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Thread: The Darth Maul Problem...

  1. #11
    ^^^ Realistically, George likely only remembered Christopher because of his supreme performance in the LOTR trilogy (that would steal the thunder from his Prequel LOL).

    Like many components of TPM, Maul was brimming with potential— and may be one of the few characterizations that actually worked well, in his minimal appearance and even more minimal speaking parts. All the Sithy one-note replacements after Maul seemed to be a classic case of marketing-by-trend process: AS mentioned, Dooku was George realizing just how effective and effortless Christopher is as a villain because of his supreme performance in the LOTR. But his lack of writing and directing skills just couldn’t create an interesting character— even if it was Christopher performing it. George's initial casting of a female Sith would have been far far far superior— visually and narratively (even to the point of playing the seductress to an impressionable Anakin), and likely yielded more potential than Maul: Her concept art designs were stunning. However, that would mean George would have to make the effort to write and direct a new character. And George seemed to had become complacent by the time of AOTC (I always got the impression the backlash for TPM really hurt, and angered him. And he seemed so removed of any passion and heart afterwards): Everything about AOTC was desperately, mechanically pandering. AOTC doesn’t even look like it belonged in the same rich universe that TPM introduced. And by the time of ROTS, Grievous was a silly toy in a videogame of a movie.

    Maul was well-utiliazed in TPM. Less is more, and George was so confident and in his element that he made the audience want more of Maul. And rightfully didn’t give it to them. Selfish-George who didn’t give in to his fans, is my fav George: that’s the visionary maverick. It’s just too bad Maul is carelessly polluting everything post-TPM. He really should have remained dead.

    (I adore the design of Maul, and nothing has come close to his design with any new Sith: Timeless, primal, visceral, graphic, seductive, regal and such an elegant addition to the Sith design vocabulary of a more “civilized age” of AGFFA. TPM’s design is pure visionary and remains untouched 20 years later. If it’s true that the GOT duo is setting their trilogy at the era of The Old Republic, they'd be smart to keep the design aesthetic in the tone of TPM’s— just with more GOT-esque armoury. TPM’s was pure high design bliss.)
    Last edited by farmer; 03-30-2019 at 01:07 PM.

  2. #12
    Verrry interesting cobalt. The thing is if you combine them its merely a swap out instead of a search. But could make for better story telling.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by CellBlock1138 View Post
    I've always thought the prequels were incredibly dumb films, but I thought Darth Maul was a brilliant creation. He's probably the best thing about 'The Phantom Menace' and to kill him off showed a real lack of understanding from George Lucas, who once had the wherewithal to keep Darth Vader (another henchman) intact at the end of his 1977 film, even though he thought the chances of a sequel to 'Star Wars' were slim enough.
    Yeah but it is the same guy that gave Boba Fett a very unceremoniously lame death as well. So the Darth Maul thing seems pretty much in-line with the way Lucas did things. Same could be said for Jango.

    If Lucas hadn't already decided that Vader was kind of the "hidden main character" of the overall story, I'm sure he would've died in the trench.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by King_Goji View Post
    Yeah but it is the same guy that gave Boba Fett a very unceremoniously lame death as well. So the Darth Maul thing seems pretty much in-line with the way Lucas did things. Same could be said for Jango.
    But Boba Fett was only ever a side character. He was never supposed to be anything more than just some bloke that Vader hired. It was fandom, alone, that turned Fett into the, to be honest, silly nonsense we get today.

    You could say that Maul was only a side character, but he was the only real antagonist in TPM. Palpatine was in the background and still being portrayed as an honest merchant. He was still in the background for AOTC, which is why Dooku had to be created. But with the knowledge that Lucas had attained with the Fett situation in the 80's, you'd think he'd have been more aware in 1999 and not made the same "mistake" he did with Boba. although, I don't think there was any actual mistake made. Boba Fett died. People need to get over it. Personally, I've never had any issue with the way he died or that he died. He's just some bad guy in fancy suit of armour.

    Plus, Fett died in ROTJ because that was the end of the trilogy. There wasn't gong to be any more adventures in that period and keeping him alive just would have looked weird, especially when Vader and the Emperor were dead. He just would have been a loose end to most of the audience. In any case, by 1983, Lucas had desired to return to an earlier period if another set of Star Wars films were ever to be made. So Fett was surplus to requirements. TPM was the start of a new trilogy and one that was actually PLANNED as a trilogy, so in this instance killing off such an obviously great bad guy was a terrible idea.

    It was an incredible lack of foresight on behalf of Lucas.

    Quote Originally Posted by King_Goji View Post
    If Lucas hadn't already decided that Vader was kind of the "hidden main character" of the overall story, I'm sure he would've died in the trench.
    He hadn't decided that in 1977. In fact, he was nowhere near to such an idea.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by King_Goji View Post
    Yeah but it is the same guy that gave Boba Fett a very unceremoniously lame death as well. So the Darth Maul thing seems pretty much in-line with the way Lucas did things. Same could be said for Jango.

