AFA/Cloud City question

Guest · Sep 8, 2003

Originally posted by Tom@CloudCity.Com:
I was simply saying that AFA moved from Michigan to Georgia.

Thanks

Tom

Ah..I was hoping it was just a bad choice of words. Anyway I don't really have a dog in this fight as I don't collect graded figures, but I do care about the hobby and graded figures are a big part of it. Your reputation is well earned and IMO you really should have known better than to buy stock in AFA. I know that you keep saying that CC doesn't have any affiliation with AFA, but *YOU* are Cloud City. You may be incorporated, and have people working for you, but in this hobby Cloud City = Tom Derby. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but if I were you I would sell my share of AFA. On the bright side your non-denial of personally owning shares of AFA is testament to your honesty. I personally believe you are doing nothing shady with the grading. I have been in this hobby as long as you have and have never heard a bad word uttered about the service you provide, but if the perception is that you own AFA it will permeate the hobby and that can't be good for anyone.

Dan

Dan

Dax · Sep 8, 2003

Just playing Devil's Advocate here and I would like to state that I have nothing but respect for Tom and his team.

However, so far we have seen statments that Cloud City and AFA are not owned by either company. Nor are they subsidiaries of either group. Clear enough.

Then we have a statement that no person is both an owner of Cloud City and AFA. Again, clear enough.

It does seem pretty obvious to me though that Tom has carefully skirted around the issue of whether he personally holds any sort of vested financial interest in AFA. We know that he does with Cloud City but you don't have to be an owner of AFA to have a financial interest in that company.

Is it any of our business? Unless there is some serious questioning about integrity issues with gradings, substantiated by some proof of such actions then I don't believe we have any entitlement to that information. I don't see that there is any compromising of the services provided by AFA so it's really a moot point. Still, it's interesting to see all the fine strands that make up the collecting web

robwolf · Sep 8, 2003

I have nothing but the highest level of respect for Tom and Cloud City, but AFA is not a perfect organization - it's impossible for any grading (unless done by robots) to be 100% perfectly consistent.

That being said, why is everyone focusing purely on ownership? I think it's clear that Tom might have some money invested in AFA - but if they hike the grades of his figures up for that point alone, it would then be a worthless grading system.

But, Tom is far and away AFA's largest customer (I know, we've all sent in a lot of them, but I can guarantee you Tom has sent in more). If anything, he's going to get some borderline "calls" to go his way, much like veteran athletes or outstanding customers would. It just makes business sense sometimes - if they are trying to decide between an 80 and 85, and somehow they know it's a Cloud City order (which, by the way, they don't know most of the time), then why not give the good customer the benefit of the doubt sometimes (not all of the time)?

I have been jealous on several occasions as to the borderline calls that Tom has received, but to the extent they truly were borderline, then he has honestly earned it - not because he might or might not have provided some of the start-up money or because he secretly has some sort of ownership interest (which he has expressly stated that he doesn't), but because he sends them 1000 figures per year (approximately, I would bet).

If I sent them 1000 figures, then a) I'm going to get borderline calls, and b) the more I send in, the more likely I am to score 90s, just because of the odds of 1 in 75 or 100 figures grading a 100. Sure, if you could track the data, Tom has probably received more grades of 90 and/or 95 than anyone else. BUT, he's also sent in considerably more figures than any other customer, as well.

dockingbay97 · Sep 8, 2003

All I can know for sure is I am sure CC will never sell me anything again after starting this thread.

oceans11 · Sep 8, 2003

i was going to make this statement earlier but decided to wait to see how this played out, but here i am now.

tom may or may not have stock interest in afa. there are two things that play into this:

