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Thread: Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

  1. #631
    I am not saying THERE IS a subplot I'm saying there COULD BE a subplot.
    --> if somebody says "there COULD BE" an elephant on the lawn .. and I look, and I see no evidence, one way or the other, of an elephant on the lawn .. then we can safely conclude there is NO elephant on the lawn.

    unless you can quote things from TFA to refute the possibility of this theory it is all hyperbole to say "watch the film". I did, I still get these ideas every single time.... And if you can please state where you see the evidence using quotes/moments from the film that refute the possibility of anything like this theory being possible...

    you are citing the same logic which fueled the salem witch trials.

    "unless you can 'prove' that you are NOT a witch, then the possibility remains..."

    you can't prove a negative.



    the "theory" of evolution, is still just a theory (granted).. but it IS based on evidence. it is not based on a "lack-of-evidence-against-it".

    (by the same token I could say: "every time I stare at a photo of the planet Mars, I feel like the grass is probably purple on Mars. unless you can quote things from [the photo] to refute the possibility of this theory, it is all hyperbole to say "watch the [photo]". I did, I still get these ideas every single time.... ")

    the lack of evidence against your theory , does not 'support' your theory... it's actually just irrelevant. *shrug*

    a theory is only supported by evidence ; not by a "lack of evidence against it"
    Last edited by Cobalt60; 04-20-2017 at 06:06 PM.
    "Is there anyone on this ship, who even remotely, looks like Satan?" -- James Kirk, U.S.S. Enterprise.

  2. #632
    I meant there is no basis to solidify the theory other than by trying to fill the holes of the dangling elements. There is no basis to make a claim IT IS THERE. But there is room for it to be there down the road, possibly...again unless someone can point to something that was onscreen that disallows it.

    Oddly I've had this same conversation multiple time and never had to defend how to read dangling mysteries in a work of fiction before. I'm admitting we don't have enough to say this is what is happening but I'm certainly not seeing enough to eliminate it as possible.
    Last edited by sinkie; 04-20-2017 at 06:06 PM.
    "Through us, the cosmos gazes on itself, adores itself, breaks its own heart. Through us, matter stares slack-jawed at its own star-dusted countenance and knows, incredulously, that it knows." - Alan Moore

  3. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobalt60 View Post
    --> if somebody says "there COULD BE" an elephant on the lawn .. and I look, and I see no evidence, one way or the other, of an elephant on the lawn .. then we can safely conclude there is NO elephant on the lawn.




    you are citing the same logic which fueled the salem witch trials.

    "unless you can 'prove' that you are NOT a witch, then the possibility remains..."

    you can't prove a negative.



    the "theory" of evolution, is still just a theory (granted).. but it IS based on evidence. it is not based on a "lack-of-evidence-against-it".

    (by the same token I could say: "every time I stare at a photo of the planet Mars, I feel like the grass is probably purple on Mars. unless you can quote things from [the photo] to refute the possibility of this theory, it is all hyperbole to say "watch the [photo]". I did, I still get these ideas every single time.... ")

    the lack of evidence against your theory , does not 'support' your theory... it's actually just irrelevant. *shrug*

    a theory is only supported by evidence ; not by a "lack of evidence against it"
    Nope, it does not support but it does not eliminate it. And ultimately this is just a work of fiction. We're just riffing here, not putting a human being on trial.
    "Through us, the cosmos gazes on itself, adores itself, breaks its own heart. Through us, matter stares slack-jawed at its own star-dusted countenance and knows, incredulously, that it knows." - Alan Moore

  4. #634
    sinkie,

    Cobalt60 is making more sense than I, but it seems like you won't listen to reason.

    I can see only too reasons for this - you either don't get it or are just too stubborn to admit it. Neither of these is good, but I refuse to believe it is the former.

    You have stated several times that this is your "theory". I have heard it before and I don't know if you are the person who came up with it first or you simply agree with it. Either way, by your admission, it has no basis whatsoever.

    And again, I repeat that if you want to know the basis for how this "theory" contradicts everything in the film, then watch the movie. It is all there and no one here can explain it to you better than Abrams and Kasdan.

    If there is someone here who can explain it better than Abrams and Kasdan, then to that person I say "what are you doing wasting time here? go write a Star Wars movie"


    Quote Originally Posted by sinkie View Post
    Nope, it does not support but it does not eliminate it. And ultimately this is just a work of fiction. We're just riffing here, not putting a human being on trial.
    You still a basis for your argument. Otherwise it is just fan fiction.

    And do not "nope" Cobalt60 who clearly has more sense than either one of us.
    Last edited by Jaxxon; 04-20-2017 at 06:31 PM.

  5. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxxon View Post
    sinkie,

    Cobalt60 is making more sense than I, but it seems like you won't listen to reason.

    I can see only too reasons for this - you either don't get it or are just too stubborn to admit it. Neither of these is good, but I refuse to believe it is the former.

