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Thread: Rian Johnson's trillogy is still being made

  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by keknivek View Post
    I have a hard time understanding what "everyone" that is going nuts about GoT is so upset about? I think that they probably didn't want it to end and that 13 episodes to end the spectacle that had 60 episodes of setup was going to be disappointing no matter what? I wonder what everyone wanted to happen... it's not like Star Wars where there actually IS years and years of written Expanded Content on what had happened post ROTJ that had to be undone. I had expectations for Disney Star Wars that made me disappointed in what happened. What expectations were there for GoT?

    Was Dany supposed to all of a sudden be accepted by everyone and sit on the throne? People seemed to be excited about Jon being a Targaryen but they didn't see how that would be an issue with him taking the throne? Bran.... Bran, bran, bran.... His plan is actually something to read into, but that's a different subject.

    To say B & W can't write a decent Star Wars story because they followed the most likely path with a story they didn't create seems a bit crazy? To say Rian Johnson can't create a decent Star Wars story has been proven.


    It’s never been about how I wanted the story to go and I turned on it because it didn’t go my way— for both SW and GoT.

    For instance, Dany eventually becoming The Mad Queen is fine and can be an epic development— if it wasn’t just so ridiculously rushed, after so many Seasons showing her to be so resilient, having endured impossible hardship and still remained determined to protect the defenceless: It’s just not convincing to have her snap and become Hitler in 2 episodes. This scenario is just like how George had Anakin’s turn to the Dark Side in The Prequel… Both instances, it’s rushed, clumsily, carelessly and straightup horrendously handled. It’s the same cheap “subverting expectation” as a gimmick that Rian deploys…

    If you can’t see the gradual downward spiral of the writing from Season 5 on, then I suppose you’re one of those fortunate (or unfortunate LOL) viewers that can fully enjoy the series from beginning to end without being critical. To be fair, there are some great moments throughout the series, despite its downward spiral in writing. Hardhome is one of the most intense storytelling of the series that’s able to balance great action set with impressive, lean and mean storytelling. And I’ll always maintain that the production value has only gotten better and stronger to rival any Hollywood blockbuster as the series progressed, along with an always solid soundtrack (just feast your eyes one the gorgeous Battle Of The Ba5stards and Florence's haunting “Jenny Of Oldstone” song from Season 8). On a purely superficial level, the visuals are stunning and can easily draw you in. Sadly, that’s all there is, with nothing of substance once you think beyond the spectacle. And GoT was always better than that. (Seriously, if you can't see the quality writing of the first few Seasons when compared to the last few, I don't know what to say to you...)

  2. #502
    but she didn't quite go all "mad queen" though, did she? the mad king was batshit crazy.
    he was rambling the same thing over and over again. he had clearly lost all of his marbles.

    but Dany still had all of her faculties, she wasn't completely crazy.
    she says it was necessary.... like some still think hiroshima was necessary (otherwise the japanese would never 'bend the knee').
    was it cruel? yes. but it wasn't "crazy" -- there was no need to depict a long drawn-out decent into madness.

    as Tyrion pointed out , her 'hiroshima' moment was consistent with everything she had done before.... it was consistent with her character...
    .....but for some reason the audience seems to have never actually seen her in this way.
    Last edited by Cobalt60; 05-23-2019 at 04:25 PM.
    "Is there anyone on this ship, who even remotely, looks like Satan?" -- James Kirk, U.S.S. Enterprise.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by farmer View Post


    It’s never been about how I wanted the story to go and I turned on it because it didn’t go my way— for both SW and GoT.

    For instance, Dany eventually becoming The Mad Queen is fine and can be an epic development— if it wasn’t just so ridiculously rushed, after so many Seasons showing her to be so resilient, having endured impossible hardship and still remained determined to protect the defenceless: It’s just not convincing to have her snap and become Hitler in 2 episodes. This scenario is just like how George had Anakin’s turn to the Dark Side in The Prequel… Both instances, it’s rushed, clumsily, carelessly and straightup horrendously handled. It’s the same cheap “subverting expectation” as a gimmick that Rian deploys…

    If you can’t see the gradual downward spiral of the writing from Season 5 on, then I suppose you’re one of those fortunate (or unfortunate LOL) viewers that can fully enjoy the series from beginning to end without being critical. To be fair, there are some great moments throughout the series, despite its downward spiral in writing. Hardhome is one of the most intense storytelling of the series that’s able to balance great action set with impressive, lean and mean storytelling. And I’ll always maintain that the production value has only gotten better and stronger to rival any Hollywood blockbuster as the series progressed, along with an always solid soundtrack (just feast your eyes one the gorgeous Battle Of The Ba5stards and Florence's haunting “Jenny Of Oldstone” song from Season 8). On a purely superficial level, the visuals are stunning and can easily draw you in. Sadly, that’s all there is, with nothing of substance once you think beyond the spectacle. And GoT was always better than that. (Seriously, if you can't see the quality writing of the first few Seasons when compared to the last few, I don't know what to say to you...)
    Good discussion. This is how Message Boards are supposed to work.

