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Thread: Lucasfilm is threatening to make a Lando movie

  1. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Vicarious_Fan View Post
    It's not that there is no money in Star Trek it's that there is no money in the Federation of Planets.
    First, I never said or remotely implied there was no money in Star Trek. In fact, my post points out several places where money IS used in Star Trek. So I'm not sure why you felt the need to clarify that, but, thanks, I guess. As for there being no money in the Federation, I just don't think it's that simple. I realize it's been said on several occasions that they "don't use money," but there also many occasions where we see Federation/Starfleet personnel using and/or discussing using money. Again, DS9 is the probably the best example of this. All of the Federation/Starfleet characters on that show frequent Quark's. They eat, drink, gamble, and use the holosuites there. Now, even if we assume that they have some kind of arrangement for food, drinks, and holosuite time that doesn't involve actual cash changing hands, that wouldn't work for the gambling. Several characters who are members of Starfleet have been shown gambling with pieces of gold-pressed latinum. If there is "no money in the Federation," where do they get the latinum to gamble with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicarious_Fan View Post
    Of course societies outside of the Federation still use money that is why Bones had to try to pay the guy in 3. Doesn't mean he has money just something of value he can use to act as money.
    But all you're doing here is choosing to interpret something in a way that helps you seem more right. McCoy says the words "money I got." If you want to believe that he really means something else, I can't stop you. I'm taking the actual words he said at face value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicarious_Fan View Post
    The ferngi are also not part of the Federation.
    Right. Got it. Which is why I said that they "deal with many other cultures, including the Federation." But again, thanks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicarious_Fan View Post
    Really as soon as they started making movies it got consistent.
    Except it really didn't. Again, we go from Star Trek III where Kirk and McCoy make references to hiring a ship to Star Trek IV where Kirk acts like money is almost a mythical concept.

  2. #312
    Grand Admiral Utinniii's Avatar
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    It had to be some kind of merit based society. Not everyone could live in the best places so they had to find some way to allocate that.
    Food was free, but it was energy based. They didn't really collect "stuff" since it had no value. Health was arguably free since one of the med bay machines tracked "health insurance remaining", but that was probably a joke (like the infinite improbability drive button).
    One could probably live in a small room and do nothing productive, but if someone wanted a nicer place near the ocean they probably had to contribute in some way.
    Travel was restricted, but we don't know to what extent.

    With regards to the Latinuim bars, I think it had to be real and not replicated. That makes sense, otherwise it would have no value.

  3. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Vicarious_Fan View Post
    well again socialist and communist aren't the same thing all though I hear some English Professors think so
    Who said communism and socialism are the same thing? Find the quote. I'll wait.

    but those types of people are largely idiots but in reality they are very different.
    What do you think the biggest differences are between socialism and communism?

    Additionally, was the USSR communist or socialist? Is China communist or socialist? Is North Korea communist or socialist? Is Vietnam communist or socialist? Is Venezuela communist or socialist? Is Cuba communist or socialist?

    What did the term "Nazi" mean, and was Nazi Germany a socialist state?

    I find that it's easy for Bernie Sanders supporters to talk about a distinction between these two ideologies on a Star Wars message board, but these people are rarely able to articulate those differences. I have no doubt that someone of your intelligence, however, should easily be able to elucidate these differences for us.

    So what makes it socialist or more accurately a democratic socialists society.
    Were you a Bernie Sanders supporter, by any chance? What, in your opinion, is the difference between democratic socialism and socialism?

    First the money well i'm not sure if Original television series money was ever mentioned.
    It was mentioned. Multiple times. In Mudd's Women Kirk negotiates with miners on Rigel XII on purchasing their Dilithium Crystals.

    In the Trouble with Tribbles Cyrano Jones haggles with multiple crew members on the Enterprise over the price of Tribbles, including Uhura. The bargaining starts at one credit, and gets as high as 10 credits.

