Empire post Battle of Endor

[CadBane]

So right now I'm watching star wars robot chicken 2 on adultswim and at the end they joke that the rebels had to kill the Emperor and blow up the Death Star in order to destroy the Empire. Although as pointed ourin this comedic dialogue they control countless planets and have an incredible army. So how could the rebels celebrate so pre maturely? Surely the remaining Imperials(even though this makes it sound like only a few are left when the truth is most are Alive) would launch an attack on the celebrating rebels.

[sinkie]

I think this question has been answered many times in multiple ways.

It was a pretty big victory so celebrating on one planet, as in the OOT, wasn't that illogical. In the SEs you get every planet suddenly becoming instantly "free" and that's not so realistic but whatever, that was an afterthought, not a part of the original "celebration".

I think you've got to look at it in part in terms of the inner logic of those films. That ending was in a way also a big party for the end of Star Wars itself. And I remember as a kid having the sense that the biggest hurdle had been overcome, anything else would seem to be child's play for this group and its most likely growing support network now that the head had been severed from the Empire and its Death Star program severely if not permanently set back. And just going out on a high note, rather than some "Well we did it but..." was probably in some ways the best way to go out, IMO. I'm not so sure also that an attack on the celebrating rebels would have been that realistic. Everything would have been pretty chaotic, with maybe the idea of retreating, regrouping and coming up with a plan the next best thing. Or go back to home systems to fortify? I don't know, I'm not a strategist, but the tone of that battle was that the Imperials were freaking out!

It's funny, because I was thinking of OT "ranks" this morning for some odd reason and realized part of the fun is trying to figure out, using your own imagination, what was going on behind the scenes in the Empire, like what that particular combination of items that make up that uniform mean. Whereas the PT seems much more focused on laying out the logic of rank amongst clones for example etc and is more about being in on the written in stone rules and regulations of the PT world. I think this goes along with that in some ways. The OT didn't suffer as much from a probably fan-driven need (because it was fresher and newer) for it to be all locked-in to make for authoritative wikipedia entries.

[Leif_G]

In the SEs you get every planet suddenly becoming instantly "free" and that's not so realistic but whatever, that was an afterthought, not a part of the original "celebration".

I suspect that scene was intended to show the eventual response to the death of the emperor, as each planet became aware of what had occurred. I don't think we were meant to assume that it was all actually occurring at that same moment. But that is what many people do assume. I think sometimes film makers, like technical writers that produce instruction booklets, forget that everything has to be spelled out for the average person, or they simply won't get it.

Leif

[sinkie]

But...as has been pointed out before on this subject, it breaks stylistically with the way in which time and editing operates in SW so it is quite easy to see it as automatically read as "meanwhile, at that same moment..." And this is not that people are dense, but because the film maker's decision to suddenly change it up at that moment at the end of 6 years and 6 hours of playing it straight does not give the audience a reason to expect it or be in a frame of mind to question it. In fact, going by the internal workings of those films, it MUST be read that way firstly and only questioned later as perhaps the ONLY instance of this sort of editing style in the entire OT (and pretty much the Saga until the end of ROTS anyway which is still fairly linear). That's the way those films present themselves, linear.

[Leif_G]

And this is not that people are dense, but because the film maker's decision to suddenly change it up at that moment at the end of 6 years and 6 hours of playing it straight does not give the audience a reason to expect it or be in a frame of mind to question it.

Yea, sure, I'd agree to that. You're a smart guy and perhaps you took it as all happening at that moment, even though if you stop and think about it, logic suggests its not happening all at the same time. But I do think its a small part failure of the film maker for not being more explicit, mixed with a greater portion of failure that people are making an assumption that the story unfolds in a single form. As an example... since many of the scenes unfold in 'real time' where one second of dialogue is actually one second of time passage, do we assume that the entire film unfolds in 'real time'? No. Do the fill makers need to tell us this explicitly? No. For instance, when Han et al are travelling to Bespin... we pretty much all understand that time is lapsing considerably, compared to say the unfolding of the Hoth battle scenes. How about a case where we see multiple story scenes unfold in sequence, such as Luke's Dagobah training, and Han & company going to Bespin. Could they not be occurring at the same time even though they are presented to us in sequence? I see no reason to assume they couldn't. In fact, I think its the way those scenes are cut back and forth that lets us know they are sort of occurring at the same time. The SE cut of the celebrations doesnt really do much to inform us in that same way. So people take it literally as 'at this same moment in time' which is another mistake, IMO. In fact, as we discussed in other thread, the meteorite scene is one exmple that seems to show us the same event twice, from different perspectives, suggesting that the audience is expected to be able to make that leap of reason, and that we should not assume the story is unfolding in linear fashion or in real time, all of the time.

