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blutch
06-02-2006, 04:59 AM
What happens if nobody buys any fakes/repros?

What happens if nobody buys ANYTHING from those selling repros?

A total boycott of all those selling repros would probably force them to first of all stop selling them. But also decrease the demand for repros and hopefully slow down the manufacturing of new repros and fakes.

Can we agree on this? It is a major task and will not happen over night. But if all scummers agree not to sell any fakes/repros of any sort I am sure that it will make a difference. Also if we contact the sellers to try to persuade them to stop selling repros. And also if we report the auctions to ebay they will eventually have to do something aswell.

I hate fakes and repros since they have cost me hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars and lots of time. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/mad.gif And it continues to cost many honest collectors a lot of money and time. Those selling repros as originals are of course the worst, but even selling repros stating that they are repros is wrong in my book. The buyer knows that the weapons are repros but can sell them on as originals in the next line. So a boycott would hopefully cripple the repro industry and take away the profits of doing it.

Sure, they are a cheap alternative but if you can't afford to buy a complete original figure for $10-12 you should probably concentrate on paying the bills and not collect Star Wars figures at all. (don't get me wrong, I am no Rockefeller either and understand that collecting for most take a strict budget).

So, it might be a lost cause. It might seem like a task way to big to even consider. But wouldn't it be nice to get rid of the fakes and repros? http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif If we all combine our efforts we can send a message to the scammers out there. It is not enough to have a "black list" on the forum. We need to act, now! http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I suggest that we all:
1: Stop selling repros and fakes
2: Stop buying repros and fakes
3: Stop buying anything from those selling repros until they cease doing so. (not even a paper clip)
4: Spread the word to other collectors
5: Contact ebay sellers to urge them to stop selling repros
6: Report repros and fakes to ebay

Again, I might be out on a limb here since many loooove their precious repros and says that they will never stop selling them. But lets hit them were it hurts: Their wallets! http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

What do you guys out there think? http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Lee_Bullock
06-02-2006, 05:16 AM
Nice idea, galvanising people into such action is almost impossible. Brians Toys sells repros, do you think people will stop buying from them if a key piece comes up? also the repros are already out there, millions of them. The fact they are still in circulation means that people are still going to be left carrying the can boycott or not. It would take an enormous public internet campaign supported by ALL of the major SW websites, and frankly that aint going to happen because they would be losing the sponsorship of those companies. The only thing would be for LFL to slap copyright infringement notices on these companies and force them to remove them from sale like they do with bootlegs on ebay.

Sorry to rain on your parade this is the truth as I see it.

Lee

Jedi_matt_c
06-02-2006, 05:34 AM
anything else, that is a lot to demand and to be houest do you actaully buy paperclips off the same people that do reproduction starwars

SWaddict
06-02-2006, 06:24 AM
Well there is an RS member who recently decided to start selling aton of repros on ebay and I do worry about ending up with any repro in my collection. I don't have anything against a repro that is a different color from the origional or is clearly marked as a repro...it's the ones which try to look just like the original that bother me...and of course thats what people buy! Please stop selling repros and I would encourage RS members not to do business with anyone associated with repros...just my opinion.

blutch
06-02-2006, 07:09 AM
Nice idea, galvanising people into such action is almost impossible. Brians Toys sells repros, do you think people will stop buying from them if a key piece comes up? also the repros are already out there, millions of them. The fact they are still in circulation means that people are still going to be left carrying the can boycott or not. It would take an enormous public internet campaign supported by ALL of the major SW websites, and frankly that aint going to happen because they would be losing the sponsorship of those companies. The only thing would be for LFL to slap copyright infringement notices on these companies and force them to remove them from sale like they do with bootlegs on ebay.

Sorry to rain on your parade this is the truth as I see it.

Lee



Hehe, no rain on my parade. It is flooded and we're parading through streets where it is very windy and filled with locust, snow and nails. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I know that it is a virtually impossible task. But I wanted to ventilate the idea. What would happen if we agree on this here on the forum as a kind of honor code? That we just keep away from this rubbish. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I know the difference between repros and originals and when I receive a repro I do not hesitate to complain to the seller. So apart from the fact that it takes time and makes collecting a little less fun it doesn't hurt me more than anyone else. I just wanted to raise the issue and see what can be done. I am sure that most scummers have been scammed at least once by a "Red caped Bib Fortuna" (dyed), "100% original blaster"(repro) or "Mint on card never opened" (re-seal). I agree that red or white stormie blasters would be okay since no-one would think that they are original, but most repros are black or blue and if you don't have the skills you are bound to be fooled by them. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/frown.gif
And we on this forum must be considered if not experts then at least knowing a little about repros and can find the way to Jawas Armory. So why not start here and then see if we can clean ourselves up, and then maybe continue with the rest of the hobby?

Decreased demand is bound to decrease interrest in manufacturing more of them. And if we just inform people that we won't buy anything from them (forget about paper clips, but say Hoth backpacks then. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) if they sell repros then it would have to end. Even Brians Toys should know that if the customers tell them that these items are rubbish, they ought to keep away aswell. A polite e-mail is a good start. Then maybe a general "No repro"-banner can be given to those sellers that totally implement this no-repro-rule? (i.e. "The Good Guys" http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

Any ideas at all as to what we could do?

