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Leif_G
04-21-2006, 09:11 AM
I came across this auction for one of those thick potf coins that were possibly cranked out in preparation for the release of the millenium coins. It's being sold as an authentic CAT 5 POTF coin. But from what I understand from several of the coin experts here, these are not original POTF coins.

I let them know I thought their auction description is inaccurate. Hopefully they are sincerely mistaken and not purposely trying to rook anyone.

POTF Coin on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6053033594&ru=http://search.ebay.com:80/6053033594_W0QQfkrZ1QQfromZR8QQfviZ1)

Matt_T
04-21-2006, 09:42 AM
I saw this too. Its definitely not vintage, even though there is a 1984 copyright on it.

Its possible they just don't know. They just bought this off of brianstoys.com recently. They may have seen how high coin prices are lately, saw this on brianstoys for much less and thought "Hey, quick turn-around - and I'll make a few bucks!"

On the other hand, it could very well be a scam

G_Man
04-21-2006, 10:21 AM
Unless your an ex Kenner employee,(who was there)how would you now what is truely a vintage coin?? One collector's opinion on something does not make it a fact! I looked at the coin also and believe this could indeed be vintage! I also believe there are lots of variations and proto's out there that not any one person has all the knowledge to claim to be the so called expert on. I love collecting coins and enjoy the chase but still try to be humble in my opinions on this focus area. I try and learn as much as I can in order to be as well informed as possible. I still have alot to learn and don't claim to be an expert; just a collector. I would like more info from actual ex kenner employees on this subject. If your knowledge on this subject is just coming from store owners and other collectors then it may not be factual!!! Just my 2 cents!

Leif_G
04-21-2006, 11:00 AM
Even if what you said was true it would be deceitful to sell it as a vintage CAT 5 coin prototype when there's no proof it is. If there was an honest bone in the seller's body they would be advertising it for what it is and NOT what they think it might be. PERIOD.

If it's just an interesting piece with an uncertain history then that's how it should be advertised.

In the case of these 'prototypes', they have been discussed here often and it is commonly accepted that they are NOT vintage era prototypes.

Is this your auction?

G_Man
04-21-2006, 11:20 AM
Not my auction! Just wanted to express my opinion on subject. Once again, would like to hear from people in the "know" on this matter! I really am looking for more definitive information on this subject area myself. Not trying to start a flame war! Just strikes me that some collectors and store owners discredit some of this product and I wonder whether that is based on research, fact, or mere opinion! Sorry if I offended anyone! Not my intention. Gary

G_Man
04-21-2006, 11:25 AM
Dakk, Since you seem to be so sure of what it is NOT perhaps you could tell me what it IS??? Interested in your opinion! Thanks,

Rob_M
04-21-2006, 11:35 AM
Big fan of the exclamation point, huh.

G_Man
04-21-2006, 11:42 AM
Rob, You're right. I'll try to keep that flaw in check! Thanks for your contribution.

Matt_T
04-21-2006, 11:45 AM
First of all, G_man - I don't remember if I welcomed you to the boards - So...Welcome to the boards! It's always nice to have a fellow coin collector around. Also, I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures of the bronze R2.

Now in reply to your statements..



Unless your an ex Kenner employee,(who was there)how would you know what is truely a vintage coin??


Actually, these were not produced by Kenner but by at least 2 vendors working for Kenner. And *technically* you are correct - I was *not* there and these *could* be a true vintage pieces. (Plural because there are 3 different ones.) However, all the indications point to them being somewhat recent pieces - not vintage.




One collector's opinion on something does not make it a fact! I looked at the coin also and believe this could indeed be vintage!


That is the glory of being part of these forums. The opinion that I expressed is not simply my own, it is also that of other, more experienced coin collectors. (And maybe some of them will chime in here.) In fact, I was also originally of the opinion that they were vintage. However, after posing the question to members here, I got more information on it and now believe (based on various facts) that they are in fact post-vintage.




I also believe there are lots of variations and proto's out there that not any one person has all the knowledge to claim to be the so called expert on. I love collecting coins and enjoy the chase but still try to be humble in my opinions on this focus area.


I'm not really sure where this came from - I'm not an expert on POTF Coins, and I will be the first to admit that. However, I have talked to a number of knowledgeable people about these coins, and done research on my own, so I do have *some* knowledge on the subject. When I post information on the subject, I try to relate facts not conjecture. My post was made for the benefit of some of the newer members who perhaps missed the discussion on these coins a few months ago.

