AFA/Cloud City question

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I am not trying to start anything. I just heard some talk on the street and I hadn't heard it mentioned in the many AFA threads in this forum.

Is Tom Derby a part owner in AFA?

This came from a legitimate person and isn't idle street gossip. I am just trying to verify it.

thanks.

[ 09-08-2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: dockingbay97 ]
 
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Is this true? I thought that they were third party graders only and wouldn't buy or sell anything they graded.
 
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I too have heard this, actually over in the Archive chat one night a long time ago. It surprised me that so few people seemed to care. At the time I remember feeling like there was some kind of conflict of interest, but it's really a gray area. Oh well, I don't buy AFA crap anyway
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That is exactly why I was curious.

I have no proof that this rumor is true just that it came from a good source.

If it is false, I apologize for bringing it up.

If it is true, owning part of a grading company when you sell graded toys would seem a little odd.
 
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If someone (whoever that person was) owned a part (even a tiny percentage) in a grading company, wouldn't it bring into question the grades of figures that person sells.

I hope this is not true.
 
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Originally posted by dockingbay97:
If someone (whoever that person was) owned a part (even a tiny percentage) in a grading company, wouldn't it bring into question the grades of figures that person sells.

I hope this is not true.
<font size="2" face="arial">Ask to Plastic Dreams what they think about that ...
 
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I have also heard something to this affect, although what I was told was that Cloud City actually own AFA, rather than that Tom was just a part owner. Not sure how true this is, just repeating what I heard.

Cheers,
Andy.
 

iHu

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Originally posted by Olivier Desaive aka Colpar:
They have their own service of figures grading and appraisals :

http://plasticdreams.com/appraisal.htm

very easy to sell "high grade" figures for them.
<font size="2" face="arial">This could very easily be perceived as something that might cancel out their impartiality, putting the service somewhat into question, IMO, and I hope Cloud City is not "in business" or materially "a part of" AFA as mentioned/rumored here....

I mean WTF, anybody ever heard of CONSUMER REPORTS? Same principle: you don't get involved in the selling of the specific product your supposedly grading/rating as a "consumer service."
Shouldn't that have been obvious to C. City/P. Dreams???
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That is the scarry thing about the **Importance** of production items having a large element of what there worth is devoted to what condition there in. Rarity is a factor , but for the most part its the condition that its in that will dictate what price the piece will sell for + how quickly the piece will sell(higher grade faster sell/turn around time).

As for the whole AFA , Cloudcity thing..... I do not want to speculate here. I do know that Cloudcity in the last 1-2 years has given AFA alot of business, and visa-vera with Cloudcity puting AFA graded figures on Ebay to sell for big bucks $$ !
 
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Hello Everyone. I certainly understand the questions in this post and if the objective of this post is to confirm the unbiased, third-party nature of AFA, then that is a fair objective. Therefore, I will treat this question as such and go on to state that I have absolutely no influence over the way figures are graded at AFA, whether they are submitted by Cloud City (itself an independent corporation) or any other entity. AFA is a third party corporation and no client gets any treatment more special than better prices and turnaround times. I will also go on to say that AFA is a privately held corporation which is free to offer shares of stock to anyone who has the money and desire to purchase them. Anyone on these boards is certainly free to contact AFA and inquire about purchasing shares in their company. Whether or not I, Tom Derby, own any shares of stock in AFA is personal information. I feel that this is the same as asking me to post a list of what stocks I hold in investment accounts here for public viewing. If I did own shares of stock in AFA and Cloud City had figures graded, it would be about as much of a conflict of interest as me owning shares of stock in IBM and Cloud City buying an IBM laptop computer. I know this answer may not satisfy a few people on these boards, but I feel that I have answered the questions which the public has a right to know. I don’t believe information has ever been shared with the public about private ownership in Cloud City either. This is quite simply not a matter of public concern. A similar thread was posted on the SLU.net forums not too long ago and Isaac's answer remains accurate. Maybe some will feel that this offers further insight into the AFA - Cloud City relationship. The link is below:

http://www.slu.net/cgi-local/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000023

If anyone here has any further questions or concerns about the integrity or third party nature of AFA, then you should email them directly at info@toygrader.com

Hope this helps

Thanks

Tom
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iHu

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I am glad to hear Tom Derby immediately writing to explain your side of this topic. That suffices for me, as long as you have nothing to do with AFA and its grading processes/outcomes. I am a Cloud City customer (probably got about 20% of my carded collection from CC) and so business integrity is absolutely key to me. AFA MUST work ina vaccuum or it's ruined.