(Again, I know that it is not going to happen over night, or even at all. But it is an interresting issue and deserves to be discussed seriously.) http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Lee_Bullock
06-02-2006, 07:15 AM
I am totally with you mate. I used to trade at shows and I used to have a no repro sign on my stall. Repros have been the bane of my collecting for 15 years!! I still think the best way would be for LFL to step in and force the big guys to clean up their act. It is still technically copyright infringement.

blutch
06-02-2006, 07:32 AM
Yeah maybe so... But do LFL care about the vintage accesories? They are not making any $ on them anymore so it might be difficult aswell. On the other hand it would be worth a try to see if something happens. Anyone that can pull some strings, send some e-mails etc?

Matt_T
06-02-2006, 07:53 AM
What happens if nobody buys any fakes/repros?

What happens if nobody buys ANYTHING from those selling repros?

A total boycott of all those selling repros would probably force them to first of all stop selling them. But also decrease the demand for repros and hopefully slow down the manufacturing of new repros and fakes.



Q: What happens? A: Nothing happens. Even if there was a concensus on this matter within the Star Wars collecting community (all the various groups) it would still be an uphill battle to get rid of repros. Some such individuals have no problem with repros (weapons/parts), and there are many more who tolerate them (myself included). The point being, you will not see a united front on this matter by the collecting community. Even so, I don't think for one second that the collecting community is the major player in this (whether buying or selling). Most true collectors only want real vintage weapons/accessories anyway, and so stay away from repros as much as possible.

The real problem is with the general public. There is no doubt in my mind that the majority of repro purchases are made by people getting ready to sell off their childhood toys. Lets face it, people aren't totally stupid - a small amount of research can easily persuade someone that a group of figures w/ weapons goes for much more money (sometimes twice the price), than a group w/out weapons. So its no surprise that a set of repro weapons gets thrown in w/ the group for an extra $5-$10. I believe that most who do this probably don't realize that true collectors don't want repros - they really don't care, they just want a higher bid on their figures. The problem is - there's nothing that can be done about that. No add campaign touting the evils of repros is going to change the behaviour of people looking for a few extra bucks. If someone is getting rid of their toys, what do they care about maintaining the integrity of the stock of toys in the collecting community?

Its almost like the record labels trying to convince people that downloading copyrighted material for free is wrong. The issue ends up being, not a question of right or wrong, but of ability to get what is wanted. If people want it and can get away with it - that makes it right.

So, again: What happens? - Nothing happens. We in the collecting community continue to discuss the evils of repros, while realizing that it has simply become a reality we must deal with.

Trent
06-02-2006, 08:58 AM
...

3: Stop buying anything from those selling repros until they cease doing so. (not even a paper clip)

...




That's it! You're spelling doom for the paper clip industry as we know it and you're going to bring down the world economy in the process!

Seriously though, I think most of us have been hit by receiving repros when they should have been authentic and it sucks. I'm curious where you think this should go, though? Are you keeping it at the level of the stormtrooper gun ($2 repro as opposed to $4 authentic) or are you taking it all the way to the top (at least for me) and banning repro Droids Series 2 figs? I'd very, very much like to get an authentic Mungo or Meade (heck, even peices of them) but it isn't going to happen so I'll have a repro to admire in the meantime. Somebody made the earlier statement about stamps - would you rather have a nice quality copy of a rare stamp or have the hole until you can find one and have the $4k to fill it?

I suspect, however, this campaign is about fig accessories and guns (or the next level even, ship parts). I, like many others, have been collecting for a very long time and IMHO, repros have done a few things for me:

1) Enabled me to equip my son's army of stormtroopers (with repros that I don't mind going into the register).

2) Enabled me to equip my ATATs and Death Stars with authentic accessories (chin guns now at $30 a pair, ropes now at $15 as opposed to 2 years ago at $40 each for chin guns and ropes at $60). Same thing can be said about my YPS Snowtrooper army and other figures and ships I've got with the authentic peice/part since the repro has become available.

I also believe since you can get "complete original figure for $10-12" in part to repros existing. (Boy, I'm sure that will get me some flames). Face it, authentic stormtrooper guns are $4 because the half price alternative exists. If they weren't around, simple economic theory would make the price jack way up.

If you're concerned about the loss of value you have incurred due to repros, then to reference an earlier scummer: Star Wars toys are not an investment.

Now, if you've lost "hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars" due to buying repro storm guns..then..wow, that's alot of stormies. However, I also suspect it's from not being able to ascertain for sure if a rare piece is authentic or not. If you're buying on ebay and you think you're getting a great buy on a LL Emperor that has a black staff and it turns out to be a repro, then that really sucks. Ebay is a crapshoot - sometimes you get the deal and sometimes you get the shaft. I guess that's why I seldom buy anything on ebay unless it's from somebody I trust. If you convince eBay to do anything about it, then it will just go back underground and then you absolutely will not know until it arrives. At that point we are fortunately, thankfully, mercifully, and sarcastically under eBay's "protection".

