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Thread: Clones: Human Robots Or Not?

  1. #1
    Sith Lord Revanfan1's Avatar
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    Clones: Human Robots Or Not?

    I've been having the most...interesting...discussion over in the Saga Legends General Discussion thread. Apparently, there are quite a few people who are of the mind that the clones were never people, only mindless drones–wet droids, if you will, to use the phrase from the Republic Commando books. This is an issue for me. So, I have brought it here, to you.

    Clearly, TCW flat-out states, quite often, in fact, that the clones are human beings, with free will, no doubts about it. Given Slick, Cut Lawquane, and the like, I find it very hard to believe that anyone can still call the clones slaves. Even the clones who didn't desert–Rex and Fives, for example–clearly showed signs that they didn't just follow orders–just look what happened with Krell. Rex flatly stated that he was satisfied to fight the war; that's fine, but it still proves that it's his free will to fight, and he's not a mindless drone. Fives is dissatisfied with Krell, as are Hardcase and Jesse. Dogma, a younger and newer clone, obviously has no problem blindly following orders–but does this mean he doesn't have free will, or does it simply mean he is more strict in comparison to the free-thinkers of the 501st? It's like comparing Echo, a more by-the-book clone, to Hevy, a free-thinker.

    This brings up another point, too. The fellows in the SLGD thread stated that the clones have to follow orders hardwired into their brains, like a post-hypnotic suggestion-type thing. If you read Karen Traviss' books–and this part here can't include TCW, because there's nothing concrete there–there are no orders hard-wired in their brains, but they've got 150 contingency orders they have to remember–order number 66 being just one of them; the one which states that the Jedi have betrayed the Republic. The clones didn't kill the Jedi because they were mindless drones with a hidden brainwashing unlocked with the code "order 66," they did it because they believed the Jedi were traitors, that the Jedi had done exactly what the Separatists were trying to do. The clones felt betrayed. See this line from Commander Bacara:

    "I hesitated for a moment when I received Order 66 because the last thing I expected was a Jedi coup. Did I feel betrayed? You bet I did. I thought of all my men who died under Ki-Adi-Mundi's command, and if I'd known then that he and his buddies were gearing up to do the Separatists' work for them and overthrow the government, I'd have shot him as a traitor a lot earlier. He betrayed the trust of every one of us."
    ―CC-1138

    So, the clones obviously did feel betrayed and disgusted that the Jedi betrayed them. Now, for another question: why would the clones assume Palpatine was telling the truth? Simple: he was the Supreme Commander of the Grand Army, and the Chancellor of the Republic. Why would he lie to them? It would be the same thing if the Jedi had given the clones Order 65 (The Chancellor has betrayed the Republic); the clones wouldn't investigate it first; doing that might give Palpatine time to escape or do something harmful to the Republic. In the same way, if they'd paused to investigate Order 66, for all they knew the Jedi could overthrow the Republic in that time. Some say that the clones shooting old friends was very cold: this is true. But what if you were in a special forces unit and found out your commanding officer, who you were very clone to, was working undercover for a rival nation and planning to assassinate the President of your country? Could you kill him? It's the same thing here. There's only one difference: the clones were lied to. They might've even tried to arrest the Jedi instead of kill them (even Captain Maze tried to do this), but Order 66 specified killing the Jedi. Some clones disobeyed the order, yes. These were clones who let their friendships with the Jedi override their orders (in this case, it was a very good thing, because the Jedi were innocent; I'm totally not saying that it was a bad thing that any clone disobeyed Order 66).

    Anyways, long post short: just because the clones turned on and shot their commanders doesn't mean they were mindless slaves. Agree or disagree?
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    There's no way to prove or disprove either way...since its make pretend. We can't know the mind of a clone without asking Lucas.
    Last edited by Julythrunov; 08-24-2013 at 11:50 AM.
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    Moff EnigmaticOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julythrunov View Post
    There's no way to prove or disprove either way...since its make pretend. We can't know the mind of a clone without asking Lucas.
    I was thinking about the discussion last night. The other users only considered the films, while Revanfan1 used EU examples. Ultimately your absolutely right. Lucas would have the final say in the matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julythrunov View Post
    There's no way to prove or disprove either way...since its make pretend. We can't know the mind of a clone without asking Lucas.

