Blue Snaggletooth - Seperate figure or variation

HWR

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The thread about, what to be considered a complete basic set without variation, made me start this thread.

Seems like we all agree that the two different C-3PO and the three R2-D2 figures all are different figures and not just variations, even through the first ones were replaced with the newer ones. They also have different production numbers, which clearly indicates, that they are different figures.

We also agree that Jawa vinyl/cloth cape, Han Solo small/large head and the DT/standard lightsaber figures all are variations and not different figures. I agree on this as they have the same production numbers, the exact same names and the same cardbacks.

What we disagree about is whether blue Snaggletooth is just a variation of the red one or a completely different figures. The huge difference leans toward it's a different figure, but it has the same name (it was just called Snaggletooth on the packages) and as far as I know it also have the same production number, which leans toward variation.

I used to call it a figure of it's own but is no longer so sure, whether it is, or just a very major variation, I mostly lean towards variation. No matter what, I still believes it belongs in a basic set of figures.
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

there are a lot of differences between the blue and red snagg,so i would say its a different figure.
although its youre own point of view.
1 blue is taller then red
2 blue has boots and red bare feet.

blue has a variation "dent" or "no dent" in the right foot.

hope this helps you out
wink.gif
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

Variation.

It's meant to be the same character. Didn't kenner just design it based on a limited picture and were later told to change it?

It has the same name, unlike things like R2 or C3P0 who have a different name on the card (Sensorscope etc)

These figures were intended to be different figures. Blue/red snag were not.

The number of differences are not enough for me to consider it a different figure. You could just as easily say 'the number of variations' hence making it a variation!
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

I think it falls in both categories, it is of course a variation but for most its also an iconic figure in its own right.

There is no other figure in the line that was produced then scrapped and remade correctly, it has a cool story and when people start out, getting a Blue Snaggletooth is one of the highlights of a loose collection, its something people definitely rank highly when putting a set together.

A variation thats worthy of its own figure status
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

Figure on it's own or variation? It really is a good question when you think about it a minute. For me I almost say variation simply because both figs have the same name. However they are different enough to be considered seperate figures. Also if you look at limelight pics of peoples complete sets you quite often see Blue Snags there. I don't know
confused.gif
, I'm going to go think about it some more.
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

It's a fact, they're technically 2 different figures. I argue this on the fact that Kenner based the two figures on separate characters in two separate formats (movie vs. T.V) and the reference photos confirm this. Blue Snag is based on Takeel and red snag is based on Zutton. I rest my case...
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

I think we should get it right from the horse's mouth.



Vintage_City: Mr. Blue, are you now or have you ever been a variation of Mr. Red?

Mr. Blue: Absolutely not.

Vintage_City: Please tell us why.

Mr. Blue: I'd be happy to. First of all, I am much taller than my friend Mr. Red. Most variations have differences in paint applications or suttle mold changes. My height is not a suttle change. Furthermore, my body is cast in blue, not red. No other figure variation can make such a claim. I am wearing gloves. My face is a totally different color than my friend's and I am wearing knee high silver boots. I was produced by mistake -- that's true. We have the same name -- also true. But I will say this: I was never carded. No loose figure collection is complete without me. I'd say that makes me a figure of my own.

Vintage_City: Thanks, Mr. Blue, for taking the time to clear this up. Back to you, HWR.
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

Brett as Perry Mason. Love it!!!! Case closed! Now where's Della and his beer???
tongue.gif
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

Was the Blue snag changed to Red at the request of Lucas film?
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

It does not matter if they ARE one in the same film character, no loose collection is complete without Mr. Blue

(PERIOD) (END OF STORY) (DONE EVEN) !!!!

-John
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

gary_smith said:
Was the Blue snag changed to Red at the request of Lucas film?

I do believe LFL would have been the one to request the change since Kenner wouldn't have had any reason to do it on their own. Making a change costs money, but it was so late in the game that thousands of the figures had already been sold with the Cantina Adventure Set as well as in the catalog mailer 2-packs through Sears. I have no idea how many though. Tens of thousands probably.

There were 2 Snaggletooth characters created for the film as seen in the note by Stuart Freeborn in this image.

takeel_bg.jpg


Here's a wider shot of him in the Cantina and an LFL file photo. Post-film he was given the name "Takeel". EDIT: These are actually the two different Snaggletooth creatures as noted above. One has a solid head of hair and the other is missing hair, but they are otherwise dressed the same. Looks like one has a more red shirt and the other has a dark orange shirt.

250px-Takeel.jpg


takeel.jpg


Of course, the photo on the red Snaggletooth cardback is from the SW Holiday Special and his name, Zutmore, in the show was later changed to Zutton. And an official figure was released for the POTJ line. Looks like Kenner did what they could to make the red Snaggletooth action figure match the Zutmore image by adding the black accents to the piping around his neck and shoulders. Makes sense that Kenner kept the torso designsince it was already tooled up, but if they really wanted it to match that guy they would have just painted the gloved hands black (retaining the arm tooling) and sculpted him with boots/shoes since they were definitely changing the legs.