If I recall, this type of thing has been done on the board in Sweden (forgive my memory if I am incorrect, it was an old thread and I'm rushing this morning). I can respect that and can certainly appreciate the effort. I can equally respect people wishing to collect to their level of budget. Probably like many people on this board, I've helped many people on the path to testing repros, pointing them to the Armory of the Jawas, and just plain answering questions. Some of those people don't have it in their budget to get the things they'd like right away and will buy a known repro and upgrade later. Others will save longer and then do it.

Try to educate your buyers, not stop your sellers. Some might call me an ignorant American as I don't have great insight into the European mindset, but IMHO, this is the US-centric view. "A few years ago", some people tried preventing the sale of alcohol in the US and all that happened was the crooks got rich. Yeah, some of them went to jail, but most had a very nice life. Same thing has been tried for years by (government and non-government) radicals and doesn't really seem to work very well in the long run.

Okay, there are going to many long winded (my apologies) comments on this thread, I just can't wait to see them when I get home from work. Discussion is good. Attention is good. Just reconsider the approach to the issue.

Dave_T
06-02-2006, 01:45 PM
I think that your heart's in the right place, but at this point in time, I really don't think it's a "war" (as you put it) that’s worthwhile.

1: Stop selling repros and fakes
2: Stop buying repros and fakes

Since buying/selling coexist by definition, there are really only two possibilities here: repros sold as repros, and repros sold as genuine. Someone who is selling a repro as genuine will not suddently have a change of heart and decide not to do so simply because someone says, "stop." And if someone is selling a repro and states such, if a buyer wants it and can't afford/find the genuine article, then some will always choose the repro rather than the hole in their collection.

And yes, here’s an example where I'd ONLY buy a repro: my five year old son loves vintage loose figures (when I carefully show them to him, ofcourse). His favorite character is R2D2, and there's nothing in the world he wants to play with more than a vintage R2D2 with pop-up saber. So, I can either let him play with my gem mint loose original figure, or I can buy him a beater piece with a repro decal and repro saber that he'll love just as much, and can actually play with. So if I put a WTB ad in the Rebelscum Classifieds for an R2 with repro pop-up saber and repro decal, does that mean I’m hurting the hobby? I’m probably doing more for the hobby by instilling a love of vintage figures in my son. It’s hard to let a five year old love a toy that you won’t let him touch.


3: Stop buying anything from those selling repros until they cease doing so. (not even a paper clip)

If those pieces are profitable, it doesn't matter what kind of protest movement you may try to mount. And frankly, I think this is going a little overboard-- big dealers are pretty much selling repro weapons packs as such, without deception. Stopping these supplies from entering the market (through the dealers) won't change a thing. The genie's out of bottle already, as far as the number of reproduction items in the marketplace.

4: Spread the word to other collectors

No argument here, but many collectors already know about reproduction pieces, so I don't think you'll get much mileage out of this.


5: Contact ebay sellers to urge them to stop selling repros

I have a big problem with this one. You might not want to buy or sell repros, and I might not want to (exception above), either, but if a seller and buyer want to, it's really their business. (This is a hypothetical, since I don't sell repros, but...) let's say that if I was selling something that said "repro" in the listing, and my bidders were bidding on those auctions, then that must mean that they want a repro, right? In that case, why would I, as a (hypothetical) seller listen to you, someone who's completely outside of the transaction, telling me to stop? All you'll do is alienate a bunch of sellers, who'll probably tell you to go [censored] off.

6: Report repros and fakes to ebay

Do you really think ebay would care? The only thing they might listen to regarding this issue is if Lucasfilm attorneys sent them some nasty letter telling them to terminate these listings. I don't care how many other "regular" people you drum up to complain to ebay about this-- it'll be a huge waste of time.

I think repros are just a part of the hobby, for better or worse (worse, for most people). Every hobby has things like this they just have to deal with (restoration, fakes, etc), so this one is no different. And many hobbies have it far worse.

craignwo4life
06-02-2006, 04:02 PM
If I sell a loose figure on ebay I may add a repro weapon (if I have one) but I always state it clearly in the description.

The prices of original weapons are crazy so if I get any spare ones I like to keep them, just incase I find a new loose variant and I need a weapon to complete the figure.

Sadly we will never totally get away from having repro items in this hobby as some sellers don't know the difference and those that do will keep selling them on.

blutch
06-02-2006, 06:14 PM
Thanks for your input guys. There are many great points made and as I said, I do not expect this to work, I just wanted to discuss the topic. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif And it works well in Sweden with most collectors doing the dirty work of contacting sellers, spreading the word, and not dealing with repros.

Repros for children to make them interrested and so they have toys is of course okay, and I wouldn't use a $90 R2D2 Popup Sabre for that. But perhaps a red sabre would be just as cool for the kid to play with? (just to separate it from the originals and avoid mix-ups) And I wouldn't mind using all repros I find for that purpose anyway since the risk of the children selling them to collectors is pretty slim. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anyway, I have received some repro stormtrooper blasters but the ones making the repro transactions expensive are the piles of Cloud Car Pilot Communicators, Luke Jedi blue sabers etc. Of course I am loosing money on this since I only want original items and had to buy new originals for more money to complete my set.

