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grandpa_yoda
03-06-2004, 12:16 PM
If the clone troopers are clones. Are the
stormtroopers clones also. Nothing is mentioned
in films 3-4-5 that they are or arent
will this be answered in episode 3

kidhuman
03-06-2004, 03:33 PM
I would tend tothink so. The Stormies look like revamped clones, they also might be fromthe imperial academy

Neal
03-08-2004, 01:35 AM
This has been touched on too many times now...but it really comes down to what you want to think. George has said on numerous occassions that the Clone Troopers will evolve into Stormtroopers, meaning that the Stormies are indeed clones.
Still, nothing has been said or shown on film to prove that the Stormtroopers of the OT are clones.
So, believe what you want.

Darth_Mack
03-08-2004, 05:32 PM
Perhaps the stormtroopers are the children of clones and that would explain why each stormtrooper's voice is different in Episodes IV-VI. I haven't checked this, but are all the stormtroopers the same height? If not, maybe that too means they're the children of clones. If the Clone Wars end before or during Episode III, then perhaps no new clones were produced after that.

grandpa_yoda
03-08-2004, 08:51 PM
one curious note
when luke rescues leia she tells him he
is to short to be a stormtrooper. How does
she know what height a stormtrooper should be?

kidhuman
03-08-2004, 11:37 PM
Cause a Stormtrooper should be able to see over the dash board of a TIE Fighter.

GNT
03-09-2004, 12:35 AM
Yep clones will become stormtroopers, the evolution will be seen on screne in the 3rd film as the armour changes.

kidhuman
03-09-2004, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Bounty Hunter GNT:
Yep clones will become stormtroopers, the evolution will be seen on screne in the 3rd film as the armour changes. <font size="2" face="arial">Ithought this was the no spoiler section. images/icons/tongue.gif

GNT
03-09-2004, 01:11 AM
There wasn't really anything spoilerific in it. We've already seen an EP3 clone as well as concept designs which show the evolution into the stormtrooper.

Deak_Starkiller
03-09-2004, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by Darth Mack:
I haven't checked this, but are all the stormtroopers the same height? If not, maybe that too means they're the children of clones. If the Clone Wars end before or during Episode III, then perhaps no new clones were produced after that. <font size="2" face="arial">With a little digging, I think you can pretty much find some pics particularly of stormtroopers standing side-by-side such as during the Falcon's capture in the Death Star I hanger or better yet during the Emperor's arrival in the Death Star II hanger scene. The differences may be slight but noticeable. One could assert that the stormtroopers may be clones that were developed at more frequent intervals than the original clonetroopers, and that perhaps they've inter-mingled over the years to account for the height differences. The voices on the other hand could be accounted for by the selection of other capable hosts other than Jango...perhaps if the original genetic sample was lost (possibly during war) and that genetic flaws occur when you clone from a clone (and idea that was touch upon in a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Up The Long Ladder"). The term was called 'replicant fading'.

Til next report...

JesseJames
03-09-2004, 09:45 AM
Darth Rayne pretty much explained it as I would...

Lucas has said he intended for the Clones to evolve into the Stormtroopers of the classic trilogy. That's why there's a similar look.

However, EU's claimed otherwise for decades now without obstruction and Lucas hasn't ever established a "canon" or factual answer to if Stormtroopers are Clones or unique individuals. He's simply implied what he originally intended... This leaves the debate as to what they are open then, so the viewer is left to decide what he/she wants them to be.

There's strong argument for each side's view on this matter, but neither one is more right than the other. Until Lucas opts to perhaps show (say, through added footage perhaps) in the classic trilogy that Stormies are indeed clones, then it's a debatable topic... Maybe a scene with a stormie putting his helmet on and it's Temura Morrison? I personally doubt Lucas specifically covers this at any point though. I think he'll always just leave it as implied intent rather than "canon" or fact.

