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Thread: The Darth Maul Problem...

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by King_Goji View Post
    Yeah but it is the same guy that gave Boba Fett a very unceremoniously lame death as well. So the Darth Maul thing seems pretty much in-line with the way Lucas did things. Same could be said for Jango.

    If Lucas hadn't already decided that Vader was kind of the "hidden main character" of the overall story, I'm sure he would've died in the trench.
    That's the thing about Fett - it wasn't the fact that he died that people took issue with, it is HOW he died, ironically killed by Han by accident, instead of the grand shootout, showing that ONLY Han Solo was capable of taking down THE baddest Bounty Hunter in the galaxy - THAT is how most fans wanted to see Han get his retribution.


    In Maul's case, it wasn't even his look that made him so popular, but the second he lit the double-blade in the teaser trailer, people were talking. THAT was something we had never seen in the OT, and it made his character that much cooler, made people want to see him fight. I didn't like how little screen time he got, but it's understandable when you realize it's to show just how powerful Kenobi is and will become, to be able to defeat Maul. It also shows how powerful Dooku actually is, that he twice beats Obi-Wan with ease, that only Yoda and an experienced, more powerful Anakin are capable of defeating him.

    It is unfortunate that Lucas removed a very simple line from the movie that was in the novel, that where Dooku looks at Palpatine before Anakin beheads him and says "You promised me amnesty!" It not only would have made the evil calculations of Palpatine that much stronger to the audience, but would have planted a seed of doubt in Anakin about Palpatine, leading to their confrontation where he calls him out as a Sith Lord. Have Anakin doubt BOTH sides strongly before ultimately succumbing to the Dark Side, rather than only mistrusting the Jedi save for this brief moment when he pulls his saber on the future Emperor.
    Last edited by bob_solo; 07-22-2019 at 10:48 AM.

  2. #22
    I mean, at the end of the day, there's so many things that don't add up to me in the PT. For one, why exactly does it require force abilities to figure out who the Sith Lord is? Doesn't it just require common sense? You don't need some magical power to realize that the person benefiting most from this circumstance is Palpatine. Investigate him! It makes zero sense to me that he's ONLY looked into once the Sith Lord aspect comes out. Now I don't even mean this as a viewer, it's blatantly overt that Palpatine is Sidious, but I mean this actually within the context of the story as well. People honestly should have come to a natural conclusion that he should, at minimum, be investigated.

    Because of this, it vicariously makes a ton of characters look like complete and utter idiots. Now I know it's established by Mace and Yoda that, what does he say, "Our ability to use the force is diminishing," but again, it JUST takes a freaking BRAIN! This in turn makes Anakin look like the most naive and foolish moron in the history of the franchise. When viewing the OT, Vader never remotely feels like a mindless puppet. He seems very well aware that Palpatine is using him. But in ROTS, he's so braindead. The entire fall to the dark side scene is so baffling to me. He quite literally goes from "What have I done?" when assisting in Mace's death to "Yes, my master" in the span of about 5 seconds. You attempt to make him sympathetic, his motive being to save his wife and unborn children, but then you have him KILL children. If there's any way to make a character unsympathetic, that's it. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The fact he murders the younglings feels entirely out of character. It's an edgelord moment, a cheap shock jock move, "I want him to be DARK! HE'LL KILL KIDS!" It's cheap and completely something I believe the established character would not do! It contradicts the theme that he's sympathetic, identifiable, tragic, and eventually redeemed. I don't want to identify and pity a child killer! It would be so much more natural to show him killing the adults, but once he gets to the children...he can't go through with it. He leaves them to the clones. That way you establish that he has turned, that he's not puppeteered into hating the Jedi but sincerely does for his own personal reasons (feeling held back, distrusted, disrespected, and I'd have had him excommunicated from the order due to the council discovering his marriage...I.E: creating motive), and yet you still RETAIN his sympathetic and tragic character. I'd have built up a long-running resentment he has toward Mace, I'd have had Palpatine never ignite a lightsaber but rather have Anakin and Mace have an all out swordfight with Palpatine just watching, and I'd have had Anakin commit to killing Mace. That way, when he does accept the title of Vader...it feels organic. It doesn't feel like he's tricked into it, he WANTED it!
    Last edited by MysterioMaximus; 07-22-2019 at 06:52 PM.
    'But I don’t want to go among mad people,’ Alice remarked. ‘Oh, you can’t help that,’ said the Cat: ‘We’re all mad here. I’m mad, you’re mad.’ ‘How do you know I’m mad?’ said Alice. ‘You must be,’ said the Cat, ‘or you wouldn’t have come here.’ - Lewis Carroll 'Alice's Adventures in Wonderland'

  3. #23
    I’ve given the question of Maul’s purpose in the prequels a lot of thought actually. So great thread. To be honest, what I think Lucas was going for was the evolution of Palpatine and his apprentices. I think originally he believed he could train an apprentice at a young age and when that didn’t work, he went with an older, wiser, and more powerful apprentice. But, when that reached its logical conclusion he was able to replace Dooku with Anakin. And, his plan was to replace Darth Vader with Luke.