Thread (http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=1680216&Forum=,,,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=10&Limit=25&Main=1676970&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=13791&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1680216)
Thread (http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=1624682&Forum=,,,,,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=12&Limit=25&Main=1624682&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=13791&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1624682)




I would like more info from actual ex kenner employees on this subject. If your knowledge on this subject is just coming from store owners and other collectors then it may not be factual!!!


I would enjoy hearing from the actual people who worked on these as well - unfortunately, I doubt there are many people who actually worked on vintage Star Wars items who are part of the collecting community today, much less part of these boards. So basically the chances of speaking to someone who worked on these coins is very very slim. And so we must rely on the knowledge that has been accumulated by the community over the years. And the collectors here on the boards (while not correct %100 of the time) are probably the best source for accurate information you will find. I would suggest that you look over the threads linked above, as you may find them interesting and informative.


I have to assume that you took some offense to my earlier post, judging by your post in reply. I not sure why, but rest assured that I do not consider myself "King of Coins", I was simply trying to add to the informative nature of this site. And I hope you don't take offense to this reply - again, just trying to pass along information helpful to a fellow collector.

Matt

G_Man
04-21-2006, 12:03 PM
Matt, No offense taken. I read the threads and still have questions. It's great that we have a forum like this that allows us to share opinions freely. I wish there was a comprehensive research based book out there that covered this subject more throughly. Thanks, Gary

decipher28
04-21-2006, 01:09 PM
Well this is a very interesting and revelent thread for me at the moment,because if some of you eagle eyed ebayers have noticed i have recently sold a genuine Han Solo Millenium Falcon coin on ebay.

Now while this auction was running i had no end of questions regarding thickness of coin,weight,photo requests etc.

I think with these "thicker coins" which aren't vintage on the market just makes buying selling these coin even more complicated.I wasn't even aware of these coins until the questions came flooding in.

James even had to reassure me because i was getting a little paranoid.

I think some comparison photos of genuine coins and thicker coins is what is needed,followed with some key points to look for.

Leif_G
04-21-2006, 01:10 PM
Hi Gary. I'm hoping a few of the forums more experienced coin people will weigh in on this discussion. Even if there was some uncertainty about the nature of these coins, the auction is misleading in not representing this. It may be a prototype. It may have a vintage era copyright on it. That doesn't make it a vintage era prototype. To positively identify it as a vintage era prototype is misleading.

I'll let the experts debate this. My only concern is that potential bidders are not misinformed or taken advantage of.

James_Gallo
04-21-2006, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE=G_Man]
Unless your an ex Kenner employee,(who was there)how would you know what is truely a vintage coin??




Actually, these were not produced by Kenner but by at least 2 vendors working for Kenner. And *technically* you are correct - I was *not* there and these *could* be a true vintage pieces. (Plural because there are 3 different ones.) However, all the indications point to them being somewhat recent pieces - not vintage.



Ok here is the deal. These coins turned up with a bunch of other ones. When they first hit there was some uncertainity about where they were in the production process. After a short while it was later confirmed that these 3 blank backed coins were NOT vintage and were for the MM coins in the mid 1990s. This information comes directly from someone who worked on the coins.



One collector's opinion on something does not make it a fact! I looked at the coin also and believe this could indeed be vintage!




That is the glory of being part of these forums. The opinion that I expressed is not simply my own, it is also that of other, more experienced coin collectors. (And maybe some of them will chime in here.) In fact, I was also originally of the opinion that they were vintage. However, after posing the question to members here, I got more information on it and now believe (based on various facts) that they are in fact post-vintage.



Their just not, see above comments.



I also believe there are lots of variations and proto's out there that not any one person has all the knowledge to claim to be the so called expert on. I love collecting coins and enjoy the chase but still try to be humble in my opinions on this focus area.





I'm not really sure where this came from - I'm not an expert on POTF Coins, and I will be the first to admit that. However, I have talked to a number of knowledgeable people about these coins, and done research on my own, so I do have *some* knowledge on the subject. When I post information on the subject, I try to relate facts not conjecture. My post was made for the benefit of some of the newer members who perhaps missed the discussion on these coins a few months ago.



I have collected Star Wars coins for 10 years and have been very lucky to get a great deal of extremely rare coins either by luck or being in the right place at the right time. That being said there are a handful of coins that only number in 1-3 known examples. Yes they are that rare and they have a solid history.

