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radfury
06-30-2003, 09:07 PM
other than the fact of jar jar and the whole midichlorian thing? seriously, i was watching the movie the other night and just dont understand it. i love the movie. this is a simple question and dont want it to turn into a thread to flame over why you didnt like the movie. plus if you didnt like it, how would you have told the opening story to the starwars saga?

Darth_Mack
06-30-2003, 09:19 PM
Didn't mind the midi-chlorian thing, but I disliked Jar Jar (no surprise), the Immaculate Conception of Anakin, the plethora of cutesy/cartoony aliens, and the lack of funny dialog.

Neal
06-30-2003, 09:20 PM
I love it too.
Yes, it's my least favorite of the 5 Star Wars films, but that doesn't mean I don't like it.
It has its problems, just like all of the movies do, but hey...it's freakin' Star Wars!
I love it for that fact alone! images/icons/grin.gif

radfury
06-30-2003, 09:35 PM
i actually didnt like the midichlorian thing at first. but the more i thought about it the more i was like "man it does make the force a bigger thing that it was before". most like it as the spiritual thing instead of the physical part. but it makes the force that much more. it something you are born with, like a chosen one; but in this case many. thats all george was trying to get across with the midichlorians i honestly believe. now the whole thing about the lack of humor; i will in a way agree. jar jar was intended to be that humor. but a lot just found him annoying (i believe because they dont understand what he's saying). i thought it would have been good to see more jokes between obi-wan and qui-gonn but all you really heard was "you were right about one thing master....the negotiations were short" plus in a way the battle droids were a bit of comic relief, if you ask me they were the kinda enemy that were no real threat to anyone. but i found it to be a good story and i felt that it did do a good job of opening the starwars saga up. some say they would have prefered anakin already be obi wans apprentice, but then the same people would complain about not knowing where anakin came from and what made him turn bad, etc. know what i mean?

ObiWans_No1_Fan
06-30-2003, 09:35 PM
Yeah . . . What Darth Rayne said. images/icons/grin.gif

radfury
06-30-2003, 09:51 PM
something else im wanting someone to say is that TPM messed up the trilogy and messed up the continuity. that it doesnt make sense because it contradicts the OT. i just want them to give me one example of this. one that can hold water. i always hear stuff like this and it baffles me, i dont see how they can say that it doesnt fit in with the other movies, etc. maybe ive missed something big time. images/icons/confused.gif

Darth_Mack
07-01-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
something else im wanting someone to say is that TPM messed up the trilogy and messed up the continuity. that it doesnt make sense because it contradicts the OT.

How did it mess up the continuity?

i just want them to give me one example of this.

Who's "them"?

one that can hold water. i always hear stuff like this and it baffles me, i dont see how they can say that it doesnt fit in with the other movies, etc. maybe ive missed something big time. images/icons/confused.gif <font size="2" face="arial">Are you saying it messed up the OT or are you saying other people say it messed up the OT?

radfury
07-01-2003, 09:02 PM
them as in anyone on these boards. so many times ive read of how TPM messed up the OT. i normally didnt comment because i stay away from those kinda heated debates. people can get kinda crazy over this stuff. anyway what i meant was, anyone who thinks that the prequel (mainly TPM) contradicts the OT, could it be explained to me how? i hear this all to often and have yet to hear something besides, "well it just does". just wanna know thats all. images/icons/confused.gif

GNT
07-02-2003, 03:19 AM
I don't mind the film but:

</font> <font size="2" face="arial">Too much time spent on Tatooine, its dull and boring.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">Theres nothing of interest in the film that would keep anyone interested in the next 5 films.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">Not much Character development.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">More Jar Jar Scenes that weren't needed ans should be cut or changed for future rereleases, I don't mind him but he adds nothing to the story.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">The end battle between Maul,Anakin and Obi-Wan should have been longer, this fight scene was in the prime of the jedi and it lasted what 5 minutes images/icons/rolleyes.gif</font> <font size="2" face="arial">No emotional characters (Gungans in the ground battle so that we feel sorry for them)</font> <font size="2" face="arial">Yoda, Totally suntanned and according to George maybe fixed in a future release, hopefully.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">Should have seen more of the Jedi in the temple, seen them practicing like in a scene where say Mace Windu is teaching some Jedi Knights Aayla Secura, Pablo Jill, Coleman Trebor and then saying "You never know when you might need these skills in a battle..." forshadowing events to come.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">The plot of the film really doesn't add anything to the overall 6 part story, to an extent it does but not not much.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">We should have seen an order put in for an army of clones.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">To much CGI, not enough "real stuff".</font> <font size="2" face="arial">More characters that may appear in the OT should have appeared.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">Jabba the hutt...whats up with his appearance?</font> <font size="2" face="arial">Dooku making an apperance at Qui-Gons funeral then leaving mad might be a cool scene to not only tie him into it but to tie him into the 2nd and 3rd movies.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">Should have been at least a couple of OT locations in the film.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">More of evil Palpatine working his evil.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">Crappy dialogue, boy it was corney in some scenes, it should have been proof read by someone not under Georges control.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">To many un-needed scenes.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">Not really enough character change eg Seem hopeless in the beginning and going to give up and in the end destroying the whole empire or whatever.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">Jake Lloyd!</font> <font size="2" face="arial">More of the council discussing why they should let Anakin be a Jedi.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">No cool characters to follow and get attached to.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">More of Darth Maul, on his way to tatooine or practicing his skills on Battle droids or probes.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">I found some of the characters to be very rude in EP1</font> <font size="2" face="arial">I might have said it already but the characters are dull and boring.</font> <font size="2" face="arial">More action needed.</font><font size="2" face="arial">

Imperialist14
07-02-2003, 03:32 AM
The worst of the five SW Movies, but still a solid three stars!!!

I enjoyed the movie. But the truth is I would have enjoyed it if Lucas had used cardboard for the ships - Heck it was the return of Star Wars!

I really liked Padme's colorful outfits and I thought the battle scenes were well done - but could have been a little longer. The final duel was terrific.

If definitely would have been a lot better with more Maul and less Jar Jar, but it is still an excellent work of science fiction.

radfury
07-02-2003, 01:37 PM
i understand what you are saying about the maul thing. i thought to myself that it would had been better had he been given more dialogue and screen time. but when you think about it in the end the only reasone he wasnt given those two things is because this would be the first time the sith had shown there faces in a thousand years. they were plotting against he jedi. the didnt want to make there presence known to everyone so that all the jedi in the universe would be on there tails. know what i mean?

Imperialist14
07-02-2003, 03:24 PM
I thing GL was trying to please the kiddies and it backfired!

Darth_Mack
07-02-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by imperialist14:
The worst of the five SW Movies, but still a solid three stars!!!<font size="2" face="arial">3 stars--really? images/icons/shocked.gif I give it 1 1/2, maybe 2.

gMt
07-02-2003, 06:31 PM
Funny this should come up, as I was watching Lucas on BIOGRAPHY the other night. Something occurred to me: people generally acknowledge ANH and ESB as the best SW movies, followed by AOTC, ROTJ and TPM. I loved AOTC, but have come to almost dislike TPM and ROTJ. Both of those movies have been criticized for having lots of stupid, juvenile humor and lots of kiddie-friendly characters and scenes. If you compare ROTJ to ESB, the tone of the movies is so vastly different, ESB being dark and serious and ROTJ being much lighter and, at times, silly and ridiculous. What happened between those two movies that changed his perspective on the whole storyline?

HE HAD KIDS.

It was an epiphany when I put it all together. Once he became a parent, his movies made a turn to more kid-friendly humor and plotlines. And now that his kids are growing up into adults, the movies are growing darker and more mature. Coincidence? I think not.

Imperialist14
07-02-2003, 06:42 PM
Interesting opinion Grand Matt but I do have to take exception to one comment. ROTJ rocked!!! The best SW Movie ever!!! It had action, love, suspense, Biker Scouts, Jabba, the Emperor and Leia in a bikini! images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif

What more could you ask for! And the Ewoks were not nearly as annoying as Jar Jar. I kinda liked them. Reminded me of tiny Chewbaccas. Wonder if they are cousins?

gMt
07-02-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by imperialist14:
ROTJ rocked!!! The best SW Movie ever!!! It had action, love, suspense, Biker Scouts, Jabba, the Emperor and Leia in a bikini! images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif

What more could you ask for! And the Ewoks were not nearly as annoying as Jar Jar. I kinda liked them. Reminded me of tiny Chewbaccas. Wonder if they are cousins? <font size="2" face="arial">Don't get me wrong, imperialist14; there are some things in ROTJ that are great. Speederbikes, the skiff battle, the Emperor, the DS II blowing up, Leia as a slave (growl growl)--all good stuff. ROTJ the best SW movie ever? I think you'd get a lot of disagreement over that around here, though.

I don't think anyone can argue that the tone in ROTJ isn't vastly different than ESB. It also seems that, for the most part, the acting and dialogue in ROTJ just wasn't on par with its predecessor.

Funny too that you bring up the Ewoks. I agree that they are nowhere near as annoying as Jar Jar (is anything?!), but you can see the obvious kid-friendly slant to their origin. And, in a way, they are cousins to Wookiees--early in the development of ROTJ, Endor was originally supposed to be a planet of Wookiees, not ewoks. Now THAT would have rocked. Watching a bunch or Wookiees kick the hell out of the Imperial troops? Hell yeah.

Imperialist14
07-02-2003, 07:26 PM
Grand Matt ,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. We can respectfully agree to disagree about the ranking of SW Movies.

No retaliation threads or need to call you out are necessary! May the Force be with us!

gMt
07-02-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by imperialist14:
Grand Matt ,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. We can respectfully agree to disagree about the ranking of SW Movies.

No retaliation threads or need to call you out are necessary! May the Force be with us! <font size="2" face="arial">Cheers, imperialist14. You make good points and I appreciate your consideration of my theory. Here's to Episode III.

radfury
07-03-2003, 03:54 PM
well, the thing about jake lloyd i have to disagree with. while at times he wasnt the best actor he pulled off a good anakin as a child. did you see the other potentials for anakin on the dvd? now they would have been ten times worse. you also have to think of the fact of how hard it is to get a child to sit still and do an acting job right, not to mention pronounciation, etc. i disagree also with the dooku at qui-gonns ceromony. he was a rebel jedi, he left the order. i dont think he would just want to show his face at any moment to the group he had left behind. i also believe the point of having less OT locations is because he wanted to explore the galaxy a bit more. i also thought there was quite a good bit of action for a starwars movie in TPM. im not here to disagree with you, but i just think it should be looked at as a perspective through the directors eyes. ya know, what he wanted to get across witht the characters and scenes and etc.

toyguy
07-04-2003, 11:52 AM
Well I'll put in my two cents. To watch TPM strictly as a Sci-Fi movie on its own, I think it was probably the best in 10 or 15 years. I mean what else did we get in terms of Sci-Fi films after ROTJ; The Last Starfighter, a series of Star Trek movies, ID4, Starshiptroopers, and Wing Commander that made it just before TPM. (BTW, I didn't include Matrix because of no aliens, no starships, so not in the same category). Now I'm not saying any of the above movies are bad, but I definitely enjoyed TPM much more. On its own its quite an epic of a Sci-fi tale. There were interesting alien worlds, a great battle in space and on land, and the good vs evil theme (Jedi/Sith).

Now of course, its next to impossible to view TPM as an entity unto itself. We waited 16 years for the next SW movie, so people have many different kinds of expectations that cannot possibly be all met by the GL. Also over time, some of us put the OT experience on such a high (perhaps artificially high) pedestal that no movie hence forth will ever come close to it.

So TPM may not be the best SW experience for some people, but it certainly is a great Sci-Fi experience in general. Some one mentioned that TPM doesn't make keep you wanting to know more, but perhaps thats why it stands on its own very well as a complete story. Try to imagine (if its at all possible), that there was no OT and no expectation for the remaining prequels. TPM is a good story. It gives you a crisis at the beginning (blockade), followed by good rising action (first fighting battledroids then the Maul encouter at Tatooine), and then the resolution (final battle, good triumph over evil). There is sacrifice & heroics, we got to see the hi-tech metropolis of Coruscant, and a "feel-good" ending.

