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View Full Version : Jedi death....the mind/body problem



07-07-2002, 11:50 PM
hi, this is something that ive been wondering about lately and id be interested in your thoughts/input. PLEASE do NOT respond if you have any 'insider' type information or spoiler type stuff....i want to hear your ideas, not what some supergeek who is friends with george lucas's nephew told you...

now, when obi-wan kenobi 'dies' or 'leaves the physical realm, his body vanishes....it even appears that Vader's saber never actually touches him, but rather he dematerializes on his own will (knowing his future roll in luke's development)...

likewise, Yoda grows old and 'dies' of natural causes(at 900!)...he knows its his time and vanishes before luke's eyes.

now, in TPM, Qui Gon is impaled by maul but his body remains...they even burn it in a ceremony. likewise, many of the jedi who are killed in AOTC seem to have their bodies remain....why?

is this common knowledge? anyway ive never heard an explanation.....upon pondering, this is my theory:

Obi-wan and Yoda were old and highly advanced in their knowledge of the force...it seems that they "died" willingly. whereas Qui-Gon was killed against his will in battle. could it be that (in sort of a Zen Buddhist way) that, when it is the right course, a wise and highly advanced Jedi can will himself(or herself!) out of the physical realm and over to the other side?

Qui-Gon, though i love his character, had some flaws in his understanding of the force...atleast...somewhat...we know after AOTC that Qui-Gon was once Dooku's apprentice. so perhaps his premature death was the reason that his body did not dissappear.

what do you think? images/icons/cool.gif

again, please dont spoil anything about EP3....i absolutly HATE spoilers.

good-night friends,
G. Rod

Darth_Pot_Stirer
07-08-2002, 06:06 AM
Some good points, but I have one minor caveat. I don't think Qui-Gonn's status as an independently minded Jedi is what stopped him from disappearing. You stated that it was Obi-Wan and Yoda's choice to die by some other means than what was about to kill them (Vader and old age respectively). Maybe because Qui-Gonn wasn't expecting it, he couldn't do that.

07-08-2002, 11:22 AM
when obi wan and yoda died, they knew it was their time. when qui gon died, he wasnt ready to die. I think that has a lot to do with who disappears.

images/icons/smile.gif

Quigonbyebye
07-10-2002, 05:29 PM
Fear not! GL has promised an explanation in Ep3. It will probably not be common knowledge to all Jedi. And more than likely one closely guarded secret. Note Vader's reaction to Obi-Wan's disappearance. He is the right-hand-man for "hunting down and destroying the Jedi" and this was the first time he encountered it.

r2d2_26
07-13-2002, 03:10 AM
I don't know how much being prepared to die or the willingness to die has to do with their body's dissapearing when they (Obi-Wan and Yoda) die. There where a lot of jedi during the battle in Geonosis. They knew they were going to battle (remember Obi-Wan's message about the separatists' army), and therefore they must have been ready to fight and die if necessary.

Like some others have said, I believe it has to do more with how much the jedi have matured in their knowledge of the Force.

About Vader, I think he must have done a great deal of meditation after he saw Kenobi's body dissapear when he died. Maybe he figured something out that had not been taught to him when he was an apprentice. After all, he is the "chosen one". Probably his body dissapeared too, since we see Anakin with Yoda and Obi-Wan at the end of Ep.6.

07-14-2002, 02:38 PM
good points all around everyone...
in response to r2...

i think it could be different for all the jedis in the Geonosis battle because, yes, they knew they were entering battle with a chance of death, but they were still fighting for their lives and lost in combat. perhaps they didnt know, or it wasnt their time. obi-wan didnt actually get killed by vader, he saw luke, closed his eyes and allowed himself to go.

my feeling is that it does have to do with maturity and knowledge of the force....and that same maturity allows a jedi to know and be willing to "pass over" when the time is right...so its both of those things.....maybe images/icons/wink.gif

and about Vader, he did seem puzzled...and came back as a spirit at the end of ROTJ...very interesting. but also, i think it was Qui-Gon's voice that says "Anakin, Anakin, NO!" just as anakin begins to slaughter the Tuskens....so maybe the body dissappearing thing does not necessarily go hand in hand with being able to speak directly to the living and possibly appearing as a spirit(?)

very interesting indeed.

"you cant win darth, if you strike me down now i will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"

awesome!

r2d2_26
07-15-2002, 12:03 AM
I think there must be different levels of maturity with regards to the Force, as I stated earlier. I agree that it was Qui-Gon's voice that Yoda heard, although he didn't mention it to Mace, which puzzles me. Anyway, maybe Qui-Gon Jin somehow managed to reach a level of consciousness after death, but not the same as Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin did in the end, since we (and obviously the jedi) haven't seen Qui-Gon's luminous being. I figure Qui-Gon was almost there, but not quite, and that's probably why his body did not dissapear, in my opinion.
I do not think the jedi make themselves vanish, though. I think it is something that happens after certain jedi die. Yoda clearly died, since he could barely finish the words he was saying to Luke: "...another Sky..walk..er." Only immediately after his death did his body disappear. So, I don't think it was that Yoda used the Force to vanish, as he used the Force to do other things.

07-17-2002, 10:50 AM
NO..NO..NO..You're all wrong. Obi-Wan and Yoda dissapeared because...and here is the big secret...They both were apprentices to the great and masterful Jedi Houdini...LOL!

07-18-2002, 12:22 AM
hmmm...you had me for a second there ;-p
but didnt Jedi Houdini die because he failed to dissappear in time? oh the twisted irony.

Jedi_Mom_G
07-23-2002, 08:03 PM
In the novelization of AOTC during the "anakin ... No!" scene, Yoda is deeply contemplative about Qui-Gn being able to breach the span of death. i believe this is becuase up to now, no Jedi knew that death could be breached. At this point they didn't really know they could "just disappear into one with the Force". I think they all start to realize this as hundreds and hundreds of Jedi are now dying in the Clone Wars and need to help each other out

07-24-2002, 08:15 PM
wow. very cool insight Jedi Mom, thanks! it makes me tingly in anticipation for Episode III. images/icons/smile.gif it also makes me want to read the novelization.... overall , was it pretty well written?

jwickjedi
07-24-2002, 10:53 PM
Remember, Qui-Gon DOES do some sort of meditation as he is blocked within the energy beams......this could have been him preparing himself.......or just getting a good 2nd wind! images/icons/confused.gif