As for Plastic Dreams/AFG, however - that's a little too close for comfort, IMO, considering only what I've read at this point. Their link to profit motive is in place with their self-styled AFA, b/c the "third-party" grading system seems very clearly linked to the retail end of PD. WHups? Please chime in, thanks....
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iHu
 
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I do believe that Tom is trying to say that if(and he might) own interest in AFA that by no means would that influence the grading that AFA would give to anything that Cloud City might have graded. I know as someone who sits on a board that even privately held companies can have 2 seprate agenda's which dont affect the thinkin or actions of each other, which have members,partners and or stock holders for both companies. While it makes sense to use each other and keep money in the family(so to speak,) smart business owners know better then to risk the reputation of 2 highly succesful companies by making certain concessions by over grading on certain items.And I believe Tom Derby is a smart man.
-Todd-
 
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If I did own shares of stock in AFA and Cloud City had figures graded, it would be about as much of a conflict of interest as me owning shares of stock in IBM and Cloud City buying an IBM laptop computer.
<font size="2" face="arial">Tom:

Whether you will believe this or not, and whether you care or not, I have nothing but respect for you and your operation, and what I'm about to say is by no means intended as an attempt to impugn your widely-regarded integrity. I also don't think that your potentially having a minority ownership interest in AFA would necessarily create a worrysome conflict of interest, because as both a partial owner and a primary customer whose revenues are impacted by AFA to a seemingly increasing extent, you would have every incentive to avoid doing anything that could jeopardize the public perception of the integrity of AFA's grading process.

That said, your analogy, which I have quoted above, is really pretty specious. You are equating ownership in and lone stockholder influence over a huge, multinational, publicly-held corporation (IBM) with ownership in and influence over a private/closely-held, rather small operation (AFA). This is really an inapt comparison. In most closely-held corporations, lone stockholders can theoretically exert a level of influence over company operations that simply can't be had in large public companies. Moreover, I doubt even the largest shareholders of a company like IBM are major customers of IBM, whereas I'm betting CC is AFA's largest annual customer (or at least one of the largest two or three). Also, buying an IBM computer as a shareholder of IBM is not the same as CC purchasing AFA's grading services, unless the IBM buyer/shareholder is in the business of reselling those computers, as CC is in the business of reselling products run through the AFA grading process.

I understand why people are asking these questions, but I also understand why you're reluctant to confirm that information publicly. Rightly or wrongly, I gather from your post that you are, in fact, an AFA shareholder, or you likely would have just denied that. Personally, I don't really care either way, but I understand why this might have at least the appearance of a conflict of interest to some. I think most people in the hobby will gloss over this b/c of the high regard in which you are generally held--in other words, most people will be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt b/c they fundamentally trust you and like you. I guess I'm in that camp as well.

But I dare observe that if another major dealer was in such a position (other than, perhaps, Kathy at The Earth), he or she would likely get skewered in the court of hobby opinion. (Can anyone imagine what would be said if this were Semling, instead of Tom?)

In any event, I don't think your analogy holds water. Beyond that, I can appreciate your perspective on the matter.

Chad

[ 09-08-2003, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: The Twisted Sithster ]
 

iHu

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Originally posted by The Twisted Sithster:
I think most people in the hobby will gloss over this b/c of the high regard in which you are generally held--in other words, most people will be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt b/c they fundamentally trust you and like you. I guess I'm in that camp as well. But I dare observe that if another major dealer was in such a position, they'd likely get skewered in the court of hobby opinion.
<font size="2" face="arial">I 2nd this -- *exactly* the reason I acquiesce on this topic. Rep means everything in vintage SW and I believe CC is very aware not to dillute a sterling reputation among its discerning hobbyists (not to mention we're obviously whip smart + slightly paranoid
wink.gif
).

iHu
 
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This question was discussed much about a year ago because Scott left Cloud City to go and run AFA, taking over from the original owner Chip. So people thought "a Cloud City guy running AFA? Cloud City must've bought them". But it was simply a matter of a former Cloud City employee taking a position in a different company. That said, it could certainly be perceived a certain way that one of Tom's former employees was/is running a company that Tom does much business with and gains a lot of revenue from. However, if there was funny business going on, you'd expect to see Tom selling nothing but AFA 90's and 95's, which he is not.

That was the situation as far as I remember, I don't know what's transpired since.
 