So instead of comparing TPM with other SW movies, I'd say compare it with other contemporary sci-fi's and you might enjoy it more.

Did TPM have problems, yes! But did the other SW movie have elements I'd rather do without, yes! This is just me talking, but anytime a Sci-Fi movie takes us away from the hi-tech futuristic environment for very long, it really bothers me. Eg.
- ANH: not bad, the desert scenes are long but GL keep reminding us we in an other universe every now and then with: landspeeder, aliens, Sandcrawler. By the time we reach Mos Eisley I'm OK with the rest of the movie.
- ESB: the Dagobah swamp scenes were way too long for me. Its basically a swamp not unlike what we have on Earth, with snakes and lizards even. Yoda's the only alien, and the X-Wing and R2 are the only hi-tech elements.
-ROTJ: again the Endor scenes upto the final battle was too long. It's the Redwoods of California for crying out loud. At least we got the speederbike chase scene, agan GL tries to remind us we're in the SW universe. Now I don't dislike the Ewoks for what they are, its just that they're not convincing aliens like Chewie is. Maybe they have to make many costumes so Ewoks are more sloppily put together, I don't know. When Chewie howls, I really believe him to be real.
- AOTC: just like TPM, I'm not crazy about the Naboo scenes. It just looks like Europe, what's the big deal. Especially the "Sound of Music scene". We get a few technology and alien elements at Naboo, but not enough to convince me that I'm looking at an alien world.

But.....does that mean I have a problem with these movies overall?? No!! The Death Star evironment and space battle more than compensated for ANH. Ditto for the rebel base battle and Bespin scenes which were great sci-fi locations in ESB. The Death Star II scenes, Star Destroyer interior scenes, Moncal cruiser interior scenes, light saber and space battles more than made up for the mediocre elements in ROTJ. For AOTC, sure the Naboo and Tatooine is a bit less spectacular; but the Geonosis battle, the many more Coruscant scenes, and Kamino!! Now that's what sci-fi is all about for me. Show me worlds that can only dreamt of otherwise.

So is TPM that same way. For me yes, it had a few things that I didn't care for, but overall a great sci-fi movie!!

Sorry about the long-winded reply, I was typing during lunch break so I have a lot to say images/icons/smile.gif

radfury
07-04-2003, 01:19 PM
another thing that i can quite put my finger on is; what is it that makes TPM so different? when you say it stands out, thats un-deniable. it does and i dont know why. i mean some say they dont consider it part of the star wars saga........ images/icons/rolleyes.gif lets be honest, thats ignorance. whether its liked it or not it is episode 1 the beginning story of the starwars saga. i always felt that it fell a bit short maybe because of the serious tone and time; with the sith trying to rise back into the light and with most of the humor coming from jar jar was a little different (having one character carry all the humor in the movie). i dont have a problem with jar jar, he did indeed have a purpose in the PT; to start the vote for the clone army. i mean its main purpose was to re/introduce the characters to the audience. it showed us things talked about in the previous movies. the council,the senate, padme,anakin, etc. AOTC showed us other things too. i have come to believe a lot of the reason it didnt hold over well with some people is because there was no luke, leia, han and chewie. hmm? i dont know; what do you all think?

toyguy
07-04-2003, 02:19 PM
Obi-1, I think you hit the nail on the head with your last statement there. I didn't say it outright in my last (long) reply, but in terms of expectation, people want Luke, Han, and Leia. But there's no more story to tell there, the Emperor and the Empire is defeated (no matter what is said in EU). So the only thing to tell is what happened in the beginning.

I totally agree that TPM did a great job of re-introducing us back into the SW universe. I always wondered about how the Jedi order was like in its more glorious days. And I certainly didn't hide my excitement to finally see Coruscant, an advanced world in the SW universe. If you think about it, in OT the only somewhat advanced world we saw was Bespin. The rests were just outposts, remote bases, and space stations. And of course, the whole point of the prequel is to tell Anakin's story, so we have to start from the very beginning.

I think a lot of people enjoyed TPM in various degrees, but those that complain about it got the spot-light. Once there seems to be a "concensus" that TPM's no good, those who liked it either had a change of mind or kept quiet about it. Again, this is just my guess, I'm not making any claims here.

GNT
07-04-2003, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
i disagree also with the dooku at qui-gonns ceromony. he was a rebel jedi, he left the order<font size="2" face="arial">He left the order just after Qui-Gon died so it would make perfect sense to see him walk out and never be seen for another 10 years.

deluca
07-04-2003, 07:47 PM
I only have a few problems with TPM

1. Anakin making C-3PO. It really limits the droids background. I would have preferred R2 and C-3PO starting out together.

2. Anakin being so young. I wish he was more the age of Luke in the orignal series, but then again it would have made the comparision to close to many people.

3. The corny dialoge in some scenes.

4. The gungans, I did not really care for them.

5. Too many Aliens. I liked the Idea of more humans than aliens like in SW and ESB.

radfury
07-04-2003, 11:24 PM
o my bad about dooku leaving the order after qui- gons death. i forgot about that. but it still just wouldnt be something that youd want to see. you have to think about it, these are a set of movies that make one larger movie, but they have to be able to carry there own weight too. so in other words i think that it'd be best if he was left out of that scene because it would point fingers in a way towards the next movie. we all know that GL tries to keep things under wrap the best he can. if any of that makes any sense? images/icons/tongue.gif images/icons/rolleyes.gif next off the reason i believe that GL had anakin be the maker of 3po was to keep the feeling that starwars is in fact about the skywalker family and there friends. yes starwars has so much more to it and is so much more bigger than the skywalkers. but the movies are about the skywalker family and friends. some have said that anakin being the maker makes the starwars universe seem smaller. but its that simple point that GL has tried to keep this feeling of friends and family strong in these movies. i think he wants things to be in a way...well, awkward. i.e. luke, owen and beru coming into ownership of the same droid that they had "owned" years before, and it just happening to be the same droid that lukes father built who now happens to be the dark lord of the sith. see??? kinda weird when you think about it like that huh? ill give it to you also about some of the dialogue being somewhat corny. it almost felt as if some of the words he tried to have the actors use very elegant words. if you catch my drift? i mean i know that the old republic's time was an elegant time and yada yada; but the dialogue could have been toned down to that also. images/icons/tongue.gif now the last thing with there being more aliens than humans. i believe also the only reason that was done was to show that the universe is so big and there are so many creatures and species. they can come to all these different worlds to find homes and so on. thats why especially coruscant you found so many different alien races. catch my flow?

[ 07-07-2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: ob-1kenobi ]

Obi_Robz
07-05-2003, 05:59 PM
I actually enjoyed it. Judged by the standards of what it really is – a kid’s movie – it’s not too bad. It's an OK Star Wars film.

[ 07-05-2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Obi-Robz ]

radfury
07-06-2003, 01:41 PM
what is it that makes it a kids movie to you? i dont feel its a kids movie, but maybe its because a kid is the main character. hmm? thats the purpose of this thread is for me to find out why people didnt like it? i want to know what peoples different views are (except for the midichlorians and jar jar like i said before)? its a question thats burned in my mind for some time. so keep em' coming! plus maybe to open up some eyes to the fact that it was a good movie and it did explain things and wasnt just a start to the starwars saga.

07-06-2003, 02:41 PM
Well maybe SOME of u have actually started to REALIZE that LUCAS is all about MONEY.....hes the first person to hire an agency to make sure people didnt get into theaters for free when TPM came out(did in my area anyway) he charges for hyperspace.(a super slow webcam).... the movies are ALWAYS PG...which = KIDDIE MOVIE......IMAGINE how good episode 3 would be if it were PG-13 or R....WOW......BUT NOO....lucas is greedy.......Hell there were scenes in the AOTC trailers that were NOT in the movie....(jango/obi-wan trailer) ..CUT cause of PG rating........oh well....he makes money ONLY BECAUSE OF WHAT HE DID IN THE 70s 80s...THATS IT...if this series came out without 4-5-6 ...they would FLOP....


sorry..just speakin my mind on what ive seen..

egghead118
07-07-2003, 01:07 AM
ah, let me count the ways

1) stupid ending (kiddie anakin accidentally destroys the control ship and saves the day)

2) gungans are goofy and unbelievable.

3) battle sequence is ridiculous

4) flat characters

5) flat acting

last, but not least: GL CAN NEITHER WRITE NOR DIRECT... DEFLATE YOUR EGO GEORGE, AND DELEGATE POWER TO THOSE WHO CAN!!!!!!!

radfury
07-07-2003, 10:25 AM
double post...

[ 07-07-2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: ob-1kenobi ]

radfury
07-07-2003, 10:26 AM
i liked the ending. what was wrong with it? GL wanted to go with a happy ending,because in the rest of the films they arent so happy. thats another thing that i think gave it a different feel was that it wasnt as dark as the rest of the films and thats not a bad thing; it shows the progression of that galaxy gradually decline and eventually become run by one man. the gungans are goofy yes, but there are so many thousands of races and species in the starwars universe; so is it so incredibly unbelievable that a race be nothing but goofy people/animals? plus boss nass and captain tarpals werent goofy. they looked goofy, but they didnt have a real silly personality. oh and about the battle sequence being rediculous; what was so rediculous about them? i especially liked the final battle and every aspect of it. like said earlier by toy guy, a lot of people liked the movie, but those who didnt were the only ones that were really heard and they got the spotlight, therefore changing the opinions of those who did like it to be as negative as they are today. i.e. i love TPM when i saw it in the theaters both times, then when i started reading and hearing things my opinion started to sway the other way; so one day i sat down and watched to movie to judge for myself if it was or was not a good movie. when watching the movie i held all the things in mind of what people said they hated so much about the film and as my opinion was in the beginning i loved it! people say the acting was very poor, but it really wasnt that bad. you have to think about it, the only two people that i think might have had a proble were natalie portman and jake lloyd. you have to think of pormans character, GL wanted her to be able to be strong even though she was so young and thats why she came off like this wannabe biker chick. images/icons/tongue.gif she can act, if youve ever seen her in other movies you'd know she can act. jake lloyd now is a different story, i found that he can act, but you put a 9(i believe he was at the time) year old boy and put him in a movie with the dialogue of a rocket scientist (well almost images/icons/rolleyes.gif )and it would be hard to get him to act the exact way you wanted. people from the set and the crew said that it was a task to get him to sit still and that it was difficult to get him to do his lines correctly or to even remember them at all.

radfury
07-07-2003, 10:28 AM
triple post... images/icons/blush.gif

[ 07-07-2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: ob-1kenobi ]

07-07-2003, 11:20 AM
Thats my point...WHY WHY have all those kiddie scenes RIGHT INTHE MIDDLE OF A HUGE WAR......even in AOTC in the arena.....omg r2-d2 and c3po..........WHY WHY WHY.....adds NOTHING to the REAL story...........but like i said all about money and the kiddies hehehe

radfury
07-07-2003, 03:19 PM
whoa now guy. chill out just a bit. first off, werent you a kid at one time that watched starwars? or maybe you came into it later, i dunno. but when you saw scenes like r2 and the jawas, or the way yoda acted on dagobah the first time you saw him or the ewoks and the heroes interacting were they all not "kiddie" too. there are so many "kiddie" moments in these movies. when you were a child did you not find those kinda things funny? GL tries to keep these movies at a level for all ages. he doesnt target a certain crowd, they are for everyone. now to answer you question about r2 and 3po in the middle of the war, its for comic relief. thats what those characters are for. its not all about the money either, GL didnt have to make these movies but it was something he'd been asked to do many times and was something he wanted to see done. think about the 8 year old watching the movie and the 80 year old watching the movie. the movies arent just for you or other people your age. they are for everyone. people look at these movies like they are some form of high art, when its the story that intrigues us all (or a lot of us) of the a family and they're friends, good and evil, and lots of humor. lighten up a little bit, your dogging something that you had to of fallin in love with years ago. images/icons/smile.gif

07-07-2003, 05:41 PM
Yes i did LOVE star wars .i saw it in the 70s in the theater.......Its just ive grown up...ans star wars hasnt.........oh well....ill still go see the last one.....I was just hopeing that AOTC and the last one would be alot more grown-up since MOST fans that saw it in the theatre have grown up..

radfury
07-07-2003, 07:59 PM
thats another reason i believe TPM didnt hold over well with some, they grew up. thats a good thing, but its also good to be young at heart. images/icons/smile.gif

*thougtful moments* lol! images/icons/smile.gif images/icons/wink.gif images/icons/tongue.gif

Rik
07-08-2003, 02:21 PM
I loved TPM.
Although I'd change two things.
1. Jar Jar and the Gungans. Why were they even there? They could've just as well made the whole Gungan thing with a race that already existed from the OT and got rid of the crappy comedy that didn't work. Plus the language is just ****e and sounds like something a 5 year old would say. images/icons/rolleyes.gif
2. Jake Lloyd. Bad put-on acting and hardly any emotion but hyper displayed.
Apart from that though, I loved it.

radfury
07-08-2003, 09:12 PM
the reason why they didnt use an already existing race id say would be because part of the prequel trilogy is to show that there are far more aliens and species than we saw in the OT. so that was just part of expanding the unverse. plus if you think about it all the other aliens have homeworlds and george wanted to create a new type of creatures that could live on this world to help progress the story line. the gungans joined together with the rest of the naboo inhabitants to fight off the trade federation. the had the "grand army" and it was because of them that the better part of the droids were led away from the city. now about the whole jake lloyd thing, we already tuched on that, he was a little boy. give him a bit of a break. images/icons/frown.gif

Carnor_Jax
07-08-2003, 10:56 PM
#1 You have to realize...it's going back in time and it's totally different trilogy.