There's also a middle-ground argument that there's a mix of Stormtrooper Clones and Individual recruits in the stormtrooper legions. That, if they are proven to at least have SOME clones in their ranks, is likely the stance I'll go with personally as an explanation. The idea that individuals are within the Stormie ranks, possibly training to become officers through field experience and command experience, would cover both bases fairly well and leave EU and (posisble) film explanation alone and able to co-exist together.

Either way though, nobody knows any answer to this one right now... It's all just speculation, opinion/preference, and debate.

grandpa_yoda
03-09-2004, 04:12 PM
If they are indeed clones are they clones of
jango fett or someone else perhaps
anakin skywalker

Neal
03-09-2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by grandpa yoda:
If they are indeed clones are they clones of
jango fett or someone else perhaps
anakin skywalker <font size="2" face="arial">I think they'd be clones of someone else...neither Jango or Anakin.
Also, there could be more than one genetic template for the clones, which would explain different heights for the Stormtroopers.
In Episode II, the Kaminoans said they kept Jango around so they could have fresh samples of his DNA to continue producing clones. With Jango dead, that's no longer an option.
And...I see no chance whatsoever that they are clones of Anakin. I think they'd be a bit more skilled than they are.

grandpa_yoda
03-09-2004, 06:25 PM
If the emperor wanted to top elite fighting
force I would want to clone anakin the problem
i guess with cloning anakin is he has a
high concentration of midchlorans and they
would all be jedis in training

MadPerry
03-09-2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Darth Rayne:
This has been touched on too many times now...but it really comes down to what you want to think. George has said on numerous occassions that the Clone Troopers will evolve into Stormtroopers, meaning that the Stormies are indeed clones.
Still, nothing has been said or shown on film to prove that the Stormtroopers of the OT are clones.
So, believe what you want. <font size="2" face="arial">while i am too lazy to bother with exact quotes or scans of it, i have a 1982 Fantastic magazine with "revenge of the jedi" on the cover and some telling info from lucas on the article within. in it lucas says that the stormtroopers are clones. keep in mind that these statements were made before return of the jedi or prequels were even given a thought. i should show you that mag sometime, neal.

kidhuman
03-09-2004, 09:43 PM
If the emperor cloned Anakin, then more force users would be out there. He couldnt have that.

Neal
03-09-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by MadPerry:
while i am too lazy to bother with exact quotes or scans of it, i have a 1982 Fantastic magazine with "revenge of the jedi" on the cover and some telling info from lucas on the article within. in it lucas says that the stormtroopers are clones. keep in mind that these statements were made before return of the jedi or prequels were even given a thought. i should show you that mag sometime, neal. <font size="2" face="arial">Though I don't have the magazine, I've seen the article online.
I think this article lends more to the fact that Stormie's are clones, because Lucas came up with this a long time ago...not just so he could have the OT fit the Prequels.

blaster_E11
03-10-2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Darth Rayne:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by grandpa yoda:
[qb] With Jango dead, that's no longer an option.
<font size="2" face="arial">i'm sure they had to find some other genetical material
may be it was another bounty hunter, may be it was greedo since stormies are so bad shooters images/icons/wink.gif

GNT
03-11-2004, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by blaster E11 from blastech:
i'm sure they had to find some other genetical material
may be it was another bounty hunter, may be it was greedo since stormies are so bad shooters images/icons/wink.gif <font size="2" face="arial">No it's not another bounty hunter, do you think george is that smart? images/icons/tongue.gif The new source has already been seen and kinda helps explain why the stormtroopers just seem to be pretty crappy at shooting.

