the cost difference between 3 3/4 and 6 inch Black Series figures.

I'm not claiming those are the numbers, but rather using it as an example of why Hasbro would much rather have collectors buy 6 inch sa figures than 3 3/4 inch sa figures. That's why they are only available in one store, packed full of repaints, and put in boxes to look bigger. It's psychological. We look at something bigger and say it must be worth more because of how much bigger it is, but in reality the extra materials that went into making it that size are negligible. Both in the case of six inch figures size, and in 3 3/4 inch Black Series boxes. It's not a decision for collectors, but rather one for profits.

 

[somelikeithoth]

Same thing with the armor up figures they produced.

 

[Jed_Holkoba]

First of all: those DST Gotham figures were either on the wrong pegs, or there must be some long-term price cut for DST figures at TRU, because their MSRP outside of TRU is absolutely $24.99 (same as every other 7" scale figure they make).

Now we're circling back to where the argument began. My point, from the beginning, was not that "this decision was for the kids" or that it was a good thing; it was that it's not the worst thing in the world, and most kids probably don't care quite as much as some collectors think they do.

 

[somelikeithoth]

Not the worst thing in the wold IF you are willing to collect 5 poa figures, or six inch. If not, it's pretty close to the end of a hobby you enjoyed. All that time being told reduced articulation is for the kids, but pay no attention to the mashers on the next peg over...
http://m.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=86174046

http://m.toysrus.com/entry.point?entry=86174036

Here's a couple of the Gotham figures, like I said, I don't collect them, just saw them in store.

 

[Jed_Holkoba]

Not the worst thing in the wold IF you are willing to collect 5 poa figures, or six inch. If not, it's pretty close to the end of a hobby you enjoyed. All that time being told reduced articulation is for the kids, but pay no attention to the mashers on the next peg over...
http://m.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=86174046

http://m.toysrus.com/entry.point?entry=86174036

Here's a couple of the Gotham figures, like I said, I don't collect them, just saw them in store.

Again, on the Gotham figures: their MSRP is $24.99. On Diamond Select's web store, they're $24.99. On every online retailer, they're $24.99 (unless they're on sale). I don't know why TRU is selling them at such a low price when they're not marked as "sale" or "clearance", but it's definitely not the normal price.

 

[Jed_Holkoba]

http://www.diamondselecttoys.com/gotham

https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/product.aspx?product=DCC11964&mode=retail

https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/product.aspx?product=DCC11962&mode=retail

https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/product.aspx?product=DCC11963&mode=retail

 

[somelikeithoth]

I'm not saying they are. I made it very clear I don't collect them, and it doesn't matter for the point I made. There are a lot of brands that use more plastic but cost less.

 

[Jed_Holkoba]

Yeah, but there are also a lot (possibly a lot more) for whom the price and plastic use are roughly proportional to the rest of the other brands.

Also, in response to the first part of your second most recent post: Kids haven't been collecting for years. This doesn't affect them the same way it does collectors. If you're trying to argue that this negatively affects how kids experience the toys, don't use an argument that doesn't apply to them.

 

[somelikeithoth]

Yeah, but there are also a lot (possibly a lot more) for whom the price and plastic use are roughly proportional to the rest of the other brands.

We've been over this. It's a psychological marketing tactic that feeds off the "bigger is better" mentality a lot of people have.

Also, in response to the first part of your second most recent post: Kids haven't been collecting for years. This doesn't affect them the same way it does collectors. If you're trying to argue that this negatively affects how kids experience the toys, don't use an argument that doesn't apply to them.

So you're back to the it's for the kids thing? Seriously? It's the hypocrisy of claiming kids don't care about articulation while simultaneously producing a better articulated line geared exclusivly to young kids. It's about the excuses Hasbro and other collectors use to justify the change with anything other than the real reason, profit. Stop the spin, and the attempts to pivot. But the mass, and Gotham figures are on sale, and Hasbro doesn't keep all the profits. These are distinctions without a difference. Does the extra plastic and materials used in a 6 inch figure add up to eight dollars or not? Does the licensing fee total 4.50 accounting for the difference between sa Joe's and sa Star Wars, or not? These are the things that need to be looked at to determine the validity of the claims.