#2 It's going to be slow because were used to seeing the War between the Rebels & The Empire.

I thought it was pretty cool!!!!

Too bad Lucas didn't make parts 7-9 first... images/icons/frown.gif

radfury
07-09-2003, 01:23 PM
yea, thats a good point too. it is to bad 7-9 werent made either, and its too bad they wont at all. but there is really no story there anyway. the prequel trilogy isnt all that slow, it is at times when its setting things up, as it was in the OT, but then again all movies can be like that at times.

radfury
07-10-2003, 01:36 PM
obi wan was a jedi wasnt he? even though he was a jedi's apprentice and yet to be jedi knight i thought he still was considered a jedi?

Jedimon2001
07-11-2003, 12:42 AM
I don't find nothing wrong with TPM. I fast forward the pod race because it's too long. The concept of how they found Anakin was just thrown in there to let us know how well the force was with Anakin. I don't mind the midichlorian part, it's just useless info nobody cares about. Like glass is made from sand.

To me though, it was like this trilogy is in reverse. TPM was a lot like ROTJ. I thought the CGI fight scenes was a bit too much. At first I didn't like it because it was too much prequel, back when Obi-Wan wasnt a Jedi yet.

JediJay65
07-18-2003, 01:33 AM
I am going to throw in my two cents. Though Ep, I is not perfect, I enjoyed it overall. I have my critical parts, but I have to agree that Lucas writes for kids so that they can enjoy it. I was 12 in 1977 and saw it with my Dad and sisters. To this day, it is one of my fondest memories of being with my Dad who passed away when I was 17. I went through high school with ESB and ROTJ.
Now being a father, I have watched my two kids, a girl and a boy go from 6 and 5 to 9 and 8 to 12 and 11 when Ep. III comes out growing up with Star Wars (and LOTR and Harry Potter etc). One of the many wonders of being their father has been to expose them to Star Wars. Ask my kids what they think and they rate the new movies and the old movies seperately. Good family entertainment. More importantly, it is one of many bonds that I have shared and will continue to share with my kids. Our excitment in finding a new figure to add to the collection, or the hype of the new movie coming out or having a Star Wars video/DVD party on a Friday night is priceless. Perhaps after everything, that is the greatest treasure that Star Wars brings, the memories of sharing the experience with those we love (not to saw we should not be critical of the films or want more in them).

[ 07-18-2003, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: JediJay65 ]

GNT
07-19-2003, 09:31 PM
yea, thats a good point too. it is to bad 7-9 werent made either, and its too bad they wont at all.<font size="2" face="arial">Would anyone really want George to? After the whole PT movies?

i_like_yoda
07-21-2003, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by Bounty Hunter GNT™:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="arial">yea, thats a good point too. it is to bad 7-9 werent made either, and its too bad they wont at all.<font size="2" face="arial">Would anyone really want George to? After the whole PT movies? </font>[/QUOTE]<font size="2" face="arial">Yes.

He screwed up big-time with TPM, but he made up for it with AOTC. I think Ep. 3 will be better than AOTC.

So, if this pattern continues, then old Georgie's movies will get better and better. Ergo, I want Ep's 7, 8, and 9 made.

radfury
07-21-2003, 05:11 PM
see this is my point and what i wanted to know. you say he screwed up on TPM, but what was it that he screwed up on? i wanted people to explain to me the different reasons they feel that way towards this movie. so fill me in on your point of view. images/icons/smile.gif

bjlevine
07-25-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
see this is my point and what i wanted to know. you say he screwed up on TPM, but what was it that he screwed up on? i wanted people to explain to me the different reasons they feel that way towards this movie. so fill me in on your point of view. images/icons/smile.gif <font size="2" face="arial">Okay:

A. Lack of any interesting characters. The OT was chock full of them. Closest thing to a great character was Qui-Gon and he got killed off, but even he was way too serious.

B. Abysmal Humor. Jar Jar? Please. 3PO in the arena was just embarrassing. The original SW was loaded with humor. Which leads to my next point:

C. It just not as much fun. The OT was a fun romp. I know that this is a darker story, but if you're going to call it Star Wars, then it has to feel like Star Wars, and for me, it doesn't.

D. Jake Skywalker. Having Darth Vader start out as a 9 year old was a rediculous decision.

E. Emphasis on CGI, rather than on script. I've read all of the original drafts of the SW script, and frankly, I found each of them to be more entertaining than TPM.

Do you really want me to go on? Is the PT bad? Not at all. It just doesn't feel like SW to me, and is certainly not on par with the OT.

radfury
07-25-2003, 02:53 PM
well i dont know what made the 3po thing in the arena embarrassing. but whatever you say bud. maybe its not as "fun" to you anymore because you already know the story? or maybe its because youve just grown up and find everything about it too kiddy for you? how would you of had anakin start out? if he was older, others would complain about that. there is a point to it, its to show the path to the darkside. that you arent born evil, but its more of a choice that you make (good or bad). i dont find there to be to much story by the cgi. but it helps move things along. you would never of seen the galactic senate if it werent for cgi!? you probably would never have seen the clone wars had it not been for cgi!? dont knock to hard because your putting down the very idea of the things that you were curious about as a kid.

bjlevine
07-25-2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
well i dont know what made the 3po thing in the arena embarrassing. but whatever you say bud. maybe its not as "fun" to you anymore because you already know the story? or maybe its because youve just grown up and find everything about it too kiddy for you? how would you of had anakin start out? if he was older, others would complain about that. there is a point to it, its to show the path to the darkside. that you arent born evil, but its more of a choice that you make (good or bad). i dont find there to be to much story by the cgi. but it helps move things along. you would never of seen the galactic senate if it werent for cgi!? you probably would never have seen the clone wars had it not been for cgi!? dont knock to hard because your putting down the very idea of the things that you were curious about as a kid. <font size="2" face="arial">No, its not as much fun because...its just not as much fun. images/icons/confused.gif images/icons/confused.gif images/icons/wink.gif

Look, its the characters and the dialogue and the story. The OT was loaded with characters that I liked (and still do), as well as lots of funny dialogue. I don't feel an afinity to anyone in the PT. And yeah, I would have definately stareted with Anakin older (16-20). And one thing I also don't like about the PT is the de-spiritualization of the Force.

Hey, you wanted to know, so I told you. The PT is just a different animal from the OT, and IMHO, not as good.

GNT
07-26-2003, 09:21 AM
you would never of seen the galactic senate if it werent for cgi!? you probably would never have seen the clone wars had it not been for cgi!?<font size="2" face="arial">We would probably have seen a more roman style Galactic Senate assembly which would have suited the films more better.

As for the Clone Wars we still could have seen that but it would all be stop motion pieces which would have fitted with the OT more better, clones would be real people in suits. It could have been done.

radfury
07-26-2003, 02:18 PM
you see but you say there is a problem with the story, whats the problem? i liked it, yes thats me; but what was the problem with the story? its the same as it always has been; anakins fall and rise to and from the dark side. there are fills in between that to make individual stories, but its still the same concept as it has always been. as for the roman style senate idea, i dunno, that sounds kinda interesting, but it wouldnt be starwars if you ask me. it kinda sounds like something that might happen on naboo and not coruscant (if that makes sense images/icons/tongue.gif ) then as for the clone wars thing, it might have been done, but not in the scale we saw it as in AOTC. it would cost money to hire all those extras that it would to do it with CGI. plus without cgi, we wouldnt go to any other worlds other than the 4 in the original trilogy (tatooine,hoth, dagobah & endor). if we did it would be generic planets. i.e. kashykk (sp?) would look a lot like endor, or so it would as described by GL (yes i know that endor was planned to be the wookie planet in the beginning anyway images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/tongue.gif images/icons/wink.gif )

[ 07-26-2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: ob-1kenobi ]

Daigo_Bah
07-26-2003, 04:29 PM
I agree with everything bjlevine said up there. The prequels are entertaining, but in my mind they are a different trilogy, not the origin of the movies we grew up with. The general story is sound, with the jedi portrayals, rise and fall of Anakin, Coruscant, etc, but a lot of the ways it's portrayed and some of the other details are wrong in my mind (or how George would have done it, say 20 years ago). He said many times in interviews that CGI now allows him to put anything down instead of limiting himself with ideas that couldn't be done. I say the limitations made a better series of films. The characters felt more human and tangible.

1) I hated C-3PO's origins. Being built by the future Vader? Plus, he was like a child instead of the sophisticated snob in the later films. He should have started as an assistant droid in the Senate or something. The entire Droid Factory sequence of AOTC illustrates my point: a human actor would never have been asked to perform the getting-thrown-around portion of 3PO in the factory, and so the CGI version was not believable. He is a heavy, slow-moving droid; he would never have been able to hold on with his fingertips to the edge of that flying platform.
2) A lot of the acting was poor in both of the movies; I don't think any acting was poor in the OT (even Luke's snottiness).
3) It's so easy to tell when environments are really bluescreens. I like the OT for their tangible reality environments. He chose locales that most people will not have visited before like Finse, Tunisian desert, or portions of Death Valley and the Redwood forest; but they could believe in them because they do exist and the actors interact with them.

radfury
07-28-2003, 10:05 AM
also the thing about the PT is its there to show the origins of all the characters and how they came into play in the down fall of the republic. as for the thing with it being un-believable with him in the droid factory; its just a movie. it was for pure entertainment. thats all movies are. do you have TPM or AOTC on vhs/dvd? how many times did you see it in the theater? im not picking you out of everyone to make an example its just a question. images/icons/wink.gif images/icons/tongue.gif

bjlevine
07-28-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
also the thing about the PT is its there to show the origins of all the characters and how they came into play in the down fall of the republic. as for the thing with it being un-believable with him in the droid factory; its just a movie. it was for pure entertainment. thats all movies are. do you have TPM or AOTC on vhs/dvd? how many times did you see it in the theater? im not picking you out of everyone to make an example its just a question. images/icons/wink.gif images/icons/tongue.gif <font size="2" face="arial">I think that you're missing the point: I don't think that the prequels are bad movies...I think that they are badly made movies images/icons/wink.gif

Face it, the whole feel of the OT is different, much more witty, with more-likeable characters. I really think that Lucas became so enamoured with all of the digital technology, that he put a lot less time into the story and dialogue (as I mentioned earlier, there were 4 drafts of the original SW script before he got the to the final one).

Remember that Lucas didn't have to sell the idea of a PT to anyone, while he had to beg and plead to get ANH made. He had to have a solid story and script in order to sell it. Not so with the PT, and for me, it shows.