1) the fact that cloud city/tom have an excellent reputation. this isn't something that happened overnight. this has taken time and effort and knowledge and a lot of interaction with many people (a lot of whom frequent these boards). i have had nothing but positive experiences with tom and his staff for the handful of deals that i have done with them. i have not seen any negative posts about him or his company on these boards, nor have i heard anything negative from anyone. not saying that there isn't the one or two unhappy customers but i haven't seen the general posts questioning their credibility like i have seen with some other dealers who will remain nameless. tom isn't foolish enough to ruin this reputation that he has worked at. the cloud city name alone will get respect from serious collectors. check ebay... cloud city auctions seem to go a bit higher than others that are not cloud city (there have been other threads that have tackled this subject, though a lot of them dealing with cloud city and afa auctions). tom also knows that the collector community is really good at smelling a rat and calling him out (see other questionable dealer to remain nameless who is the subject of several threads). why jeapordize this with an ownership affilition and scam with AFA. it would be so short term for monetary gain and in the end tarnish cloud city's name beyond repair.

2) if he really needed or wanted, part ownership isn't the only way to get things graded higher. he could make arrangements and sent them an envelope full of cash (large denominations of course). not saying that he is doing this or that afa could be bought off, but there are other options. a few thousand extra in cash might make the figure be the next grade or two higher. i am sure this is not happening due to #1 above.

and in regard to tom's statements supporting afa, from a dealer standpoint this makes sense. less work for seller in describing condition, less speculation on the part of the buyer to determine how this matches up to their personal grading system. ideally it should make it easier for selling. (leaving any afa inconsistencies out of this post).

until there seems to be a glut of afa high graded bad condition figures coming from cloud city, i dont' think we have to worry.

oceans11 · Sep 8, 2003

originally posted by dockingbay97

All I can know for sure is I am sure CC will never sell me anything again after starting this thread.



yeah, you've been added to the black list of the elite super secret inner circle of star wars collectors. you will be relegated to only being able to buy beat up trashed figures of general madine and nein nunb for the rest of your collecting days.

dockingbay97 · Sep 8, 2003

Originally posted by oceans11:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
originally posted by dockingbay97

All I can know for sure is I am sure CC will never sell me anything again after starting this thread.



yeah, you've been added to the black list of the elite super secret inner circle of star wars collectors. you will be relegated to only being able to buy beat up trashed figures of general madine and nein nunb for the rest of your collecting days.

[/QUOTE]I can't even be thrown a Klatuu or Bib?

Phillip_Johnson · Sep 9, 2003

I will add a few things on this topic, although I stay away from these threads.

I have been to both AFA and CC probably more than anyone posting in this thread. I can walk into CC and they know me, not the same at AFA. This meaning little,minus the fact that the AFA guys were all hired outside of CC. The remarks about Tom getting better grades, I can give three examples of how I do not feel that is the case.

Tom sold my G.I Joe Collection for me last year around the time that AFA moved down here. I had him get the higher end stuff graded and asked him to send it in under his name. I am not knocking AFA, But we had to wait an extremely long time to get them graded (50 or so figures) and by NO means were they overgraded.
I had one 90 and mostly 80/85's. I had a Firefly that was case fresh and Tom and Myself had already expected a 95 and it did not reach that. You would think if he had influence over the grades I would have got those 95's.
I also had a VC jawa out of the cases that keep getting 95's, Tom sent mine in, it got a 85.
I have sat with Tom and have personally heard him say that their grading is far to strict. Myself thinking that with all the figures he sent in, you would think they would get better. In reality, do you think their operation is set up to where they can grade Tom's figures better?If this is the case they have two operation procedures and I surely doubt that.
The figures sit in bin's with numbers on them, and it appears they have multiple folks deal with the grading process, with a couple doing the final grades. I think at that point the figures are just numbers until the sticker is printed. I do not work for them, but have hung out there waiting on a few figures and that is how it looked to me.

This is just a few examples of what I have seen. I have known Tom for 10 years or so and I do not think he would risk his reputation on something like this.

My 2c
Phil

[ 09-09-2003, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Phillip Johnson ]

Justin_Kerns · Sep 9, 2003

Originally posted by robwolf:
But, Tom is far and away AFA's largest customer (I know, we've all sent in a lot of them, but I can guarantee you Tom has sent in more).

This is not true. Neither CC nor Tom are AFA's biggest customers.