    I have repeatedly agreed with the rushed storytelling and I agree that the visuals did take some precedence over the story when it came to the big battles. I tend to disagree on Dany. I keep hearing that her turn was so quick, but I would suggest her turn was inevitable. She was doing what she had to do to build her army and calling herself the 'breaker of chains' and 'protector of the realm', but some might call her 'murderer of anyone that doesn't serve her purpose' depending on your point of view. Once she got to Dragonstone she started getting more impressed with herself. I realize this was the start of the also maligned 7th season, but she was intending at that point to take King's Landing, but Jon got in the way. As soon as Jon came into the picture she got caught up in his mission and sacrificed her mission.

    I would say Dany 'snapped' due to bad council and bad luck. Jon being a Targaryen wasn't something she could have anticipated. The army of the dead was not in her plans. Losing 2 dragons ... her children... in so many days/weeks was impossible. Watching Jorah die and then Misandei and Varys turns against her and Jon is an idiot and blabs about his parentage to people he knows will plot against her. She even says, 'I don't have love here, only fear' and then Jon pulls away and she says 'let it be fear'... what did people think she meant by that? She had decided to burn the place down at that point. She hesitated when she heard the bells, but those bells only reminded her of the fact that mercy is weakness... she said that too. So she snapped, but it wasn't in the moment most place it in. It was when Cersei showed no mercy. So really it's Misandei's fault... she did say Dracarys!
    "The Marvel and Transformers team must share a lunch table.
    Star Wars must have sat with GI Joe team." ~ indysolo007


    http://starwarslists.blogspot.com/

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobalt60 View Post

    as Tyrion pointed out , her 'hiroshima' moment was consistent with everything she had done before.... it was consistent with her character...
    .....but for some reason the audience seems to have never actually seen her in this way.
    I think part of the problem the disappointed fans have with all of this, is that they've seen Emilia Clarke often enough in interviews and they've decided she's so sweet and innocent and they tranposed those feelings to Danys. So, when she all of a sudden becomes ruthless in the end, people don't want to accpet the fact that the character and the actress are two different things.

    Had they added 10epsidoes along the way before and during the last season and Danys would have had more time to become so mean and nasty, would people still have accepted it?
    #1 want: Admiral Piett (3.75" TVC line)

    I'd like to exercise my right to free speech, but I really don't have anything to say at the moment.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by keknivek View Post
    So really it's Misandei's fault... she did say Dracarys!
    I feel you, Missandei— dracarys to the entire Season (and take Season 7 along with you) LOL (But the show was a lost cause to me by the time the company of dude bros merrily went wight hunting)

    If you don’t accept into the convenience of Mary Sue Rey easily mastering everything she touches for plot convenience, then you shouldn't accept into “…but Dany was always like this”. Because in essence, that’s what they turned Dany into by having her “snap": a lazy plot device to move the story along out of convenience. You don’t have her go through a hero’s journey for 7 Seasons, only to have her… snap… two episodes in for the last Season.

    And to put her killing spree in context: All those that she ruthlessly killed and/or supported in the killing of, were psychotic slavers, murderers, abusers, tyrants, and dictators. She never once harmed the small folk— and if anything, the everyday people were her motivation to rule over this world. For God’s sake, the woman even chained up her dragons— her only children, because they had killed one small peasant girl while they were on the hunt. By accepting her as a murderer of innocents-- that she always had it in her, then those that served in the military and taken casualties, and all LEO, are all suspects “foreshadowed” to turn into psychopathic killers LOL And my God, Sansa fed Ramsay live to his dogs and walked away with a smirk, and she kept the Vale’s army a secret from Jon, allowing thousands to be killed before coming to the rescue; and that little weirdo psycho Arya’s gleefully poisoned people and fed to Frey his own son before slitting his throat— even threatening Yara openly with "Say one more word about my brother and I'll slit your throat". so they must all “had it in them” to snap? They live in a violent world, all 3 women committed heinous acts of humanity but for very understandable and forgivable reasons to horrible individuals— never civilians. Dany systemically chasing down and burning fleeing unarmed civilians would never be the next “logical” step of her ascension.