And yes, I have both PT films on DVD, and have seen each 3 times in theaters. I like them, but not nearly as much as the OT, and think that they could've been much better.

radfury
07-28-2003, 08:59 PM
ok then, what is it then that makes them "badly made movies" to you? how would you have had the first two movies be layed out? you said they could have been much better; tell me what you would have done to make them better films?

bjlevine
07-29-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
ok then, what is it then that makes them "badly made movies" to you? how would you have had the first two movies be layed out? you said they could have been much better; tell me what you would have done to make them better films? <font size="2" face="arial">That's hard to say...its not so much of a plot issue, as a character and dialogue issue. There's lots of little things I didn't like about TPM (kid Ani, Jar Jar, 3PO built by Ani, etc), but mostly its the feel of the story. The characters are needlessly more serious (or inane in the case of Jar Jar and 3PO). Even in its darkest moments, ESB never failed to throw in a bit of lightheartedness (Han's "I feel terrible" comment after being tortured, the "I love you. I know." scene). Its hard to explain.

As for what I would do? Well, based on a dare by a friend who got sick of me complaining about the PT, I am in the middle of writing my own Prequel script, just so I can say, here, this is how I would've done it. Its actually what I call a Re-quel, since it has nothing in common with the PT. I'm about 25% done, and I guess I'll post it somewhere when its finished. Its actually kind of fun to do, and lets me explore how I would've done things.

Eight_Nunb
07-29-2003, 01:52 PM
Overall, TPM stinks. I still enjoy watching it, because it IS Star Wars and there are many entertaining parts in the movie, but it was still pretty crappy!

Here's the reasons why it stinks:

- BBBBBaaaad acting. Anakin, Padme, even Obi-wan sometimes. "I'm a person and my name is Anakin!!"
Liam Neison saves this movies.
- BBBBaaaad dialogue, not as bad as EP2 though.
- I'm getting used to all the CGI, but its still a little over-the-top.
- The plot was crap. It took me years to understand the whole "Trade Federation vs Naboo" thing.
- The final battle sucked. Gungans vs. Battle Droids is a yawn-fest. And Anakin "accidently" destroying the space-station was stupid. They should have started the Clone Wars in EP1.
- The double-bladed lightsaber is an awesome idea, but Darth Maul has ZERO character development and i thought he was too "manufactured to be cool" and designed to sell toys, rather than an actual cool character. Count Dooku is 10-times better IMO.
- The final lightsaber duel had its neat moments, but i thought it was "too choreographed". The fighting didn't look natural. The Yoda/Dooku fight was alot cooler IMO.
- Jar Jar and Boss Nass need to be shot.
- RD-D2 and C-3PO are relegated to background characters, rather main characters!
- the "emmaculate conception" of Anakin was lame. Comparing Anakin to Jesus Christ? gimme a break...

i'm sure there's lots more reasons, but those are the main ones i guess. I don't want to pound all over the movie, because there are a few scenes i really like, but overall it doesn't satisfy my Star Wars sweet-tooth.

radfury
07-29-2003, 02:18 PM
i wouldnt have started the clone wars in episode 1 because then you would have people complaining about how it jumped right into the middle of everything and there was no development of any characters. if we were already in the clone wars you would be expected to already know about anakin and how him and obi-wan came to be together. GL is trying to leave very little for EU to cover when it comes to his main characters as far as origins go. i.e. anakin from tatooine, palpatine from naboo, C-3PO being built by anakin, R2-D2 was owned by luke and leia's mom-protected her and became a friend and companion similar to that that her children had. its the story of a family. ever heard the term "keeping it in the family" (im not referring to being imbread(sp));its all coincidence that the chosen ones droids ended up in the hands of his hidden son. GL is hitting on the subject of destiny and things like that. if that makes sense. images/icons/tongue.gif

Daigo_Bah
07-29-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
its just a movie. it was for pure entertainment. thats all movies are. <font size="2" face="arial">That's always the defensive response when an accurate criticism is made. Sure they're "just" movies, but they have to be believable within their own context for people to accept them. I know that C-3PO would not be able to do what he did by what I observed from the OT (especially since they had to rely on CGI to do it instead of an actor), so that scene instantly dropped me out of the movie.

Don't be so defensive of the prequels; you didn't write them. It's okay to accept other people's opinions on the matter since these movies are for everybody. Are you afraid to admit we might be right? images/icons/wink.gif

radfury
07-29-2003, 05:21 PM
whoa bro. im not getting defensive. trust me i know that the PT has its low moments, but its starwars and thats why i love it. while its not the highest on my list, i still do enjoy watching it. images/icons/smile.gif letting people have there own opinion and knowing that is what this whole forum comes down too. i'm not coming off as being totally defensive to the PT, i wanted to start a constructive argument to understand why people feel the way they do of this movie. i want to find a happy medium to narrow down different problems people find so i can say "this is why people dont like the movie" not "oh because of this, and this and that." know what i mean? now about your comment on "its only a movie is the normal comment people make when someone makes a accurate criticism"; people judge these films far to harshly. they are movies, not some high form of art. i like starwars, i like collecting starwars merchandise; but i draw the line when it comes into arguing about starwars. thats just retarded. text does no justice for emotions, so i cant describe or let you know what i mean or am trying to say beyond the boundries of a keyboard. when i write something and post it, im not arguing with someone- i dont do that; when ive posted its merely to understand where another comes from and/or giving my two cents as to why they might feel that way. to find a happy medium is the main goal about why people dont like the movie, it probably wont happen, but its fun to try. i wanted to have one reason why ep1 didnt hold over well with some a main reason. but you get into all the different looks on the film and so it probably wont happen but i still like to try; plus its something else to talk about. people take things different ways and have different opinions and in the beginning all i wanted to do was find that understanding of ep1's problem. so know that im not getting defensive. everyone on this board thinks that everyone else is here to argue or at least thats the way that most come off. sigh* images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[ 07-29-2003, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: ob-1kenobi ]

Eight_Nunb
07-29-2003, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
i wouldnt have started the clone wars in episode 1 because then you would have people complaining about how it jumped right into the middle of everything and there was no development of any characters. if we were already in the clone wars you would be expected to already know about anakin and how him and obi-wan came to be together. GL is trying to leave very little for EU to cover when it comes to his main characters as far as origins go. i.e. anakin from tatooine, palpatine from naboo, C-3PO being built by anakin, R2-D2 was owned by luke and leia's mom-protected her and became a friend and companion similar to that that her children had. its the story of a family. ever heard the term "keeping it in the family" (im not referring to being imbread(sp));its all coincidence that the chosen ones droids ended up in the hands of his hidden son. GL is hitting on the subject of destiny and things like that. if that makes sense. images/icons/tongue.gif <font size="2" face="arial">Yes, i agree that the characters need to be developed in EP1. But you also need a plot to base the story around. George chose to make the plot about the Trade Federation vs. the Naboo, and have all the characters come together and interact through that struggle on Naboo.

If i was GL, i would have made the plot surround the Clone Wars, or at least something more interesting than Gungans vs. Battle Droids. Like bjlevine, i'm also working on my own "version" of EP1 and the other prequels (episodes 1-3). Sure, GL's prequels are pretty good, especially AOTC, but they have major flaws IMO and i have my own vision of what the prequels should be. I'm not writing any scripts, but i'm just trying to make moderately detailed plots for the movies. I'm about 75-80% done with the plotting. Ep1 is fleshed out pretty well, so if you'd like i could post my EP1 plot for you.

Daigo_Bah
07-29-2003, 10:18 PM
Your motives are good, OB-1! images/icons/grin.gif I didn't want the "defensive" title to come across as an accusation; rather, I've found so many fans and collectors force (no pun intended) themselves to love anything SW just because it has the SW name, and it doesn't have to be that way. I certainly own both DVDs and I watch them regularly, and I love the overall package, but I realize that in my view these are not the "purist" visions George would have given us back in the day. But, I agree these discussions help all of us understand other viewpoints on the films. By the way, I think that though these films are not high art, they are far more influential to youth and us 30-somethings than are true forms of art.

On a side note, I'd love to read the alternate plotlines you guys have come up with!

GNT
07-30-2003, 04:21 AM
I'm also writting a script for EP1, it must be re-write season images/icons/tongue.gif My version will flow with the 2nd film and the OT.


What george should have done first was work out an overall story for EP1 to 3 then break it down again into smaller parts so that there would be continuity between the films. That way he could have had an aging dooku in EP1 and whatnot.

bjlevine
07-30-2003, 07:42 AM
Okay, I've gone ahead and posted my work in progress (about 25% completed).

Be warned...my story has NOTHING in common with the PT. I've gone back to scratch, and recreated a completely different story line. In fact, I've drawn on inspiration from the very first draft script of SW. My Anakin Skywalker has more in common with Annikan Starkiller than either PT Anakin. I've also used the Clieg Whitsun character, only I turned him into Owen Lars. And I almost wholesale ripped off the escape pod scene. images/icons/wink.gif

http://www.animecollectibles.com/swe1/swe1.html

bjlevine
07-30-2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Bounty Hunter GNT™:
I'm also writting a script for EP1, it must be re-write season images/icons/tongue.gif My version will flow with the 2nd film and the OT.


What george should have done first was work out an overall story for EP1 to 3 then break it down again into smaller parts so that there would be continuity between the films. That way he could have had an aging dooku in EP1 and whatnot. <font size="2" face="arial">At the very least, it would have been nice to see Dooku on the council sticking up for Qui-Gon in his bid to have Anakin trained.

In my story, I sorta gave up on the existing PT, after realizing that more than indiviual issues, I had a problem with the whole "feel" of the PT.

LSTHNZRO
07-30-2003, 02:09 PM
I, for the first time this week, sat down and watched all five movies in a row. I saw Ep 1 and 2 in the movies and a couple of times on cable. My mother in law bought me the original trilogy a couple of years ago.
Biggest problem...............movie technology is so much cooler in the new millenium!!! It is hard to picture Anakin's voice going from stern and clear....to James Earl Jones sounding. Little, subtle things, just kinda annoy me.
Still love all the movies though!!!!!! I've been watchin SW movies since 1977, and I will keep on as long as I can!!!!!

radfury
08-03-2003, 01:11 PM
[/qb][/QUOTE]At the very least, it would have been nice to see Dooku on the council sticking up for Qui-Gon in his bid to have Anakin trained.

In my story, I sorta gave up on the existing PT, after realizing that more than indiviual issues, I had a problem with the whole "feel" of the PT. [/QB][/QUOTE]


the dooku scene might be nice for a "special edition of TPM, but i doubt that'll get done since GL says that after the third movie hes done with starwars. but how can he walk away from starwars? after all the money he's made i find that hard to believe. plus he is supposedly going to fix some thing in the OT special edition. anyway we all know about that story. but the thing with the feel of the movie could possibly be different because of the light heartedness (if thats a word images/icons/tongue.gif )of the film. look at AOTC, its a much more serious story and much darker. is that what you mean?

bjlevine
08-04-2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
<font size="2" face="arial">At the very least, it would have been nice to see Dooku on the council sticking up for Qui-Gon in his bid to have Anakin trained.

In my story, I sorta gave up on the existing PT, after realizing that more than indiviual issues, I had a problem with the whole "feel" of the PT. [/QB][/QUOTE]


the dooku scene might be nice for a "special edition of TPM, but i doubt that'll get done since GL says that after the third movie hes done with starwars. but how can he walk away from starwars? after all the money he's made i find that hard to believe. plus he is supposedly going to fix some thing in the OT special edition. anyway we all know about that story. but the thing with the feel of the movie could possibly be different because of the light heartedness (if thats a word images/icons/tongue.gif )of the film. look at AOTC, its a much more serious story and much darker. is that what you mean? [/QB][/QUOTE]

I know that the story is darker, but so was ESB, and it still never lost its "fun" feel. I really think that part of the problem is that GL is taking the PT much too seriously. The OT really had the feel of an old swashbuckler (as did the Indiana Jones flicks), while the PT seems to be much more serious. I also think that GL has spent too much effort on CG effects, and not enough time on the characters and story. I know Anakin is supposed to be on a downward slide, but if he had at least made him a good character, then it would be a tragic moment, rather than "I can't wait for Vader to show up, and hopefully save this thing."