 

[Maverick10126]

To clarify my points. The switch was a business decision first. Because SA figures in TVC practically killed the line. They were an expensive venture that failed miserably.

We can talk about all the amazing figures it produced and how much desire there is for said figures but let's look a little closer.

TVC go for an insane amount of money on eBay. Why? Because adult collectors like them and most barely hit the shelves. Most waves skipped the shelves because the first waves didn't sell. Because the first waves didn't sell fast there were limited numbers of even the early waves. With each wave selling in low numbers they weren't recouping the cost of the molds. So guess what, they upped the price to $13 to stop the bleeding. Except it just made things worse. So what you see is a small corner of the market with deeper pockets than kids competing for toys that never were available locally. So on the surface it looks like there's a lot of interest because of the value but in reality it's a small corner of the market competing for a very small part of the overall collection. The whole line was like the original potf line.

So Hasbro kicked the whole SA line to the curb. The desire for SW products wasn't high enough to justify SA figures anymore. They just couldn't guarantee they'd sell like they did in the past and collectors just aren't a big enough share of the market to support SW.

Adult collectors of toys typically go for a 6" scale. SW is weird in that it's almost the opposite. Hasbro created the 6" line to tap into the marvel legends collectors, an already existing share of the market that has proven it can support the scale in a SA format.

I agree that 6" figures don't cost that much more to make than 3.75". Hasbro charges $20 because other companies charge about that much and the size helps justify the price. The 6" now has the same effect as the 5poa line. The margins are much better so it's a lower risk.

Considering how badly TVC performed we are lucky we get any SA figures at all.

The 5poa line is absolutely made for the kids. And by that I mean they hope if they make them cheap enough kids will come back and buy them again. If they get those kids hooked they eventually become adults and graduate to the 6" line.

Do kids want figures without a lot of articulation? No clue. I never did. Kids today? I think they care more about their parents cell phone and Lego video games than anything else.

I do want to add that I think it's stupid Hasbro has gone with an all or nothing stance on articulation.

It's especially stupid considering that some figures have the hands glued into the arms. It would cost them nothing to have those be swivel wrists and I don't think a single 5poa fan would care.

I also think there would be less complaining overall if they went back to knee and elbow joints. Even if the joints were simple pin style joints.

Hasbro is in the business of making money. The fact that we have the black series is pretty much and act of charity on their part. Not enough people bought TVC to justify us getting any SA figures but they are making them all the same.

 

[Jed_Holkoba]

Yeah, but there are also a lot (possibly a lot more) for whom the price and plastic use are roughly proportional to the rest of the other brands.

We've been over this. It's a psychological marketing tactic that feeds off the "bigger is better" mentality a lot of people have.

Also, in response to the first part of your second most recent post: Kids haven't been collecting for years. This doesn't affect them the same way it does collectors. If you're trying to argue that this negatively affects how kids experience the toys, don't use an argument that doesn't apply to them.

So you're back to the it's for the kids thing? Seriously? It's the hypocrisy of claiming kids don't care about articulation while simultaneously producing a better articulated line geared exclusivly to young kids. It's about the excuses Hasbro and other collectors use to justify the change with anything other than the real reason, profit. Stop the spin, and the attempts to pivot. But the mass, and Gotham figures are on sale, and Hasbro doesn't keep all the profits. These are distinctions without a difference. Does the extra plastic and materials used in a 6 inch figure add up to eight dollars or not? Does the licensing fee total 4.50 accounting for the difference between sa Joe's and sa Star Wars, or not? These are the things that need to be looked at to determine the validity of the claims.

I'm not saying the decision is "for the kids", I'm saying it's not as big a deal to them as it is to you! Stop twisting my words! Stop refusing to understand what I'm actually saying!