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Originally posted by The Twisted Sithster:


But I dare observe that if another major dealer was in such a position (other than, perhaps, Kathy at The Earth), he or she would likely get skewered in the court of hobby opinion. (Can anyone imagine what would be said if this were Semling, instead of Tom?)


Chad [/QB]
<font size="2" face="arial">I would agree to a certain extent, but if Brians Toys was an owner/shareholder in AFA I think I would feel the sme as if Tom does. Granted there are not many shops or dealers that could pull this off, but there are some that have earned enough respect by not trying to screw people or lie to them that they should get that same benefit of doubt as CC would.
 
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Hypothetically speaking of course, wouldn't the real determining factor be the percentage of shares held (i.e. ownership)? In other words, would it not be a greater potential for a conflict of interest if he held a 51% share vs. something like a 5% share? Just wondering. For the record, I believe Tom has no influence whatsoever over the grades CC or anyone else receives from AFA.
 
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Hypothetically speaking of course, wouldn't the real determining factor be the percentage of shares held (i.e. ownership)? In other words, would it not be a greater potential for a conflict of interest if he held a 51% share vs. something like a 5% share? Just wondering. For the record, I believe Tom has no influence whatsoever over the grades CC or anyone else receives from AFA.
<font size="2" face="arial">First off, Bill, I agree with you on the "actual influence" issue. But to address your hypo question: While I think it is true that in some closed (private) corporations, minority shareholders may not exert much operational influence (especially if they don't hold officer positions), theoretically, the internal dynamics could be different if a minority shareholder was also a very large patron of the business in question. In fact, I think being a sizeable customer, especially of a business that may not yet be "off the ground" entirely, could wield one far more influence than having a minority ownership interest in a company.

Again, though, I am speaking hypothetically only. I certainly have no basis to question Tom's or the CC's staff's integrity, and whether Tom does or doesn't actually own any part of AFA, I'm confident there's nothing amiss going on. Like Matt observed, you don't see CC getting suspiciously high grades on stuff (at least I've not heard that allegation levied).

Chad

[ 09-08-2003, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: The Twisted Sithster ]
 
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I personally think that this is a great example of capitalism at work. Since both are separate entities and there is no apparent influence, wouldn't this be the same situation as a "spin-off"? On a much larger scale, when Pepsico spun off the resturant segment of its business and created YUM, which owned/operated Pizza Hut, Kentucky Fried Chicken and Taco Bell, the three resturants served (and still do) Pepsi products. I am sure there is a revenue and expense allocation to the subsidiary, but there are an entirely different set of investors and board of directors running the show at both corporations. Unless AFA is under the umbrella of Cloud City, (much like the toycases.com and the LOTR segments) and they have the controlling voice (and Tom was sitting there casing and labeling the figures himself), I don't see how there would or could be a conflict of interest.
 
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Well, I was suspicious of this when AFA moved from Michigan? to Atlanta. The analogy Tom uses of IBM is laughable. AFA is not a publicly traded stock, it is a privately owned company that is apparently partly owned by Tom Derby, and run by a former employee of Cloud City. I know that Cloud City's reputation is sterling in this hobby, and I am not accusing them of anything, but just the appearance of a conflict should have been enough for Tom Derby to not buy interest in AFA. I wonder if Tom was part owner of AFa when he made these comments:

"I would personally welcome AFA grading of loose figures. It is very difficult for me as a dealer to give a detailed description of lower priced items like loose figures and there are countless people looking for perfect or near perfect figures and endless variations. I think grading would save a good deal of time and money. Money would be saved because extremely condition sensitive collectors end up selling and upgrading each figure multiple times and loosing money. As far as casing the figure and not being able to touch it; this would be the decision of the new owner whether to leave it in the case. I have always wanted acrylic cases which help the figure stand for my loose figures but have never found anything which really looks perfect. What about different size acrylic cases with a clear acrylic piece in the middle which would come up between the figures legs and help it stand straight. The weapon could be suspended in an acrylic pocket on the side of the case next to the figure. This would offer clear acrylic on all sides and a great view of every detail. What does everyone else think?

Tom"

You forgot to mention that it would also make your AFA stock more valuable.

Dan
 

iHu

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Ultimately the vintage SW community would easily suss out and call "BS" on any misgrading or grade inlflation, considering how many AFA pieces generally fall into our hands (some of whom are total experts); you'd just be asking for trouble to mess with that.