In my story (see above), I'm trying to keep a fun
atmosphere and (hopefully) the witty, funny dialogue that SW was famous for.

radfury
08-04-2003, 03:57 PM
well you never know. GL might add scenes into TPM maybe to add dialogue or scenes. i guess we wont find that out for many years. i highly doubt that that would happen but it would be nice to have some extra stuff like you mentioned.

Eight_Nunb
08-04-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by bjlevine:
I know that the story is darker, but so was ESB, and it still never lost its "fun" feel. I really think that part of the problem is that GL is taking the PT much too seriously. The OT really had the feel of an old swashbuckler (as did the Indiana Jones flicks), while the PT seems to be much more serious. I also think that GL has spent too much effort on CG effects, and not enough time on the characters and story. I know Anakin is supposed to be on a downward slide, but if he had at least made him a good character, then it would be a tragic moment, rather than "I can't wait for Vader to show up, and hopefully save this thing."

In my story (see above), I'm trying to keep a fun
atmosphere and (hopefully) the witty, funny dialogue that SW was famous for. <font size="2" face="arial">I agree somewhat. The "fun" feeling is sort of not there in the PT. I see the OT as sort of a bunch of "adventure" films, where a band of friends set-off on some quest or adventure or whatnot. They don't really have that in the PT. And alot of the fun and humor from the OT comes from R2 and 3PO, but they barely appear in the PT so far. And when they do, they make horrible jokes (ie: "i've fallen and i can't get up!").

But i disagree that Lucas has lost focus on the story and characters. I think he's trying the best he can, but he's just turned into a crappy writer. Maybe he should let someone else write the scripts, like in ESB.

I read some of your script, and its pretty good. I like the fact that R2 and 3PO appear in the first scene, just like ANH.

Another big problem i have with the PT, especially TPM, is Lucas' obsession with repeating things that mirror the OT. Like the "cantina" scene in AOTC, or how the ending celebration scene in TPM is almost an exact copy of the ending scene from ANH. I want NEW movies and a NEW trilogy...not a copy of the OT.

radfury
08-04-2003, 07:02 PM
well its like i said earlier, i think that GL is playing with the idea that you cant escape your destiny; plus i think he's trying to make things very ironic too. what i mean is since anakin decided to choose the darkside his son was given the task to make sure that his father still succeded in bring balance (killing palpatine). now with things being ironic like i said; luke blew up the death star, anakin and the federation ship;C-3PO being built by anakin and it coming into the hands of his son; anakin going on adventures with the two droids and luke doing the same thing. its all ironic; i believe that what hes trying to do is that since all these characters that were once affiliated with anakin, that since he went the wrong path and post poned his destiny, his son was then there to pick up the torch and pick up almost with what seems like he left off with. maybe im over analyzing, my bad if so. images/icons/tongue.gif images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/blush.gif

Daigo_Bah
08-04-2003, 11:20 PM
Reading the alternate story has got me wanting to do it too! I think what I consider most important to the prequel trilogy is to not ruin the surprises of the classic trilogy if you watch them in order. Therefore, I believe:
1) the story must not include Yoda (except by name) otherwise the scene in ESB loses impact
2) Anakin must be referred to without "Skywalker" or the scene with revealing the truth to Luke is ruined
3) Tatooine should not be a part of the story, otherwise the opening of ANH is no longer special, including the intro of the Jawas and Tuskens
4) C-3PO should have nothing to do with Anakin, and should probably be introduced in a separate movie from R2 (in fact, I don't think both droids should have anything to do with the main characters at all, but rather serve as a side story somehow- too coincidental)
5) there should be fewer Jedi and much fewer alien jedi (like Weequays, Baradas, etc), or again the impact of Yoda is lessened
6) the story should start with Anakin older, a deceased father, and anger problems

In other words, the prequel trilogy can feature Obi-Wan, Padme, and a last-nameless Anakin without spoiling the OT, but there has to be a different origin planet than Tatooine, no seen Yoda, and uninvolved droids. I'm gonna think on this for a while...

GNT
08-05-2003, 03:43 AM
2) Anakin must be referred to without "Skywalker" or the scene with revealing the truth to Luke is ruined<font size="2" face="arial">I think everyone on the face of the planet knows Vader is really Anakin, hardly any suprise.

bjlevine
08-05-2003, 07:59 AM
1) the story must not include Yoda (except by name) otherwise the scene in ESB loses impact<font size="2" face="arial">I struggled with this a bit, and was only going to include him in that opening scene, and may still change this.


2) Anakin must be referred to without "Skywalker" or the scene with revealing the truth to Luke is ruined<font size="2" face="arial">To get around this problem (and truth be told, everyone does know that Anakin is Vader), I was going to "kill off" Anakin at the end of E2 (battle with Obi-Wan), and then have Vader show up early in E3, and only reveal to a couple of characters (Obi-Wan and Adalia) near the end that he is Anakin.


3) Tatooine should not be a part of the story, otherwise the opening of ANH is no longer special, including the intro of the Jawas and Tuskens<font size="2" face="arial">Owen and Beru will take baby Luke into "hiding" on Tatooine in my E3. Obi-Wan will also take refuge there at the end. It won't be mentioned prior to that.


4) C-3PO should have nothing to do with Anakin, and should probably be introduced in a separate movie from R2 (in fact, I don't think both droids should have anything to do with the main characters at all, but rather serve as a side story somehow- too coincidental)<font size="2" face="arial">This is where I disagree. Lucas had said all along that the droids were the glue that held the saga together, and I think that they should always be together. Frankly, Vader spends practically no time with the droids in the OT, so its not a problem.


5) there should be fewer Jedi and much fewer alien jedi (like Weequays, Baradas, etc), or again the impact of Yoda is lessened<font size="2" face="arial">Not sure about this. My point is that there should be lots more Sith/Dark Jedi, not this two crap.


6) the story should start with Anakin older, a deceased father, and anger problems<font size="2" face="arial">My Anakin starts at 20, an orphan. Since I patterned him after Annikan Starkiller from the original script, he is a happy-go-lucky, risk-taking kind of guy, but does have issues in dealing with who he really is. Hence, when Obi-Wan tries to draw out his Jedi nature, Anakin rebels.

I like your ideas. I also now understand how hard it is to write a prequel for a legendary saga, trying to keep it true to its roots. I'm hoping to finish my E1 script by the end of September. After that, I may try to do an "audio version". Its all for fun, but I really believe that the PT could have been much better than what we've gotten so far.

Eight_Nunb
08-05-2003, 01:51 PM
Yes, there is a huge problem with writing the Prequels, since much of the OT relies on suprises like the Yoda scene in ESB, the fact that Vader is Luke's father, the fact that Luke has a sister...and its Leia!

Anybody who watches GL's prequels before the OT will know the answers to all of those surprises before they happen in the OT, which sort of ruins the story a bit. So its impossible not to spoil at least some of those surprises when writing the Prequels.

In the Prequels that i'm writing, i try to balance it so that people who have never seen the OT can understand it like its a brand-new movie, and also get as much satisfaction from the OT if they watch it afterwards. But I also write the PT from the prespective of those who have seen the OT before.

[ 08-05-2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Eight_Nunb ]

bjlevine
08-05-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Eight_Nunb:
Yes, there is a huge problem with writing the Prequels, since much of the OT relies on suprises like the Yoda scene in ESB, the fact that Vader is Luke's father, the fact that Luke has a sister...and its Leia!

Anybody who watches GL's prequels before the OT will know the answers to all of those surprises before they happen in the OT, which sort of ruins the story a bit. So its impossible not to spoil at least some of those surprises when writing the Prequels.

In the Prequels that i'm writing, i try to balance it so that people who have never seen the OT can understand it like its a brand-new movie, and also get as much satisfaction from the OT if they watch it afterwards. But I also write the PT from the prespective of those who have seen the OT before. <font size="2" face="arial">Yeah, about the only real, problem is the Anakin-Vader thing. It would be possible to keep it a secret until ESB except for one thing...Ben telling Luke that he had a young pupil named Darth Vader who was responsible for Luke's father's death.

I understand that at the time that ANH was written, Vader wasn't yet decided as Luke's father (and ya can't convince me otherwise images/icons/wink.gif ). But there's really no way to keep it a secret. If I allow Anakin to be killed (supposedly), and the have Vader show up in E3, it might work, except that there is then no way to explain what Ben tells Luke from any point of view. So, I'm going to do the next best thing...keep the secret until the end of E3 and then only reveal it to Obi-Wan and Adalia (whose she? read my script!).

Daigo_Bah
08-05-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Bounty Hunter GNT™:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="arial">2) Anakin must be referred to without "Skywalker" or the scene with revealing the truth to Luke is ruined<font size="2" face="arial">I think everyone on the face of the planet knows Vader is really Anakin, hardly any suprise. </font>[/QUOTE]<font size="2" face="arial">That's not the point. First of all, not everybody on the planet knows it (I can't tell you how many people are surprised when I tell them that Anakin in Ep1 and 2 eventually becomes Darth Vader- "Really?!"), and second, its not for our benefit but for future viewers. My 3 year old daughter doesn't know it, but in a couple years when she can understand the story, and we watch them in order, the Vader and Yoda and Luke/Leia connection are all lost before Ep4 is even reached. I'm telling you, Lucas simply did not need to tell the prequels as he did, which was too coincidental and absolutely diminishing the impact of the OT.

As a first viewer, you would NOT know that Anakin is Luke's father as long as he didn't use the Skywalker name in the prequels. Ben tells Luke that a young pupil of his became Vader and betrayed and murdered his father. This can still have happened without it being seen, because Luke at this point did not know his father's name was Anakin (or at least WE the viewers didn't know it). It is not until ROTJ, after Luke finds out about Vader, that the Anakin name is spoken in reference to his father. For future viewers, if they see ROTJ before the prequels, then they'll hear the Anakin name and know that the Anakin in Ep1,2, and 3 is Luke's Father. But if they see it in order, then they'll be surprised that Anakin becomes Vader, Vader later shocks them that he is Luke's father ("Whoa, his name was Anakin SKYWALKER?"), and then Ben tells Luke that Vader was once Anakin. In other words, the first 3 movies can have been a story about a Jedi named Anakin who becomes Darth Vader, the second three movies about a boy named Luke who becomes a new Jedi, and not until the end of ESB do you find out that they are really family. But if you call him Anakin Skywalker, then you know as soon as you see Luke that he is related.

[ 08-05-2003, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Daigo-Bah ]

bjlevine
08-06-2003, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by Daigo-Bah:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="arial">Originally posted by Bounty Hunter GNT™:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="arial">2) Anakin must be referred to without "Skywalker" or the scene with revealing the truth to Luke is ruined<font size="2" face="arial">I think everyone on the face of the planet knows Vader is really Anakin, hardly any suprise. </font>[/QUOTE]<font size="2" face="arial">That's not the point. First of all, not everybody on the planet knows it (I can't tell you how many people are surprised when I tell them that Anakin in Ep1 and 2 eventually becomes Darth Vader- "Really?!"), and second, its not for our benefit but for future viewers. My 3 year old daughter doesn't know it, but in a couple years when she can understand the story, and we watch them in order, the Vader and Yoda and Luke/Leia connection are all lost before Ep4 is even reached. I'm telling you, Lucas simply did not need to tell the prequels as he did, which was too coincidental and absolutely diminishing the impact of the OT.

As a first viewer, you would NOT know that Anakin is Luke's father as long as he didn't use the Skywalker name in the prequels. Ben tells Luke that a young pupil of his became Vader and betrayed and murdered his father. This can still have happened without it being seen, because Luke at this point did not know his father's name was Anakin (or at least WE the viewers didn't know it). It is not until ROTJ, after Luke finds out about Vader, that the Anakin name is spoken in reference to his father. For future viewers, if they see ROTJ before the prequels, then they'll hear the Anakin name and know that the Anakin in Ep1,2, and 3 is Luke's Father. But if they see it in order, then they'll be surprised that Anakin becomes Vader, Vader later shocks them that he is Luke's father ("Whoa, his name was Anakin SKYWALKER?"), and then Ben tells Luke that Vader was once Anakin. In other words, the first 3 movies can have been a story about a Jedi named Anakin who becomes Darth Vader, the second three movies about a boy named Luke who becomes a new Jedi, and not until the end of ESB do you find out that they are really family. But if you call him Anakin Skywalker, then you know as soon as you see Luke that he is related. </font>[/QUOTE]<font size="2" face="arial">Well then, you would also kind of have to sidestep the whole birth of Luke and Leia thing as well, which might be a bit of a problem.