This is all really very simple. We know that there is no connection between CC and AFA at the corporate level. That leaves only Tom's personal ownership.

There are only 4 possibilities:
1. Tom owns stock in both companies.
2. Tom owns stock in neither company.
3. Tom owns stock in CC only.
4. Tom owns stock in AFA only.

Isaac has stated and Tom has confirmed that #1 is not true. Beyond that, it is none of our business what his personal investments are. All opportunities for conflict of interest have been eliminated.

Justin

iHu · Sep 9, 2003

Originally posted by deluca:
Just to add one more thing to my thread. When I refer to duel ownership, I don' mean CC owning AFA. I am really just say if some or one of the Owners/Share holders has stock or interest in the other.

OT and not to harp my friend, but the word you've used several times in this thread s/b "dual" (twin or two) not "duel" (like a gunfight) -- classic homonym trip-up thing....

[ 09-09-2003, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: iHuman ]

The_Twisted_Sithster · Sep 9, 2003

This is not true. Neither CC nor Tom are AFA's biggest customers.

Who is? Albert? (Serious question.)

BTW, Justin, just can't help but throw a couple of things out there for consideration:

I don't think Tom actually categorically denied that HE owns a part of AFA. What he actually said was this:

Although I don't plan to address questions about my personal financial status or personal holdings because I don't believe it is a public topic, I will address a few other questions and concerns listed in the posts above.

Regarding the workaround assumption posted by dockingbay97 that suggests Cloud City owns a part of AFA: I can assure you that Cloud City does not own any fraction of any percent of AFA.

While CC may not own part of AFA, I think the door is open for the possibility that Tom may. Also, look back at the language of Isaac's explanation on the SLU board, and then look at the link that Tom provided to the CC corporate filing status page on the GA Sec. of State's website. Notice on the latter that all identified CC officer positions and CC's registered agent are identified as Jayna Derby, not Tom. While this certainly doesn't mean that someone other than Tom owns CC, it at least presents the possibility, and if that were the case, then it could be technically true, in a truly Clintonian sense, that "no person" owns stock in both CC and AFA.

Again, I don't have anything against Tom or his operation, and I think he is certainly one of the "good guy dealers" in the hobby. However, as I look back on and think about this more today, I get an increasingly uneasy feeling that there are some very carefully worded answers being given here, and that we aren't being let in on the full picture. If I'm wrong about that, I certainly apologize to everyone involved.

I think I'm going to go ahead and pay to get some of those public corporate filings for the two companies and see if they shed any light on any of this. If not, so be it. But my curiosity is piqued, and if there is pertinent info on this issue that is a matter of public record, I think it is fair game for public consumption and consideration.

Chad

[ 09-09-2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: The Twisted Sithster ]

Todd_Hudson · Sep 9, 2003

First of all after careful review of the statments and looking at some things. Tom says he does not own stock in both companies and I beieve this 100% true but what he doesnt state is that his WIFE doesnt own a piece of either company. If his WIFE or a TRUST own a piece of the company then he would be correct with the statment that he doesnt own stock in both companies, and if I remember correct CC is not registered to Tom but to his wife.
-Todd-
I'm not trying to complicate the matter because I see no problem with having ownership in 2 companies that can bring in the cash to the Derby family,and do not believe that CC or Tom or any member of CC would try to influence a grade from AFA, neither do I believe that AFA could be influenced by CC or any other dealer.

Phillip_Johnson · Sep 9, 2003

CC is not registered to his wife.

Phillip_Johnson · Sep 9, 2003

Chad,
Thanks you for being the ambassador for all that is good and legal in the Star Wars hobby. :^)

Phil

[ 09-09-2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Phillip Johnson ]

The_Twisted_Sithster · Sep 9, 2003

Chad,
Thanks you for being the ambassador for all that is good and legal in the Star Wars hobby. :^)

Phil

Predictable as clockwork, Phil. Can always count on you for a good (if not easy) lawyer jab or two. Actually, I think the impulse expressed in my last post was more journalistic in nature than lawyerly, but perhaps that's just semantics.