Scenario: If I pay say $35 for a Luke Jedi with blue saber. Or even more. Expecting an original. And the figure has a blue repro saber and blaster. The value of the loose figure without accesories is perhaps $7-8 (with cape). With shipping costs I pay perhaps $40 and thereby loose about $30 on this transaction, even if I sell the figure that I don't need and destroy the repros. (or sell them for a couple of $-s). The seller doesn't understand why I would want the entire amount back and return the figure but I don't want an incomplete figure, I want a complete original figure with original accesories. Otherwise I would have taken my business elsewhere. These transactions are way to common on ebay.

And sure, it is not my business to interfere with person A buying a bunch of repros from person B. But person B sells the repros with loose figures like the example above basically stealing $30 from me or someone else. And of course, the big money is in the repro black palace blasters, amanaman staffs, blue sabers, Stormie helmets etc. Not bespin blasters. And those making lots of money on repros are the dealers. Some of them systematically sell repros and make big bucks. If someone finds their childhood collection and adds a pile of repros then they are not staying in the hobby at all. And besides, if they can't find that pile of repros for $10-15 then even they wouldn't be able to "increase the value" of their lot.

But never mind. I wanted to try to see what could be done and what you guys think about it. As you noticed it seems to work here in Sweden (me and the others here have worked hard to do it) and I think that it is great. I just wanted to see if anyone here agreed on the same policy. But I understand your points and it makes sense. And I don't know why I even bother since I mostly buy from those I trust as someone recommended. So nowadays I avoid most of the scams. But even the best sellers sometimes make mistakes. And I wanted to help as many as possible to avoid being scammed. I think that spreading the word about how to separate the originals from repros is a good method.

Oh, and a topic that says war on repros probably turns some heads which is why I chose it. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ChrisGeorgoulias
06-02-2006, 08:31 PM
Too much resistance even from the inside! Oh well, it's a noble cause. Reproductions are bad news in any hobby really, but you'll never squash demand. Just protect yourself and shake your head....

-chris

Jorge
06-02-2006, 10:44 PM
i've been tempted to buy those big lots of repros, just to keep on the side and to help me spot them easier on stuff i purchase in the future. i still haven't bought any.. i just can't bring myself to do it.

AlexSWE
06-03-2006, 03:50 AM
I say you must believe that something can be done.
If we donīt take a statement who will?
And I donīt think (if possible) all SW-comunities together are a customer that the dealers just donīt care about.
Because who do you think buy there rare stuff? vintage for say $500$+.
Letīs pray that LFL stepps in to the ring! http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
It has to start somewere, and even you guys that has one or two in your collection, donīt you think that it whould be worth those if you could clean say 70-80% off the whole street?
As it is now it can really ruin the whole thing with vintage, what will we do when there is a repro so good you canīt tell itīs a repro? Guns, VC Capes, parts to ships, reaseales...Figures in the end? http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Just act as itīs raining and if you canīt se any differens it does not matter?
I say there is only one good thing with them and that is to save them as a bank to compare against.

Some say I clearly mark in my auctions "repro"!
-Yes, and if the new owner when he/she sell it the next day "happens" to forget itīs a repro...
You canīt swore your self free by saying "I mark my auctions repro" because everybody donīt.
What you may do is fool someone in the next line.

Itīs nice that the qestion is rised! http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tykrazen
06-03-2006, 06:18 AM
Let me add another layer to this discussion (primarily because it will bear out in a project I'm working on). I'm working on a small number of vintage customs that have a high likelihood of ending up out in the open market. I had planned on purchasing repro weapons to outfit these custom figures (no sense taking an original weapon off the market). But given some of the backlash in this thread I'm wondering if it would be better if I made my own molds with repro marks on them.

Which is less damaging to the community -- for me to buy from the existing repro sellers or to introduce another mold out there for possible confusion?

gratefulhan
06-03-2006, 09:58 AM
Hey guys,
I don't really agree with repros of any type. However, I can't honestly blame some of these guys who get them for their kids who are going to play with the toys. There is no sense loosinng or desroying a mint piece, and hey, they are still toys and kids will play with them.

I wanted to touch on one point that has perplexed me: Major sellers, like Brian's Toys in particular, that sell repros. The truth is that I can't blame them because repros sell.. I recall seeing a listing under the rare figures section for a Red Cape Bib Fortuna with a Repro cape. What surprised me is that it sold for $60! I mean that is an $8-$12 figure with a red dye on the cape? http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I guess it really is simply a supply and demand thing. I would like to see no more repros but because there ia a demand, I don't think the supply will stop.
Rick http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Matt_T
06-03-2006, 05:19 PM
Let me add another layer to this discussion (primarily because it will bear out in a project I'm working on). I'm working on a small number of vintage customs that have a high likelihood of ending up out in the open market. I had planned on purchasing repro weapons to outfit these custom figures (no sense taking an original weapon off the market). But given some of the backlash in this thread I'm wondering if it would be better if I made my own molds with repro marks on them.

Which is less damaging to the community -- for me to buy from the existing repro sellers or to introduce another mold out there for possible confusion?



I can't see how it would impact the hobby one bit either way. There are so many repros out there already, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. I think the important thing is to make a note on your listing that the weapons are repros.

Trent
06-03-2006, 05:51 PM
...
Letīs pray that LFL stepps in to the ring!