In my case, since Owen and Beru are major players in E1 (they won't resurface until mid-E3), its kind of a moot point. Also, since my script is NEVER going to be made into a major motion picture images/icons/wink.gif revealing that Anakin is Vader at the end of E3 isn't really too much of a problem.

Hey moderator...maybe we should get a seperate category for homebrew prequel scripts. Seems like everyone is writing one these days.

[ 08-06-2003, 04:57 AM: Message edited by: bjlevine ]

radfury
08-06-2003, 10:47 AM
well it would also work if at the end of episode 3 GL didnt say vaders name, just showed the character. Of course though they do say his name a little later in the movie but just not right off the bat (ep4). i think that more of what GL is trying to do with the PT is to re-introduce the characters and new ones too. i believe that hes trying to make these one big movie the best that can possibly be done; that means letting out secrets that will spoil the storyline a little later on in the "movie". now what i mean?

bjlevine
08-06-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
well it would also work if at the end of episode 3 GL didnt say vaders name, just showed the character. Of course though they do say his name a little later in the movie but just not right off the bat (ep4). i think that more of what GL is trying to do with the PT is to re-introduce the characters and new ones too. i believe that hes trying to make these one big movie the best that can possibly be done; that means letting out secrets that will spoil the storyline a little later on in the "movie". now what i mean? <font size="2" face="arial">Actually Leia calls him Darth Vader about 5 minutes into ANH.

I think that several problems were caused by GL's decision to start off Anakin as a 10 year old. I think that the consensus is that he should have been older (at least Luke's age) at the start of the PT. And I personally think that Obi-Wan should have been a full-fledged Jedi Knight from the get go. Its hard to imagine Padawan Obi-Wan becoming an old fossil 30 years later.

But as I've said many times, I think that the real problem with the PT isn't the story, but the feel. Its just not a fun adventure story filled with likeable characters and witty dialogue, the way the OT was. That is the "prime directive" for my story: it has to feel like the OT.

radfury
08-06-2003, 03:06 PM
o yea i forgot about leia and vader. but the thing about obi wan starting out a jedi knight wouldnt have held over well with some. he is a very important character in the saga and GL wanted to explore his character a little bit more of when he was younger. its a weird feeling that i have now after reading your script and some others, but there are so many ways that the PT could have been done. i mean i love TPM, but if you added something different here and there things would have been that much better. if you ask me i think it would have been kinda cool to have owen in episode 1. but i do think its best that anakin started a kid only for that fact that it shows that its your choice to be good or bad (because he was a good kid) and it also showed us where he was from and his family (shmi). thing is if it were done much more differetly that would be a whole new can of worms to deal with. it all comes down to that everyone had a different view of what the TPM and much more the entire PT to be,and it just wasnt what they imagined so it flopped in some of their books. images/icons/frown.gif i was thinking about it today though; when TPM came out i remember it getting horrible reviews from critics (whats new? you cant rely on them anyway! images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/tongue.gif ) and i remember seeing interviews on tv of people coming out of seeing it and screaming about how awesome it was! but after all the negativity that surrounded the movie by the critics it changed a lot of peoples minds who were at first going on about how great it was. i know because i had many friends who did so. just another thought...

refz
08-06-2003, 08:09 PM
if i were lucas i wood made anakins skywalkers begininng a mystery and started with the sequals to 4 5 6!! THERE! too many Darths too they just killed in my opinion. Leave it be Darth vader the only Darth. Dont make every bad guy a freakin Darth thats just ****.

[ 08-06-2003, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: refz ]

refz
08-06-2003, 08:21 PM
curious really, how do you think GL will end up having anakin wind up in the self notorious "black suit"? I heard rumors of being knocked into some kind of acid pit by obi-wan to a fighter shot down, anything? what do you think?

Daigo_Bah
08-06-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by bjlevine:
Well then, you would also kind of have to sidestep the whole birth of Luke and Leia thing as well, which might be a bit of a problem <font size="2" face="arial">Well, I don't think it would be a problem since the OT worked fine without seeing the pregnancy with twins. In fact, we shouldn't see it or we'd find out that Luke has a sister before ROTJ (remember, I'm looking at it from the point of view of the new viewer; its not hard to imagine that people will be seeing these for the first time every day). I believe Ep3 should have ended with Anakin becoming Vader, Amidala revealing to Obi-Wan that she is pregnant (no mention of twins or boy/girl), and a staged death to fool both the audience and Vader that Amidala dies (when in fact she goes into hiding on Alderaan). That way, when watching Ep3 then 4, the new viewer will not realize that Luke is Amidala's son since she supposedly died.

bjlevine
08-06-2003, 09:46 PM
Good point. And remember that Lucas didn't actually decide that Leia was Luke's sister until he ROTJ, so its possible.

Eight_Nunb
08-08-2003, 12:05 AM
For some reason, i have a big problem with trying to make the prequel flow perfectly as if the Saga was meant to be watched in order from Episode's 1-6.

In a perfect world it would be cool if it could be watched like that, and it still can. But the reality is that the OT was written and made first, and the Prequels made afterwards. And also the fact that most of the viewers of the prequels have already seen the OT before they watch the PT. Trying to write the PT so it flows with OT for the sake of the "new viewer" is somewhat of a waste IMO, since most of the viewers aren't "newbies".

Personally, I think the proper way to write the PT is to write it assuming most of the viewers have already seen the OT, yet also make the PT extremely assessable to the new viewers. I think this is the way GL is writing it. You have to cater to the majority audience. The new viewers may not get all the little inside jokes etc., but thats ok.

bjlevine
08-08-2003, 05:16 AM
And you gotta remember, GL wrote ANH as if it didn't have to fit in with any other movie (he didn't know if there would be another movie), thus the really awkward explanation by Obi-Wan in ANH.

Frankly, thats why I decided not to try and "redo" the events in the PT, but come up with an entirely different storyline. There just was no other way to flow into the OT (and maintain the feel of the OT).

Daigo_Bah
08-09-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Eight_Nunb:
For some reason, i have a big problem with trying to make the prequel flow perfectly as if the Saga was meant to be watched in order from Episode's 1-6.

In a perfect world it would be cool if it could be watched like that, and it still can. But the reality is that the OT was written and made first, and the Prequels made afterwards. And also the fact that most of the viewers of the prequels have already seen the OT before they watch the PT. Trying to write the PT so it flows with OT for the sake of the "new viewer" is somewhat of a waste IMO, since most of the viewers aren't "newbies".

Personally, I think the proper way to write the PT is to write it assuming most of the viewers have already seen the OT, yet also make the PT extremely assessable to the new viewers. <font size="2" face="arial">I definitely understand where you're coming from, and I see why George did it this way- its much safer to write it with tons of cameos from the OT to help sell it to the long time fans. However, as cinematic history, I don't believe the prequels will ever fit in with its own OT because George didn't set it up to flow smoothly. I realize that maybe he tried to sell JarJar as the next lovable character like Chewbacca was in ANH, but failed miserably. A simpler story for both Ep1 and 2 I think would have gone a long way to improve them. Here are a few more things I'm going to change in my plot I'm writing:
1) The battle droids are going to be more humanoid and clunky, like somewhere between protocol droids and IG droids (I've always felt the prequel tech needs to be older in design than the OT, like wide use of "new" condition Y-Wings and droids like R1s and CZs
2) No Yaddle or Evan Piell, which lessen the impact of little Yoda being a Jedi Master in ESB
3) The Jedi are going to be less aggressive in Ep2. It looked to me like almost all of them were dancing on the edge of the dark side, especially when Obi-Wan chopped up the Acklay and Mace beheaded Jango. I already stated that I would not show Yoda, only mention him, but if I did, he would not get into a lightsaber battle like an insane frog. I want to show them as purely defensive and peaceful, in sharp contrast to the clone trooper soldiers (not leading them, but rather disapproving of their warlike ways)
4) Everything that happened to Anakin and his mother would still happen, but on another planet, and without the involvement of the Lars or the droids. I don't like the idea of the future Vader being related to Owen or being around the droids so much. If Tatooine would have been replaced with something else like Corellia or Dantooine, I'd have been much happier

Carnor_Jax
08-09-2003, 09:53 PM
Like I said before the prequel's are going to be slow like mimicing real life events(George is a nut when it comes to history and old serial movies)Just compared the Star Wars movies maybe to the rise of Napoleon or Hitler because evil doesn't just pop up they work behind the scenes then BAM!! you've got a dictatorship in a matter of years.I think Lucas bases Star Wars old&new on actual world events and it makes perfect sense why the movies bore alot of people because war is not fun and people are so used to being entertained by special effects that is all that they are expecting..how many film makers actually put the time and money into an ORIGINAL idea instead of making movies based on someone else's work like comic book movies or a best selling paperback?? Not too often... images/icons/frown.gif

radfury
08-09-2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Carnor Jax:
Like I said before the prequel's are going to be slow like mimicing real life events(George is a nut when it comes to history and old serial movies)Just compared the Star Wars movies maybe to the rise of Napoleon or Hitler because evil doesn't just pop up they work behind the scenes then BAM!! you've got a dictatorship in a matter of years.I think Lucas bases Star Wars old&new on actual world events and it makes perfect sense why the movies bore alot of people because war is not fun and people are so used to being entertained by special effects that is all that they are expecting..how many film makers actually put the time and money into an ORIGINAL idea instead of making movies based on someone else's work like comic book movies or a best selling paperback?? Not too often... images/icons/frown.gif <font size="2" face="arial">good point! images/icons/smile.gif images/icons/grin.gif

SamIAm
08-10-2003, 12:58 AM
Some of the actors just plain suck. Not all, but some of them. With bad acting comes a bad movie.. And the fact that Jar Jar is in it.. images/icons/tongue.gif

Jagdohh_Fett
08-10-2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Daigo-Bah:
3) The Jedi are going to be less aggressive in Ep2. It looked to me like almost all of them were dancing on the edge of the dark side, especially when Obi-Wan chopped up the Acklay and Mace beheaded Jango.
<font size="2" face="arial">Thank you! I'm glad to see someone else noticed that, especially with Obi-Wan taking so much pleasure in killing it. They are "keepers of the peace, not soldiers", but I guess it was self-defense and not an act of violent retaliation.


Originally posted by Daigo-Bah:
he would not get into a lightsaber battle like an insane frog
<font size="2" face="arial">I would say he was more of a Gremlin images/icons/grin.gif .


Originally posted by Ob-1kenobi:
what is it that makes it a kids movie to you?
<font size="2" face="arial">First off, starting Anakin off as a little kid (to relate to other kids). Then introduce a character and race that's sole purpose is to add comic relief and not keep up with serious moments. Then let the kid do the impossible by having him "accidentally" blow the bad guy's ship up and save the day (which sends a positive message to kids that anything is possible). Then have the bad guy's army made up of soulless battle-droids that provide excitement for kids when they are "killed" (keeping the human death total down so kids aren't worried about death).


As others have stated, it just didn't "feel" like Star Wars. That being said there were some cool scenes I liked such as the beginning "negotiations" and the final lightsaber duel, but that is about all I really enjoyed. The rest just seems rather pointless.

- Finding Anakin as a little boy just bugs me and having him "accidentally" blow the ship up and save the day was just not believeable.

- The CGI. Okay, yeah it was done good, but as someone else stated an animation is gonna look just like that, an animation. They don't seem as realistic as the puppets, which I liked (especially OT Yoda) and the matte paintings and such.

- Less Jar Jar. Less Boss Nass. Less Gungans. (I wish they had given us Ackbar's race instead of the Gungans)

- Useless and rather boring characters that were put in to sell merchandise and make the movie more kid-friendly (Jar Jar, Boss Nass, Watto, Sebulba, wire-frame 3PO).

- The villians were cheesy (not the Sith, but the Trade Federation). What did they actually accomplish in Ep. 1 besides a short-lived takeover of a city?