Lord_Bobster
03-12-2004, 01:03 AM
-----------YAWN-----------
images/icons/tongue.gif

blaster_E11
03-15-2004, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Bounty Hunter GNT:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="arial">Originally posted by blaster E11 from blastech:
i'm sure they had to find some other genetical material
may be it was another bounty hunter, may be it was greedo since stormies are so bad shooters images/icons/wink.gif <font size="2" face="arial">No it's not another bounty hunter, do you think george is that smart? images/icons/tongue.gif The new source has already been seen and kinda helps explain why the stormtroopers just seem to be pretty crappy at shooting. </font>[/QUOTE]<font size="2" face="arial">u mean jar-jar ? images/icons/shocked.gif

03-29-2004, 04:03 AM
If Stormies do turn out to be clones then that will be reason #1138 to kill George Lucas. images/icons/mad.gif

blaster_E11
03-29-2004, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by Krody Muwil:
If Stormies do turn out to be clones then that will be reason #1138 to kill George Lucas. images/icons/mad.gif <font size="2" face="arial">dont worry stromis are actually ewoks in disguise

Neal
03-29-2004, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by Krody Muwil:
If Stormies do turn out to be clones then that will be reason #1138 to kill George Lucas. images/icons/mad.gif <font size="2" face="arial">Why is that???
I like the idea of Stormtroopers being clones.
George has had this idea for years... now he just has to show us that.

GNT
03-29-2004, 09:14 AM
It's one of the better ideas George has had, it will finally solve the question of where the Stormtroopers came from, another type of connection thats important to the Saga.

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Durge
03-29-2004, 09:22 AM
Not all Stormtrooopers are part of the Kamino clones. Some are recruited.

Neal
03-29-2004, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Durge:
Not all Stormtrooopers are part of the Kamino clones. Some are recruited. <font size="2" face="arial">I'm not saying they're all part of the Kamino clones. Hell, I'd be surprised if any of them were original clones by the time the OT rolls around. That doesn't mean that the Empire didn't take the cloning facilities over and use different templates to create their army.
EU says some of the Stormtroopers are recruits, but we know that George will completely ignore EU when it serves his purpose. I've heard George say that the Stormtroopers are clones. Until I have something else to go by, that's what I'll believe.
Either way... I don't really care that much.

Jagdohh_Fett
03-29-2004, 03:42 PM
I'll accept that they're clones as long as it's explained in Ep. 3, WITHOUT having to alter things in the OT to make it congruent. No CGI to make them the same height, same voice, etc.

03-29-2004, 05:33 PM
The Empire made cloning illegal, even to the Imperials themselves. Only Palpatine was allowed to have clones of anything, which turned out to be himself. Besides, if Stormies are clones, then why are some shorter than others and they have different voices?

EDIT: BTW, to explain that S. troopers are clones in EIII, one of the characters would have to say, "Twenty years from now, in the Original Trilogy, they Imperial stormtroopers are just really old clones of Republic troops that we saw 2 years ago in Attack of the Clones. By the way, my name isn't (so & so), it's (Natalie Portman, Samuel L. Jackson, Christopher Lee, take your pick.)"

^That would really suck, right? Well, that's the only way to do it, without being all blurry and generalized...

[ 03-29-2004, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Krody Muwil ]

Burns
03-29-2004, 05:50 PM
Lets have a flash back here:

Episode 2:Clonetroopers owning tons of droids,the droids had things such as missles and heavy blasters,and even some with shields.
Clonetroopers win the battle easily.

Episode 6:Stormtroopers losing the Battle of Endor against a bunch of teddy bears with sticks,logs,and rocks.


Episode 4:Stormtroopers missing from across a small room.

Im very concerned at how good George made the clones in Episode 2,it just doesn't add up to how they could suck so horribly,the only way to clear this off my mind is to explain in some way that humans were recruited,or the stormies are from a lousy source.


heres another discrupency:

Jango Fett:Dies by the most ****** Jedi ever.

Boba Fett:Flys into the sarlacc pit.

images/icons/rolleyes.gif

03-29-2004, 06:51 PM
The Stormtroopers are way too different from one another: Height,voice,persona. They couldn't be clones.

Cthulhu522
03-29-2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by kidhuman:
Cause a Stormtrooper should be able to see over the dash board of a TIE Fighter. <font size="2" face="arial">Good call! LOL

Cthulhu522
03-29-2004, 07:45 PM
Maybe they have different heights, voices, and such because he couldn't digitally create an army of them 27 years ago and had to use real actors. To me, what Lucas says is the way it is. If he says they are clones, they are clones. Just my opinion though.