    It’s such a lazy, trope of a plot device to have Dany murder thousands upon thousands of the defenceless to show she’s irredeemable, therefore must die. The show runners just got bored and wanted to move on to SW... It’s no different than George lazily having Anakin murder baby jedi to show he’s past the point of no return— and just like Dany, it happens in less than 5min LOL… If you didn’t buy Anakin’s turn, you shouldn’t buy Dany’s either.

    The irony of all this is that Dany’s 5min turn to The Dark Side is actually the more acceptable plot conveniences of the rest of the story that came after her death. Everything after her death that conspires reads like an episode of South Park… We’re way deep in Rian Jonhson nonsense territory. Oy…

  6. #506
    I know that you guys probably don't understand that some of this is spoiler material to some of us. lol I've never seen one episode because it on a Cable channel, but one day I'l like to see it and not know that Carl already died.

    Also, it appears that some people went on "vacation" while I was gone. So hopefully we'll get more civil discussions for a spell.
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  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by farmer View Post
    I feel you, Missandei— dracarys to the entire Season (and take Season 7 along with you) LOL (But the show was a lost cause to me by the time the company of dude bros merrily went wight hunting)

    If you don’t accept into the convenience of Mary Sue Rey easily mastering everything she touches for plot convenience, then you shouldn't accept into “…but Dany was always like this”. Because in essence, that’s what they turned Dany into by having her “snap": a lazy plot device to move the story along out of convenience. You don’t have her go through a hero’s journey for 7 Seasons, only to have her… snap… two episodes in for the last Season.

    And to put her killing spree in context: All those that she ruthlessly killed and/or supported in the killing of, were psychotic slavers, murderers, abusers, tyrants, and dictators. She never once harmed the small folk— and if anything, the everyday people were her motivation to rule over this world. For God’s sake, the woman even chained up her dragons— her only children, because they had killed one small peasant girl while they were on the hunt. By accepting her as a murderer of innocents-- that she always had it in her, then those that served in the military and taken casualties, and all LEO, are all suspects “foreshadowed” to turn into psychopathic killers LOL And my God, Sansa fed Ramsay live to his dogs and walked away with a smirk, and she kept the Vale’s army a secret from Jon, allowing thousands to be killed before coming to the rescue; and that little weirdo psycho Arya’s gleefully poisoned people and fed to Frey his own son before slitting his throat— even threatening Yara openly with "Say one more word about my brother and I'll slit your throat". so they must all “had it in them” to snap? They live in a violent world, all 3 women committed heinous acts of humanity but for very understandable and forgivable reasons to horrible individuals— never civilians. Dany systemically chasing down and burning fleeing unarmed civilians would never be the next “logical” step of her ascension.

    It’s such a lazy, trope of a plot device to have Dany murder thousands upon thousands of the defenceless to show she’s irredeemable, therefore must die. The show runners just got bored and wanted to move on to SW... It’s no different than George lazily having Anakin murder baby jedi to show he’s past the point of no return— and just like Dany, it happens in less than 5min LOL… If you didn’t buy Anakin’s turn, you shouldn’t buy Dany’s either.

    The irony of all this is that Dany’s 5min turn to The Dark Side is actually the more acceptable plot conveniences of the rest of the story that came after her death. Everything after her death that conspires reads like an episode of South Park… We’re way deep in Rian Jonhson nonsense territory. Oy…
    Everyone in this story did awful things. It is jarring that a character can change like Dany did, but I find it part of the story that you have some ambiguity and you don't always see it coming. Ramsey had it coming for sure. Frey may not have deserved the horror he got, but if someone murdered my mother?....... I'd high five Arya after her choice. She at least trained to be a killer.

    Movies have a way of making a twist work where a character isn't what they seem when they only have around 2 hours to sell it. The Usual Suspects, Sixth Sense, Primal Fear, Frozen, Toy Story 3, Zootopia, Monsters Inc., Coco, <<Sheesh Disney...