Personally, I wished that this was the shortest of the films, instead of Ep. 3 because it could have been ended very quickly and very easily, but GL wanted to exaggerate on the story and give us things that weren't important in the rest of the Saga.

Greejo
08-11-2003, 07:09 AM
To answer the original question of this thread..."why dont you like TPM?..", I do...and here are some of my reasons why. (http://forums.rebelscum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000290)

I would answer more fully here, but I'm still trying to get back the few hours I lost of my life responding to my own thread a couple of years back. images/icons/wink.gif

bjlevine
08-11-2003, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Greejo:
To answer the original question of this thread..."why dont you like TPM?..", I do...and here are some of my reasons why. (http://forums.rebelscum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000290)

I would answer more fully here, but I'm still trying to get back the few hours I lost of my life responding to my own thread a couple of years back. images/icons/wink.gif <font size="2" face="arial">Interesting stuff.

After watching ANH again on TBS last night (why is it I will sit through a movie with commercials that I already own on DVD and VHS? Same thing happened with Contact images/icons/confused.gif ), I am more convinced than ever that what made Star Wars so great was the "fun" factor. The characters were great, the dialogue was funny. It never let it take itself too seriously.

Much of this is sorely lacking from the PT. I was also amazing to me to hear my 11 year old point out that he didn't think that the SE CG shots (mostly Mos Eisley) looked very real.

So I will stand by my original assessment. The PT, while still good films, just don't have the same "feel" as the OT, which is my biggest disappointment about them.

radfury
08-11-2003, 09:45 AM
well GL said that TPM was going to get all of the polotics out of the way. that did add a lot of seriousness to the film, but it was something that needed to be explained. as for the "fun" i still think that you get that from this film, but it just has to set up a lot of things that are referred to in that later movies.

Carnor_Jax
08-11-2003, 09:25 PM
good point! images/icons/smile.gif images/icons/grin.gif <font size="2" face="arial">Thanks ob-1kenobi

Short & Sweet!

images/icons/smile.gif

bjlevine
08-13-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
well GL said that TPM was going to get all of the polotics out of the way. that did add a lot of seriousness to the film, but it was something that needed to be explained. as for the "fun" i still think that you get that from this film, but it just has to set up a lot of things that are referred to in that later movies. <font size="2" face="arial">IMO, Lucas is at his weakest when trying to explain something. Did the Force really need the Midichlorian explanation? The whole Luke-Ben conversation on Dagobah in ROTJ is really awkward (frankly I would have preferred Ben saying "yeah, I lied to you because I didn't think you were ready to hear the truth"). Even having Greedo shoot first in the SE ( images/icons/mad.gif ) is GL's little way of saying that Han really was a good guy at heart, rather than the bad-mutha we all know he is.

And the thought that maybe GL would sacrifice character development and story depth for the sake of continuity doesn't even compute with me.

bjlevine
08-15-2003, 10:38 AM
As I continue my alternate E1 script, I decided to read through Lucas' original script drafts again, and I'm now thinking that the Jedi should be somehow integrated into the military, sort of an elite fighting force (hence Ben being General Kenobi and Anakin described as a "cunning warrior").

Also, in the "Starkiller" version of the script, the Jedi were labeled as traitors for trying to take a stand against the Senate, which had become a pawn of the Trade Guilds. I kinda like this idea.

Thoughts?

Daigo_Bah
08-15-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by bjlevine:
As I continue my alternate E1 script, I decided to read through Lucas' original script drafts again, and I'm now thinking that the Jedi should be somehow integrated into the military, sort of an elite fighting force (hence Ben being General Kenobi and Anakin described as a "cunning warrior"). <font size="2" face="arial">It is interesting to learn everyone's interpretation of the Jedi- unfortunately I feel differently on the Jedi in their heyday. To me, Yoda's teachings on Dagobah define a Jedi (wars not make one great, force for knowledge and defense never for attack, your weapons you will not need them, etc). The title General and Leia's remark about fighting for my father during the Clone Wars could be explained in a military way of course, but I like to think the Jedi would guide or protect senators rather than lead the soldiers in battle like the CW Yoda figure. But, George seems to be taking it between both views, while the EU tends to go for a more military style.

Herbert_Ackermans
08-15-2003, 04:06 PM
There's also something about the way we are represented with certain key elements of being a Jedi in AOTC.

A Jedi shall not know anger, nor hatred, not love.

Well... FF to ESB, when Luke sees Han and Leia on Cloud City and loses concentration, it means he feels a lot of fondness towards Han and definately a degree of love for Leia.

You could say, that Luke being the last hope, that Yoda could look past Luke's love, but it does collide with what we get in AOTC.

No attachment, no possession.

Luke in a way attaches himself on Anakin, as he pursues the goodness in Vader, IMO from a love for his father he never knew.

Then, 20 years later, GL throws us these beliefs a Jedi must uphold in our faces. And the whole Midi-chlorian ****e.

It points towards the fact that GL has not made a good idea of what his definite definition of the Force and a Jedi is.

We see Jedi express anger on Geonosis, and we even see some joy in Kit Fisto whilst battling with the droids.

If the Jedi would be these almost emotionless beings, devoted to their "religion", none of the Jedi would've shown those kind of emotions.

We also don't hear any of Yoda's wise words from ESB being repeated in TPM or AOTC, his speech on how the Force binds us, and that we are luminous beings.

Also, Anakin talks about aggressive negotiations.

A Jedi shall not know anger, not hatred.

If a lightsabre is to be used in aggressive negotiations, how could that be the Jedi way?

bjlevine
08-16-2003, 12:31 AM
Fortunately (for me), my script is not bound by anything in the PT. So Anakin falling in love is not only okay, its encouraged.

Frankly, there was nothing in the OT to make us believe that Jedi falling in love was taboo, and everything to make us believe that its a great way to make little Jedi ("the force runs strong in my family"). And in the original drafts of SW, Annikan was the son of Jedi Kane, and Luke, Deak and Biggs (and his twin) were the sons of the StarKiller (Jedi Leader), so this is not a concept that GL held from the beginning.

And yeah, midichlorians suck, any way you slice it. There were lots of ways to show that Anakin was strong with the Force, without de-mystifying it.

radfury
08-18-2003, 08:01 PM
i never took the jedi to being angry when fighting on geonosis. they were protecting themselves. people expect them (jedi) to be these lifeless, emotionless people devoted to a religion when they arent. anakin was maybe showing a lot of aggression,but you will notice that none of the jedi attacked first in the movie. even in TPM the jedi didnt attack first (unless it was a droid and you cant negotiate with them anyway)so it was out of defense.

08-18-2003, 09:28 PM
When you watch the prequels look at it as a different era IE:Prequels:70's OT:Now

radfury
08-20-2003, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Nom Anor:
When you watch the prequels look at it as a different era IE:Prequels:70's OT:Now <font size="2" face="arial">i somewhat understand what you mean, but would you care to explain a little further? images/icons/tongue.gif

bjlevine
08-20-2003, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="arial">Originally posted by Nom Anor:
When you watch the prequels look at it as a different era IE:Prequels:70's OT:Now <font size="2" face="arial">i somewhat understand what you mean, but would you care to explain a little further? images/icons/tongue.gif </font>[/QUOTE]<font size="2" face="arial">I think I know what he means but not sure how valid it is. The OT showed us pratically nothing of culture in the Empire, as everything Imperial took place in space. The Destroyers and Death Stars had a pretty modern feel to them.

The PT has given us Coruscant and Naboo and Geonosis. A lot of the architecture has an older (or ancient) feel too it. Even Coruscant seems to have an art deco feel to it.

bjlevine
08-20-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Eight_Nunb:
BTW, i think Qui-Gon fought more accurately to the way Jedi are supposed to fight. He never looked that angry. And my favorite part was during the Qui-Gon/Darth Maul duel when they got stuck between the force-fields, and while they waited Qui-Gon just went into some peaceful meditation, even though there is a freakin' Sith 2 feet away from him ready to kill him!! <font size="2" face="arial">That's right before the part where Qui-GOn gets skewered, correct? images/icons/wink.gif

radfury
08-20-2003, 01:22 PM
ill give you that. images/icons/wink.gif but what i was saying about the arena and the jedi being angry; i really believe that it was all out of self defense. mace, when pulling his saber on jango was just acting very firm with what he was saying- not angry. obi-wan did act a little tempermental when killing the acklay; but who wouldnt? even though he is a jedi he is still human and deals with human emotions. he just has to know where to draw the line so as not to fall into the darkside of the force. once again it was probably written to be as self defense, you have to remember too, they were fighting for millions of billions of people to keep this war from happening.

bjlevine
08-20-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by ob-1kenobi:
ill give you that. images/icons/wink.gif but what i was saying about the arena and the jedi being angry; i really believe that it was all out of self defense. mace, when pulling his saber on jango was just acting very firm with what he was saying- not angry. obi-wan did act a little tempermental when killing the acklay; but who wouldnt? even though he is a jedi he is still human and deals with human emotions. he just has to know where to draw the line so as not to fall into the darkside of the force. once again it was probably written to be as self defense, you have to remember too, they were fighting for millions of billions of people to keep this war from happening. <font size="2" face="arial">Yeah...Yoda poured it on with that Jedi's should be at peace, passive. Bullcrap!

Gee, emotions, while obviously very powerful, might just lead you to the darkside, so we got to do away with all kind of emotional things...like love and such.

What is this, the freakin' Vulcan Science Acadamy? No wonder the Jedi are getting weaker.

Regardless of what GL says, I still maintain that bringing real "balance to the Force" would be to combine all of the powers of the Force, without giving in to evil. Hey, without getting metaphysical, this is where most of us live, trying to balance our good and bad qualities and emotions, hopefully with a positive outcome.

radfury
08-20-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by bjlevine:
Yeah...Yoda poured it on with that Jedi's should be at peace, passive. Bullcrap!

Gee, emotions, while obviously very powerful, might just lead you to the darkside, so we got to do away with all kind of emotional things...like love and such.

What is this, the freakin' Vulcan Science Acadamy? No wonder the Jedi are getting weaker.

Regardless of what GL says, I still maintain that bringing real "balance to the Force" would be to combine all of the powers of the Force, without giving in to evil. Hey, without getting metaphysical, this is where most of us live, trying to balance our good and bad qualities and emotions, hopefully with a positive outcome. <font size="2" face="arial">very well said. images/icons/smile.gif

Eight_Nunb
08-21-2003, 12:35 AM
i think the Jedi did look angry when they fought on Geonosis. The way Obi-wan speared one of the Arena beasts with the downward thrust of his saber to kill it looked downright horrific in my eyes.

Mace also looked like he was mad as hell throughout the area battle, and then decapitating Jango was..uhm...interesting (though i guess he deserved it). I think alot of that has to do with the fact that Samuel Jackson just wants to look bad-***** on screen as a Jedi...and who wouldn't? images/icons/tongue.gif

I also thought Yoda looked too "mean" at the beginning of his fight with Dooku. It was weird to see that.

The Jedi teach to not react in aggression or anger. The "Jedi Code" says "There is no emotion, there is peace" and "There is no passion, there is serenity". Fighting with any sort of aggression or anger is fighting with emotion and passion. I think the reason why some Jedi do look so angry is just to add some drama and action to the movie.

The way i think the Jedi should fight is similar to how Chow Yun Fat fights in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon". If you watch that movie, he rarely has any expression on his face other than concentration and focus. Even though somebody is launching swords in his face at 100mph he looks relaxed and confident. He doesn't look like he's "trying to kick some major *****".

Eight_Nunb
08-21-2003, 12:39 AM
BTW, i think Qui-Gon fought more accurately to the way Jedi are supposed to fight. He never looked that angry. And my favorite part was during the Qui-Gon/Darth Maul duel when they got stuck between the force-fields, and while they waited Qui-Gon just went into some peaceful meditation, even though there is a freakin' Sith 2 feet away from him ready to kill him!!

bjlevine
08-27-2003, 01:22 PM
Well, I'm nearing the 50% completion mark on my script and I need some input.

I can't totally decide whether Obi-Wan will be referred to as Master Kenobi or Major Kenobi. I'm leaning to Major Kenobi for the following reasons:

- Nowhere in the OT does it say that Obi-Wan was ever a Jedi Master.