You know, I've heard this as a discussion point before. Not to rain on amybody's parade, but what possible reason would LFL have to ever consider taking any action? Now, if you started casting clones, custom painting them, and selling them, then they might have cause because they "might" be able to prove financial loss if it were on a large enough scale.

1. For figure weapons, especially vintage ones, they won't make a single bit more money, so they don't have a justification to spend the money on a lawsuit.

2. Can somebody point out to me why these are "illegal"? The originals aren't printed with a copyright or anything. I'm not a lawyer, but in a previous job, I earned one patent and am listed as a co-inventor on a second. With all the hoops I had to jump through, I'm just not sure how these qualify.

BTW, I know weapons packs are easily available on the 'bay - I did succumb to buying one when I saw them (which I promptly used to help identify fakes in my own collection). If anybody wants a few to help weed out their own collections, drop me a PM.

man_oh_amanaman
06-04-2006, 01:14 PM
Reproduction coins (http://www.24carat.co.uk/reprocoinsproliferateframe.html)


Here is a very interesting article about repro coins that I totally agree with. This article provides some insight on where the reproduction world of Star Wars is going and should go. Some of you already stated similar ideas in this thread. I understand the frustration of dealing with repros because whether some like it or not it is a fact that Star Wars can be an investment. It is left entirely up to the individual buying the item. I use to look at it like a "Fun investment". That was my personal hobby. It made the hobby fun for me. Repro really concerned me. Now I am not to concerned about repros though because I am not worried about the value of my personal collection. Believe me. My focus is Lando http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I guess what I have to say unless your seriously buying and spending thousands I would not worry about reproductions. You cannot lose that much money being taken on reproduction loose weapons. Sure it sucks but really your not out all that much money.

DarthPete
06-04-2006, 10:03 PM
So this action would be called what..The Clone Wars?

lol, I'm sorry, I saw the title of the thread and it just popped in there. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Mike_Machika
06-05-2006, 06:34 AM
I must admit, at one point, some time ago when I still had a large portion of my loose vintage collection from my childhood I got into acquiring repro weapons in order to complete those figures whose weapons I lost as a child. At the time it seemed like the right thing to do - I wasn't collecting these (and still don't) things for monetary value - I figured, what better, more inexpensive way to complete these than to go after repros. It wasn't long after I made that decision I had a change (for the better) of heart. I actually felt "dirty" owning these fakes. People would see my collection and say "Geez, you even have ALL THE WEAPONS". Little did they know my dirty little secret. Anyways - flash forward a little ways to when I did something that bothers me even more to this day - I sold the repros! Thankfully I sold them to a fellow RS member, but it still doesn't help my piece of mind. I fear that some of those very weapons could have fallin into the hands on an unsuspecting collector. Thankfully I didn't have that many, in fact I did end up throwing a good bit away (when I found more later on in a junk drawer my wife was cleaning out). It's terrible I know - and trust me I live with it everytime I hear a horror story of how someone got ripped off by acquiring a fake piece that they thought was real. Hopefully that same RS member will read this, decide he too no longer wants the fakes and decides to eat his $8 purchase and throw them all away! here's to hoping!

mike

_Lee_
06-05-2006, 11:56 AM
I too agree with your attitude towards repros etc,but i seriously have one thing to ask you.How on earth did you get scammed for that much http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/confused.gifit is sometimes easier(and cheaper in the long run)to fully educate yourself in the particular field rather than be continually scammed.I assumre you are educated in the collecting field,but you need to take a step back and ask yourself how and why you got scammed.

Also,IMO Lucasfilm would never step into the ring as far as this is concerned,it would open up a can of worms for them that would never stop.There are simply too many people who make this repro crap,and i for one cannot see Lucas instructing lawyers to go after each and every one as it just wouldnt be worth his time or resources.We are not talking about unlicensed replica Stormtrooper armour here,we are talking about something that anyone can do with a printer and a loose figure.

I myself think a good majority of the people who buy this crap are the fly by night collectors who will get sick and tired of looking at it day after day,and then their love for Star Wars will diminish and with a bit of luck they will throw them in the bin(figure excluded of course http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif).

The main purpose of me posting in this thread was to support what you are saying,but i for one would like to encourage everyone to do research before buying anything they are not sure of http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Lee

blutch
06-05-2006, 05:02 PM
Hi again guys, I have been away all weekend and just read all the posts. Again, more interresting posts to read. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

To reply to _Lee_ on why I get scammed so much, I can simply say that I have been buying a lot of vintage SW these past two years and I have a variations collection of 600+ different variations. I know a lot about separating repros from originals and I have NO repros in my collection. Those items are not a part of my collection at all and are kept in a bag for reference purposes only. When looking for variations I often have to search for many months on ebay (because most variations are unknown to most collectors and the WTB-posts on the RS-forum did not yield as much treasures as I had hoped). And when the figure I have been looking for finally pops up on ebay it is sometimes from a guy that sends me repros. And I have many sellers that I return to which I know will send me what originals and great quality items. BUT, and here is the big BUT, no matter where you try to buy the figures you are almost certain to get some repros sometimes. Sellers can have 100% feedback and with hundreds and even thousands of sales and still send repros that they claim are original. I am wondering if they know, but still give it a try because so many still can't tell the difference and only a few will complain. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/mad.gif

And I have purchased figures from a couple of hundred sellers of all sorts and from many countries and the worst repro-distributors are the big dealers from the UK and US. Some of them are excellent but many are very unreliable.
And I always ask questions before buying anything, just to make sure that everything is original. But still when the items arrive they are sometimes repros anyway. And if the description says "original" and the picture is normal it is still very difficult to tell if it really is original until you hold it in your hands at home. Few sellers bother to take close-ups on the weapons so I can see if they are telling the truth before buying.