    I guess the differences I see between what Game of Thrones did and what Star Wars has done with Anakin and what Rian Johnson did with Ep VIII are thus:
    1) We knew Anakin was Darth Vader... that's a big difference. Certainly the way he turned could have been done better. His final turn was too abrupt really, but like Dany many felt the story should have been better. Anakin was always going to turn though... Dany, not everyone knew how it would turn out.
    2) From 1977-1983 and on to the end of 2017 which is almost 40 years we had one view of Luke Skywalker. Irreproachable hero... he was THE hero that would put his life on the line to save his friends and his family. Rian Johnson decided he knew something about Luke's character that no one had seen before. I can say that Luke "COULD" have decided it was best for everyone that he not train more jedi and that he not be involved in things due to his power being too great and his ability to teach not so great. However, he was still Luke Skywalker and that character would not have abandoned those he cared about after a failure. That is the Rian Johnson territory that people don't accept.
    3) Dany was a favorite character for many from the beginning (in that way similar to Luke), you can't say that about Anakin. Vader maybe, because of his coolness. Anakin become much better liked through the Clone Wars, but there was still always the looming darkness. Dany had that darkness (in that way not similar to Luke).
    "The Marvel and Transformers team must share a lunch table.
    Star Wars must have sat with GI Joe team." ~ indysolo007


    http://starwarslists.blogspot.com/

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by keknivek View Post
    Everyone in this story did awful things. It is jarring that a character can change like Dany did, but I find it part of the story that you have some ambiguity and you don't always see it coming. Ramsey had it coming for sure. Frey may not have deserved the horror he got, but if someone murdered my mother?....... I'd high five Arya after her choice. She at least trained to be a killer.

    Movies have a way of making a twist work where a character isn't what they seem when they only have around 2 hours to sell it. The Usual Suspects, Sixth Sense, Primal Fear, Frozen, Toy Story 3, Zootopia, Monsters Inc., Coco, <<Sheesh Disney...

    I guess the differences I see between what Game of Thrones did and what Star Wars has done with Anakin and what Rian Johnson did with Ep VIII are thus:
    1) We knew Anakin was Darth Vader... that's a big difference. Certainly the way he turned could have been done better. His final turn was too abrupt really, but like Dany many felt the story should have been better. Anakin was always going to turn though... Dany, not everyone knew how it would turn out.
    2) From 1977-1983 and on to the end of 2017 which is almost 40 years we had one view of Luke Skywalker. Irreproachable hero... he was THE hero that would put his life on the line to save his friends and his family. Rian Johnson decided he knew something about Luke's character that no one had seen before. I can say that Luke "COULD" have decided it was best for everyone that he not train more jedi and that he not be involved in things due to his power being too great and his ability to teach not so great. However, he was still Luke Skywalker and that character would not have abandoned those he cared about after a failure. That is the Rian Johnson territory that people don't accept.
    3) Dany was a favorite character for many from the beginning (in that way similar to Luke), you can't say that about Anakin. Vader maybe, because of his coolness. Anakin become much better liked through the Clone Wars, but there was still always the looming darkness. Dany had that darkness (in that way not similar to Luke).
    It was established in The Force Awakens that Luke had "given up". His nephew turned to the dark side, destroyed the jedi temple, turned several of Luke's other students to the dark side, and slaughtered the rest. After that Luke is never seen again for years. Not sure how it could be taken any other way than he'd given up. If he hadn't given up then he would've been at the forefront of The Force Awakens leading the fight against evil.
    OT,PT,ST,RO,TPM,AOTC,ROTS,ANH,ESB,ROTJ,TFA,TLJ.... .STOP THE ABBREVIATION MADNESS!!! We are one abbreviation away from being scientologists. Now is the time to join The Abbreviation Resistance Movement!!!

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkManX View Post
    It was established in The Force Awakens that Luke had "given up". His nephew turned to the dark side, destroyed the jedi temple, turned several of Luke's other students to the dark side, and slaughtered the rest. After that Luke is never seen again for years. Not sure how it could be taken any other way than he'd given up. If he hadn't given up then he would've been at the forefront of The Force Awakens leading the fight against evil.
    When Han told the newbies about Luke, I gathered that it was his opinion on how things went. Never thought of it as established knowledge, or as they say in GOT "It is known". But it's been a while since I saw it, so I might remember it differently.
    I guess Luke became a metaphor for getting old and lazy, IDGAF-ish. His youthful spirit was quenched.
    "her arc is to actually get bored of being powerful" - MauLer on YT, A Critique of SWTLJ, p.3

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  10. #510
    It wasn't explicitly stated but it makes sense to me. Evil rises 5 years or less prior to The Force Awakens and Luke skips town.
    OT,PT,ST,RO,TPM,AOTC,ROTS,ANH,ESB,ROTJ,TFA,TLJ.... .STOP THE ABBREVIATION MADNESS!!! We are one abbreviation away from being scientologists. Now is the time to join The Abbreviation Resistance Movement!!!

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