But you know what, after reading your response, it's caused me to rethink my intended course of action a bit. I may go ahead and pay for the copies of those corporate governance records just for the sake of appeasing my own personal curiosity, but I guess any further info on this topic of any kind, from any source, isn't my place to comment upon any further than I have. When it comes right down to it, even if Tom did own a part of AFA, whether he discloses that publicly or not really is his business. And even if he did personally own part of it, I'm still left with the overarching sense that he's a totally trustworthy guy, and one of the truly good and positive players in the hobby.

There has certainly been enough strife here of late, and I've certainly been guilty of helping to fan those flames in many instances, and more of it just isn't worth it for anyone involved. So I leave it there, and wish Tom, his employees, and his satisfied clients the best.

Peace.

Chad

[ 09-09-2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: The Twisted Sithster ]

Phillip_Johnson · Sep 9, 2003

Chad,
I did not mean it as a lawyer stab, and i put a smiley :^), I just noticed that after you first asked if Albert was AFA biggest customer, you edited it and added the research element.
I for one have nothing to gain or lose from any of this, and just wanted ot give solid hands on facts of what I have seen and delt with.
I will stay out of this as I wonder what amazement will be found. Get ready to email out all computer manufacture's as someone in his family "may" own such a company and shame on them.

Phil

[ 09-09-2003, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Phillip Johnson ]

Justin_Kerns · Sep 9, 2003

Originally posted by The Twisted Sithster:
I don't think Tom actually categorically denied that HE owns a part of AFA. What he actually said was this:

I was actually referring to this statement:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kerns:
On the SLU board Isaac stated:

"1) There is no person who is both an owner of AFA and an owner of Cloud City. Each is owned by separate people."

I believe the question above was addressed here.

Tom[/QUOTE]I interpretted this as an endorsement of Isaac's statements.

While CC may not own part of AFA, I think the door is open for the possibility that Tom may.

This possibility has already been eliminated per my post above.

I can understand people's curiosity but the fact of the matter is that no one should have to publicly share their personal investment information. Especially when they have been accused of no wrong-doing. I believe in this strongly, which is why I bothered to post here.

Justin

The_Twisted_Sithster · Sep 9, 2003

Chad,
I did not mean it as a lawyer stab, and i put a smiley :^), I just noticed that after you first asked if Albert was AFA biggest customer, you edited it and added the research element.
I for one have nothing to gain or lose from any of this, and just wanted ot give solid hands on facts of what I have seen and delt with.
I will stay out of this as I wonder what amazement will be found. Get ready to email out all computer manufactors as someone in his family "may" own such a company and shame on them.

Phil

Fair enough, Phil. Sorry if I misconstrued your post. Guess I'm still stinging from that "Jordan retainer" comment in "that thread" awhile back.

At any rate, you needn't worry about me stirring this public hornet's nest any further. Bottom line: While I'm curious to know what's really here, it really doesn't matter to me in the grand scheme, and I don't want to be a part of doing anything that could be unfair to Tom. I understand why people are asking these questions, and I think they're valid to a large extent. But that said, pushing it any further won't serve any constructive purpose (and I'm trying to exercise better judgment in that regard these days). Whether Tom owns a piece of AFA or not wouldn't affect my own willingness to deal with either going forward (such as it may be), and so I guess there's no reason for me to be terribly concerned about what the community ultimately learns or doesn't learn in this regard.

Once again, peace.

Chad

BryanSimmons · Sep 9, 2003

Originally posted by Phillip Johnson:
CC is not registered to his wife.

From a business license standpoint, I'm not sure what you mean here. Jayna Derby is the listed name for all the pertinent officer positions in Cloud City Collectibles Inc. This is a matter of public record:

http://www.ganet.org/cgi-bin/pub/corp/corpsearch?corpid=K818298

Phillip, for your statement to be correct one or both of the following would have to be the case: a) Jayna is not Tom's wife, she is his sister (we know not), or b) there has been an officer change at Cloud City since the Georgia Secretary of State filing. "B" certainly is likely, although in NC when you should submit a new Corporate Resolution to the Secretary of State when you change officers. Not sure what Georgia requires.