And I also have to point out that I am not in this hobby to invest money or make a buck. Many of the posts above suggest that the only downside to repros is that the value is lower. And I get the feeling that you think that this is the reason I am in the hobby and why I want to get rid of repros. Not true at all. It is not the fact that my collection is worth a few bucks less when I sell it, but it is the fact that I don't want a collection filled with fakes. It is like someone above said that it is a very unsatisfying feeling to know that your great collection is fake. (!) It is just as stupid as collecting xerox copies of valuable stamps or paintings. (I collect stamps aswell and I would never touch any fakes there either.)

So I want everything to be original since the hobby is vintage Star Wars, not vintage figures with fake weapons. Where is the nostalgia in repros??? What bothers me about all repros is that they are always bound to end up scamming someone. It might be me, it might be someone else. It might take four or five sales before the dis-honest transaction takes place. No matter how much you study or choose the sellers you buy from we are all bound to be scammed sooner or later. And it takes time and money to call the bluffs and complain, return the items and demand refunds. (I have been there MANY times) http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/mad.gif

But if we all stop buying repros, and stop selling repros, and bite the bullet to take the loss of not selling the repros we will all benefit in the long run. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I am sure that I will loose more than most here by this policy but it will probably help fellow collectors and help this hobby. I enjoy collecting, and want an honest hobby and it is very sad that some people involved in this hobby are in it to scam other people and steal their money. And the repros is one tool that scammers use.

PS. If someone wants to make customs etc and also make weapons for them, go ahead. I would suggest to make them very different and mark them with a big "R" or something but I would also guess that a "custom line" of a few figures will not hurt the hobby. It is a fun way to collect I guess (have not tried it myself though). It is the major manufacturers and distributors of repros that I want to stop. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif

PS (again): And if someone is so (to be honest) stupid that they buy a dyed cape for a Bib Fortuna for $60 knowing that it is fake, then they deserve to have a collection with fakes. It is not demand, it is crazy. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

John_sH
06-05-2006, 07:41 PM
Maybe everyone could paint their convincingly good repos hot pink (or some other unlikely color) before throwing them back into the marketplace.

There are also several fathers already mentioned (and myself included) who want them for their kids, so there's another option.

spoons
06-06-2006, 01:49 PM
I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring. I for one am not against repros, my one gripe is that they may be passed off as originals.

However, if you receive a 'mislabelled' repro through a bad ebay deal return it and claim a refund. If the seller doesn't play ball they are comitting fraud (albeit for a pound or two) and can be reported.

There is only one seller I have come across that wouldn't refund, he said he personally couldn't tell the difference between original and repro so wouldn't refund, although he buys repros in bulk off bluesnagman! Incidently when I stated this on his feedback he made it private - beware of private feedback! Anyway I digress.

I'm for repro weapons for the following reasons a) For the kids (as said by many before) my daughter loves her princess leias and darth vader!

but also b) freedom of choice.

You can buy replicas of almost anything, cars, antique statues, suits of armour.. whatever. If people want to own a replica they can and will. I agree that the difference in price makes it hardly worthwhile owning a repro gun over a vintage one, but if the choice is there why not.

I upgraded most of my loose figures by buying them repro accessories and selling them on (clearly labelled as repros). With the proceeds I could afford to buy a figure with original accessories, rather than buying overpriced loose original weapons. I wanted originals - others wanted repros.

I guess because they thought it was cheaper or just liked owning vintage figures, they weren't bothered about authenticity. The prices they were being sold for meant that buying them to pass them off as originals wasn't an option. I sold my repro Lando General for Ģ30 - I bought the vintage one for Ģ35. The guy that bought the repro version obviously wasn't going to make much if he did buy it for dubious reasons.

If you are serious about collecting anything you learn what to look out for, therefore repros aren't a problem. If you're not serious about collecting, it doesn't matter if you own repros.

Sorry for waffling on, and its just my opinion

Andy

Jedi_Bri
06-09-2006, 01:14 AM
Just adding another vote against repros. I take pride in the fact that I have never sold a repro weapon or part on ebay. As someone said above, repros are bad for any collecting hobby.

Ian_C
06-23-2006, 09:41 AM
I know I'm late to this discussion, but wanted to add my take on it.

For my collection, I despise repros. For the longest time, I wished that there were no such things.

However, that changed (slightly) a couple of years ago. Like others have mentioned, I also have a young son who enjoys his vintage figures. Even though I have obtained some more 'desirable' figures, I have no intention on giving him an authentic saber for his R2, or staff for his Amanaman, since I know these will likely be either broken or lost in time. I'm saving the authentic ones for when he is older, but while he is a kid and playing with them, repros are just fine.