    In the Apple, Kirk asks Spock "Do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you?" To which Spock replies, "Twenty-two thousand, two hun..." before he is interrupted. I'm sure he was not referring to seashells.

    In the Doomsday Machine, Kirk remarks to Scotty: "You just earned your pay for the week." I don't think they were paying Scotty in pints of Scotch.

    Near the end of Star Trek VI: the Undiscovered Country, McCoy remarks about Chang: "I'd give real money if he'd shut up."

    Of course none of this would matter at all if people would just recognize that the politics and economy of the Federation have always been murky in Star Trek, and have never been explained clearly. But, of course, you can't admit that if you have a vested interested in finding socialist/communist themes in entertainment in order to validate your worldview.

    So not having money means there is no class system, everyone is equal.
    No, it doesn't. There are no guarantees of outcome or achievement, nor any guarantees of equal power distribution. It's a fairly ridiculous concept, really, which has absolutely no correlation to the way things work in the real world, which is why this system must necessarily remain murky and unexplained.

    We also know there are no private corporations in the Federation. Sure individuals can own land or business but they aren't doing it to get wealthy, they are doing it because they love what they do like Picard's brother.
    Who said there were no corporations, or that people who owned businesses aren't doing it to get "wealthy"?

    Having privately owned land and businesses doesn't mean it's not socialist that would just be ignorant to think that.
    In Socialism, government controls the means of production and distribution. In your view, what kinds of business would the government allow to be privately owned and operated in a socialist utopia? And is this your opinion only, or does it fall under the codified doctrine of socialism?




    If you need a real world example it would be closer to a Scandinavia Socialists country like Norway or Sweden, one where the officials are democratically elected
    Where do they touch on democratic elections in Star Trek?

    Hell even in China a country that is Communists not Socialistic allows people to own land and private businesses as well as make a profit.
    China claims to be socialist, by the way. And no, they cannot own land.

    Education is completely paid for by the State, again reinforcing that there is no class structure as everyone the same opportunities available to them.
    Again, you are incorrect. There are numerous private schools in China. On top of that, even though parents don't have to pay for elementary or middle school, they do have to pay for High school. In rural areas in China, many children stop their education beyond the age of 15 because their parents can't afford to pay the fees. On top of this, parents must also pay for text books, uniforms, and so on.

    The resource distribution is terrible, and even the Chinese government admits this. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...t_15736894.htm

    Rural areas suffer terribly when it comes to education. Many students even have to bring their own desks to school, the schools are so poor.

    I'm sorry, but you are extremely uneducated about how the school system works in China. I taught in Shanghai, China for 8 years. My wife is from Shanghai. Please do not speak again about something you obviously have no clue about.

    As for other races well the Klingons in the original TV series were supposed to be a metaphor for the Soviet Communists but that was changed when they started making movies.
    No, it didn't. Which is why when the USSR failed and the cold war was over, this was mirrored in the Undiscovered Country.

    I've heard some people stupidly say that the Borg are supposed to be communists but like I said that is just dumb and you would have to be an absolute fool to think such a thing.
    The Borg, as originally designed, were a collectivist society. They had no personal property. They were a classless group that worked together for the betterment of the collective. There was no money, private property, personal business, etc...

    In what way do you think the Borg are not allegorical to communism/socialism?

    So yeah that kind of raps it up, it's clear that the Federation is a socialist utopia (not communist)
    I'm sorry to ask again, but what exactly do you think is the difference between socialism and communism? Because when you figure it out, I think the fine folks at Encyclopedia Britannica, Merriam Webster, Dictionary.com, and other linguists would love to be corrected from someone with atrocious spelling and who can barely put together a coherent, rational thought.






    Please stop. You are not going to win this one either. I'm sorry you are upset, but this discussion is not going to play out any better for you than the last one did.
    Last edited by Jeremiah2849; 05-29-2018 at 05:10 PM.

  4. #314
    Holy Crap!
    You really are a Professor because you just took that chump to SCHOOL!

    Well Done!