Where the hairy hands and feet came from is anybody's guess, but perhaps it was because you can't really see his feet here so they might have wanted more variety than just plain boots. His arms are out of scale with the legs which puzzles me because they obviously changed the arm molds, so why not just go ahead and make them shorter?

zutton.jpg


zutmore_sitting.jpg


Here's the Kenner figure design drawing with a date of January 1978. Keep in mind that the SW Holiday Special was in November 1978.

blueprint-snag-color.jpg


As a side note, there's this ESB school folder made by the Stuart Hall company and the Snaggletooth shown is blue, but he's short. The outfit is completely wrong and he's got a cape, but he's blue. Although the masks were from the Cantina I think they were coming up with new uses for these aliens somewhere in ESB and judging from the photo it would have been on Cloud City, but that never made it to the film.

sy2120e.jpg


The Blue Snaggletooth figure so different from the normal Snaggletooth that it definitely is a leap to state that it's only a variation since that term is used to describe sometimes miniscule differences these days. It's so different that it might as well be a different figure.

People can never agree what a "complete" figure set consists of and it's been this way for years. I personally think that a figure collection isn't complete without one of these.

-chris
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

Guy Smiley: "Mr Red, what do you say to rumours about you having Mr Blue killed off the line simply because he was taller than you, had the wrong colour spacesuit, & the wrong colour skin, & was wearing latently silver spaceman boots...?"

Mr Red: "This interview is OVER!"
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

Jedi534 said:
It's a completely different figure... All Together...

Group (in unison): "it's a completely different figure"
 

HWR

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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

Very great input guys, I'm glad this turned into this serious discussion, I was hoping for.

Brett, that Perry Mason imitation is just hilarious.

Chris, thanks for providing all this very interesting background information. This really sums it all up.

So after reading the responses, I must say by today's definition of a variation, Da Blue Guy is a different figure.
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

You know, I will even go a step further and say that the following image was probably the one Kenner worked from when they originally designed Snaggletooth (the blue one). The story in Sansweet's SW:FCTSTC book (1992) stated that Kenner only had a waist-up photo to work from. Furthermore, the light coloration of the face, dark hair color, hairline, and ears exactly match the final look of the Blue Snaggletooth head. This LFL file photo is from the Star Wars Chronicles book (1997).

Since you really can't see the costume at all, the designer had to make it up himself. I mean the designer made up the outfits and colors for Greedo, Hammerhead, and Walrusman, as well and those were never corrected.

Actually, I bet the designer made Snaggletooth blue because Walrusman was already brown/orange. I never thought of this before. It makes sense given that he had to invent the look of the Snaggletooth body anyway. Making Snaggletooth blue just added more breadth to the Cantina creature line-up.

takeel.jpg


As a side note, the original design for Walrusman was probably the closest rendition of the Cantina creatures since he had an orange jacket and brown pants as seen in this early Cantina playset mock-up. This was basically the outfit that he wore in the film, but I'm not sure where the final colors came from. Kenner and LFL really blew it here.

kennercataloguecantina.jpg


The best image of this Snaggletooth creature was from the streets of Mos Eisley and seen in a clip from the SW Holiday Special which included several unused scenes from the movie. As you can see from here, he wasn't short. He also had bare, humanoid, hands. The original shirt and pants exist now, but the rest of that mannequin was customized.

SnagglequinWEB.jpg


Here's an image that shows both Snaggletooth creatures. The outfits appear the same and the hair is the biggest difference between the two. The character in the middle is the one seen in the outdoor shot above and the one on the right side is the one inside the Cantina.

21b20f80.jpg


Perhaps because Snaggletooth was barely seen in the original movie and was more visible in the SW Holiday Special, LFL thought that he should be changed. Or maybe they forgot he was even in the film since you had about a second to see him on screen in the final cut. This group shot from the SW Holiday Special shows his shorter stature when compared to the rest of the creatures.

cantina_denizens_4.jpg


The gray-colored face most likely came from his darker appearance in this show. As you can see, the mask was changed to have much more detail. They probably made a new mask from the older mold because the hair is different also. This more detailed SW Holiday Special mask was the one used in the ESB Stuart Hall folder I mentioned earlier.

So the reality of the situation is that red Snaggletooth is actually a STAR WARS HOLIDAY SPECIAL figure!

10.jpg


How's THAT for a variation!
smile.gif


-chris
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

ChrisGeorgoulias said:
How's THAT for a variation!
smile.gif

Nah, you put entirely too much work and thought into that.
I think I actually learned something interesting too, unfortunately.
Give me yellow caped Bibs and whether or not my Vader has a TAIWAN coo or MADE IN TAIWAN coo any day of week.
laugh.gif


But seriously, cool information (as usual) Chris.
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

Nice work Chris. I for one believe he is a variation as well.