Ian

jedi79
02-04-2007, 04:36 PM
i agree with blutch.
what will happen in the future? they may make repos so good that there is absolutly no way of telling. same with these reseals which do my head in. its ruining the hobby. i admit iv sold repos in the past but im defo gonna stop.
btw how can you tell a repo sticker like r2d2?
thanks

spoons
02-04-2007, 06:06 PM
the r2 stickers I've seen are very good but generally they're on thicker paper.

If you're not confident about spotting fakes, it's probably worth building a repro reference library for comparison. You get peace of mind for not a great deal of outlay.

doomdeath
02-04-2007, 08:30 PM
IMO i have some repros in my collection,untill i can get an original part the repro does nicely....plus since i customise vintage figures once i do get the original...then the repro goes in my loose fodder bin...cause i can deal with chopping up or painting a repro for a custom figure...but not an original.

sellers who try to pass repros off as original on purpose with the intent to rip off a buyer should have their nuts cut off with a dull rusted razor blade and shoved down their throat.

but if a seller aknowlages that the figure comes with a repro then good cause the seller is being honest and giving the buyer a chance to make up his or her or its mind.

for some people who want to collect but are married or have bills or other expenses repros are the best way to go if they choose it..

.when a original luke stormie helmet or a green bowcaster or a db teloscoping saber or even the plastic cape to the jawa can cost from 20.00 80.00 (i saw that at a collectors show for a stromie helmet) that can pay a lot of bills as oposed to maybe 5.00-10.00 for a good repro.

besides collectors who complain that the repro should not be black or blue they never are...they are close put the feel is wrong, its a more riged plastic then the original and some you can see thru if you hold it up to the light

thats my 2 cents worth i'm charging 5.00 for http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif...

it comes down to a buyers prefrence...i think theres worst things then dealing with repro weapons...IMO

vintage69
02-04-2007, 11:21 PM
Some of my thoughts...

Are there really "millions" of repros out there? or is it more like thousands? Even though many vintage weapons etc. went the way of the vaccuum cleaner, I don't believe that Bluesnag, Brian, and all of the repro sellers all over the world have put that many repros on the market to come close to matching the number of Kenner weapons that are still out there, and I'll bet that your chances of getting a real weapon on a loose figure far outweighs your chances of getting a fake. Of all of my loose figure purchases on e-bay over the years, I've ended up with a small number of repros, and the situation was quickly rectified by theearthtoymall.com.

Now, when we get into the world of rare stuff, I concur it is a different story in terms of percentages of real vs. fake. So our hobby has given us a few solutions to this (although not foolproof, dramatically increases the chances of not getting screwed). These solutions include buying MOC, getting an AFA graded figure, and good-old fashioned buying in person!! Let's face it, the art of ripping people off via mail order has been going on much longer then the existence of repros or the internet.

Secondly, is it just me or are repros starting to die out naturally? They don't seem as popular to sellers as they were a few years ago.

Next, I don't understand the logic of "filling in" a collection with repros. You either have a VC jawa or you don't. You either have a DT Vader, or you don't. I suppose the argument here is that if you can't afford a Picaso, you would still buy a print. But prints are for people who can't afford ANY Picasos. I don't think Picaso collectors are "filling in" their collection with prints!

Lastly, repros have wasted my TIME much more then anything else. Time looking at things closely. Time questioning sellers, Time reading through this and other websites discussing how to spot a repro. Time replacing a $2 weapon with a $5 weapon, etc.

In summary, I think our hobby is much "easier" then most, even with repros. You wouldn't catch me dead bidding on a "guitar that Paul McCartney used" or a "jersey that Barry Bonds owned". And I won't buy any autograph unless it is signed in person. Where's the fun in that anyway?

doomdeath
02-04-2007, 11:36 PM
Next, I don't understand the logic of "filling in" a collection with repros. You either have a VC jawa or you don't. You either have a DT Vader, or you don't. I suppose the argument here is that if you can't afford a Picaso, you would still buy a print. But prints are for people who can't afford ANY Picasos. I don't think Picaso collectors are "filling in" their collection with prints!





the logic is... not everyone can afford to buy a real VC jawa or rocket fireing boba fett ect ect...

so those people like me who want something like that yet can't afford to spend hundreds or in some cases thousands on 1 item this is the next best thing...so don't look down on the financelly chalanged.....if you can afford to buy the real thing...then do it...more power to you...but to some of us regular folks repros, reissues, tributes what ever name they take..it may be our only means of getting something we want but can't afford

Leif_G
02-05-2007, 12:58 AM
..it may be our only means of getting something we want but can't afford



The thing is, you're not getting 'it', in fact you're getting nothing, and paying for it. You're far better off not having something than deluding yourself into thinking that a worthless replica is worth owning. Cut out a picture of, or imagine, the real deal and save your money until you can afford 'it'.

On the other hand, I think the whole idea of trying to stomp out repros is ridiculously futile.

Leif

doomdeath
02-05-2007, 01:10 AM
..it may be our only means of getting something we want but can't afford



The thing is, you're not getting 'it', in fact you're getting nothing, and paying for it. You're far better off not having something than deluding yourself into thinking that a worthless replica is worth owning. Cut out a picture of, or imagine, the real deal and save your money until you can afford 'it'.