My point is that it's not a decision of pure greed. Yes, it's a fiscal decision. Of course it is. But it's not Hasbro trying to squeeze every last penny out of us that they can or something. It's Hasbro not wanting to lose money. All the other points I brought up were (1) to back up the fact that, though it is a fiscal decision, it is not one born of greed, and (2) to refute other ancilliary points you were bringing up.

 

[Jed_Holkoba]

Also, the thing about the Gotham figures was just a correction/clarification tangent that was partially unrelated to the main argument.

 

[somelikeithoth]

I'm not saying the decision is "for the kids", I'm saying it's not as big a deal to them as it is to you! Stop twisting my words! Stop refusing to understand what I'm actually saying!

Again with the kids! How can you claim to speak for them, or know if it's important to them or not? To the kids that it's just another toy figure from some movie, I'm sure they don't care, but to the kids that love Star Wars, I'd bet they really do. Kids don't really care that much is pretty much a round about way of saying its for the kids. The kids had nothing to do with it, profits did. If you like 5 poa because it reminds you of the original figures, great. If you like 5 poa figures because they are cheaper, great. If you like 5 poa because you think articulation is ugly, great. But don't hide behind the kids (and Hasbro has done this too). 5 poa isn't a big deal to the kids is just that. See these kids don't really care about articulation as much as someone who collects these figures, so it's ok. It's passing the buck.

 

[somelikeithoth]

To clarify my points. The switch was a business decision first. Because SA figures in TVC practically killed the line. They were an expensive venture that failed miserably.

We can talk about all the amazing figures it produced and how much desire there is for said figures but let's look a little closer.

TVC go for an insane amount of money on eBay. Why? Because adult collectors like them and most barely hit the shelves. Most waves skipped the shelves because the first waves didn't sell. Because the first waves didn't sell fast there were limited numbers of even the early waves. With each wave selling in low numbers they weren't recouping the cost of the molds. So guess what, they upped the price to $13 to stop the bleeding. Except it just made things worse. So what you see is a small corner of the market with deeper pockets than kids competing for toys that never were available locally. So on the surface it looks like there's a lot of interest because of the value but in reality it's a small corner of the market competing for a very small part of the overall collection. The whole line was like the original potf line.

So Hasbro kicked the whole SA line to the curb. The desire for SW products wasn't high enough to justify SA figures anymore. They just couldn't guarantee they'd sell like they did in the past and collectors just aren't a big enough share of the market to support SW.

Adult collectors of toys typically go for a 6" scale. SW is weird in that it's almost the opposite. Hasbro created the 6" line to tap into the marvel legends collectors, an already existing share of the market that has proven it can support the scale in a SA format.

I agree that 6" figures don't cost that much more to make than 3.75". Hasbro charges $20 because other companies charge about that much and the size helps justify the price. The 6" now has the same effect as the 5poa line. The margins are much better so it's a lower risk.

Considering how badly TVC performed we are lucky we get any SA figures at all.

The 5poa line is absolutely made for the kids. And by that I mean they hope if they make them cheap enough kids will come back and buy them again. If they get those kids hooked they eventually become adults and graduate to the 6" line.

Do kids want figures without a lot of articulation? No clue. I never did. Kids today? I think they care more about their parents cell phone and Lego video games than anything else.

I do want to add that I think it's stupid Hasbro has gone with an all or nothing stance on articulation.

It's especially stupid considering that some figures have the hands glued into the arms. It would cost them nothing to have those be swivel wrists and I don't think a single 5poa fan would care.

I also think there would be less complaining overall if they went back to knee and elbow joints. Even if the joints were simple pin style joints.

Hasbro is in the business of making money. The fact that we have the black series is pretty much and act of charity on their part. Not enough people bought TVC to justify us getting any SA figures but they are making them all the same.