One thing I want to add to the thread is did the Blue Snaggletooth action figure inspire the outfit used in the Holiday Special and then Red was born?



As you can see the belt buckle is the same used on the figure as was used in the special as was used on the action figure.
grin.gif


I know somewhere on the 'chive there is a designer's business card with the same design, but does anyone know the time tables of when the Blue Snaggletooth was released, when the character Zutton was designed, when the Red Snaggletooth was released and how the business card comes into play?

Mark
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

I learned that "Hotlinking is for Monkeys" and that Snaggletooth wears those ugly UGG boots. LOL

John
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I know somewhere on the 'chive there is a designer's business card with the same design, but does anyone know the time tables of when the Blue Snaggletooth was released, when the character Zutton was designed, when the Red Snaggletooth was released and how the business card comes into play?

[/QUOTE]

It's this business card design theory that makes me believe that Holiday Special Zuttmore/Zutton was actually modeled after the Kenner figure. That said, it supports the FACT that THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE FIGURES!!!
tongue.gif


p.s. talk about six degrees John, but I always refer to those hideous UGG boots as Leia Hoth boots to this day.
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

Certainly seems coincidental about the buckle and it's pretty similar, but I can't help but think the timing doesn't work. The Blue Snag was designed in Jan 1978 but the playset was largely sold later in the year. That would have been about the time that the Holiday Special came out (November). They would have had to film that thing at least in October.

I got the Cantina Adventure Set for Christmas of that year. The figure just couldn't have been on the market long enough to inspire the costume, if it was on the market yet anyway. I also don't think Kenner would have inspired an LFL design, especially something so inconsequential as the buckle. I doubt the SWHS costume designers were familar with a Sears-only toy at the time.

Blue Snaggletooth design


-chris
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

Josh_Blake said:
I'm seeing more than one variation here
tongue.gif


variation.jpg
I like the way snag is sitting on a typical 1970's kitchen stool. I guess that they had a sears on tatooine.
he looks like an ugly kid waiting for a bowl of cheerios
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

Yehuda_K said:
Josh_Blake said:
I'm seeing more than one variation here
tongue.gif


variation.jpg
I like the way snag is sitting on a typical 1970's kitchen stool. I guess that they had a sears on tatooine.
he looks like an ugly kid waiting for a bowl of cheerios

And some Tang.
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

I also think it is a variation, albeit one of the most important ones (if not THE most important one). If Kenner really had designed the figure after 2 different characters then why didn't they give each a different name?

Both figures are really different regarding paint & plastic colour, but talking exclusively about moulds/toolings only the legs changed.

To me red Snag looks more like Takeel than Zutton Jackson, and also Takeel was actually in the movie.

Carlos
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

I personally believe that the blue Snag is an inaccurate Kenner E.U. [like Greedo/Walrus Man/Hammmerhead] representation of the Snivvian from A New Hope whilst the red Snag is an inaccurate Kenner E.U. representation of the Snivvin from The Holiday Special.
None are what they purport to represent, thier true selves are not truly realised untill the modern Hasbro versions.
S?:>}
Edited for editorial content.
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

I've made several edits to my previous two responses and learned quite a lot while looking into this issue closely. I've literally spent hours on this, but it's been a fun experience and now I feel confident in saying the following:

I think it's pretty clear now that these are technically 2 different figures designed after 2 different characters, but that wasn't the actual intention at the time. I bet that everyone (Kenner/LFL) thought it was supposed to be the same character when they were making the change, based purely on the look of the mask.

If the Kenner designer hadn't picked blue over maroon originally I think it would be easier for people to visualize. Since these character names weren't developed until later in the game, they were referred to as their generic name "Snaggletooth" given by either LFL or by Stuart Freeborn's team.

So now we would say:

Blue Snaggletooth = Based on Takeel
Red Snaggletooth = Zutton (a.k.a. Zutmore)

The modern Hasbro line got their Takeel and Zutton figures right and those had the correct heads and costumes. However, when Hasbro went to make their modern "Blue Snaggletooth" figure, as an homage to the vintage line, they simply made a blue version of Zutton that used repainted Ponda Baba (Walrusman) legs. That, technically, isn't correct and the LFL photos prove it.

-chris
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

Henrik, would you mind changing the title of this thread to somehow have "Blue Snaggletooth" in it? I suspect this will be good reference in the future, but it will be difficult to search for with the current title.

I would suggest: "Blue Snaggletooth - Figure or Variation?"

Or something like that.
smile.gif


Thanks!

-chris
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

gary_smith said:
Variation.

It's meant to be the same character.