Now sure there are a lot of possibile variations but there is a base group that is mostly listed on the archive, and even a few that happen to be missing right now (soon to be added). Most of the odd first shot coins all turned up from one or two finds so there was a specific number of each certain coin in those finds. As such it decreases the number of odd ball coins a bit and limits the numbers known of each of them.

Some of the coins are mistakes like many of the Droids typo's, some were done on purpose by the people making them like the coins that have two fronts.

Regardless there is a base set, but yes almost any coin could turn up in almost any color with is why the history of a coin is so important.

I have a gold Warok Coin which is the only one know as far as I know, that doesn't make it super special just a neat odd ball coin.



I would like more info from actual ex kenner employees on this subject. If your knowledge on this subject is just coming from store owners and other collectors then it may not be factual!!!



See above comments, you just did. This isn't conjecture, or guess work it is facts that came from the people that made the stuff.

If anyone has any further questions about ANY coins feel free to drop me a note.

James G

G_Man
04-21-2006, 01:22 PM
I just felt if you're going to post a statement like "possible fraud" in your post one should have all their facts together. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending this auction. I just don't have all the information in order to accuse someone of "fraud" I asked you if you knew what the coin was, not what it wasn't. You avoided this question.

Leif_G
04-21-2006, 01:33 PM
I just felt if you're going to post a statement like "possible fraud" in your post one should have all their facts together.



Thus the use of the word 'POSSIBLE'. Plus I don't know what the seller's intention is. They may be ignorant of the fact that there is a heap of doubt surrounding these coins in the least case, and I think it would be fair to say there is no doubt for some here that they are not original prototypes.

Here's comments from others taken form this thread:

Previous Coin Thread (http://threads.rebelscum.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1320887&Main=1293039)

"In my opinion, these prototype coins were likely from the modern POTF2 coins. Notice the only prototypes available were the ones that were re-released with POTF2 figures. I owned a Han Solo coin, until I realized the connection. I sold it immediately on ebay since I wanted to focus on only vintage coins."

"... you're referring to the 'blank-back' proto's that have been readily available for the last 2+ years (Han, Chewie, Snowtrooper are most commonly found). Those are considered to be related to the POTF2 line by 99% of us. Sadly you see them on eBay often being sold as true vintage proto's."

G_Man
04-21-2006, 01:43 PM
Points well taken. Love learning about this special focus Thanks!

donnydarko
04-21-2006, 07:54 PM
I too am a POTF coin collector and have had many of the toughest coins at one time or another..I also have seen many rare variants..I have spoken to some preproduction/uncirculated star wars collectors whom are friendly with real former Kenner employees. The only fact in the POTF coin debate is that the so called experts and store owners claiming to be experts still have alot to learn. Motivation to discount the authenticity of some of these variant coins...many of which are not even possessed by these "coin connoiseurs", may stem from a worry that consenting to their authenticity may, in fact, cause a shift in the "supply and demand curve", thus "decreasing" the value of the "rare" coins that they, themselves, are peddling. It seems somewhat obsurd that coin dealers should be revered as the experts, when there are obvious ulterior motivations in play. There is still much undiscovered territory within the POTF coin realm...and denying its existence will not make it vanish.

prufrock
04-21-2006, 09:58 PM
The only fact in the POTF coin debate is that the so called experts and store owners claiming to be experts still have alot to learn. Motivation to discount the authenticity of some of these variant coins...many of which are not even possessed by these "coin connoiseurs", may stem from a worry that consenting to their authenticity may, in fact, cause a shift in the "supply and demand curve", thus "decreasing" the value of the "rare" coins that they, themselves, are peddling. It seems somewhat obsurd that coin dealers should be revered as the experts, when there are obvious ulterior motivations in play.


Are you suggesting here that James is ignorant with regards to this topic, or -- even worse -- that he is deliberately misleading the community to earn more money for himself?

Seems kind of offensive to suggest that without any proof if that's what you are meaning.

Shawn

michael_mensinger
04-21-2006, 10:37 PM
DonnyDarko wrote:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font>
The only fact in the POTF coin debate is that the so called experts and store owners claiming to be experts still have alot to learn.


[/QUOTE]

Please keep in mind that the collectors who brought the information to light regarding these "thick coins" are the same collectors who documented a vast portion of the coin production process and disseminated that information for public consumption. They don't have nearly "as much to learn" as you imply with the above comment. Infact, I would say members of the collecting community have much to learn from them!