    So look at Maul as more of a pawn of Palpatine that was meant to take on the Jedi with his strength and power. He was always expendable in Palpatine’s scheme to bring down the Jedi order. Just as Dooku and Vader was as well.

  4. #24
    https://theentertainmentnut.wordpres...wars-prequels/

    I did a little post about the Sith Apprentices on my blog, and was analyzing Lucas' decision. If you look at the apprentices in all three films, from Maul to Tyrannus and even Grievous, they all form puzzle-pieces that lead to Vader.

    - Maul is the over-confident apprentice who feels his powers are perfect, much like Anakin...but their overconfidence is taken down by...Obi-Wan Kenobi!
    - Tyrannus was disillusioned by the Jedi, much like how Anakin became disillusioned with them.
    - Grievous was a pre-Vader, a creature saved from death and turned into an imposing figure of menace and evil.
    "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of oysters cried out in terror...and were suddenly silenced."

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by MysterioMaximus View Post
    I mean, at the end of the day, there's so many things that don't add up to me in the PT. For one, why exactly does it require force abilities to figure out who the Sith Lord is? Doesn't it just require common sense? You don't need some magical power to realize that the person benefiting most from this circumstance is Palpatine. Investigate him! It makes zero sense to me that he's ONLY looked into once the Sith Lord aspect comes out. Now I don't even mean this as a viewer, it's blatantly overt that Palpatine is Sidious, but I mean this actually within the context of the story as well. People honestly should have come to a natural conclusion that he should, at minimum, be investigated.

    Because of this, it vicariously makes a ton of characters look like complete and utter idiots. Now I know it's established by Mace and Yoda that, what does he say, "Our ability to use the force is diminishing," but again, it JUST takes a freaking BRAIN! This in turn makes Anakin look like the most naive and foolish moron in the history of the franchise. When viewing the OT, Vader never remotely feels like a mindless puppet. He seems very well aware that Palpatine is using him. But in ROTS, he's so braindead. The entire fall to the dark side scene is so baffling to me. He quite literally goes from "What have I done?" when assisting in Mace's death to "Yes, my master" in the span of about 5 seconds. You attempt to make him sympathetic, his motive being to save his wife and unborn children, but then you have him KILL children. If there's any way to make a character unsympathetic, that's it. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The fact he murders the younglings feels entirely out of character. It's an edgelord moment, a cheap shock jock move, "I want him to be DARK! HE'LL KILL KIDS!" It's cheap and completely something I believe the established character would not do! It contradicts the theme that he's sympathetic, identifiable, tragic, and eventually redeemed. I don't want to identify and pity a child killer! It would be so much more natural to show him killing the adults, but once he gets to the children...he can't go through with it. He leaves them to the clones. That way you establish that he has turned, that he's not puppeteered into hating the Jedi but sincerely does for his own personal reasons (feeling held back, distrusted, disrespected, and I'd have had him excommunicated from the order due to the council discovering his marriage...I.E: creating motive), and yet you still RETAIN his sympathetic and tragic character. I'd have built up a long-running resentment he has toward Mace, I'd have had Palpatine never ignite a lightsaber but rather have Anakin and Mace have an all out swordfight with Palpatine just watching, and I'd have had Anakin commit to killing Mace. That way, when he does accept the title of Vader...it feels organic. It doesn't feel like he's tricked into it, he WANTED it!
    I felt the reason for not making the connection, was that the Jedi had let their powers wane. They had grown complacent since the Sith had gone extinct. Plus, who would think that their evil enemy would become a politician? The Jedi were most likely looking for the enemy to come from the outside, not burst forth from within and stab them in the backs!

    As for Anakin's sudden turn the altercation with Mace, I felt he realized how much trouble he was in: he had helped in the killing of a Jedi Master. He knew he was in trouble, but Palpatine was offering him an out: become my apprentice, I will help you, AND, your wife.

    If one notices, Anakin doesn't admit to any what he has done. he just needs to keep telling himself that he's doing this because it'll get me what I want: power the Jedi kept from me, the power to keep Padme alive. Palpatine had him desperate enough to trust him, that Anakin would believe anything he said and requested...much like in our own real world.
    "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of oysters cried out in terror...and were suddenly silenced."

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