Sure, but the entire point of 3 3/4 figures in the first place is they can be accompanied by a vehicle line. 6 inch really can't without getting pretty cost and space restrictive to the customer. I don't have any numbers on this, but the amount of large releases points to a success financially for the vehicles. That needs to be factored in for this analysis as well.

 

[Jed_Holkoba]

Again with the kids! How can you claim to speak for them, or know if it's important to them or not? To the kids that it's just another toy figure from some movie, I'm sure they don't care, but to the kids that love Star Wars, I'd bet they really do. Kids don't really care that much is pretty much a round about way of saying its for the kids. The kids had nothing to do with it, profits did. If you like 5 poa because it reminds you of the original figures, great. If you like 5 poa figures because they are cheaper, great. If you like 5 poa because you think articulation is ugly, great. But don't hide behind the kids (and Hasbro has done this too). 5 poa isn't a big deal to the kids is just that. See these kids don't really care about articulation as much as someone who collects these figures, so it's ok. It's passing the buck.

...Here's a question that will be relevant to this discussion going forward: How old are you picturing the audience for these toys?

The age range of the target audience for these toys is 4-~12. Obviously, kids on the lower end of that age range almost certainly don't care for articulation; hell, they probably don't even have a concept of "articulation". Kids on the upper end are far more likely to be disappointed in a lack of articulation. But kids in the middle? 7-9? Whether they care or not would determine whether kids, on the whole, care that much about it. My guess is, in general, not too much, but that's just a guess. Plus, I have no real good way of polling 7-to-9-year-olds about toys, so I couldn't figure it out. So, inconclusive on whether or not the majority of Hasbro's target audience for these toys would care too much. My guess, again, is not to much, but, as I said, it's just a guess.

 

[somelikeithoth]

...Here's a question that will be relevant to this discussion going forward: How old are you picturing the audience for these toys?

The age range of the target audience for these toys is 4-~12. Obviously, kids on the lower end of that age range almost certainly don't care for articulation; hell, they probably don't even have a concept of "articulation". Kids on the upper end are far more likely to be disappointed in a lack of articulation. But kids in the middle? 7-9? Whether they care or not would determine whether kids, on the whole, care that much about it. My guess is, in general, not too much, but that's just a guess. Plus, I have no real good way of polling 7-to-9-year-olds about toys, so I couldn't figure it out. So, inconclusive on whether or not the majority of Hasbro's target audience for these toys would care too much. My guess, again, is not to much, but, as I said, it's just a guess.

I think you have the range right. The thing is, littler kids have a couple lines specifically made for them in mashers and Galactic Hero's. Mid range and older kids are much more likely to care. The 5 poa figures for the kids idea kind of caters to the lowest denominator, who are already served by two other lines made for them.

 

[Jeremiah2849]

I'm late to the party on this discussion, but I prefer 5POA figures for Star Wars. They look better. Hyper articulation looks like *****, for the most part. All those gawdy joints everywhere. I think Hasbro has the right idea with doing it both ways (the Black series, and the standard lines as well.)

My biggest gripe right now is the disparity in sculpts and paint jobs. For every amazing 3.75in sculpt like Snow Mission Rey or Jungle Mission Han, you get a Jakku Rey or X-Wing pilot Poe Dameron with unremovable helmet.

 

[Sith_Dreamer]

I'd like to throw in that if they are going to do the separate lines for articulation, please stop making the articulated line exclusive. The initial waves are still clogging the pegs at my Walmarts, and no new product is coming in. If I had the money, i'd buy them all and donate them, but sadly, I don't have that kind of money right now. so please Hasbro, if you are going to do this, stop making the 3.75" Black series an exclusive.

 

[Jeremiah2849]

I'd like to throw in that if they are going to do the separate lines for articulation, please stop making the articulated line exclusive. The initial waves are still clogging the pegs at my Walmarts, and no new product is coming in. If I had the money, i'd buy them all and donate them, but sadly, I don't have that kind of money right now. so please Hasbro, if you are going to do this, stop making the 3.75" Black series an exclusive.

Agreed. There's no reason for it.