- Leia's General Kenobi reference seems more logical.

- I've been drawing inspiration from the original SW draft script, and in it, the Jedi are a more military style group. Luke Skywalker is the Jedi Leader and holds the title "General".

- I like the idea that "Jedi Master" refers to a very elite status that few attain. Makes Yoda seem more special.

Thoughts?

radfury
08-27-2003, 02:18 PM
jedi master is a status that few attain isnt it? you are only a master if you are on the council; and you have to have a lot of potential to be given that title dont you?

Eight_Nunb
09-01-2003, 04:56 PM
You can be a Jedi Master and not be on the Council. Kit Fisto is a Jedi Master and he hasn't been on the council.

bjlevine
09-02-2003, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Eight_Nunb:
You can be a Jedi Master and not be on the Council. Kit Fisto is a Jedi Master and he hasn't been on the council. <font size="2" face="arial">Let me regroup, here. Since I am not basing anything on the PT, the current "everyone is a Jedi Master, and all apprentices call their teachers 'Master'" idea doesn't figure in.

In ANH, Ben only refers to himself as a former Jedi Knight. He refers to Yoda as a Jedi Master, and before he knows who he is speaking to, Luke refers to Yoda as a Jedi Master, with a bit of awe in his tone.

So, I'm leaning away from any references to Obi-Wan as 'Master Kenobi', but that leaves me with needing a way for people to refer to him. I really don't like the idea of 'Sir Kenobi' (yeach!), and since Leia refers to him as 'General Kenobi', and since in some early script drafts Lucas makes the Jedi out as a more military-style group, I was going to have him be titled 'Major Kenobi' in my E1, knowing that by the end of the Clone Wars, he will have advanced to the rank of General.

So I was wanting thoughts about this, and please don't use anything in the PT as a basis for your ideas...I'm just not interested. My whole point is to create a back story that feels more like Star Wars than the Prequels.

radfury
09-02-2003, 11:22 AM
is it possible that just because obi-wan is referred to by anakin as "master obi-wan", that it is more of a respect thing than an actual rank? i thought you went from padawan to jedi knight and then to master. but i also thought that you were a master when you were on the council. do you see what i'm saying? anakin always replies "yes master or no master"; kinda like you say to your elders "yes or no sir/ma'am" because just like bjlevine said, obi wan was never referred to or hinted at as a master, but only a jedi knight.

Eight_Nunb
09-02-2003, 09:13 PM
Thats a good point, Ob-1. If you wanted to, bjlevine, you could still have Obi-wan as a Jedi Knight but have his apprentince call him "master". I don't think Obi-wan was a Jedi Master, but rather a Jedi Knight.

Actually, why don't you just have people refer to Obi-wan as "Jedi Kenobi"? I think that sounds pretty good. So Anakin can be refered to as "Padawan Skywalker" (if you so choose), Yoda is refered to as "Master Yoda", and Obi-wan as "Jedi Kenobi". Have each Jedi refered to first by rank and then their last name. Its basically a choice of having a Jedi refered to by his Jedi rank, or his rank in the military(according to your story).

I also like the idea of having the Jedi as more of a part of the Republic military. I can't really say i like the sound of "Major Kenobi", but it would make sense if the Jedi are a part of the military hierarchy. However, you never hear Yoda refered to as "Commander Yoda" or anything like that, but Luke was a Jedi-in-training and also a Commander in the Alliance. I always imaged that Obi-wan was just a regular Jedi Knight up until the Clone Wars, and then was granted a special rank as General when the CW began. Like when Lando was named a General in ROTJ.

Its a tough call, and its ultimately your decision.

[ 09-02-2003, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Eight_Nunb ]

bjlevine
09-03-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Eight_Nunb:
Thats a good point, Ob-1. If you wanted to, bjlevine, you could still have Obi-wan as a Jedi Knight but have his apprentince call him "master". I don't think Obi-wan was a Jedi Master, but rather a Jedi Knight.

Actually, why don't you just have people refer to Obi-wan as "Jedi Kenobi"? I think that sounds pretty good. So Anakin can be refered to as "Padawan Skywalker" (if you so choose), Yoda is refered to as "Master Yoda", and Obi-wan as "Jedi Kenobi". Have each Jedi refered to first by rank and then their last name. Its basically a choice of having a Jedi refered to by his Jedi rank, or his rank in the military(according to your story).

I also like the idea of having the Jedi as more of a part of the Republic military. I can't really say i like the sound of "Major Kenobi", but it would make sense if the Jedi are a part of the military hierarchy. However, you never hear Yoda refered to as "Commander Yoda" or anything like that, but Luke was a Jedi-in-training and also a Commander in the Alliance. I always imaged that Obi-wan was just a regular Jedi Knight up until the Clone Wars, and then was granted a special rank as General when the CW began. Like when Lando was named a General in ROTJ.

Its a tough call, and its ultimately your decision. <font size="2" face="arial">Great input. Thanks.

Remember this conversation?


LUKE: No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a
spice freighter.

BEN: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your
father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten
involved.

LUKE: You fought in the Clone Wars?

BEN: Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.

LUKE: I wish I'd known him.

BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior.


And from the opening scroll of the original draft:


Until the recent Great Rebellion, the Jedi Bendu were the most feared warriors
in the universe. For one hundred thousand years, generations of Jedi
perfected their art as the personal bodyguards of the emperor. They were the
chief architects of the invincible Imperial Space Force which expanded the
Empire across the galaxy, from the celestial equator to the farthest reaches
of the Great Rift.

Now these legendary warriors are all but extinct. One by one they have been
hunted down and destroyed as enemies of the New Empire by a ferocious and
sinister rival warrior sect, the Knights of Sith.


So it makes perfect sense to me that the Jedi were a military style organization. Kind of an elite force within the military.

Also, I always go the impression from ESB that Yoda was kind of a spiritual leader of the Jedi, sort of a Dalai Lama type character.

And since Vader refers to Obi-Wan in ANH as "my old master", I think that its perfectly okay for apprentices to refer to their teachers as 'Master'.

I've pretty much mapped out the story from the protagonists side, and am working things out for the bad guys. I'm leaning towards the idea that Palpatine has discovered the 'Kiber Crystal' (thanks, George...I am such a thief), which allows him to amplify darkside power.

Dressel_Rebel
09-03-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Eight_Nunb:
I think alot of that has to do with the fact that Samuel Jackson just wants to look bad-***** on screen as a Jedi...and who wouldn't? :<font size="2" face="arial">You should see what he wrote on his wallet.

radfury
09-04-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Dressel Rebel:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="arial">Originally posted by Eight_Nunb:
I think alot of that has to do with the fact that Samuel Jackson just wants to look bad-***** on screen as a Jedi...and who wouldn't? :<font size="2" face="arial">You should see what he wrote on his wallet. </font>[/QUOTE]<font size="2" face="arial">what might that be? images/icons/confused.gif

spiderlegs
09-11-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Darth Mack:
the midi-chlorian thing, but I disliked Jar Jar (no surprise), the Immaculate Conception of Anakin, the plethora of cutesy/cartoony aliens, and the lack of funny dialog.<font size="2" face="arial">I liked it, but the factors which determined (for me) why it was my least fave of the 5 were pretty well listed above. Has anyone seen the Kevin Smith edit which has all the Jar-Jar scenes removed (except for ones in which he is not a principal character)? I heard it made TPM way better. I lost my left nut trying to obtain a TARGET Y-Wing and an R2-D2 w/holographic Leia, but my right one to anyone who has a copy of the KS:TPM!

radfury
09-11-2003, 08:20 PM
sounds interesting. id like to see that.

Daigo_Bah
09-12-2003, 09:10 PM
I completely agree with trying to get the feel of the OT in a new draft, but I still don't like the Jedi as Military. I believe it was dropped by George after the early draft because it wasn't what he wanted after all either. At least, I've never gotten the impression from the films, other than the Clone Wars dialogue by Ben and Luke, that they were ever a military force. I like the line: "The Jedi were the guardians of peace in the old Republic", and "wars not make one great". I've always seen the Jedi as Senatorial bodyguards or royal protection, not as what they were at the end of AOTC or in this EU Clone Wars thing, wearing headsets and body armor...

09-13-2003, 02:56 AM
The characters were all monotone and uninteresting the only character who had a pulse was Jar-Jar, and that says alot and when you don't have interesting characters the story they tell isn't very interesting either, and when they arn't monotone and dull it's like who are these people and why are they so mad. Why is Yoda so stuck up? Why does Mace maddog everybody who visits the council? And little attention deficit Ani over here needs to take his Ritalin to keep his attitude checked. And little miss Queen B of the universe what's up with her? These characters had 2 moods really pissed and really dull images/icons/wink.gif

bjlevine
09-15-2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Daigo-Bah:
I completely agree with trying to get the feel of the OT in a new draft, but I still don't like the Jedi as Military. I believe it was dropped by George after the early draft because it wasn't what he wanted after all either. At least, I've never gotten the impression from the films, other than the Clone Wars dialogue by Ben and Luke, that they were ever a military force. I like the line: "The Jedi were the guardians of peace in the old Republic", and "wars not make one great". I've always seen the Jedi as Senatorial bodyguards or royal protection, not as what they were at the end of AOTC or in this EU Clone Wars thing, wearing headsets and body armor... <font size="2" face="arial">So you think that I should keep the military and the Jedi as two seperate entities? I'm kinda leaning that way myself, but that still leaves me with a formal way for people to address Obi-Wan:

Jedi Kenobi
Master Kenobi (he's not a Jedi Master yet)
Sir Kenobi (yuck)
Obi-Wan Kenobi

For example, consider the following line:

Ambassador Kallo: Take care of my little girl, _______ (insert name)

In the OT, Ben was always referred to as Ben, Obi-Wan or Obi-Wan Kenobi (Vader refers to him once as 'my old Master', but then he was Ben's padawan), not with a specific title. I kinda need one, but nothing feels right.

JeedaiProphet
09-16-2003, 10:29 AM
1-Midi-freakin-chlorians...worst.starwarsidea.ever.

2-Jar-Jar...Could've been ok, but instead they make him an autistic cartoon character (not to mention MARKETING OPPURTUNITY!!!)

3-The podrace...was pretty cool, but diddn't really need to take up half the freakin movie

4-Yoda...you really think theres that big a difference in appearance between 850 and 900 years old...i think not.

5-The story itself wasn't all that important to the overall story. could have condensed all relevant story (stuff about how Anakin was discovered by the Jedi into the first half-hour of the film, then flash forward to episode 2's events, then give us a new episode 2 (Clone Wars?) and finally EP3

radfury
10-07-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by jeedaiprophet:

4-Yoda...you really think theres that big a difference in appearance between 850 and 900 years old...i think not.
<font size="2" face="arial">i will definitely agree with you here. yoda did look a bit young for an 850 year old. to me the AOTC yoda was a bit more of what i would have been looking for. but there is no need to worry, that will probably be fixed for the re-release of the movie on DVD.

GNT
09-05-2004, 09:15 PM
It still has it's problems just like the OT has it's fair share of problems but it's not a really "bad" film like people claim it to be. It served it's purpose of introducing the characters to people watching the films in the correct order. I hope George does get around to fixing it after he completes ROTS with what I don't know but I'm sure he'll find a way to make it a better film that works better with AOTC and ROTS. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif Bring on the SETPM!

bjlevine
09-07-2004, 09:31 AM
In the wake of hurricane Frances, and our cable out, with three boys going stir-crazy, we spent a lot of time watching DVDs. On Sunday, my wife suggested watching TPM, and was booed down by all three of my kids. http://threads.rebelscum.com/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

TPM is mostly a vehicle for digital effects, something Lucas himself would've looked on with disdain a few years earlier. Its just not that exciting for an action movie, has no compelling characters (save Qui-Gon who is still somewhat dull), and presents aspects of Vader that no one needed to see.

Not a bad movie, just not up to SW standards. And as for just setting up characters and story, this is a pretty weak argument, as the same could have been done but still been a better story with more of a SW feel.

And that's my biggest problem with it: it just doesn't feel like SW.