On the other hand, I think the whole idea of trying to stomp out repros is ridiculously futile.

Leif



well unless you want to by me a "real rocket fireing boba fett, or a vlix or wow better yet a real VC jawa"

i would be happy to own a 20-80.00 "replica" then spend 10,000 or more on a authentic hard to get figure..if i'm going to spend thousands of dollars it ain't going on a little plastic man(or in the case of vlix what ever species he is http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)..its on real items like a new car, down payment on a house, student loans...importent stuff

tread9
02-06-2007, 05:25 AM
Doomdeath has a great point! Although I whould love to see all repos and fakes go up in burning flames all at once in a big concentrated pit....sadly, it ain't gona happen. It's there and we all have to live with it. I kinda think it makes the game more fun. Made me research, Whould have never found this site if it had not been for fakes and me wanting to know how to detect them. Their is a demand for repos and fakes. And if it comes between a AFA 95 vinal cape Jawa and a new car....hmmmm? I had a Vinal cape Jawa before and I had to take him every where he went. Granted after I sold him, he did paid for gas for a little while but a new car he was not.

I truley despise fakes but I appreciate a realy good fake for the effort, time and research that went into creating it. You all know what I mean, those realy good ones that we all have in our collections that we think/hope are authentic but have reservations about. The ones that can fool the hardcore collectors..... they may have their place.

Ackbars_No1_Fan
02-09-2007, 09:20 AM
You're far better off not having something than deluding yourself into thinking that a worthless replica is worth owning.
Leif



And so we're back to financial value again. If you say "I'm not talking about the monetary value", then who are you to say something is worthless? Perhaps some one enjoys seeing a replica VC Jawa in their collection, or even doesn't give two hoots if their Stormtrooper is holding a repro or original gun. The repros might have "worth" to them, in terms of pleasure, so to say they are worthless is not fair.

I don't really have an opinion on repros... obviously I'm against people passing them off as genuine, but if some one wants to own a repro weapon (either because they don't have the time/money/interest to pursue an original piece) I say its up to them. It is not for a collecting 'community' to impose what people are and aren't allowed to enjoy/collect.

Leif_G
02-09-2007, 02:05 PM
i would be happy to own a 20-80.00 "replica" then spend 10,000 or more on a authentic hard to get figure..



Of course you could also spend 20-80.00 on a real prototype, but noooo... everyone has to have a 'rocket fett'.

Fan art is another matter... at least I can respect the creative process. Like Bill Cable's unique and classy custom Droids figures.

But as for using repros of actual prototypes in a collection... you might as well collect grains of sand. If everything was cheap and easy to get it would be so much less interesting.

Leif

Leif_G
02-09-2007, 02:10 PM
It is not for a collecting 'community' to impose what people are and aren't allowed to enjoy/collect.



Totally agree. The idea of imposing such restrictions is both unethical and impractical IMO. But acknowleging this doesn't make collecting repros any less ridiculous either.

As for calling them worthless. If it's worthless to me, then its worthless to me, and I'll call it worthless. There's nothing 'unfair' about it.

Be my guest and throw money down a replica and call it valuable. To anyone outside the hobby we're all nuts for putting any kind of money down on any kind of plastic figure, genuine prototype or not.

Leif

tmthor
02-09-2007, 03:28 PM
Recently I decided to sell off some of my transformers (Tomake room for more Star Wars http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif) I decided to get rid of alot of my K.O. s & Bootlegs Ebay took down every one of my auctions because of copyright infringement (some one saw my auctions & reported me) apanently if you report it they may or may not take down auctions I was told by Ebay that K.O Bootlegs & Repro Items with out explicit premissions fro licence holderes were not premitted.
so i guess if you want to play police you could in fact clean up ebay on your own.

jedi79
02-09-2007, 08:10 PM
theres someone on ebay now selling a lot of repo weapons
he is called movie-store-london. i think its out of order he's not really stateing that there repo or original. i
know the money were talking about isnt the same as carded figs but its a lot of weapons and i think it ruining collecting. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/frown.gif
heres the item numbers:

6038664841

6038665480

5980386519

5980386665

6541542657

5983414383

180081358276

180081357774

180083534410

180083534289

180082692072

180082691932

tmthor
02-12-2007, 04:03 PM
I will admit though I have bought Repro Weapons & accesories for my customs

Bryan_X
02-12-2007, 05:16 PM
I bought a claimed 'original' white Leia cape off Ebay recently. It is to replace the white Leia cape on my figure from childhood which has a partial tear in one of the arm holes.

Is there a good resource on what to look for? I've heard of looking for the 'hatch pattern' but neither this nor my cape from childhood have this pattern. Both sides are smooth as far as I can tell. And I know the one from my childhood is real.

The one I recently bought off Ebay is a little taller when flattened out than my original (the rounded top is higher). Other than that, from just above the armholes on down, it matches my original perfectly.

The cape that I bought wasn't pristine clean either which leads me to beleive it probably is real, but I'd like to know if there is any way to distinguish between real and repro for sure. I've looked at the Jawa Armory website but didn't see anything about repro capes there.