[ 03-29-2004, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Cthulhu522 ]

Neal
03-29-2004, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Jedimaster A'Sharad Hett:
The Stormtroopers are way too different from one another: Height,voice,persona. They couldn't be clones. <font size="2" face="arial">What's to say there aren't different sources for the clones? That would explain the different heights and voices.

GNT
03-29-2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Jedimaster A'Sharad Hett:
The Stormtroopers are way too different from one another: Height,voice,persona. They couldn't be clones. <font size="2" face="arial">Once Jango died they resorted to using another source which has already been explained on the official website. The new clone will be a cross between Bodie Taylor and Temuera Morrison (done by CGI) which to me sounds like they've cloned an existing clone and maybe crossed it with someone else. Anyway with the new source of clone and old Morrison clones existing at the same time this is meant to explain the differences on film.

Deak_Starkiller
03-30-2004, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Darth Rayne:
What's to say there aren't different sources for the clones? That would explain the different heights and voices. <font size="2" face="arial">In a way, that defeats the original purpose of using a single genetic source to endow the clones with identical abilities. There may indeed be more than one genetic source used for the stormtroopers to account for the differences, they just didn't use the good ones to make good shooters of them. images/icons/grin.gif

Til next report...

[ 03-30-2004, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: Arknew ]

Neal
03-30-2004, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Arknew:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="arial">Originally posted by Darth Rayne:
What's to say there aren't different sources for the clones? That would explain the different heights and voices. <font size="2" face="arial">In a way, that defeats the original purpose of using a single genetic source to endow the clones with identical abilities. There may indeed be more than one genetic source used for the stormtroopers to account for the differences, they just didn't use the good ones to make good shooters of them. images/icons/grin.gif

Til next report... </font>[/QUOTE]<font size="2" face="arial">I have to agree with you there.
Whereas the Clone Troopers were well-trained, fighting machines, the Stormtroopers are only effective due to their overwhelming numbers.
And even then, they're not that impressive.

bobaphat28
03-30-2004, 11:30 AM
I would agree that some of the stormtroopers are clones, and that they may come from varied gene pools. I also would say that there are regular recruits as well like we see in EU. You dont see clones of regular imperial officers in the OT so I would assume that some of the stormtroopers are indeed indivuals.I am sure when the Empire becomes pretty vast that it must enlist others to keep up with the demand of more troops. The cloning process while accelarated seems to have drawbacks that it couldnt produce them fast enough.

tmthor
04-18-2004, 03:30 AM
Personaly I think the Stormtroopers of the OT are Recruted soldiers. Remember the clones had accelarated growth so they would be dead by the OT. Also in the original novel Biggs tells Luke he was going to jump ship befor being DRAFTED (I Believe that was the word that was used) from the accademy to the Ranks of the Empire.

Deak_Starkiller
04-18-2004, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by tmthor:
Also in the original novel Biggs tells Luke he was going to jump ship befor being DRAFTED (I Believe that was the word that was used) from the accademy to the Ranks of the Empire. <font size="2" face="arial">It wouldn't necessarily mean Biggs would have been recruited as a stormtrooper within the Empire.

Also, being a graduate from the Academy doesn't necessarily mean that you are part of the Empire. To me, the Academy is more like a candidate school for those who have a desire to obtain specialized skills such as piloting, leadership, military operations and so forth. It stands to reason that there are many different other private and public organizations requiring such skills that don't necessarily oppose the Empire that will hire graduates possessing such skills.

Til next report...

Neal
04-18-2004, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by tmthor:
Personaly I think the Stormtroopers of the OT are Recruted soldiers. Remember the clones had accelarated growth so they would be dead by the OT. <font size="2" face="arial">Yes, the clones from AOTC would most likely be dead from either battle or accelerated growth by the time of the OT. But... that's the great thing about cloning... you can always make more. I'm guessing the Empire continued to produce clones to bolster their armies for a long time after the events of AOTC.