    You have stated several times that this is your "theory". I have heard it before and I don't know if you are the person who came up with it first or you simply agree with it. Either way, by your admission, it has no basis whatsoever.

    And again, I repeat that if you want to know the basis for how this "theory" contradicts everything in the film, then watch the movie. It is all there and no one here can explain it to you better than Abrams and Kasdan.

    If there is someone here who can explain it better than Abrams and Kasdan, then to that person I say "what are you doing wasting time here? go write a Star Wars movie"




    You still a basis for your argument. Otherwise it is just fan fiction.

    And do not "nope" Cobalt60 who clearly has more sense than either one of us.
    I'm stubborn.

    But mostly because I feel this conversation has spun out of control and we're now getting into the weird analogy territory that doesn't always help. I actually feel like we're not really getting each other and perhaps it is our terminology that is getting in the way. Or maybe one badly phrased argument has become a sticking point but it's now lost pages back!

    Anyway...

    Cobalt's analogy doesn't hold water in my opinion in this case. It may seem to, but it doesn't because we may be comparing things that are not really comparable. The Mars photo idea for example...doesn't work well because if you substitute in TFA as a film for the Mars photo it's as if he's suggesting that I have said something along the lines of "Every time I watch the film I think that Kylo Ren probably had superman underwear on under his costume". Ok, fine, there is no hint in the film that we should be concerned about the kind of underwear he has on but...go nuts if it's your thing Sinkie!

    But I'm not saying anything unprovoked like this. I'm provoked by that which has been left unclear in this particular work of fiction. I'm pointing ONLY at the elements of the story that are left unclear and that therefore could possibly lead us in any number of directions (some very much more standard and likely directions but possibly those that are less so). Speculating about where a story might go does not involve any sort of moral commitment like Cobalt is suggesting with his witch hunt analogy. I'm free to make massive mistakes and no one dies as a consequence! So being slightly whimsical and careless in such a case is far from getting it wrong in a life and death situation.

    If I was truly as thick as you are hoping I am not, I would probably be ranting and raving about how likely my possible scenario is to be THE ONE THAT WILL HAPPEN...yet I have repeatedly categorized it as less likely than most and not even one I necessarily want to see happen because of a fear it would not be done well.

    So I am not just making up stuff out of thin air. It is always provoked by something that was onscreen, shown or said. (and if I recall the way this all got started was because we did get another "odd" element to throw into the mix with the new teaser having Luke himself speak of ending the Jedi)

    Anyway, the more obvious example of elements that provoke speculation based on a lack of anything concrete is of course everything that teased us concerning Rey's lineage. That is an example of a more straightforward dangling plot point that is left to speculation (and is fuelled by elements presented in the film such as things the character says, visions she has, the way other characters react around her when they find out who she is or where she came from). We interpret these elements (some stronger/some weaker...some certain and direct, some less direct) even though they do not resolve themselves immediately, and perhaps will not until even the 3rd film in the trilogy.

    I am intrigued by Rey's lineage and speculate about it (is she a Skywalker? A kid of a former Jedi pupil of Luke's? Kylo's sister even? I have no idea but I still speculate about it and so far no one has died!)

    Then there is Snoke. People wonder all the time who he might be even though there is zero reason to based on anything in the film. There is no one in the film who says "I wonder who he really is?" or anyone who says anything cryptic like "I knew him before he was Snoke!" The most we get is Leia who mentions him as if perhaps she knew him...though she may just have heard of him especially since he led her son astray from what we can tell. But people still wonder since he is new, since we know nothing else about him. We are intrigued and this leads to us imagining possibilities (and if we're smart about it, never settling on one and attempting to defend it to the death).

    The elements I am more intrigued by are those that seem a bit more subtle (less direct but still unresolved - because in a work of fiction a negative space can be suggesting just as much a positive one - leaving out things can be a hint that there is something important being left unsaid for now around a particular plot point or character for example so by its negativity it provokes us to speculate). Of course we don't have Kylo saying out loud anything like "I'm playing the long game and have a secret plan!" But we do have only a small amount of info on why he went dark...so already we want to know more about this and can imagine all sorts of things. Then we have him speaking with Vader's helmet. We don't know how he got it or why he's even attracted to it. We can assume and guess but it is never explicitly stated so until we are clear on his motivations we can't truly know. Even when we "interpret" his speech to mean he wants to be a galaxy ruler using the dark side of the Force we're still "guilty" of interpretation and speculation because he does not explicitly state it. We're assuming so based on what we saw Vader do for the most part (but not solely!). We also don't know based on his phrasing what he means when he says he will finish what Vader started since he does not expand on it. As I have said numerous times here this may or may not be intentional on the part of the writers. We won't know until the other films come out. If in the Last Jedi and beyond Kylo basically just tries really hard to rule the galaxy and destroy any chance of the Jedi coming back, then we know the writers meant exactly that with that line in TFA. If anything else happens that deviates from a plot like that? Like he rules the galaxy, kills Snoke and then declares himself the ruler of the galaxy, then maybe that's what he saw (and the writer's meant) Vader had started (because he is including the killing of Palpatine in what Vader "started"). Or perhaps he means something more elaborate such as the notion that he thinks Vader in his entire arc, including his act of redemption, ended up coming close to ending the use of the Force in a tyrannical way (like it was Vader's destiny but it did not get fulfilled...there is still all the balance stuff that has yet to be fully worked out!) and Kylo has, in examining this idea, realized the Skywalkers being in existence may be a part of the problem that leads always to the possibility of tyranny through the Force arising again. So he's going to finish perhaps what Vader started but did not even himself realize he started and would have needed to push further to really achieve a goal of peace and a lack of super powered elements in the galaxy. Maybe, it's fun for me to speculate on it, I hope no witches end up dying because of it...