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Motivation to discount the authenticity of some of these variant coins...many of which are not even possessed by these "coin connoiseurs", may stem from a worry that consenting to their authenticity may, in fact, cause a shift in the "supply and demand curve", thus "decreasing" the value of the "rare" coins that they, themselves, are peddling.

[/QUOTE]

Knowledge of the collectors you are including in your sweeping generalizations is clearly lacking considering the fact that a number of these collectors are not dealers in any way, shape, or form. I can assure you that concern for collectors is of the utmost importance to them, not some mythical lust to control supply and demand.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font>
It seems somewhat obsurd that coin dealers should be revered as the experts, when there are obvious ulterior motivations in play.

[/QUOTE]

Again, many of the collectors responsible for disseminating information about coin prototypes and the process associated with the development and creation of the coins themselves are not even dealers.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font>
There is still much undiscovered territory within the POTF coin realm...and denying its existence will not make it vanish.

[/QUOTE]

Denying the facts does not make a fake into an authentic vintage prototype either.

-Mike

James_Gallo
04-22-2006, 01:42 AM
I too am a POTF coin collector and have had many of the toughest coins at one time or another..I also have seen many rare variants..I have spoken to some preproduction/uncirculated star wars collectors whom are friendly with real former Kenner employees. The only fact in the POTF coin debate is that the so called experts and store owners claiming to be experts still have alot to learn. Motivation to discount the authenticity of some of these variant coins...many of which are not even possessed by these "coin connoiseurs", may stem from a worry that consenting to their authenticity may, in fact, cause a shift in the "supply and demand curve", thus "decreasing" the value of the "rare" coins that they, themselves, are peddling. It seems somewhat obsurd that coin dealers should be revered as the experts, when there are obvious ulterior motivations in play. There is still much undiscovered territory within the POTF coin realm...and denying its existence will not make it vanish.



Man I haven't heard such a load of bull since decadestoys started selling Red cape Bib fortunas.



I too am a POTF coin collector and have had many of the toughest coins at one time or another..I also have seen many rare variants.


Oh yea which would those be?




I have spoken to some preproduction/uncirculated star wars collectors whom are friendly with real former Kenner employees.


And who are these people. Oh and BTW Kenner did not produce ANY Star Wars coins at ANY time and neither did Hasbro. They were outsourced to two independant companies.




The only fact in the POTF coin debate is that the so called experts and store owners claiming to be experts still have alot to learn.


Who are you talking about. There are very few people that have enough knowledge about coins and the production process to even consider using the word expert with there name. What Store oweners?
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font>

Motivation to discount the authenticity of some of these variant coins


[/QUOTE]
Like what? Who is discounting the authenticity of any coin?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font>
many of which are not even possessed by these "coin connoiseurs", may stem from a worry that consenting to their authenticity may, in fact, cause a shift in the "supply and demand curve", thus "decreasing" the value of the "rare" coins that they, themselves, are peddling.

[/QUOTE]
Actually coins have always been one part of the hobby that has runs in cycles. Sometimes they are hot and sometimes they are not. Only in the most recent years have the general public even become aware of many of the super rare coins.

[qoute] It seems somewhat obsurd that coin dealers should be revered as the experts, when there are obvious ulterior motivations in play.

[/QUOTE]
What dealers and what motives?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font>
There is still much undiscovered territory within the POTF coin realm...and denying its existence will not make it vanish.

[/QUOTE]
That depends are there possible new coins, sure, but the production process is all pretty cut and dry and oh yes factual, something that not any part of your post is.

You make poor generalizations with no facts and no basis for anything.
Thanks for a good laugh and a waste of good web space.

James G

Leif_G
04-22-2006, 01:43 AM
Motivation to discount the authenticity of some of these variant coins...many of which are not even possessed by these "coin connoiseurs", may stem from a worry that consenting to their authenticity may, in fact, cause a shift in the "supply and demand curve", thus "decreasing" the value of the "rare" coins that they, themselves, are peddling.



I know this might be a foreign concept for some, but it is also possible to be motivated by honesty. At the prices these stupid coins go for you'd be an idiot to suggest people like James discount their supposed authenticity for financial reasons. When I see people trying to mount some arguement for these things I think two things, they either got scammed into buying some or they profit from people thinking the coins are vintage prototypes. So don't talk about 'alterior motives'. It's quite obvious you have your own.