    And we can't ask Lucas because he lost his mind when Marcia dumped him.
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    Sith Lord Revanfan1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaticOne View Post
    I was thinking about the discussion last night. The other users only considered the films, while Revanfan1 used EU examples. Ultimately your absolutely right. Lucas would have the final say in the matter.
    I don't trust Lucas' say anymore. He's loco. I remember somewhere he said that the dark side actually was stronger–directly contradicting his own writing in ESB. At this point I wouldn't trust Lucas' opinion about clones over Filoni's or Traviss'.
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    For me, I've discovered something disturbing about Star Wars. It's hard to put into words...but as time goes by my interest in Star Wars seems to be based around some..tough to pin point aspect of it. I know that before the prequels and the special editions it was less analyzed. It was vague and therefore more enjoyable. After watching the prequels, special editions. After learning of certain EU concepts and clone wars etc, and after learning of things Lucas has said in interviews, its become apparent that Star Wars doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's been been demystified. For me, Star Wars worked when it was small and more naive. It's been so explored and its become so large, it's flaws have become very exposed. Back in the early 1990's there was so little Star Wars I ate up anything Star Wars I could get my hands on. Heir to the Empire, Dark Empire comics, Shadows of the Empire, i collected old vintage figures, built an x wing model and falcon model. Watched the trilogy on VHS. When the figures hit in. 1995, I scooped them up and went hunting with my best friends, even between classes at college..followed by the special editions. I stood in line as one of the first 50, to get the Special Edition jedi Luke figure. I believe this is when we started to reach a turning point. While purist were upset with the SE changes...I didn't bother me but it didnt feel quite right. I reasoned "Lucas is a genius so if he says this makes sense..,we should trust him". When news of the prequels hit...I could not wait...I read every bit of news and subscribed to the Star Wars insider. I could not wait. Then it hit. I watched episode 1 I think 11 times...mostly trying to understand what happened. Then episode 2 hit. Saw it once opening night. Then episode 3 hit...saw it once about 2 weeks late. It's tough to put into words but I guess..for me less was more. The kid in me still hoped episode 7 will change or fix some of it. At some point tho...I realized...there is a very vague and small part of Star Wars that's mind blowingly amazing..somewhere between ANH-ESB-ROTJ...that has nothing to do with all this other "star wars" stuff. Sorry to go off topic. Revan's "I don't trust Lucas" comment got me thinking. I honestly feel like Lucas got lucky with some core elements and the rest of it is just nonsense.
    Last edited by Julythrunov; 08-24-2013 at 07:49 PM.
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  7. #7
    Emperor's Hand Gambit's Avatar
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    I prefer "wet droids". I love TCW but I've never liked the idea of giving clones too much personality and independent thought. They're superior to droids because of creative thinking. But it has to have limits. If you give them too much freedom then what makes them better than a volunteer or conscripted force? In ROTS you definitely get the sense of camaraderie between the clones and their generals, but in the end they answer to Palpatine. It makes it more tragic that way. Ultimately they have no choice and are yet another pawn to Sidious.
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    You say the clones were lied to but wasn't it Palpatines plan that if the Jedi were to discover the truth (that he is the Sith lord they were looking for) the Jedi had no other choice than to kill him and take over control of the senate in order to survive? So if the clones would have investigated they would find out that this was true.

    PS
    Quote Originally Posted by Revanfan1 View Post
    who you were very clone to
    Nice slip of the tongue BTW
    Last edited by darthdwight; 08-24-2013 at 11:44 PM.
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  9. #9
    Sith Lord Revanfan1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambit View Post
    I prefer "wet droids". I love TCW but I've never liked the idea of giving clones too much personality and independent thought. They're superior to droids because of creative thinking. But it has to have limits. If you give them too much freedom then what makes them better than a volunteer or conscripted force? In ROTS you definitely get the sense of camaraderie between the clones and their generals, but in the end they answer to Palpatine. It makes it more tragic that way. Ultimately they have no choice and are yet another pawn to Sidious.
    What makes them better than a volunteer or conscripted force is that there are 3 million of them ready right off the bat compared to the people of the galaxy who haven't seen a war in 1000 years and wouldn't know how to fight. The clones were trained from creation to fight, and they were ready to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by darthdwight View Post
    You say the clones were lied to but wasn't it Palpatines plan that if the Jedi were to discover the truth (that he is the Sith lord they were looking for) the Jedi had no other choice than to kill him and take over control of the senate in order to survive? So if the clones would have investigated they would find out that this was true.

    PS


    Nice slip of the tongue BTW
    If the Jedi had found out the truth earlier than they had, they could've told the clones that Palpatine was the one who was secretly leading the Separatists and ordered them to execute Order 65, which is arrest or kill the Chancellor because he's a traitor. This is shown in Luceno's book Labyrinth of Evil, in a way, with the clones helping the Jedi hunt down Sidious (before they knew he was Palpatine). If they'd walked in on Sidious and found that he was Palpatine, they wouldn't have time to question him before he Force-lightning-ed the lot of them; they'd have to shoot or die. In fact, this actually happens after the Jedi leave to help fight the Separatist forces on Coruscant. A Judicial Forces sergeant and a squad of clones find Sidious and open fire. Then they die. So, this alone proves that the clones are not only able, but willing to shoot Palpatine and follow the Jedi instead.

    PS,

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revanfan1 View Post
    I don't trust Lucas' say anymore. He's loco. I remember somewhere he said that the dark side actually was stronger–directly contradicting his own writing in ESB. At this point I wouldn't trust Lucas' opinion about clones over Filoni's or Traviss'.
    -As much as Lucas contradicts himself, I can definatly understand that opinion. Personally, if he would say something towards answering this discussion, I would treat it as a lot mor reliable than his, um, more interesting statements (i.e. Han ALWAYS shot first) Until then, I'll take his intimate involvment with TCW as a sign that it's depiction is his vision.
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