Leif

[sinkie]

Definitely not all of the time no, of course not. And I do not think SW presents itself in real time, like the 24 series or something. But it definitely leads you to believe that things happen linearly, even if rather than go for a split screen option we can think cutting back and forth between different sets of characters happens simultaneously. Which is another reason I read the SE celebration scenes as "now" because again no forward in time, now back to the present ever happens and now that you mention it I did read it as "all these celebrations are happening at once, now, even though they must be presented one after the other". The only other example that might even come close is the one you point out about the meteroite. Which again, can be read as its the same probe droid, or like I realized I had been assuming for years, its another probe droid. But it is a good point that there may be other exceptions. I do however think that no one is in error for entering the game that seems to be being played "linear, sequential events". Audiences are good at that anyway, of trying to get the game and then going with it if it is done well or if it is something they've seen before. With SW, GL isn't reinventing the wheel and isn't "less" in error than the audience because we didn't get something, he failed the audiences expectations ultimately, or attempted to maneuver around them and his gambit did not succeed. And we can't be certain he doesn't mean that they are happening, somewhat unrealistically, simultaneously and in the present. SW is not an experimental work that asks you to stay on your toes and wait for those sorts of sudden shifts in narrative tone and style. But yes it definitely uses all the tricks of linear narrative and once the audience gets that instinctively, they go with it and enjoy the ride.

[Leif_G]

I think the bottom line for me is that it could only unfold one way logically. That is, it takes time for news of the emperor's death to spread throughout the galaxy, and thus the celebrations do not all take place immediately, or at exactly the same time. Since we see nothing to suggest things couldn't have unfolded that way in 'SW reality', it makes sense that we should assume 'what is logical' (realistic) over 'that which is illogical' (unrealistic). In other words, I don't think the reasonable explanation should be outweighed by our immediate expectations based on the mostly linear fashion of the story.

Its a bit like a story that at one single point in the storyline, it jumps back in time to show you a character that is already dead in the main body of the story. You don't necessarily have to be told explicitly 'two weeks ago'... you let logic dictate that you are viewing the past.

Leif

[sinkie]

For sure it is more logical. But stories and the experience of them are not necessarily guided by pure logic. You enter into the game they play and the conventions they utilize and you go with it. So in this case, you're being lead along a certain path and, from memory, you see the DS blow up and it starts to become a celebration and then we dissolve between various planets all whooping it up and then back to Endor. For me, as someone who feels they instinctively get the storytelling style of the OT, that read instantly as "all over the galaxy the people celebrate freedom now along with you the audience and the rebels on Endor". It did not read, "because of what you just saw, news will spread fast and over the next few days or weeks, this is what will happen". Again, logical or not, there is a part of the experience of engaging with a work on its own terms that dictates a sense of time and you expect a certain pattern or style to dominate and guide you. When it may intentionally switch gears, you'd better hope you do it in a way that brings the audience along with you and doesn't force them to say, wait, this makes no sense, or wait, maybe it does, if I assume this is a not-before-seen switch to a different use of time and editing. Ok, then it makes sense. But for me that is NOT the game one plays when watching a film, unless that is what the film is playing with, say a film like "Tree of Life" for example. That is a film that jumps around in time and even in subjective reality but it also tells you this is what it is doing through its own game, after you settle into it you get what it is trying to do. If GL had really wanted us to get that this is in the future (and I'm not convinced this is what he wanted at all) he should have put them after the main Ewok celebration. Sure, then we wouldn't end on the 3 spirits, but then it would have at least read more easily, though still not definitively, as post-Endor and therefore anytime from 1 minute to 1 year into the future.

[CadBane]

This is what actually happened Princes Leia went on RebelTwitter and wrote "lmao we killed the Emperor lol cause the Empire ain't got no swag. Go rebelllllsss!!!" seriously though the Empire or the remnants of it would attack Endor IMO. Yes the Empeor had his legion of best troops there but there are plenty of other troopers. I believe the Empire would have sent a few dozen Imperial walkers and wiped
Out the celebrating rebels. Even half a dozen tie bombers is all it really would have taken.

[Leif_G]

I believe the Empire would have sent a few dozen Imperial walkers and wiped
Out the celebrating rebels. Even half a dozen tie bombers is all it really would have taken.

I don't agree. Although there were certainly Imperials loyal to the emperor, I think the vast majority of the Imperial officers were simply career military men who were doing their job, and many would have even been relieved to be rid of the emperor and his Sith Lord. Some were probably ready to make a bid for power themselves, while others probably easily joined the rebellion after the emperor's death. Don't forget as well that the emperor was using his dark Force powers to essentially blind the Jedi council in the early days. So we don't know precisely what sort of 'hold' he may have had over the military (besides the clone 'Order 66') as well. When he died, a lot of things changed, some of them immediately, others more gradually. Besides these considerations, there's also the fact that many of the Imperials were from various systems across the galaxy, and their home system's politics would be probably be their guide after the collapse of The Empire. So if a formerly Imperial system joined the rebellion as a result of the emperor's death, likely many of the Imperials who were from that system would in turn follow suit. These sorts of changes can easily be seen in our own history, for instance, the political alignment of German occupied countries during WWII, throughout the German rise to power in Europe, and its collapse. Also, consider the general attitude among many of the generals & admirals we see in the first DS boardroom scene. It's pretty obvious even from that scene alone that there wasn't much of a sense of genuine loyalty to the emperor or Vader, on the part of the Imperial military leaders. Yes, they were all concerned with military domination and power, but not out of sheer loyalty to the emperor or Vader.

Also, we don't know the exact state of the Imperial and rebel fleets after the destruction of the second Death Star. Certainly DS's destruction would have impacted Imperial morale, and if they were being battered pretty hard by the rebel fleet, they very realistically would have been more concerned with escape then trying to suppress the small number of rebels on the ground.

Leif