  5. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by lister View Post
    First, I never said or remotely implied there was no money in Star Trek. In fact, my post points out several places where money IS used in Star Trek. So I'm not sure why you felt the need to clarify that, but, thanks, I guess. As for there being no money in the Federation, I just don't think it's that simple. I realize it's been said on several occasions that they "don't use money," but there also many occasions where we see Federation/Starfleet personnel using and/or discussing using money. Again, DS9 is the probably the best example of this. All of the Federation/Starfleet characters on that show frequent Quark's. They eat, drink, gamble, and use the holosuites there. Now, even if we assume that they have some kind of arrangement for food, drinks, and holosuite time that doesn't involve actual cash changing hands, that wouldn't work for the gambling. Several characters who are members of Starfleet have been shown gambling with pieces of gold-pressed latinum. If there is "no money in the Federation," where do they get the latinum to gamble with?



    But all you're doing here is choosing to interpret something in a way that helps you seem more right. McCoy says the words "money I got." If you want to believe that he really means something else, I can't stop you. I'm taking the actual words he said at face value.



    Right. Got it. Which is why I said that they "deal with many other cultures, including the Federation." But again, thanks?



    Except it really didn't. Again, we go from Star Trek III where Kirk and McCoy make references to hiring a ship to Star Trek IV where Kirk acts like money is almost a mythical concept.
    it wasn't my intention to imply you did say that just to make my stance absolutely clear. See there are some people on this forum who no matter how many times you tell them they don't seem to understand what you are saying.

    So yeah while I agree it is inconsistent it is just a sci fi tv show/movies. But it's clear what their intent was which is in this Utopian society all money is gone and everyone works together for the betterment of man kind.

    Of course there are going to be inconsistencies and its not well thought out but thats not the point of it.


    Now DS9 did stray from that formula as they went with a more darker view of the future where the technology of the future was constantly breaking down and they had all sorts of problems. But as for the federation itself it seems to stay as a socialist democracy.

  6. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Utinniii View Post
    It had to be some kind of merit based society. Not everyone could live in the best places so they had to find some way to allocate that.
    Food was free, but it was energy based. They didn't really collect "stuff" since it had no value. Health was arguably free since one of the med bay machines tracked "health insurance remaining", but that was probably a joke (like the infinite improbability drive button).
    One could probably live in a small room and do nothing productive, but if someone wanted a nicer place near the ocean they probably had to contribute in some way.
    Travel was restricted, but we don't know to what extent.

    With regards to the Latinuim bars, I think it had to be real and not replicated. That makes sense, otherwise it would have no value.
    Oh yeah i doubt it was that well thought out as to exactly how one gets property but still very clearly a socialists utopia.

    Well here's the thing they do state that everyone works for the betterment of man kind so I don't think in this fictional Utopian society anyone would want to just do nothing.


    As for the gold pressed latinum i vaguely remember in DS9 Quark scanning the bars to check if they are real in one episode. I could be wrong but I seem to remember the subject of counterfeiting came up at one point.


    Well good discussion. Seeing as this thread has gone way off from talking about Lando Calreissans sexuality I think it's probably time the mods close it.


    thanks for bringing up some great points good discussion

  7. #317
    I wonder if tribbles are pansexual.
    "The truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." -Ben Kenobi
    If Disney truly wants series to succeed, it will put the shows on basic cable. I will not pay extra on an already high monthly cable bill to watch one show on one network.

  8. #318
    A lot of people misinterpret the "don't use Money" aspect in Star Trek. All Gene ever said was that "Greed" was gone from the equation.
    Kirk used that line whenever he didn't want to pick up the check.

    As a Starfleet Officer everything was provided for you, so in a sense you didn't need Money. Especially on a ship in space, how often would your currency even work on a another world?


    On a different note. Having seen Solo, I can see where it was left open for sequels. I just hope they find a Director who's right for the job this time. Nothing against Ron, he'd a good Director for "other" things. But IMO, he missed the mark here.
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