I've personally seen *maybe*, rarely, a slight wee bit of grade inflation hee and there with the new 3-point grading system, but by and large I believe AFA holds the line on grading integrity despite Tom Derby's (alleged) ownership deal with the company.

And yeah you're right (Chad too), it ain't like IBM at all, innit?
wink.gif

iHu
 
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On the SLU board Isaac stated:

"1) There is no person who is both an owner of AFA and an owner of Cloud City. Each is owned by separate people."

Unless someone has a reason to doubt Isaac's integrity, which I certainly don't, what's the problem?

Anything beyond this is pure hyperbole.

Justin
 
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Originally posted by kerns:
On the SLU board Isaac stated:

"1) There is no person who is both an owner of AFA and an owner of Cloud City. Each is owned by separate people."

Unless someone has a reason to doubt Isaac's integrity, which I certainly don't, what's the problem?

Anything beyond this is pure hyperbole.

Justin
<font size="2" face="arial">It seems to me that Tom didn't say whether he did or did not own any part of AFA, declining to answer to keep his investments private. While I respect that if I was asked and I didn't own any part of it, I would have answered with a simple "No." Because he did answer the question without really answering it, it appears he must own some part of AFA however small.

Also that statement could be true if Tom is an owner of CC and CC is a part owner of AFA. In that scenario there are two different entities owning the pieces and Issac's statement is true. It is just an example, not an allegation.

I don't know Isaac so I can make no judgement of him based on his claim.

I think there is no doubt we all agree CC sells top notch stuff. I brought the subject up because if people are talking amongst themselves on the street off the boards about this. It reflects negatively on CC even if it is a tiny hit to them. The next time someone has any doubt on a CC item, this issue could be brought into play. I thought this could be a chance to clear the air.

Because CC is so top notch, Tom is really being spared the wrath of the hobby that would have been wielded if another retailer was suspected in owning part of AFA.

If we are going to use analogies, this would be like GM owning part of Comsumer Reports. Where as a lot of people respect GM cars there were always be a little bit of doubt/wondering about reviews of GM vehicles in Comsumer Reports and whether there was any bias. It is only natural.

And as for the arguement of CC not always selling high graded items. If a company was doing this in collusion with a grading company, selling all 95's would just make it that more obvious.

I have bought a few things from CC in the past and have no trouble with those items. I have no issues with anything CC sells. All I am trying to point out is it looks a bit hinky if proven true.
 
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Originally posted by kerns:
On the SLU board Isaac stated:

"1) There is no person who is both an owner of AFA and an owner of Cloud City. Each is owned by separate people."

Unless someone has a reason to doubt Isaac's integrity, which I certainly don't, what's the problem?

Anything beyond this is pure hyperbole.

Justin
<font size="2" face="arial">The answer that Isaac gave seems a little slippery to me, but there is no evidence of favortism or other dirty deeds. I still think it's a major conflict of interest though and one that should have been avoided by Cloud City. I agree with what had been said earlier: If this had been any other dealer the outcry would be deafening.

Dan
 
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Originally posted by kerns:
On the SLU board Isaac stated:

"1) There is no person who is both an owner of AFA and an owner of Cloud City. Each is owned by separate people."

Unless someone has a reason to doubt Isaac's integrity, which I certainly don't, what's the problem?

Anything beyond this is pure hyperbole.

Justin
<font size="2" face="arial">Maybe so, but as I said earlier it was brought up to me in a chat room and supposedly confirmed by a few collectors. Well, maybe not so much as confirmed but not denied (if I remember correctly one collector answered in the affirmative and everyone else stayed mum). Anyway, perception is reality and the perception is that there is some type of ownership between Cloud City and AFA. Although Tom's private business dealings are certainly his own, not denying it does nothing to reduce the general perception.

It honestly doesn't bother me a bit as I stay away from professional grading services, however I can see how this sort of thing can cause concern within the community. The Consumer Reports analogy was spot on, I think.

[ 09-08-2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Darthbryan ]
 
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I agree that the syntax of the cited explanation and the general failure/refusal to categorically deny any link are "interesting" to a degree. Again, I have nothing against Tom at all, nor do I personally have any axe to grind against AFA. Moreover, I really like Isaac, and think him to be a thoroughly honest person and all-around great member of the hobby. However, this whole thing has gotten me a bit curious. Perhaps what is truly private is not any of our business (though I think some sort of formal link between Tom and/or Cloud City and AFA, if it actually existed, is something that people in the hobby have a right to inquire about to some degree). However, sometimes things like this may be a matter of public record.