    Anyway, I will try to summarize my position as clearly as I can and then I'm done trying to argue.

    I do not think I'm bound to be right about my theory. Probably calling it a theory might even have got us on the wrong track. It is speculation based on what very little we know of Kylo's past and what got him on this path. If my speculation were to be close to what we end up getting as his motivations/backstory, it would be purely based on my own imagination getting lucky (or whatever is at work when several different people end up having the same idea). It would be me getting inspired by a lack of the direct presentation of backstory and just by chance having had the same ideas as the writers. Because in the case of Kylo there is very little onscreen to piece together to get a clear and precise picture of what happened and therefore what is the ongoing thought process of Kylo. There is of course the picture of a conflicted wanna-be-Vader who seems to want to go darker and hates the Jedi but we don't really know why. So there is this facade that may or may not hide something more and that in the films presentation is somewhat subverted by the lack of clarity/explicitness in a handful of moments. There is nothing in the film directly stated that would suggest it will pan out. Just as there is nothing that would suggest that Snoke is Darth Plagius...but it could be true and if so those who've speculated he might be merely got lucky by having the same idea as the writers because he could really be anybody (or nobody we've ever heard of) at this point.
    Last edited by sinkie; 04-20-2017 at 08:21 PM.
    "Through us, the cosmos gazes on itself, adores itself, breaks its own heart. Through us, matter stares slack-jawed at its own star-dusted countenance and knows, incredulously, that it knows." - Alan Moore

  6. #636
    Color me completely lost.
    Wanted: 6" Black Series Death Trooper Specialist.

    "I mean, really, how many times will you look under Jabba's manboobs?" - bkusna

  7. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by sinkie View Post
    I'm stubborn.

    But mostly because I feel this conversation has spun out of control and we're now getting into the weird analogy territory that doesn't always help. I actually feel like we're not really getting each other and perhaps it is our terminology that is getting in the way. Or maybe one badly phrased argument has become a sticking point but it's now lost pages back!

    Anyway...

    Cobalt's analogy doesn't hold water in my opinion in this case. It may seem to, but it doesn't because we may be comparing things that are not really comparable. The Mars photo idea for example...doesn't work well because if you substitute in TFA as a film for the Mars photo it's as if he's suggesting that I have said something along the lines of "Every time I watch the film I think that Kylo Ren probably had superman underwear on under his costume". Ok, fine, there is no hint in the film that we should be concerned about the kind of underwear he has on but...go nuts if it's your thing Sinkie!
    So you admit you are just being stubborn. And furthermore, you admit you are just stubborn just because the conversation has gone out of your control?

    And yet you continue to argue the point? Plus, it is you who is creating the very large posts and no one else.

    So what exactly is the point of all of this?

    And this desperate scramble to deny the pure logic of Coblt60's purest logic and common sense is just mind blowing.

    The thread of conversation has me think of people I know who simply coin to argue in the hope that the other person will just give up. It seems to me that you simply want to have the last word no matter what, but the last word means absolutely nothing.

    You put forward an old "theory". I responded by saying that this "theory" contradicts everything in the film. You asked me to prove it and I told you no one can explain it better than the writers and it is al in the movie. You them admit that you have no basis at all for the "theory" and when Cobalt60 introduces good common sense you then confess that you are just being stubborn.

    There is no sense or meaning in any of this.

    And no one is trying to stop you having fun by speculating. You can do it all you like. I only pointed out how that particular note doesn't work.

    All that has occurred since then was just nonsense.

  8. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Kooshmeister View Post
    Color me completely lost.
    It was a path you should never have taken.

    Go back!!! Go back!!!!


  9. #639
    Oh, believe me, I'm bailing out of this madhouse!
    Wanted: 6" Black Series Death Trooper Specialist.

    "I mean, really, how many times will you look under Jabba's manboobs?" - bkusna

  10. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxxon View Post
    And no one is trying to stop you having fun by speculating. You can do it all you like. I only pointed out how that particular note doesn't work.
    No you didn't.

    But I'm done.

    Have fun!
    "Through us, the cosmos gazes on itself, adores itself, breaks its own heart. Through us, matter stares slack-jawed at its own star-dusted countenance and knows, incredulously, that it knows." - Alan Moore

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