    If Lucas hadn't already decided that Vader was kind of the "hidden main character" of the overall story, I'm sure he would've died in the trench.
    Like Cellblock said, I don't really think Boba can be applied here. Boba was clearly a subsidiary character and while ultimately Maul was too, I think we're arguing that Maul shouldn't have been. While Boba being relegated to a fairly minor role makes sense, Maul just sort of doesn't. At least not to me. He was THE immediate villain. I think a better comparison would be if Lucas killed Vader at the end of ANH but STILL kept going with the films.
    'But I don’t want to go among mad people,’ Alice remarked. ‘Oh, you can’t help that,’ said the Cat: ‘We’re all mad here. I’m mad, you’re mad.’ ‘How do you know I’m mad?’ said Alice. ‘You must be,’ said the Cat, ‘or you wouldn’t have come here.’ - Lewis Carroll 'Alice's Adventures in Wonderland'

  6. #16
    Hello!
    I fully agree with your point of view!
    I think that Darth Maul was just the benchmark for the bad guy in the film. Even his appearance - sharp horns, aggressive black - red tattoo, style of fighting with double light saber. Everything seemed to tell us in his appearance - I am a villain and I want to kill you. But hell, even his small appearance made him one of the most colorful characters! It is a pity that he was so badly revealed - this is one of the most potential characters in the universe in my opinion

  7. #17
    maul was introduced as the direct apprentice to the Emperor.
    one of only 2 sith in the universe. he was standing in Vader's shoes.
    this makes him MORE than a casual side character.

    on the other hand, the story required palpatine to seek out a new apprentice at some point,
    otherwise Vader would never have happened.

    so Maul's days were numbered, by design -- he was written to die.
    his death was part of his dramatic purpose.
    "Is there anyone on this ship, who even remotely, looks like Satan?" -- James Kirk, U.S.S. Enterprise.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobalt60 View Post
    maul was introduced as the direct apprentice to the Emperor.
    one of only 2 sith in the universe. he was standing in Vader's shoes.
    this makes him MORE than a casual side character.

    on the other hand, the story required palpatine to seek out a new apprentice at some point,
    otherwise Vader would never have happened.

    so Maul's days were numbered, by design -- he was written to die.
    his death was part of his dramatic purpose.
    See I'll have to respectfully disagree with him being more that a side character. He's important to lore, true, but lore and actual narrative relevance to the immediate plot are different things. I'm not sure of the literal screen time, but I'd have to guess it's around ten minutes, tops, and that might be being generous. He has, what, three lines? I believe two of which are just "Yes, my master." He kills Qui Gon, that's his only contribution, which I always agreed with RedLetterMedia in that Qui Gon is a character that didn't need to exist to begin with. But yes, it's important to Sith lore and Palpatine's plan, but that is not immediately relevant to the actual plot of the film. So I stand by my comment that he's a subsidiary character in the film.

    But I do agree that, obviously, he had to die eventually. But I do think it speaks volumes toward my argument that he was brought back. Despite the absurdity to which he was returned, the fact that he did make a return is basically a self-confession from Lucasfilm that yes, he was wasted in the film. My issue is by no means that he died. My issue is WHERE he died. Technically speaking...you don't even need Dooku. It's superfluous, he isn't required if you don't kill Maul in TPM. I always argued that one quality character you sincerely get to know is vastly superior to two or three minor characters that you make an expendable waste before you ever really learn much about. Now sure, EU has elaborated upon the backstories and personalities of Maul, Dooku, Jango, and Grievous. None of these roles are particularly well done, the only reason they're remembered is because of superficial reasons. Even I can admit, they look cool or can do cool things. That's about all they have to offer to the plot. You can literally cut these four down to two...maybe even one...through the entire prequel trilogy. It's almost funny when you realize that Dooku serves the same narrative purpose as Grievous, separatist leader, and Maul served the same narrative purpose as Dooku, Sith pawn. It's overly complex for no reason other than, well, really likely marketing reasons. Giant four armed cyborgs with four lightsabers sell toys! Just combine them all into Maul and have him act as that role for all three films to eventually be usurped by Anakin/Vader.
    Last edited by MysterioMaximus; 07-20-2019 at 08:26 PM.
    'But I don’t want to go among mad people,’ Alice remarked. ‘Oh, you can’t help that,’ said the Cat: ‘We’re all mad here. I’m mad, you’re mad.’ ‘How do you know I’m mad?’ said Alice. ‘You must be,’ said the Cat, ‘or you wouldn’t have come here.’ - Lewis Carroll 'Alice's Adventures in Wonderland'

  9. #19
    In your proposed scenario, a surviving Maul could be the template for the Grand Army (considering that's really all Jango adds to the overall plot) All cloned Republic/Imperial soldiers would've canonically been Zabrak, which actually sounds rather bad-***.
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  10. #20
    ^^^ That sounds so godawful LOL

    TPM and Maul worked well for me because there was such a thoughtful restraint. Post-TPM, it was everything and anything goes :sigh:

    I get that EU/comics/videogames is the ideal domain for everything/anything goes cheese and camp; I suppose that’s why so many love it… It’s where all their childhood make-believes are realized with absolutely no restraint nor any sense of nuance. It’s like people that think Vader vs the rebels is the best part of RO. RO is my fav SW, and that scene, along wth the Leia-cameo, is the worst part of the movie: The movie ends with the waves crashing over Cassian and Jyn, as far as I’m concerned. Just like I can wave off the majority of SW— EU/comics/videogames/AOTC/ROTS/Sequel/Solo as non-essential, non-canon to my SW enjoyment, I can easily wave off the silly resurrection of Maul, because his death at the end of TPM was that perfect execution of confidence from George that he will quickly snatch the best thing away from you just when you want more of it-- because he's got more of where that good thing came from. That’s the George I admired.

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