I decided to do a little digging online to see if there were any public corporate records regarding AFA available online through the Georgia Secretary of State's website. Some state Secretary of State offices have corporate filings available free online. As it turns out, Georgia makes you pay a fee to get them. I'm not inclined to do that, but I figured I'd post the link here in case anyone else is personally so inclined. (If you want to see the available records pertaining to AFA, you just need to type "action figure authority" in the "Search" box.)

I'm not sure that any of these documents would necessarily list AFA's shareholders (current or otherwise), so I make no guarantees that any of them, if purchased, would necessarily answer the question at hand one way or another.

Chad

[ 09-08-2003, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: The Twisted Sithster ]
 
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Originally posted by The Twisted Sithster:
I agree that the syntax of the cited explanation and the general failure/refusal to categorically deny any link are "interesting" to a degree. Again, I have nothing against Tom at all, nor do I personally have any axe to grind against AFA. Moreover, I really like Isaac, and think him to be a thoroughly honest person and all-around great member of the hobby. However, this whole thing has gotten me a bit curious. Perhaps what is truly private is not any of our business (though I think some sort of formal link between Tom and/or Cloud City and AFA, if it actually existed, is something that people in the hobby have a right to inquire about to some degree). However, sometimes things like this may be a matter of public record.

I decided to do a little digging online to see if there were any public corporate records regarding AFA available online through the Georgia Secretary of State's website. Some state Secretary of State offices have corporate filings available free online. As it turns out, Georgia makes you pay a fee to get them. I'm not inclined to do that, but I figured I'd post the link here in case anyone else is personally so inclined. (If you want to see the available records pertaining to AFA, you just need to type "action figure authority" in the "Search" box.)

I'm not sure that any of these documents would necessarily list AFA's shareholders (current or otherwise), so I make no guarantees that any of them, if purchased, would necessarily answer the question at hand one way or another.

Chad
<font size="2" face="arial">Well, I don't think anyone needs to dig that deep, but I really think Tom should tell us the whole story because this is a serious breach of trust in my mind. I know that our hobby of toy collecting is looked at by the rest of the world as just that - toy collecting, but it is important to us though and in the "more serious" hobby of coin collecting these same kind of conflicts of interest have had serious repercussions on the hobby. Bryan said earlier that perception is reality and that could lead to disaster for cloud city.

Dan
 
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Hello Everyone. Although I don't plan to address questions about my personal financial status or personal holdings because I don't believe it is a public topic, I will address a few other questions and concerns listed in the posts above.

Regarding the workaround assumption posted by dockingbay97 that suggests Cloud City owns a part of AFA: I can assure you that Cloud City does not own any fraction of any percent of AFA. This would be a major conflict of interest and is simply not the case. This topic has been addressed in the past. The 2 companies are separate and neither one owns any portion of the other. I believe this is a clear and concise answer which should put to bed part of this debate.

Furthermore I will go on to say that although an ex-employee of Cloud City did participate in helping Chip move AFA from Michigan to Georgia, he no longer is employed by either company and was never an employee of both at the same time or at Cloud City after he left Cloud City for AFA. Each company’s employees are completely and totally independent of one another.

Cloud City has always adhered to the strictest rules of integrity. We have worked hard over the years to develop this reputation. I also feel that AFA adheres to strict rules of integrity. Neither Cloud City nor anyone else gets preferential treatment at AFA. A figure's grade rests entirely in the hands of unbiased graders employed only by AFA and is based solely on the characteristics of each figure.

Regarding Chad’s last comments about the Georgia Secretary of State’s records, I have even addressed this topic in the past. I am friends with Chip Ware (AFA’s founder) and helped him with much of the paperwork in bringing AFA to Georgia. At the beginning I even helped him and Scott (the then CEO) file the paperwork. There were problems in the beginning with moving the company and Chip being from out of state, but since that time, I believe all present records have been corrected to display the correct information about AFA. Also Chad, Georgia does not make you pay to view all records. A link to AFA’s current filing status is here:

http://www.ganet.org/cgi-bin/pub/corp/corpsearch?corpid=0248075

A link to Cloud City’s current filing status is here:

http://www.ganet.org/cgi-bin/pub/corp/corpsearch?corpid=K818298

I would suggest that people go and read the link to the SLU.net forums I posted above. Isaac’s comments are completely true as noted by kerns above.