Wrong! I haven't read the whole thread yet, so probably others have pointed this out already. But, no... its not the same character. The blue snag is based on the the snaggletooth in SW:ANH, while the red snag is based on the one pictured in the SW Holiday Special. Both characters have different names, and appear in different places. Plus a different mold. So definately not a variation.

Leif
 

HWR

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Re: Blue Snaggletooth - Figure or variation

Wouldn't mine at all Chris. And thanks for providing all this background information on the topic, very interesting reading.
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

Leif_G said:
gary_smith said:
Variation.

It's meant to be the same character.

Wrong! I haven't read the whole thread yet, so probably others have pointed this out already. But, no... its not the same character. The blue snag is based on the the snaggletooth in SW:ANH, while the red snag is based on the one pictured in the SW Holiday Special. Both characters have different names, and appear in different places. Plus a different mold. So definately not a variation.

Leif

The figures design may have been based on different characters true. But the actual figures is meant to be the same. One was changed in preference of the other.

It's different to say the WBG and BBG, where one was not used to replace the other. In case of the Snag the intention was to have one snag character.
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a vari

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font>
In case of the Snag the intention was to have one snag character.

[/QUOTE]

I'm not so sure... I personally think that once more reference photos surfaced/the movie was released, Kenner realized their mistake and decided to instead cast the figure in red. This was probably around the same time that Kenner was considering ideas for the Holiday Special (i.e. the Wookie family) and thought they could make the correction and simultaneously tackle one of the characters from the HS Cantina scene. Kenner simply incorporated existing tooling and knocked out a second (new) character to tie in with the release of HS. This made their initial mistake a win-win situation for marketing & sales (at least until Lucas decided to bury the Holiday Special and anything related to it). This theory is plausible, simply because Kenner would have probably just changed the color of the figure and not gone to the trouble (and cost) of re-sculpting limbs to make it shorter.

p.s. Hasbro probably learned a lot from this model. Change color + tweak sculpting = sell twice the figures.
smirk.gif
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

gary_smith said:
In case of the Snag the intention was to have one snag character.

No, I don't think so. They may have intended to have just one figure originally, but that went out the window when they messed up the first figure, and decided to release a completely different figure to correct the situation. Kenner wasn't fixed as much on specific minor characters at the time. Species was all that mattered. They could have easily marketed the red snag as being based on a picture from the SW:ANH, but they didn't. They included a picture of a different character from the Holiday Special.

Kenner was simply not character specific at the time. Take the 'Imperial Officer' figure. It is General Veers pictured on the card. Yet people generally don't think of the figure as being specifically General Veers. Meanwhile, 'AT-AT Commander' is associated with General Veers, even with kids who never saw the Canadian Sears 'General Veers' version of the figure, simply because we only ever saw one AT-AT Commander in ESB. Were there other AT-AT Commanders in the SW universe? I would assume so. Yet the 'AT-AT Commander' figure is most often associated with General Veers, even though his picture doesn't appear on the card, and his name didn't appeared on most of the cards sold. Different figures, but some could argue its the same character. But there's nothing to say for certain it is.

But even that issue aside, in the strictest sense of the word 'variation', where collecting vintage is concerned, completely different sculpts are not considered variations, and only minor sculpt variations are usually found in variant figures. Variations are differences in figures that were presented as the same figure. For instance, molded legs Hoth Han Solo, versus painted legs Hoth Han Solo. Or 'Made in Taiwan' Biker Scout versus 'Made in Mexico' (LL) Biker Scout. If someone were to consider it a variation, it would be because there wasn't any exact precedent for the snaggletooth situation, and it would be a 'major variation'.

True, having the same figure name (Snaggletooth) is generally one indication of two variants being considered the same figure. But it's only ONE indicator. There are many others, and they all suggest 'different figure'. The Bespin Security Guard figure clearly indicates that having the same name on the package, is not enough to equate to being the same figure.

'Intention' only gets you so far in terms of establishing variation vs different figure, IMO. Mainly because you cannot establish exactly what the intention was. Also, there aren't really exact precedents for the snaggletooth figure, which is why there will alway be differing opinions. But clearly, they are not based on the same character, not made from the same mold, and thus not the same figure. I think if you placed them side by side, and ask any 5 year old kid if they were the same, you'd get a very clear answer to that effect.

There's actually a very strong argument for considering the Blue Snag both a different figure and major variation, at the same time. But it's clearly a different figure in any case.

Leif
 
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Re: blue Snag: a figure of it\'s own or just a variatio

Just to muck things up a bit...

If Blue Snag is a separate figure, than wouldn't the three-legged R2 from the Droid Factory have to be considered one as well?

I personally don't intend to collect a Blue Snag as part of my loose collection, because he wasn't commercially available in Canada. Even if he were, I'm more inclined to consider him part of the Cantina Playset, rather than a separate figure, since that's the only way he was available off the shelves.
 
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