G_Man
04-22-2006, 01:59 PM
This has turned into quite a Thread. I am almost sorry that I participated. I will however conclude with some final remarks. My motivation is simply to collect and learn more about this collection focus as well as many other areas of interest. I don't sell or try and profit from collecting. I buy alot on Ebay and online stores. James Gallo helped me recently with a BattleStar Galactic need. Although I posted my need in the wrong section he was kind enough to direct me to his store.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font>
G_Man

You are not allowed to post any non Star Wars posts except in the vintage section. As such your post has been removed.

I have included a copy of it below.
Thanks

James G

PS I do have some Battlestar figures for sale LMK what you need.





Reged: 12/26/03
Loc: PA OT Looking for weapons for vintage Battlestar Gal.
#1597960 - 01/04/06 08:02 PM (68.37.166.21) Edit Reply Quote



PLMK if anyone has any lead on weapons for vintage Battle Star Galactica figs. Thanks

Post Extras: Manage this thread

Geostar



Reged: 05/27/04
Loc: Cascadia Re: OT Looking for weapons for vintage Battlestar Gal. [Re: G_Man]
#1599397 - 01/05/06 03:25 PM (209.79.203.3) Edit Reply Quote



Hi, I might have one for the Cylons (I think). Do you need one of those?

--------------------
The force is with you

Post Extras: Manage this thread

G_Man



Reged: 12/26/03
Loc: PA Re: OT Looking for weapons for vintage Battlestar Gal. [Re: Geostar]
#1601197 - 01/06/06 11:56 AM (68.37.166.21) Edit Reply Quote



Yes, PM sent!




[/QUOTE]

Matt_T
04-22-2006, 08:05 PM
I too am a POTF coin collector and have had many of the toughest coins at one time or another..I also have seen many rare variants..I have spoken to some preproduction/uncirculated star wars collectors whom are friendly with real former Kenner employees. The only fact in the POTF coin debate is that the so called experts and store owners claiming to be experts still have alot to learn. Motivation to discount the authenticity of some of these variant coins...many of which are not even possessed by these "coin connoiseurs", may stem from a worry that consenting to their authenticity may, in fact, cause a shift in the "supply and demand curve", thus "decreasing" the value of the "rare" coins that they, themselves, are peddling. It seems somewhat obsurd that coin dealers should be revered as the experts, when there are obvious ulterior motivations in play. There is still much undiscovered territory within the POTF coin realm...and denying its existence will not make it vanish.



Look, no offense, but this is pretty much a ridiculous post. If you have a coin(s) that you think have not been documented as yet - please share it w/ everyone. If you have specific questions about a piece, please post it. If you have specific allegations about a specific seller or deal, again, please post it. Those who are constructive members of this community enjoy discussion on such topics, but to make generalized accusations, and call into question the ethics of a member or members w/ no supporting facts is way off base.

In regard to the coin that was brought into question - The facts that exist simply point to the conclusion that it is *not* a vintage prototype coin. And there are *no* facts that support it being a truly vintage piece. - There simply is no good argument to go against what the facts show - its that simple.

Leif_G
04-23-2006, 10:59 AM
This has turned into quite a Thread. I am almost sorry that I participated. I will however conclude with some final remarks. My motivation is simply to collect and learn more about this collection focus as well as many other areas of interest. I don't sell or try and profit from collecting. I buy alot on Ebay and online stores. James Gallo helped me recently with a BattleStar Galactic need. Although I posted my need in the wrong section he was kind enough to direct me to his store.




I understood your stated motivation earlier. Perhaps you mistakenly concluded that my response (or James') to Donnydarko was directed to you? I don't know.

In any case, your reference to the James G directing you to his store is to prove what? That store owners would like you to buy from them? Sorry but I think that deserves a big DUH!

Every store owner would like you to buy from them. However, not all store owners would sell you a modern prototype coin as a vintage prototype coin. The topic of this thread isn't 'collectors who are also sellers who also want to sell' (gasp! oh horror!), it's about sellers misrepresenting their goods.

For some reason some sellers seem to think that ignorance is bliss and if they don't know for sure they are misrepresenting something then they are free of responibility. It's not my job to educate sellers. Sellers have a responsibility to educate themselves. If they can't bother to do that and still insist on misrepresenting their items then they are no different than any other scammer trying to walk a thin line ripping people off, breaking the spirit of the law without breaking the letter of the law.

Are you really so determined to appear as though you defending such activity?