And finally, I will address a few other posts in this thread. For Chad and all the people who have said kind things and are not sure whether I care or not, the answer is that I certainly do care and appreciate all those things being said.

Thank You for reading
smile.gif


[ 09-08-2003, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Tom@CloudCity.Com ]
 
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Also Chad, Georgia does not make you pay to view all records. A link to AFA’s current filing status is here:

http://www.ganet.org/cgi-bin/pub/corp/corpsearch?corpid=0248075

A link to Cloud City’s current filing status is here:

http://www.ganet.org/cgi-bin/pub/corp/corpsearch?corpid=K818298
<font size="2" face="arial">Fair correction, Tom. I actually found the "free" filing status records for AFA (and the ones for Cloud City), but they only identify current registration status, registered agent, and provide a link to view each company's officers. In other words, they don't identify potential owners/shareholders. But I should have been more precise in saying "no records" are available for free from the GA Sec. of State site.

As for the substantance of your post, I appreciate you taking the time to clarify the matter to that extent, and am personally certainly inclined to take you at your word (which anyone who has dealt with you knows is worth a great deal). Sorry if I was unduly skeptical.

Chad
 
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So, how do I go about buying shares of AFA and Cloudcity...
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Ed
 
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Not to harp on CC, but this thread is very interesting

If in fact there is some duel ownership going on it does bring a lot of questions that many of us had in the past. It also answer many issues I have heard from other collectors about grading figures.

First this is all hypothetical, so don't think I am pointing fingers or accusing CC of anything. I am just contributing to the discussion.

In the collecting comuniting grading figures is really based on a person or a companies interpretation. There has been many threads in the past on the inconsitancies of AFA grading. Now we all know that an AFA85 gets more than an AFA80 and an AFA90 gets much more than an AFA85. Many indivduals have always questions how certain things grade higher than others when they should have graded lower.

(now if you can follow everything I pointed out above). If you are a partial owner/investor of this company it would be quite easy, even unwillingly to admit, but if something was borderline in grading it would tend to reason that it would get the higer grade. Thus the higher grade would provide more selling power and more money.

I have also heard from many collectors that are selling high quality items that they always say the same thing. If you are looking for the most out of a high quality items they suggest having it brokered with CC. They say CC will get it graded and they also have the name and contacts for getting the most out the item

Remeber these are just thoughts and I am trying to point out the obvious. Personally I have no problems with CC and who they are.

So until the grading of AFA becomes as close to an accurate science as possible and the inconsistancies many of us have seen in the past. This type of duel ownership (if it exists) would always cause people to be skeptical of the credibility of the grade.
 
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Originally posted by Tom@CloudCity.Com:

Regarding the workaround assumption posted by dockingbay97 that suggests Cloud City owns a part of AFA: I can assure you that Cloud City does not own any fraction of any percent of AFA. This would be a major conflict of interest and is simply not the case. This topic has been addressed in the past. The 2 companies are separate and neither one owns any portion of the other. I believe this is a clear and concise answer which should put to bed part of this debate.
<font size="2" face="arial">Tom, I am glad you came right out and said it. As I said earlier, the perception I got was that CC and AFA were financially connected somewhat, and I know this assumption was shared by a few others. Perhaps, as you say, this will be "put to bed" now.
 
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Originally posted by Tom@CloudCity.Com:

Furthermore I will go on to say that although an ex-employee of Cloud City did participate in helping Chip move AFA from Michigan to Cloud City, he no longer is employed by either company and was never an employee of both at the same time or at Cloud City after he left Cloud City for AFA. Each company’s employees are completely and totally independent of one another.

<font size="2" face="arial">Tom, are you saying that AFA and Cloud City are located on the same premises?

Dan
 
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Just to add one more thing to my thread. When I refer to duel ownership, I don' mean CC owning AFA. I am really just say if some or one of the Owners/Share holders has stock or interest in the other.
 
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Originally posted by kerns:
On the SLU board Isaac stated:

"1) There is no person who is both an owner of AFA and an owner of Cloud City. Each is owned by separate people."

Unless someone has a reason to doubt Isaac's integrity, which I certainly don't, what's the problem?

Anything beyond this is pure hyperbole.

Justin
<font size="2" face="arial">I believe the question above was addressed here.

Tom
 
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I have answered many questions here. I am going to bed and I must end my participation in this thread. I appreciate everyone's opinion. Any further questions or concerns can be addressed to me via email.

Thanks

Tom
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