JesseJames
04-18-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by tmthor:
Personaly I think the Stormtroopers of the OT are Recruted soldiers. Remember the clones had accelarated growth so they would be dead by the OT. Also in the original novel Biggs tells Luke he was going to jump ship befor being DRAFTED (I Believe that was the word that was used) from the accademy to the Ranks of the Empire. <font size="2" face="arial">I agree with this until I see otherwise on-screen, but even if/when it were to be conclusively shown in the original trilogy that the Stormtroopers are NOT individuals but are clones, there's still room to fudge around that there are individuals among them.

Mixing in officers perhaps, or specialized units for instance. Maybe it's part of some/certain officer's training to don the armor in combat from time to time? It may help to further explain the necessity of the shoulder pauldron for stormtroopers in the field or urban settings. Sometimes then officers (lower level ones) or certain non-coms have the armor on, and at other times they don't, such as on Endor.

Either way, I think it's possible to explain it away as there being individuals mixed in there at the very least.

Nonetheless, I am holding that the Clones are done with till I see otherwise in a canon fashion. I like it slightly better that way for EU's sake that I enjoy... It has lots of solid backing as well, whereas the Clones concept is only backed by Lucas's interviews where he claims it was always his intent. I debate that claim, and think it's more a whim of his personally... He's sort of known for that.

Ultimately, I think Lucas will leave the question ambiguous simply because he's known for not answering everything in specific detail. I could see him totally glossing this over, and just letting you either assume they're all Clones, or follow the past EU's claims they're not Clones.

Jediknight760071
04-18-2004, 10:40 PM
Although in "I,Jedi", Corran says something around page 535 or 536 that the Empire "Didn't Mint enough of them".


I still think they were mostly clones until the DS1 blew, but after that there was a boost in mixed humanoid ranks.

04-21-2004, 08:16 PM
This thread got me thinking: If the stormtroopers are indeed clones, as evidence tends to imply, and the kaminoans kept Jango Fett around 'for fresh DNA samples', and Jango Fett is dead, they would need a new source for cloning. This much we have already established.

Not only could new (and different) donors account for differences in stormtrooper height, but also stormtrooper skill. As popular lore indicates, Jango Fett (and his clone son, Boba Fett) was/were the most fearsome warrior in the galaxy at the time.

Now note that as the classic trilogy progresses, the aim of stormtroopers goes from bad to worse--in the initial scene they mop the floor with the Alderaanian Guard. However, they are slightly worse when they encounter princess leia, only one gets a hit. Later, on the Deathstar, stormtroopers can't hit ANYBODY, and so forth until Endor, when they get beaten up by little teddy bears.

All of this could be explained by using progressively poorer techniques by the cloners--bad DNA samples, less perfect source specimens.

Just got me going on that one. What do you think? images/icons/grin.gif

04-21-2004, 08:24 PM
Another snip of evidence for officer mixing with 'clones', if you watch the "Clone Wars" cartoon by Cartoon Network (which you can reasonably argue as canon), you see Obi Wan spend a significant amount of time wearing clone armor.

If the Republic made this practice with clones, it stands to reason the Empire would do so with Stormtroopers. Note, however, that in no instance during the movies is ANY stormtrooper referred to by name rather than code number.

Furthermore, in the Clone Wars cartoon, there are clones of different ability (Obi Wan takes command of an elite squad, the best of the best).
The same happens in the origial trilogy with the Royal Guard (the dudes in red that follow the Emperor) are supposedly 'highly trained, elite of the elite stormtroopers'. Interestingly, clone commanders also wear red. Hmm.


IF mixing occured, I doubt it actually happened in the movies. I think it's more likely either different donor DNA, or individual phenotypic differences, which are adequate to explain height AND skill.

grandpa_yoda
04-22-2004, 10:51 AM
when leia tell luke that he is to short to be
a stormtrooper it leads one to believe that they are all a certain height and therefore clonable