For the record, I happen to use this method of ownership detective work in North Carolina when I want to call on a prospective client to solicit retail and commercial bank business. I don't want people to think that Chad has posted a link to something that's nefarious

, this "tool" of searching for company officers is used every day by those in the legal and business world.

[ 09-09-2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Darthbryan ]

Chris_Mueller · Sep 9, 2003

Even if Tom does have ownership in AFA, what's the big deal?

Everyone here knows Tom is an honest guy. I don't think that anyone could say that Tom sells over graded AFA figures. Isn't that what this is all about? As long as a Tom Derby AFA 80 looks the same as a John Doe AFA 80, then what's the big deal?

Chris

Phillip_Johnson · Sep 9, 2003

Jayna is his sister and as far as I know actually runs the business side of CC.

BryanSimmons · Sep 9, 2003

Originally posted by Phillip Johnson:
Jayna is his sister and as far as I know actually runs the business side of CC.

Wow, I did not know that (in my best Johnny Carson voice

). Guess both "a" and "b" could be the case. I swear I thought someone told me Jayna was his wife, oh well, such is the way of gossip.

Jayna_cloudcity_com · Sep 9, 2003

Hi! I wanted to introduce myself since I have been reading these forums for so long without posting. Since this post has been referring to me personally, I decided that now would be a good time to introduce myself. This is Jayna Derby, Tom's SISTER (not wife...gross). I've been working at Cloud City for almost 2 years now (since my graduation from college) and I've been Cloud City's CEO and COO for over a year while Tom has focused more time on our family's computer business. I read in a post above that Tom Derby is Cloud City, but we have over a dozen full-time employees that enjoy Star Wars and all contribute to the Cloud City operations. While we appreciate Tom's Star Wars knowledge as a valuable resource, virtually all of the day to day operations are performed without Tom's direction. We'd like to think we have something to do with Cloud City's success as well.

I enjoy reading these forums and will try to participate more often in the future. The Star Wars community is very important to Cloud City and, as CEO, I try to do all I can to make sure Cloud City upholds the highest level of integrity. Thanks to everyone!

-Jayna

P.S. To put to rest your next obvious question...I don't own any stock in Cloud City.

BryanSimmons · Sep 9, 2003

Originally posted by Jayna@cloudcity.com:
This is Jayna Derby, Tom's SISTER (not wife...gross).

I actually laughed out loud at that "gross" comment, what a sisterly thing to say!

Guest · Sep 9, 2003

Originally posted by Jayna@cloudcity.com:
Hi! I wanted to introduce myself since I have been reading these forums for so long without posting. Since this post has been referring to me personally, I decided that now would be a good time to introduce myself. This is Jayna Derby, Tom's SISTER (not wife...gross). I've been working at Cloud City for almost 2 years now (since my graduation from college) and I've been Cloud City's CEO and COO for over a year while Tom has focused more time on our family's computer business. I read in a post above that Tom Derby is Cloud City, but we have over a dozen full-time employees that enjoy Star Wars and all contribute to the Cloud City operations. While we appreciate Tom's Star Wars knowledge as a valuable resource, virtually all of the day to day operations are performed without Tom's direction. We'd like to think we have something to do with Cloud City's success as well.

I enjoy reading these forums and will try to participate more often in the future. The Star Wars community is very important to Cloud City and, as CEO, I try to do all I can to make sure Cloud City upholds the highest level of integrity. Thanks to everyone!

-Jayna

P.S. To put to rest your next obvious question...I don't own any stock in Cloud City.

Jayna, thanks for posting this information firsthand. In our hobby though Tom Derby = Cloud City. That is the perception and that is the person that most people here have dealt with the past 6 years or so. If Tom has no stake in CC other than advisor then I really see no conflict of interest.

Dan

AFA/Cloud City question

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